Ancient and ArchaeologyÌý permalink
The relevance of 7
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Andrew Sprott (U10741596) on Sunday, 30th December 2007
Has anybody noticed how the number seven has become systemic throughout our history?
The seven seas.
The seven deadly sins and the seven virtues.
The seven churches.
The seven daughters of Atlas in the Pleiades.
The seven ages of man.
The seven levels of hell.
The seven primary colors [the splitting of light?].
The seven notes of the musical scale.
The seven days of the week.
***
I don't believe anything that anybody has ever communicated to me by whatever medium what had happened in history.
It does not matter because to me history is full of crap and I seriously don't believe that anything has ever been achieved.
And look where we are now! Global warming has become irreversable and there is no plan B.
***
The number 7 has great significance to our minds at the present time. You should read the following paper to better understand the situation that the human race is in at the moment...
The problem you face is this; the more information overload that one gets, the more the mind has to 'estimate' what the truth of the information is.
Eventually, the judgements you make cross the border from truth to illusion and if all of the nonsense that is taking place all around us, in particular television, you will accept the judgement you make.
Muscipula -
Message 2
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 30th December 2007
Hi muscipula,
Don't forget the 'Seven against Thebes'! But actually there are quite a few tens:
Ten commandments
Ten missing tribes of Israel
Ten Downing Street
The ‘top ten’ pop music hits etc
Ten fingers
Powers of ten
As you appreciate your approach does seem rather profoundly pessimistic. Your approach to the past has been described as radical relativism - the idea that all our ideas are equally valid interpretation. I don't share this approach, I believe that there is a 'real' past that can be approached but not reached. I think a useful approach might be to stop trying to believe anything you're told about history, but to conduct your own historical research: family history perhaps, or your community or occupation. There is something about primary sources that are very compelling.
As for Global Warning - well one of the nice things about natural selection is that climate change is bound to suit something - dragonflies would be nice, or iguanas, or even the Venus Flytrap!
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 3
Posted by U10731780 (U10731780) on Sunday, 30th December 2007
Hi
Can`t help adding -
Four seasons
Four horsemen
Four points of the compass
Four elements (sun,wind,rain,earth)
Looking for patterns can become obsessive, and it would be very neat if everything had a mathematical explanation. However, I think the connections that are important are `cause and effect`. History happens like a domino run - we can look back and say "that happened because of this" and so on, until we reach the present.
And as for global warming, lets hope its not the last domino in the row!
R U -
Message 4
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 2nd January 2008
While we're discussing the relevance of numbers in history let's not forget the noble "half"!
The Boston Tea Party, for example, was perpetrated by Bostonians "half out of their skulls", as indeed were most military encounters prior to the introduction of professional armies (and later, in Russia). Nearly every single philosopher of historical note is famous for being "half right" (they can't all be right, can they). Light Brigades were renowned for measuring suicide runs in units of "half a league" and while Shakespeare doesn't record it there is considerable certainty that King Richard III had lowered his offer to "half a bloody horse, then!" before copping it at Bosworth. The only negative I can think of are the pyramids in Egypt, which "aren't half impressive".
I don't think there is any truth in the rumour that the number represents George W's IQ, though it does indeed represent the length of time in seconds that he spent planning an exit strategy from Iraq. -
Message 5
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Wednesday, 2nd January 2008
It is not even half impressive, when you see one knows nothing about the rational numbers, that starts from one, and give himself the right to talk, at least, on the meanings of some rational numbers; the pyramids of Egypt are laughing on him.
-
Message 6
Posted by Mick_mac (U2874010) on Thursday, 3rd January 2008
Muscipula,
Has anybody noticed how the number seven has become systemic throughout our history?Ìý
What about 12?
12 apostles
12 days of christmas
12 pence in a shilling
And what about the number 3?
3 blind mice.
3 coins in a fountain
3 wise men
3 in 1 cleaning fluid
the 3rd man
triumvirate
a play in 3 acts
Richard III
And the number 2?
2 up, 2 down
Ö÷²¥´óÐã 2
Jaws 2
2 in the bush is worse than 1 in the hand
2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 legs, 2 hands, 2 arms,
2 is company, 3 is a crowd
do you wanna buy a 2?
a game of 2 halves
I don't believe anything that anybody has ever communicated to me by whatever medium what had happened in historyÌý
I suppose that goes for this messageboard and all of these posts, 2. Its a case of information overload, I suppose.
