Ancient and Archaeology听 permalink
Moridunum Demetarum amphitheatre
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.听
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Friday, 13th February 2009
I am so ignorant I did not know that there is a Roman amphitheatre in Priory street Carmarthen.
It was unusually large for the area.
Does this mean that there were many slaves in the area and that the strongest, or most stroppy, were trained as gladiators, for the pleasure of the Crowds?
Bull baiting or bear baiting, Hardly lions so far north?
Would the Demetae people have gladly gone to the amphi-theatre to see people fight, and have accepted the gladiators' status as slaves of Roman masters?
Would it have been short lived as an amphitheatre or used for a hundred years or more? -
Message 2
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Sunday, 15th February 2009
Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:49 GMT, in reply to Sir G芒r Hywel dda in message 1
Slaves would not necessarily be 'local boys', but imports, brought in either by a gladiator school based in the town or by a peripatetic troupe. Likewise, lions could be imported for animal fights, if the patron of the games thought it worth the expense. Given that the Britons had no hesitation in selling members of rival tribes or their own undesirables to the Romans even prior to the invasion, the slave status of the gladiators would not be likely to worry them too much; the presence of a civitas suggests a high degree of Romanization in the area in any case. -
Message 3
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Sunday, 15th February 2009
That is a very interesting nugget of information A-N. where on earth does one find such facts?!
Perhaps there were local panthers or leopards which would fight as well? It would be a jolly unhealthy lion, after a journey from Africa in a cage.
So slavery was accepted as normal by local people.
Is there any Roman town which is still lived in as it was in Roman times in these islands? Langres in North East France is said to be so. The most we can say about Carmarthen is that there was a Roman town there.
There were seven or eight other amphi theatres in
these islands. It is not as though Gerry Cottle did a tour of all of them with his animals. It would not have been practical.
A peripatetic troupe of gladiators must have been a considerable risk for the absconding of the "slaves" between performances, surely, and if they had leg irons, manacles on, that would have reduced their fighting strength?
They might of course have come by sea to both Carmarthen and to Caerleon (Newport) which would have facilitated secure transport. the location of the other half dozen would verify that. -
Message 4
Posted by MakeAgreement (U13818550) on Sunday, 15th February 2009
That Wikipedia link gives no information.
I am not sure that the amphitheater's main use was for games. Most cities in the Empire had an amphitheatre which was used for the assembly ie the gathering of all male citizens for political purposes.
It is believed that Camarthen was the capital town of the Demetae tribe.
As with city walls, the amphitheatre might have been created more for show than actual use. In Roman Britain, most of the city walls were constructed during the long period of peace.
Have any excavations discovered any artefacts associated with this? -
Message 5
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Sunday, 15th February 2009
Hi Sir G芒r
I am only an observer but I know bits so here goes.
Strange place Carmarthen
Allegedly the first town in Wales, Tribal township and Administrative centre for South West Wales.
There were two forts an early one of wood and a later one of stone but there appears to be have been continuous occupation up to the 2nd century.
Considering that there were Gold Mines up the road that were controlled by the Romans this must have been a strategic place of some import with a fair amount of soldiers based locally.
There was a fort at Carmarthen, 15 miles East another at Llandeilo, 15 miles West a fortlet at Tavernspite, 15 miles South a fortlet at Llanelli, 20 miles South West a fort at the Loughor Estuary let alone the Gold mines and the fort at Luentinum 30 miles away to the East and Llandovery and Neath around the same distance.
Carmarthen was also a port being on the River Towy with access to Carmarthen Bay. Carmarthen also controlled the port of Kidwelly 10 miles South.
So are we looking at a huge import export area with a slaves being imported via Carmarthen etc?
Although there is no direct proof (TP will slay me) I suspect that Carmarthen had a major strategic importance as it also helps guard one of the major access routes to the heart of middle Engand via the Towy valley.
In this case perhaps Carmarthen had much more going on and therefore perhaps the ampitheatre did actually reflect the importance of the town.
Also the ampitheatres were not just places of "Games" but also used as training areas for soldiers.
