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Tribalism - ancient and modern

• Message 1. 

  Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Saturday, 12th January 2008

  Being in reflective mood about the current effects of tribalism in Kenya and Pakistan, I have wondered about ancient times.
  Did the Pax Romana (?) eventually eradicate tribal loyalties in Gaul and England? I know of no reference to them.
  The British Empire rulers on the other hand tended to foster tribal chiefs, bestowing on the loyal ones all manner of benefits and titles. I may be wrong, but possibly B. Bhutto had a titled 'Sir' among her ancestors.
  
  Some learned opinion would be appreciated,
  Regards, P.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Monday, 14th January 2008

  Is this of no interest to anyone? Should I move it to the Hub or just get back in my dark corner for more reflection? Pass the port and tissues, please.
  
  P.

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 14th January 2008

  The Romans tried all sorts of "solutions" to keep control of territories deemed important. They "rented" goodwill, they installed puppet regimes, they destabilised areas by sponsoring civil war, they invaded and took over administration by outlawing or deeming irrelevant all previous "tribal" allegiances, and they even on occasion invaded and took over administration by eliminating the "tribes" themselves.
  
  In other words they behaved just like Britain later.

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• Message 4

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  Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Monday, 14th January 2008

  Hi Priscilla,
  
  By my understanding of it the Romans pretty much took over the tribal system and either demoted or promoted the postition oftribal cheiftain to magistrates. Once the Romans leave the Tribal system is still there and pretty much seems to carry on as before, well if you belive Gildas they seem to have spent as much time fighting each other as the Saxons( anyone else think Gildas would have a job writing forthe Daily Mail if he got himself re incarnated)
  
  If you look at some of the Colonies before the withdrawl from the Empire. While there was a danger of the duty battalion haring up the main road and shooting some sense into them theres is little in the way of intertribal violence. It doesnt vanish, its mostly just small scale.
  
  Once the Garrison has gone though. Its business as usual and where did I put my machete.
  
  We, the British pretty much just copied the Romans. One of the benifits of a classical education I suppose.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 14th January 2008

  Hi Priscilla,
  
  In the case of Roman Britain this is very difficult to answer. The was a school of thought that the Romans suppressed, but did not eradicate, Iron Age tribal loyalties. These same loyalties then sprang back into action in the immediate post-Roman period to form the nucleus of British successor states. I find it rather hard to imagine that degree of continuity existing in a tribal society myself. The truth is probably that we don't have sufficient evidence to decide one way or another.
  
  Best wishes,
  
  TP

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Monday, 14th January 2008

  And what of Gaul? Possibly there is a record there about sustained tribal identities. Come to that, did the Romans ever leave Gaul - or did they just fade away?
  
  I know more of the subcontinent than Africa. I am currently reading the diaries of an officer with the 40th Pathan Regiment; the Afghan campaign circa 1902- 20 and could have related to current events so familiar were the tribal names and tactics.
  
  There was in England a point when the tribal identity faded - not so Scotland and Ireland. And what of Wales?
  
  A better understanding of tribalism is necessary - hence the long reflection on it; after many years of living close to an assortment of allegencies it still baffles me. i am still unsure how individuals rate their own order of them either. Most evade answering that one.... and one has to be careful how one approaches it in the first place.
  Much easier in Essex - everyone seems to relate to a tribal football team first, religion and nationality also coming behind favoured music.

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Monday, 14th January 2008

  I forgot to thank all of you who gave an opinion. I am not a good burrah memsahib in several respects.
  
  Regards P.

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