Hossam,
... when you see one knows nothing about the rational numbers, that starts from one ... Ìý
If i read this correctly then that is news to me! There are as many rational numbers less than 1 as there are greater than 1, so they cannot begin with 1. I think you mean the natural numbers. -
Message 7
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Thursday, 3rd January 2008
Mick,
This thread is only on the natural numbers and not on rational numbers.
I/2 is a rational number; and today rational numbers start downwards from 1, if you screeched on 0.999=1 in the web you will find it.
However, from the ancient Egyptian point of view 999/1000 do not equal 1; for more information read my discussion on: Ahmes Code, Arithmetic Operations, in the Math Forum following this link:
Or in the Math History list Archive, in August, 2007, following this link:
-
Message 8
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Thursday, 3rd January 2008
Mich,
The correct link is:
If it does not work, then read one of my messages there.
===============================================
Milo,
Thanks for your excellent comments.
As I have showed you in a pervious message, the architectonic decomposition of 0.111 or 111/1000 is 1/12 + 1/40 + 1/375; any other decomposition possibilities, including 1/10 + 1/100 + 1/1000, do not meet the architectonic criteria.
My question concerning the decomposition of 0.111 has two folds. Firstly, it hints to the difference between the decimal system and the fraction system (or as I call it the architectonic system of numbers). As you know, 111/1000 do not equal 111/999, thus, the ancient Egyptians mathematicians would have never approximate it to 1/9, as some have done that in these days under the umbrella of the decimal system. That would be always the case even if we increased it to 0.1111 (1111/10000) or more (your analyses, based on multiplying the fraction by 3/3, would show the same) and that is the difference between the two systems, i.e., there are no approximation under the umbrella of the fraction system in general.
Secondly, it may lead you to identify the primitive but the architectonic unified rule for decomposing any fraction. You can try also, the analyses of the decomposition of 0.333 or 333/1000; as you know, it is not equal to 333/999 or 1/3. Are you going to multiply it by 3/3, or you will use other way, in order to get its architectonic decomposition, which is 1/4, 1/16, 1/80, 1/125.
I would like to thank you for your email concerning, as you said: "? the modern conversion of 4/n to a 3-term Egyptian fraction series, the so-called Erdos-Straus solution.." and showing me the link to its Wikipedia article:
I have enjoyed reading this article as well as your comments in that email, however I noticed that the decomposition of the fraction 4/1801, in that article do not meet the architectonic criteria; it was decomposed to 1/451, 1/295364, 1/3249004. If you asked me, what is the best architectonic decomposition of the fraction 4/1801? I would say it is 1/456, 1/43224, 1/205314.
Best Regards
Hossam Aboulfotouh -
Message 9
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Muscipula, there is also the seven skies/heavens and the seven angels. The seven notes of the musical scale are part of the twelve half tones of the musical octave.
What about 13, who likes it? -
Message 10
Posted by Alaric the Goth (U1826823) on Monday, 21st January 2008
The Jewish Kabala system of assigning meaning to numbers saw seven as the perfect number, if I recall correctly (I used to be a bit too interested in this area). The Bible features it a lot: as pointed out ‘seven heavens’, but also ‘sevenfold spirit of God’. Three was also a significant number.
This fed through into the New Testament (Book of Revelation, the last book in the Bible). 777 would be a perfect number, and therefore 666 (each digit one away from the ‘perfect’) is, by contrast, a very ‘imperfect’ one, besides the other possible meanings (e.g. it has been argued that it stands for the Emperor Nero, as his full name, would add up to it if those letters that are Roman numerals were added up). -
Message 11
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Wednesday, 23rd January 2008
In the Revelation to John there are numbers like: 24, 4, 7,10, and 12*12; and you can not change the 666; John did know its alphabetical interpretation, i.e., 777 do mean other thing.
-
Message 12
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 23rd January 2008
ha - but how about 1 to 12
I'll sing you twelve, O
Green grow the rushes, O
What are your twelve, O?
Twelve for the twelve Apostles ,
Eleven for the eleven who went to heaven,
Ten for the ten commandments,
Nine for the nine bright shiners,
Eight for the eight bold rangers,
Seven for the seven stars in the sky
Six for the six proud walkers,
Five for the symbols at your door,
Four for the Gospel makers,
Three, three, the rivals,
Two, two, lily-white boys,
Clothed all in green, O
One is one and all alone
And evermore shall be
no number bias lol
st -
Message 13
Posted by glen berro (U8860283) on Wednesday, 23rd January 2008
stalteriisok
Looking at your last post i notice that, in the lines beginning from ten to seven, the word "the" makes a line which points directly at my right foot.
