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Metal Detectorists - word as used on Time team

• Message 1. 

  Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Sunday, 8th February 2009

  The recent hyped up dig on the secret Yorkshire acres where a Viking burial was sought raised questions about the metal detectorists. We were told that there are 50 000 of them rooting out invaluable clues to our collective past. What is fond is then usually sold on and no record given to local historians. I was saddened by this. Time Team opened up eyes to possibilty and many soon found a way to cash in. Can nothing be done about it?
  
  Regards, P.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 8th February 2009

  Hi priscilla,
  
  I thought Tony Robinson's baffled incomprehension in this Time Team special spoke volumes. The episode was a valuable illustration of the present unsatisfactory situation for interested viewers.
  
  Scheduled Sites, and finds covered by the Treasure Act 1996, enjoy considerable protection but enforcing this can be very difficult. It probably is best to try to work through voluntary agreements between Metal Detectorist Associations and the Portable Antiquities Scheme. The question to ask all detectorists is whether their primary purpose is to learn about the past, or to hunt for treasure. But there doesn't seem much doubt where the main interest of the two detectorists portrayed was directed.
  
  This does not mean I am happy. I take the extreme view that our material history is the joint property of all citizens (not the land-owners or finders) and is not to be sold off for profit on eBay. As the programme made clear many finds are in disturbed plough soil and can be removed without destroying valuable contextual information, but they must be reported and correctly identified.
  
  Best wishes,
  
  TP

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• Message 3

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  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 9th February 2009

  I didn't see the programme. What was Tony Robinson baffled about exactly?
  
  For what it's worth I personally think all would-be metal detectorists should be sent to train first - in Bosnia.

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• Message 4

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  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 9th February 2009

  Essentially there is a large field in North Yorkshire which has been 'worked' for years by two metal detectorists. Eventually they found Saxon coins, silver ingots, weights, nails and human bone which they interpreted as evidence of a Viking burial. With some reluctance they reported their finds to local archaeologists. The reluctance arose from the feeling that if the location were known then other metal detectorists would arrive to search their area.
  
  A professional excavation was paid for by English Heritage and directed by Richard Hall of the York Archaeological Trust (he of the Coppergate Dig). Tony Robinson was initially baffled because (for reasons which weren't entirely explained) he had to stop filming and leave the site when the archaeologists turned up.
  
  Later, when relations improved, he was able to film the work but was baffled again when it became obvious that the detectorists had removed, and mostly sold, thousands of objects from the field before reporting the 'Viking' objects. Richard Hall would not comment on this, or use the distribution of these earlier objects in his calculations (again the reasons for his reluctance were not obvious to the ordinary viewer). The finds were not commented on in detail but one could see that they included Saxon coins and Roman brooches.
  
  Geophysics and limited excavation produced pre-historic ditches, pits, and I think one piece of Bronze Age pottery. There was an (undated) human skeleton in very poor condition and one or two pieces of metal-work like a Roman fibula. There was no archaeology that really explains the density of finds recovered.
  
  The Time Team special was puzzling. We never saw the land owner, or heard a view expressed by English Heritage. The detectorists were knowledgeable but were clearly disappointed in the low valuation placed on their finds by the Portable Antiquities Scheme (about £5000). The concept that what they were finding and selling was our mutual heritage clearly never occurred to them for a moment. They were not the kind of men who deserved a boat burial!
  
  TP

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• Message 5

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  Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Tuesday, 10th February 2009

  Thanks for your precis, TP. Who wants to buy such stuff anyway? I did a look-see and found lots of assorted bits and pieces that detectorists are flogging. I assume they are are hoping for a find of treasure trove and I bet most hoards are never declared. The small dross, however, gets sold off when it would have been an invaluable to the local areas where it was found.
  
  Another point you made, TP; I too was curious as to why the landowner was missing in this context. There must be more money in growing spuds than I realised. The pair who had scavenged from those acres for ten years claimed to have made £50 000 pounds in that time..... or did I not hear that right?
  
  I find the entire thing deplorable.
  
  Regards, P.

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• Message 6

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Tuesday, 10th February 2009

  Hi Priscilla
  
  I believe that this is not the first time that the Time Team have been involved with metal detectorists and if I remember rightly have been trying to get to work with them in a positive manner in the past.
  
  Sadly I think that it is not possible to stop the detectorists and perhaps it would be better to try and get them to work within the archaeological establishment rather than force them outside and further underground (please excuse the pun).
  
  There is an argument that without the detectorists some finds would never have been discovered in the first place.
  
  I am afraid that not everyone is interested in archaeology and its place in history but people are always interested in making money and if there is a market for finds then there will always be people who are prepared to supply them and I suspect that there is a huge amount lost already on the open market.
  
  I doubt if you can criminalise people for purchasing artefacts and I suspect that the political will to control it is not there.
  
  Of course these people are doing this to make money.
  
  So why should there not be funding and a reward scheme for both the detectorists and for the landowners on whose land the finds were made as long as certain procedures were followed to allow local archaeological bodies to become involved and investigate and map the site etc.
  