We do know that the Normans regarded the whole area as strategic as they built Castles at Loughor, Llanelli, Kidwelly, Carmarthen and Laugharne - all in Carmarthenshire and guarding the access from the sea.
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 6
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Sunday, 15th February 2009
Hi Sir Gar
Ampitheatres at
Chester
Aldeburgh
Colchester
Dorchester
Wroxeter
Caerwent
They are all close to rivers or the sea, so perhaps you have a point?
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 7
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Sunday, 15th February 2009
Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:33 GMT, in reply to Sir G芒r Hywel dda in message 3
The Wiki link is missing a bracket. Try this:
Most of the major Roman settlements in Britain still seem to be inhabited which is a nuisance as it makes excavating them difficult! Venta Icenorum in East Anglia is one that got away, though only the city wall survives in part - however, when crop marks are visible the gridded street plan shows up beautifully!
There is something in what MakeAgreement says about the amphitheatre having possible other uses. The one at Caerleon was probably used as much for training and parades by Legio II Augusta as it was for games. -
Message 8
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Sunday, 15th February 2009
Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:43 GMT, in reply to Anglo-Norman in message 7
Nope, the link still isn't working. It's a problem with the 主播大秀 forum encoder thingy - it doesn't like the brackets. Okay, just click on the link, then type a closing bracket ) at the end of the address, hit 'return' and hopefully you should get to the right page! -
Message 9
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Sunday, 15th February 2009
Hi Anglo-Norman
I think that Wroxeter may be a good example that hasn't been extensively built on - still with its walls.
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 10
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Sunday, 15th February 2009
Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:53 GMT, in reply to TheodericAur in message 9
And impressive walls they are, too.
IIRC, I bought some replica Roman coins at the shop, there, once. I bet you're delighted to know that!
-
Message 11
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Sunday, 15th February 2009
Hi Anglo Norman
You obviously had a good day out then.
If you've got Google Earth the layout of the town is quite impressive.
The walls at Caerwent are pretty impressive too as an outline of the town.
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 12
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Monday, 16th February 2009
Ampitheatres at
Chester
Aldeburgh
Colchester
Dorchester
Wroxeter
Caerwent
They are all close to rivers or the sea, so perhaps you have a point?听
There are also amphitheatres inland too, such as St Albans. And I'm pretty certain that Caerleon had a purpose built basilica for training the soldiers rather than using the amphitheatre. -
Message 13
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 16th February 2009
Hi everyone,
Fascinating topic. Large Roman military bases were commonly close to the sea, or a navigable river. There may have been an element of defence but I imagine the main consideration was supply. A small ship can carry far more material than a large military wagon train. The Roman Roads were essentially devices to move troops quickly, although once constructed they were doubtless adopted for other uses.
As has been pointed out many Roman centres evolved into modern cities. In Circencester, York, Carlisle, or the City of London virtually any hole in the ground reveals wonderful Roman archaeology. Three notable 'green-field' sites are Caistor (Venta Icenorum), Silchester and Wroxeter. All have been subject to some excavation and the University of Reading has been active at Silchester quite recently. Inevitably excavation to modern standards is both time-consuming and expensive. In the post-excavation period conservation of finds and the compilation of a proper site report is also very pricey.
There is something to be said for leaving unexcavated areas alone and examining them with only non-destructive methods. Have you all noticed the vastly improved presentation of geophysical surveys and ground-penetrating radar results displayed on Time Team over the last 10 years?
TP -
Message 14
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Monday, 16th February 2009
Hi cloudyj
Of course you are corrrect - there is also one at Cirencester.
The ampitheate at Chester was used for troop drills as well as entertainments:
so I expect the others also had other uses apart from just entertainment.
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 15
Posted by MakeAgreement (U13818550) on Monday, 16th February 2009
Most of the major Roman settlements in Britain still seem to be inhabited which is a nuisance as it makes excavating them difficult! Venta Icenorum in East Anglia is one that got away, though only the city wall survives in part - however, when crop marks are visible the gridded street plan shows up beautifully!