Amazing!!
glen -
Message 14
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Wednesday, 23rd January 2008
Re12: If your minde did inter the land of the zero-base-architectonic-demanders, there exist signs, when you look at any of them, you will read: sometimes, the direction of motion of the architectonic demander are reverted if he was not able to control it, leading him to the domain of uncertainty (the zero-base-architectonic- demander), and accordingly he starts to complain using all sorts of skepticism, based on what was already stored in his mortal memory, and end up with some conclusions that are completely opposite to the architectonic cosmic truth.
I suggest that you continue laughing for ever. -
Message 15
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 23rd January 2008
Glen, the "for" just to the left of the "the" is heading for mine!
Weird!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -
Message 16
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Wednesday, 23rd January 2008
They're Ley Lines, obviously. (vide Watkins, passim.)
-
Message 17
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Thursday, 24th January 2008
Are there not some 'deeply knowledgeable' practitioners of Numerancy about in the world even now.
Isn't there a freak religious group? -
Message 18
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Thursday, 24th January 2008
Looking at the research on AI (Artificial intelligence) with reference to Scrabble a few days ago, I am convinced that AI endeavours to do the same as reported in the above URL from China.
I am NOT convinced by either of them! -
Message 19
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Thursday, 24th January 2008
I have still not got the search term right as 'Numerancy' converts every time to 'numeracy'.
I am thinking of the fictional numerical values that some people apply to every number in the Christian Bible, and that particular belief.
It would clarify the meaning of Abdoulos original remarks. -
Message 20
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 24th January 2008
Hi Dai,
It would clarify the meaning of Abdoulos original remarks.Ìý
You'll find that Hossam's posts immediately make a lot more sense if you read them aloud in the style of the late, great Stanley Unwin. Try it and see understand exactly what I mean.
But the plain truth is that we may have a star in our midst, as I have irrefutable evidence that Hossam is none other than that vampire from Sesame Street - "The Count". For example, this post of his:
In the Revelation to John there are numbers like: 24, 4, 7,10, and 12*12; and you can not change the 666; John did know its alphabetical interpretation, i.e., 777 do mean other thing.Ìý
Should actually read:
In the Revelation to John there are numbers like: 24 HA-HA-HA! 4 HA-HA-HA! 7 HA-HA-HA! 10 HA-HA-HA! and 12*12 HA-HA-HA! and you can not change the 666 HA-HA-HA!; John did know its alphabetical interpretation, i.e., 777 HA-HA-HA! do mean other thing.
I vant to drinks your blood.Ìý
Cheers,
RF -
Message 21
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Thursday, 24th January 2008
Abdoulo's links seem quite serious.
I think the term may be biblical numerology.
Numerologists not really being numera(n)tists at all.
I may still be wrong! -
Message 22
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Thursday, 24th January 2008
Jehovah's Witness founder who translated the bible without looking at the original Latin/GreekHebrew was also very interested in the Pyramids.
It is the only thing about Islam that the JW are prepared to consider....!
So if you don't want to be pestered by them you just have to say "Muslims!".
It works like magic. -
Message 23
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Thursday, 24th January 2008
but glenn - if u slightly moved ur foot - u would find the "the" would follow the foot movement - spooky !!!
jak
isnt it strange how the verses go down from 12 to 1 and upwards from 1 to 12 ??
st (lol) -
Message 24
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Thursday, 24th January 2008
By Jupiter! You are correct.
And getting back to the number 7, what about:
The Seven Dwarfs (dwarves?)
The Seventh Seal
Seven Brides for Seven Brothers
Seven Samurai
The Seven Little Foys
The Seventh Cavalry
and, the imbibing of which would let us, like Holmes, see the significance much more clearly -
The Seven Percent Solution. -
Message 25
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Friday, 25th January 2008
A little encouragement for jak!
He seems to be interested in the mystical/magic aspect of numerology. -
Message 26
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Friday, 25th January 2008
Even closer to his chosen subject!
Keep talking;it is quite an amusing way for somebody interested in the Bible AND number, to learn the holy book. -
Message 27
Posted by glen berro (U8860283) on Friday, 25th January 2008
Re12: If your minde did inter the land of the zero-base-architectonic-demanders, there exist signs, when you look at any of them, you will read: sometimes, the direction of motion of the architectonic demander are reverted if he was not able to control it, leading him to the domain of uncertainty (the zero-base-architectonic- demander), and accordingly he starts to complain using all sorts of skepticism, based on what was already stored in his mortal memory, and end up with some conclusions that are completely opposite to the architectonic cosmic truth.