  I do not condone the detectorists but to say that alone does not address the problem, surely some positive action needs to be taken?
  
  Kind Regards - TA
  

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• Message 7

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  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 10th February 2009

  The modus operandi of metal detector users is not archaeological except in a very out-dated and brutally warped sense of the term. That's the problem. When on occasion they have been "included" in a proper archaeological survey of a site the outcome, in the cases I have heard of, has always been either that they are forced to stick to the rules, get bored, and sod off or that they cannot contain their urge to dig in response to having located metal and compromise the integrity of the site (even the threat to do so is enough to start bitter rows). Either way it's been a disaster - and to be honest there are very few archaeological surveys where detecting subterranean metal as a matter of priority is of much practical benefit anyway, so even if an amicable partnership could be forged it would atrophy from lack of opportunity to exercise it in any case.
  
  People who defend their activities with "well, that piece would never have been found at all other than by a metal detector user" see archaeology as a kind of hide-and-seek game where the goal is to accrue artefacts of metal, and if it is precious metal all the better a "score". They are wrong. Of course to eliminate that mind-set requires a large investment in education to that end - a long process with unfortunately too much scope for further disaster in the time it takes to bear fruit, should it ever even happen.
  
  The majority of metal detector enthusiasts I am sure are reasonable people, are sometimes quite knowledgeable about historical subjects which interest them, are generally law-abiding, but they have little or no true understanding of how their activities are anathema to proper archaeology (such a thing does exist). Worse, they are for the most part outside the catchment area for a school-based attempt to dismantle the false premise on which their hobby is based. To educate THEM of the true nature of that premise would therefore be a sisyphean task.
  
  Which leaves only one sane and workable alternative. As TP's horror story above illustrates, legality or illegality even as presently described will not influence the actions of the most unscrupulous of them. But at least banning the activity as a crime against the preservation of national heritage will wake the majority up to how serious a damage they potentially represent to the retention of a valuable historical record, and would stop them cold. It would also disperse the ambiguous "defences" behind which unscrupulous practitioners hide their profit-motivated activity, and hopefully translate into punishments befitting the crime, thereby deterring even the most avaricious of the breed.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by lionheart1199 (U13789480) on Tuesday, 10th February 2009

  I watched the programme and although I agree with your comments TP, it is hardly suprising that metal detectorists choose to sell finds privately, given the example of the Portable Antiquities Scheme offer in the programme.
  
  Sadly, money talks...........
  
  lionheart
  
  

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• Message 9

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  Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Tuesday, 10th February 2009

  To say that is unprincipled and unhelpful, lionheart1199. What are the authorities supposed to do? Pay the treasure-hunters a fortune of our money in order to secure our history? The detectorists who appeared in the programme came over to me as little better than crooks. Tony's calm, measured responses to them were (compared with what I would have said in his place) heroic and admirable.

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 10th February 2009

  Hi lionheart,
  
  I do see what you mean, and in the light of events I can hardly dispute your analysis. I think that there are several points to consider however:
  
  The Portable Antiquities Scheme aims to give the finders and land-owners a reasonable price for their 'finds', not the largest conceivable price that might be raised at auction.
  
  The higher valuation for the coins and other finds (£40,000 I think) was given by one of the detectorists. He may have been correct in his estimation but this was never put to the test.
  
  There have been many examples of valuable and unique finds being freely given to the nation, Edith Pretty presented the British Museum with the Sutton Hoo treasures in this way.
  
  For members of the public who wish to be involved with 'the past' there are many opportunities aside from metal detecting. The are local archaeological societies. I am associated with two museums who can find roles for volunteers. Two academic excavations I was involved with welcomed local volunteers as a way of interacting with the community.
  
  TP

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by lionheart1199 (U13789480) on Wednesday, 11th February 2009

  Hi TP / LairigGhru
  
  I was not in any way attempting to condone or defend the actions of those who sell their finds privately on e-bay, or by any other means and I am in agreement with both of you.
  
  I was simply stating the fact that, if there is a lucrative market for such items ‘some’ people will take advantage of it.
  
  lionheart
  

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by Moilatar (U13874218) on Monday, 16th March 2009

  Hello!
  
  I am just wondering, if there would be any idea to train these metaldetectorists to work for the local museums or archaeologists? I know there are some clubs you can join,maybe these could also as well work closer with the people from The Portable Antiquities Scheme?
  There must be a way to protect the finds and to record them, and I am sure there are some "nice" detectorists also as well,who are working for the purpose of finding an interesting piece of history.
  Well,what I would suggest,is that the British Museum could launch a campaign for these good detectorists,to grow awareness of the importance of the rights for public knowledge of these founds and that they would appreciate the co-operation with all these detecting people with know-how while metal detecting.Maybe a course or two wouldn't be a bad idea,through those Metal detecting clubs around UK?
  
  But like said,every piece of history found from the ground,is important piece.They all add up and make a map of whereabouts of the people gone by into the past.
  
  Springtime regards,
  
  Marjo

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