听
Silchester was another important town that became just fields after the Romans left, and has revealed quite a lot after excavation.
Most of Verulamium was left untouched because the medieval city of St Albans was built across the river from it, not over it. -
Message 16
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Monday, 16th February 2009
To All
I was under the impression that Roman Towns were built using a "standard template" with the Forum being in a particular place etc.
Is it the case that ampitheatres were built outsde the town walls usually on the East / South east of the town?
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 17
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Monday, 16th February 2009
I am glad The likes the topic because I have been wondering about it since I heard about the non excavation of the vicinity of the amphitheatre at Newport, while reading about Myths of Arthur.
The amphitheatre at Newport/Caerleon could be flooded by the way, for what purpose I don't know.
Swimming perhaps or putting toy boats on?
The jpeg/gif I have seen in the last day or two of the ~Carmarthen amphi-theatre suggests that the same could be done with that.
A reservoir of fresh water perhaps, at other times? -
Message 18
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Monday, 16th February 2009
A small ship can carry far more material than a large military wagon train.听
And the sea ways of the Bristol Channel and beyond were totally un-inhibiting to sailors from so many parts of Northern France, England, Cornwall, further round to Chester, to Ireland and so on.
Whereas trudging over land was t..r..u..d..g..i..n..g..
here is something to be said for leaving unexcavated areas alone and examining them with only non-destructive methods. 听
The barrows removed for a by pass near here, were meticulously recorded, and are to be found in the local museum archives. Not being able to see it
in reality may not matter too much.
The removal of the barrows byt farmers ploughing round them smaller and smaller each year is far more damaging, eventually gone entirely. -
Message 19
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Monday, 16th February 2009
A small ship can carry far more material than a large military wagon train.听
And the sea ways of the Bristol Channel and beyond were totally un-inhibiting to sailors from so many parts of Northern France, England, Cornwall, further round to Chester, to Ireland and so on.
Whereas trudging over land was t..r..u..d..g..i..n..g..
here is something to be said for leaving unexcavated areas alone and examining them with only non-destructive methods. 听
The barrows removed for a by pass near here, were meticulously recorded, and are to be found in the local museum archives. Not being able to see it
in reality may not matter too much.
The removal of the barrows by farmers ploughing round them ,smaller and smaller each year, is far more damaging, eventually gone entirely.
The whole port of Kidwelly, up near Carmarthen, was used as a rubbish dump until it was completely filled over, some years ago. -
Message 20
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Monday, 16th February 2009
Mon, 16 Feb 2009 18:17 GMT, in reply to Sir G芒r Hywel dda in message 17
The amphitheatre at Newport/Caerleon could be flooded by the way, for what purpose I don't know.听
Presumably for 'naumachiae', ship-borne combats. -
Message 21
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Monday, 16th February 2009
Hm Gruesome; but about 2/3 down the page the naumachae. -
Message 22
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Monday, 16th February 2009
Hi Sir Gar
Interesting about Kidwelly.
From the sizes of the various ampitheatres it would appear that the ampitheatre at Chester could seat 8,000, Caerleon about 6,000 and Carmarthen about 5,000
If this is correct at the least Carmarthen would appear to be far more important than is normally thought or at least with a large miltary presence.
So it begs the question what was going on here?
Was Carmarthen a transit point for large number of troops?
Were there more forts west of Carmarthen apart from Tavernspite?
Any ideas?
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 23
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Tuesday, 17th February 2009
Pembrokeshire/Cardiganshire/Carmarthenshire together
is quite a large and prosperous farming area.
I can't understand why they have moved the Llanelly amphitheatre closer to Swansea where there is a spanking new one already.
I am actually fairly surprised that the population was large enough to support such a large amphitheatre of 5,000 people.
I wonder whether the Arthur who is known to have used Caerleon, also knew of Carmarthen and whether it could also have been used for a similar purpose, or whether the use had completely changed just to a meeting place, by the time of Arthur/Aurelius Ambrosianus/ whoever.