Ìý
I suggest that you continue laughing for ever.Ìý
Hossam
i am, and can hardly stop
Thanks
glen -
Message 28
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 25th January 2008
Hi Dai,
hmmm... At the bottom of the page of your second link, you'll find the article has been put in the following categories by Wikipedia:
Wikipedia articles needing rewrite
Religion articles needing expert attention
Articles needing expert attention
Pages needing expert attentionÌý
Another character extremely interested in numerology was that Matt Lucas look-a-like - Aleister Crowley. You can find his works in "777 And Other Qabalistic Writings Of Aleister Crowley, Including Gemetria & Sepher Sephiroth".
Personally, I don't find it much more than a great (and admittedly not particularly effective) method for picking my lottery numbers.
Cheers,
RF -
Message 29
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Friday, 25th January 2008
Ooh - thanks Dai!
A relative of mine suddenly realised that the she had 13 letters in her name, whereupon she added another letter. She lived to be 85 (8+5=13!) and made lots of money. Weird, eh?
Now to get out the street map of London and plot more Ley Lines. -
Message 30
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 25th January 2008
And the amazing thing, Jak, is that Ley Street in Ilford isn't on any of them!
-
Message 31
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 25th January 2008
Hi Nordmann,
So this numerology and name malarkey - is it any related in any way to scrabble?
I'll try to remember to bring that Crowley book of mumbo-numbero-jumbo in next week so we can play qabbalistic bingo in the History Bar. Just think of the fun, excitement and architechtonic otherworldiness we could have!
Key-to-the-door, the mystic number of Tiphareth - 21,
9-and-1 the archangel of Geburah - 91,
7-and-5 Lucifer, the Herald Star - 75,
On-its-own, the mystic number of Binah - 6...Ìý
Cheers,
RF -
Message 32
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 25th January 2008
The mystical number of Binah is always Triple Score since it appears in the configuration of the sefirot at the top of the left axis, and corresponds in the tzelem Elokim to the left hemisphere of the brain.
-
Message 33
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Friday, 25th January 2008
One can think about King Solomon's Holy Number; its alphabetical interpretation is mentioned in ancient books.
-
Message 34
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Friday, 25th January 2008
Thanks v much, Nordmann! Ilford's LEY Street must be significant, it's just that we can't see it because we are too blinded with cynicism and arrogance.
I shall obtain a map of Ilford and try to solve it. It MUST line up with something. An old church maybe, or a crossroads, a railway junction, a TCB, the North Pole?
"More things in heaven & earth..." etc etc. -
Message 35
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Friday, 25th January 2008
aha
there are actually proven ley lines in Ilford and the magic number is 5
in any street there are 5 unmarried mothers
there are 5 women dating gangsters
there are 5 males serving time
and there are 5ft between Jodie Marshes toes at 11.30 0n a saturday night
amazing !!!
st -
Message 36
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Saturday, 26th January 2008
Stalteriisok: Her majesty 7, sent a message asking you, about the number of your fingers, are they 7 in your world? Do not say 5, she will be very angry.
-
Message 37
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Saturday, 26th January 2008
hassam
7 fingers ?? - of course - hasnt everyone - lol -
Message 38
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Sunday, 27th January 2008
In your message 35, you did mention some 5s whitout saying any thing on your first 5, i.e., the number of your fingers, the 5.
-
Message 39
Posted by Andrew Host (U1683626) on Monday, 28th January 2008
Hi All,
I think there is probably, *probably*, an interesting discussion to be had here on the significance given to certain numbers in various ancient cultures.
If however you don't see potential in this perhaps it's best to move on as this is getting rather off-topic.
If someone wants to take up the baton of serious discussion on this then go for it. Closing threads is a depressing activity!
Cheers
Andrew -
Message 40
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 28th January 2008
Each of the numbers 1,2,& 3 divide 6, and when you add them together the product is 6, thus 6 is perfect number. Similarly, the number 28 is also a perfect. According to this limited approach, the mathematicians did find only 32 perfect numbers.
This link would show you different approach. And sorry if it is unclear.
-
Message 41
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
-
Message 42
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 28th January 2008
I like this article on the perfect numbers
-
Message 43
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Monday, 28th January 2008
Andrew is saying we have got to stick to number AND
its involvement in ancient and Archaelogy which
Abdul seems to be doing so i will press on as the subject can be very interesting indeed with the right people to discuss it.