When did they cease to use the amphitheatres?
3rdC ad therefore 200 onwards? -
Message 24
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Tuesday, 17th February 2009
Hi Sir G芒r
The movement of the Llanelli amphitheatre was purely down to a disease called Scarlet Fever and was necessary as the option of using the Swansea amphitheatre with its associated eagles was not deemed appropriate but has turned out very well even though it was moved away from the Strada to Carmarthen.
I too was surprised at the size of the amphitheatre in Carmarthen (roughly half the base circumference of the Flavian amphitheatre in Rome, although nowhere near as sophisticated nor built for the huge crowds at the Colosseum) but as I said before if this was the case is there a set of reasons for this?
If there were a lot of people wouldn鈥檛 there be archaeology for this? Apparently much of the original Roman Town is under the Carmarthen of today so perhaps there could be evidence there.
You have referred to the hinterland of rich agricultural land so perhaps this area was a source of food for the empire. There were two ports (Carmarthen and Kidwelly) a gold mine and food so perhaps this was a major trading site and market town. It would be brilliant to have other people鈥檚 opinion on this.
As far as I can ascertain there has never been an attempt to fully investigate the road west from Carmarthen and where it was leading to. This would appear to be related to lack of funds for archaeological projects.
The amphitheatre I believe was abandoned in the 2nd century but refurbished in the 3rd century.
Arthur 鈥 well I am no expert in this sphere either however I expect that he was fully aware of the whole of South Wales. From some of the glimpses that Gwenrian showed, there is a lot to connect Arthur to South Wales and I believe that there is room for debate in this area without bouncing into the realms of Magic and disbelief.
I respect many of the scholars that contribute to these Threads and consequently
since some of these discussions on the Message Board I now believe that parts of 鈥淲ales and Cornwall鈥 formed an alliance of Brythons against the invaders, by supporting each other.
The Beacon discussion showed that it would have been easy to warn Tintagel from Carreg Cennen Castle for instance or vica versa., Or indeed warn many parts of the 鈥淜ingdoms鈥 swiftly from one side of the country to the other..
Discussions about shipping showed that it was common place at this time and troops, livestock and goods were transported as a matter of course. To get across the Bristol Channel from Carmarthen or the Gower was a matter of hours not days.
I think that this era was a much more 鈥渏oined up鈥, more sophisticated than we (or certainly I) imagined.
Legend has it that Merlin came from Carmarthen and I think that this may well be based in fact.
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 25
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Tuesday, 17th February 2009
Theod,
Well I am glad that one of Sir G芒r's towns is doing good in the amphitheatre business.
The description on wiki of the Flavian amphitheatre
reminds me of the sets of a hollywood movie, they did so many different things. Even specialising in snuff dramas! ( real death dramas.)
I just read some of the Arthur theories on the Lampeter website modules.
I respect many of the scholars that contribute to these Threads 听
The radio 3 music board is phenomenal in its depth of musical learning too.
The Beacon discussion showed that it would have been easy to warn Tintagel from Carre听 Yes
To get across the Bristol Channel from Carmarthen or the Gower was a matter of hours not days. 听
Ilfracombe still has a ferry to Swansea, which my aunty and Gran used, more than a hundred years ago,for their annual holiday; a big event.
I wonder whether Merlin knew about Galenic medicine!That may have been some of his magic. -
Message 26
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Tuesday, 17th February 2009
Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:51 GMT, in reply to TheodericAur in message 24
You have referred to the hinterland of rich agricultural land so perhaps this area was a source of food for the empire. There were two ports (Carmarthen and Kidwelly) a gold mine and food so perhaps this was a major trading site and market town. It would be brilliant to have other people鈥檚 opinion on this.听
One of the key attractions of Britain to the Romans seems to have been its pre-existing sophisticated agricultural infrastructure. Though Egypt may have been the 'breadbasket of the Empire', Britain played an important role in providing the grain which fuelled the Army and kept the poor in check. IIRC, the Dartmoor Reeves are a very well preserved pre-Roman field system. Precious metals were another attraction. If the area in question was rich agricultural land, and had a gold-mine, then it could well have become and important locality to the Romans. -
Message 27
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Thursday, 19th February 2009
Hi AN
Many thanks for your views regarding the Agriculture at the time.
I gather that the technology you refer to was started in the early Iron Age so they most have been quite sophisticated by the time the Romans arrived.
Would the food have been used only for the Legions in Britain or in France and Germany as well as Italy?
Interestingly Romans were very much into their shellfish and Carmarthen Bay was well known for its cockles and Oystermouth in Swansea Bay for its Oysters.
I also beleive that the River at Loughor was used as a Roman shipyard and that the Gower may have been used as a holding ground for cavalry.
There appears to be a lot for the Romans to consider of importance in this area.
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 28
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Thursday, 19th February 2009
Hi Sir G芒r Hywel dda
I have tried to find the links on the Lampeter site regarding Arthur but cannot find them. Could you help please?
Galenic medicine is an area I have no knowledge of - how does this relate to Merlin?
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 29
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Thursday, 19th February 2009
According to this site there may have been more than 1m people living in these islands more than 3000 years ago, which surprises me.
About half as many as Kentucky in twice the land mass today.(excluding the Irish Isles of course)
What always amazes me is precisely where the field systems are to be found and seen now; on the sides of hills we do not even consider using for agriculture, possibly due to their need for south facing well protected sunlight for more of the year than modern farming methods require. -
Message 30
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Thursday, 19th February 2009
Lampeter site regarding Arthur 听
Sorry Theod I may have led you on a bit there, and i would not dare let you have my password for fear of their taking it away.
The course is free, free registration, but I expect you are well past the first degree stage by now!
I am too but I do enjoy reading!
I could just about send you a copy to read, a ten page module if you like.
-
Message 31
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Thursday, 19th February 2009
Interestingly it would appear from that web site that the temperature in the Bronze Age was 2 degrees celsius warmer than today - so they were obviously in "Global Warming" territory.
At this temperature much more was able to be grown in areas that would not be considered today as being to wet.
Regarding the population - I think that this would be an intersting separate thread.
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 32
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Thursday, 19th February 2009
Theod I have not read a great deal about Merlin and his castle, although I have known a certain number of Welshmen from that area by the name of Merlin or Mervyn.
My own forefathers were 16thC medical practitioners from Carmarthen and clergy as well, so I do get to wondering about the medicine that the Carthusians practiced for example in the middle ages. 12th-16thC.
I did not know, or had not considered, how advanced Classical Greek medicine was, until I looked at Galen's theories, which were only revitalised in the 17thC, due to a variety of causes.
It then ocurred to me that a magician in the 7th/8thC might equally be versed in a non stylized system of Galenic medicine, especially in an area which we have just agreed may well have had a very strong Roman presence in the 2nd or 3rdC.
In the 17thC there was Alchemy and there was Medicine. Merlin may have had herbal cures at his disposal, known from time immemorial, and have had a knowledge of Classical medicine.
Literacy itself gives powers of healing over people in certain ways. Ignorance can cause a lot of disease. Who is a smoker now? -
Message 33
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Thursday, 19th February 2009
Carmarthen Bay was well known for its cockles and Oystermouth in Swansea Bay for its Oysters.
听
Instant and succulent food such as the Cockles in a
river estuary with rich soil from upstream to feed them as fat as you like, must have been a very important consideration indeed for an army on the move, across water or across land.
Whilst a balanced diet of veg and some meat is essential, poor soldiers in an army would last very well on solid protein like that!!
Vegetable a minor detail by comparison.
Grass in 1976 was not too bad during the drought but had to be cooked well. -
Message 34
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Saturday, 21st February 2009
Well Theod may contend that there was quite a high population a long time ago, possibly 1/60th of what there is now, but if you look at Milford Haven,further west of Moridunum, all you find in the 12thc is a Norman Priory, whereas today it is the fifth largest port in UK.
Obviously it is not Welsh speaking.