Perfect numbers were studied by Pythagoras and his followers, more for their mystical properties than for their number theoretic propertiesÌý
From Abdoul's link we see that mystical property and theoretical property were the same thing. The terms "Mystical" and "theoretical" may actually amount to the same meanings in the sense of "theological"
Mysticism was obscured from reality; theory was obscured from practical reality, and theology was also obscured/not revealed to the practical man, only the one who studied these theories, like Pythag! -
Message 44
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
-
Message 45
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 28th January 2008
Dai, if you cannot write my name in correct way, when you refer to me you can copy and paste it "Aboulfotouh", or do not write any thing at all.
Are you mathematician? -
Message 46
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 28th January 2008
A man who truncates Pythagoras to Pythag is capable of anything Aboulfotouh!
Getting back to history (as opposed to mathematics), and in light of your own claims that a mathematical understanding underpinned the design of the Egyptian pyramids, how do you account for the decline and disappearance of this knowledge from Egyptian society as time went on?
Normally the loss of a body of knowledge of such magnitude, complexity and importance is accompanied by the aggressive and wilful destruction of the civilization that created it. Yet we are led to believe from the evidence that Egyptian society managed to evolve pretty much free from such destructive aggression from without right up until Alexander (fairly "late" in Egyptian terms). And even then there is no evidence of any attempt to obliterate Egyptian culture, simply absorb it. Rome - despite the little "accident" in Alexandria - largely followed this trend. And in any event the era of great pyramid building was long over before the arrival of either.
Was there a period - almost like the Luddites multiplied to a huge degree - when the intelligentsia in Egypt were targeted by elements from within the culture itself?
Or of course it might be that your claims on the intelligentsia's behalf are a little exaggerated. -
Message 47
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 28th January 2008
That was excellent post Nordmann, let me read it again.
-
Message 48
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 28th January 2008
Nordmann you are touching the core issue here, i.e., what causes the development and decline of knowledge, ideology and utopia of cultures, societies and/or civilizations. One cannot be sure on the shape of the profile-chart (on XY) to interpreting the above scenario, whether it was flat, fluctuated or regressive from the time of the pyramids builders till for example the days of Alexander, because if we compared the construction industry in all of these periods, we may not see any difference, all of them did use the megalithic construction techniques; the earlier societies used it in pyramids and temples, but later on the pyramids disappeared, and that dose not imply they lost the construction knowledge; because for example, imagine how the new kingdom's architects made the obelisk. In the 19th century, the best French engineer, took 6 years to only transfer one obelisk from Loxsor to Paris; imagine the time that he would have taken if he created it from the beginning (from Aswan mountains as one piece).
Concerning the apparent decline in the field of mathematics, this is very interesting issue.
Let me show you something in the coming message, on the story of Euclid that was omitted from the introductory part of the book of the Elements, during its translation from its Arabic version into the Latin version. And because of this omission one cannot tell what the nationality of Euclid was; and that is related to the thread on Bibliotheca Alexandrina. -
Message 49
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 28th January 2008
You could even argue that the construction methods improved through that time as new materials and the benefits of cross-cultural education in that regard became available.
Yet your hypothesis suffers if that is true then. One would have assumed that improvements in techniques would have afforded such super intelligent mathematician/architects the opportunity to code even more complex data into their creations whereas there is no evidence at all that they did. So what happened?
We do know that many of the abilities you have credited the pyramid builders with in terms of calculatory prowess did not find expression again until the flowering of Arabian mathematics (with heavy reliance on Indian input) in the early middle ages, a period of millennia from when you claim they were not only expressively appreciated but practically applied architecturally.
So - was there a cultural "shift" that effectively outlawed such knowledge in Egypt? Was it that they just "tired" of being so clever and voluntarily regressed? What was the catalyst for such a monumental (pardon the pun) step backwards, one that would take a few thousand years to redress?
I have to say that it simply does not make sense to me. -
Message 50
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Friday, 1st February 2008
Imagine if earth remained with one language, one system of writing, and one of every changing system in life, from the dawn of the word past, till now. I wonder to know the affect of the future changes (concerning any and all of things) on the development or the decline of any society. Edmund Burke, said once "change is the most constant thing in life," was he right when he said so.
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or Ìýto take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Ö÷²¥´óÐã iD
Ö÷²¥´óÐã navigation
Ö÷²¥´óÐã links
Ö÷²¥´óÐã © 2014 The Ö÷²¥´óÐã is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.