It is possible that the population declined between the times of the amphitheatre at Moridunum 2ndC and the time of the priory 12thC. 1000 years and anything can happen to a population but I wonder how estimates for population could be made.
Knowing the number of roman settlements would not be enough. No remains would be available to examine of agriculture workers huts, thatch cottages, or would they.
Even in the 12thC the main purpose of secluded living in priories, monasteries and so on, was avoidance of disease, plague,typhus, cholera and all the other things that carried people off.
Most rural areas would have been untouched coppice and woodland, and not planted either!
Just there!
1m seems rather a high estimate for any time before the Norman conquest. -
Message 35
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Saturday, 21st February 2009
Hi Sir G芒r Hywel dda
I started another thread (How Many People?), as like you I am interested in the population fluctuations. There are a couple of interesting posts already.
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 36
Posted by MakeAgreement (U13818550) on Saturday, 21st February 2009
Sir Gar, one million is actually rather on the low side of current estimates for Roman Britain.
Intensive surveys have been done of small sample rural areas, and have found a fairly high density of sites (almost one per sq km). In "The Romanisation of Britain" by Millet, the mid-range estimate of population is 3.6 million (with a very high degree of uncertainty). -
Message 37
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Saturday, 21st February 2009
-
Message 38
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Saturday, 28th February 2009
Hi All
I am coming to the opinion that Carmarthen may have been a significantly important place - it was about 30 miles from a number of forts, a centre for a huge farming area, close to gold mines etc. So I believe that it was an important Market Town, Port, Transit Centre, Strategic Gateway for South West "Wales" and Administrative Centre and may well have supported up to three times the capacity of the amphitheatre - so perhaps 15,000 souls in Carmarthen and the surrounding area.
There appear to be no significant rebellions from the Demetae so perhaps this was because the comparative population was small maybe no more 30,000 for South West Wales which would be easily controlled.
If we extrapolate 10,000 souls average, for the larger towns in Britain (major settlements, towns, spa towns, coloniae, provincial capitals etc about 65 in all) we get a figure of about 650,000 in the towns plus that much again in the countryside we end up with a population of around 1.5 million in Britain, which seems to fit with what is being said.
This does not include the major military sites 鈥 the forts etc.
Kind Regards 鈥 TA -
Message 39
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Saturday, 28th February 2009
The nearest town was Caerleon,Newport which also had an amphitheatre.
-
Message 40
Posted by LavenderBlueSky (U13842100) on Saturday, 28th February 2009
We seem to have digressed from the amphitheature, so . . .
How will the discovery of two Roman forts at Llandeilo change our view of the Demetae?
The original military fort could accommodate 2,000 men. A newer, smaller fort was built on top of the original. If the original fort was destroyed (cause unknown yet) why would they need to rebuild if the Demetae were so unwarlike?
At least one source claims the Roman forts along eastern Dyfed were built to save the Demetae from Siluri attack. (Sometimes you have to have something to laugh at.)
Of course, it's possible the Demetae were smart enough to notice how other tribes fell before the Romans and decided not to risk life and limb. They may not have won the battle but they won the war, because some historians claim the Demetae kept alive the Brythonic language and culture which re-emerged after the Romans left.
I'm a rank amateur but I'd like to know what the experts think. -
Message 41
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Saturday, 28th February 2009
If the original fort was destroyed (cause unknown yet) why would they need to rebuild if the Demetae were so unwarlike?听
Just general control of movement of population, and troops?
The fact of the use of the sea for transport, then shows that the Demetae area was more highly populated than points east towards Caerleon and Silurian territory. -
Message 42
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Saturday, 28th February 2009
Hi Sir Gar Hywel Dda and LavenderBlueSky
SGHD - I think that you are right. The Tywi valley was a major route up towards the rest of the country.
Llandeilo is at an important point in the Tywi Valley and the head of the Llwchwr valley.
This area has been recognised through the ages as strategically important, you only have to look at the castles, whether Norman or Welsh to see this.
I don't think that the Romans were protecting the Demetae from the Silures...and I have a sneaky suspicion that the Demetae decided to form an alliance with Rome rather than fight - they would not have been the only group of peoples to do this and may have already seen the havoc that Rome could visit upon tribes to the east - they also had Gold Mines to negotiate with.
With reference to a previous post on Merlin and Galenic medicine and philosophies I think that Sir Gar may indeeed be correct through the Gladatorial link.
Regarding the Brythonic language I think that this was alive and well in many areas once the Romans left but this really is another Thread.
What might be an interesting thought is "Was Carmarthen abandoned after the Romans left, like other towns or was it maintained and lived in?"
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 43
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
The life and death features of the amphitheatre,
which were probably no different from those in other Roman sporting facilities(!), would have drawn
large numbers of the population in to the theatre, to see "Fred" fight to the death for his freedom with "Joe", both of them local men.
They would have been so fearful that they would
not have dared *not* to go! -
Message 44
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:28 GMT, in reply to Sir G芒r Hywel dda in message 43
I'm puzzled, Sir G - are you really saying that people would be *forced* to go to the Games? -
Message 45
Posted by LavenderBlueSky (U13842100) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
I also have a sneaky suspicion the Demetae formed an alliance with the Romans rather than fight.
Let's face it, when you've watched other fierce tribes like the Iceni and Siluri virtually wiped out by the War Machine you'd have to be a bit thick to offer any form of resistance.
In one book I read, the author said the Demetae left much of the arable lowlands to the Romans and took off into hilly country and mountain valleys. There is little evidence of the Romans there or farther west.
That might have some truth because rural Dyfed seems to have more than its fair share of blondes and redheads with blue eyes. Most people think of the Welsh as short and dark, but the largest proportion with that colouring and height live along the heavily garrisoned south east coast of Wales. -
Message 46
Posted by LavenderBlueSky (U13842100) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
I think any Demetae living around the amphitheatre would have to pay lip service to the Romans to survive. One way of doing that would be to attend such "sporting" events.
You mentioned "Fred" fighting for his freedom. I've done some research but nowhere have I seen mention of criminals being sent into the arena for their sins, except in Hollywood fiction. I haven't seen much about Roman prisons either. Did they used the amphitheatre as a form of punishment? -
Message 47
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:39 GMT, in reply to LavenderBlueSky in message 46
As long as the locals didn't cause trouble and paid their taxes, I really don't believe the Roman administration (many of whom would have been jumped-up locals themselves, at least at a lower level) could have cared less about whether people went to the Games or not!
In the Flavian Amphitheatre, executions were part of the usual programme - where the criminals would face professional gladiators rather than each other, and could be expected to be rapidly dispatched - but whether this happened in provincial establishments is a moot point. Crucifixion, the public strangler or - if they had them - the wild beasts would be more likely. Non-capital serious offences would probably result in slavery, in the mines if they were seriously unlucky. -
Message 48
Posted by Grumpyregulus (U13844103) on Sunday, 1st March 2009
I have an idea that some amphitheatres are unconfirmed. I feel sure that Colchester did not have one, in spite of vessels with gladiator decoration.
A couple of theatres, possibly used for civic purposes in the absence of a forum -basillica,(one well outside the limits of the Roman town), and strong claims for the largest circus (chariot racing for the use of !)north of the Alps -
Message 49
Posted by LavenderBlueSky (U13842100) on Monday, 2nd March 2009
"Jumped-up locals"
You're right. Archaeologists are turning up evidence of these pseudo Romans all over the place. Some of those people were darned vicious, from the little I've read.
I think this also pertains to another thread asking about Roman towns after the Romans left. I'm sure the jumped-up locals took control and were possibly put in charge before the army left. -
Message 50
Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Monday, 9th March 2009
Just had a thought about ampitheatres in Britain.
The Romans were amazed at how warlike the Brythons were - all the time.
Could it be that Britain was a net exporter of Gladiators?
Kind Regrads - TA
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or 听to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
主播大秀 iD
主播大秀 navigation
主播大秀 links
主播大秀 漏 2014 The 主播大秀 is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.