Ancient and ArchaeologyÌý permalink
Cave men
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Monday, 23rd March 2009
Did they ever really exist?
The idea of Stone-Age man living in his cave is so ingrained that it seems absurd to question its veracity, but is there any evidence to support the idea?
Caves were obviously used as overnight stops or longer hunting expedition camps as can be seen from the discovered hearths & discarded bones. But there doesn't seem to be any evidence of large family groups living in caves permanently for many centuries.
Caves would not be nice places to live. Cold. dark, damp, uneven, prone to flooding, poor ventilation, inaccessible, in dead end gullies, etc. Given humans' ape descendency it is more likely that they would prefer the shelter & protection up in trees than in caves if they weren't safe on the ground.
Most cave art is at the furthest part of the cave where the air gets closest to the heart of the world & where a large human group could not survive. They lay their dead to rest nearby which indicates a religious belief in the Underworld & death. With such beliefs it is unlikely that they would choose to live underground as well.
If caves were in constant use for 1000+ years you'd expect to see more wear & tear to it & surrounding areas, signs of DIY improvements, & much greater accumulations of debris & lost artefacts than is currently usual.
The problem with the Cave-man theory is that we've been looking for Ugh! Ugh! savages in caves when we should have been looking for intelligent, thriving communities who probably had a fairly good quality of life above ground. -
Message 2
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 23rd March 2009
Very very interesting remarks!
However I have read about several caves where they found skeletons dating the one say at 60,000 years and the other at 30,000 years before our age and in the inbetween other skeletons, thus showing that the cave was at least quite often habitated by people.
I would imagine that the cave was mostly a winter shelter especially for those Neaderdals that did not move a lot. It would be safe enough, you controlled easily the entrance you could stock your things inside etc. However few were the caves that could host societies larger than one family.
I cannot but agree with you that people lived elsewhere (even out in the open when climate permitted it) and used caves mostly as temporary shelters rather than permanent homes. Thus we cannot expect the occasional hunter to have left behind him a lot of things while the skeletons we find are of people that happened or decided to die there, not because whole communities lived there (otherwise we would had found more than the average of 1-2-10-20-30 skeletons we find (we would find several 1000s over a long chronological period). -
Message 3
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Wednesday, 25th March 2009
Many places in the world have troglodyte dwellings which are occupied enthusiastically even today.
The most famous example of recent years well televised is that of the Latvian gentleman in the Opal mines in Australia, which is such a cool place to live and where he runs a useful hotel today.
To me that is the way forward for Australian living!
There are even troglodyte dwellings in Spain somewhere, and in the Arab world plenty of them. -
Message 4
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Wednesday, 25th March 2009
I think that cave dwelling in the British isles would be too damp and too cold.
In hot North African/Asian climates they would maintain a fairly even temperature throughout the year, not too hot in summer.
The question, which is a sensible one but slightly misdirected, should perhaps be "Why is there a cave man myth in northerly climes when there is no real evidence of it, only for keeping cool further south?" -
Message 5
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Wednesday, 25th March 2009
Thank you Sir Gâr Hywel dda & E_Nikolaos_E for your replies. It is late & the board will close in a few minutes, so I'll be quick.
There are caves in India & Tibet that have been continuously occupied for several thousand years, I have been to some of them. They have been turned into underground cities that are cool in the summer & snow free in winter.
The point is that they have been altered by occupation. If you look at most European caves there is very little modification, & that is usually at the furthest end (& uninhabitable) of the caves, not in the areas that the occupiers would live everyday. -
Message 6
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Thursday, 26th March 2009
It *is* an interesting question about the common misconception of the word cave in English.
If you look at this (commercial) and most unusual site
You will see a cave made from willow. It is no less a cave than any other. Just because it is made of willow and turf is no reason to think that cave men did not live in it!
It is our obsession with *sea side* caves on our holiday as children which causes us Brits to think of cave men in such a way!
Saying that there was one such cave in West Wales 50 years ago, which uncovered a stone age skeleton or similar, so they are not to be condemned out of hand, nor for their adventure! -
Message 7
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Thursday, 26th March 2009
The term also seems to be more of a zoological and ornithological expression than a human one, as you may read from this Dictionary website.
Gorillas and birds are more likely to be (troglodyte) cave dwellers than humans, and references to human cave dwellers is mainly to the origins of the species in Africa or Asia Minor.
My home will soon be about 10' underground on one side, to protect from the west wind in UK! It is already but not with cave walls to show for it.
You've got me thinking!
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Message 8
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Thursday, 26th March 2009
Caves were indeed inhabited, with many caves having given up lots of evidence of human habitation, whether it's skeletal remains of the animals eaten, evidence of fires, other human artefacts - these are often found in sediments found in caves that have accumulated over a long period of time.
Caves on their own can seem draughty and cold and wet, but once you light a fire in a cave (or in the cave entrance to allow the smoke to escape) it warms up very quickly with the cave walls reflecting the heat back into the cave itself (the same is true of insides of stone castles - they seem very dank and inhospitable to us now, but a large fire heats up the room very effectively with the stones acting in the same way as the stone in a storage heater). Stick a cover made from animal hides over the front of the cave, or a wicker-work of twigs/branches and hey presto, you have a nice little shelter.
And not all caves are prone to flooding, as they may have been formed long ago at a time before a valley hadn't dried up, or when the area was at sea-level (isostacy can see to that changing). -
Message 9
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 26th March 2009
A cave generally will have an arched our rounded ceiling, very effective for air circulation thus keeping the place cool in summer and warm in winter.
We used to live in a very old stone house with walls 2ft thick and arched ceilings, it was the best place I've ever lived in. Absolutely no need for heating in the winter or cooling in the summer, there is much we could re-learn from our ancestors. -
Message 10
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Thursday, 26th March 2009
Hi Stoggler,
Thank you for your input. Your fire & curtain seem to be in the same place. Is the fire inside this curtain? In which case you have mayor ventilation problems, or is it outside & not supplying any heat? It would be virtually impossible to heat the inside of a cave unless it had a natural chimney, & even then a sudden change in wind direction could lead to suffocating conditions. The tradition of "smoking out" Bears & other hidden enemies has continued because it is so effective.
Most caves are prone to flooding, after all that is how most of them were made. Around such caves you'd expect to see some signs of the inhabitants trying to alter the water course away from the cave by channelling or banking. As you say some caves are dry, however these are usually higher up on cliffs with poor access. Pregnant mums with their kids, carrying loads of wood & water would be needing constant access to the caves. Over 1000 years there would be a wide & well worn path to any inhabited cave.
No-one is denying that caves were inhabitated. I live in a tent occasionally, but I am not a Tent-man! The evidence of men in caves does not add up to show that they were continuously occupied for 1000+ yrs by groups of about 30 people. As you point out the sediment between finds covers vast time scales; if conventional Cave-men existed the finds would be at every level of the sediment.
The time zone we are looking at is the last Ice-age through to the end of the Mesolithic era.
During this time the ice was either growing or receding & the weight on the land was constantly changing. This would be a time of regular earth tremors & movements; so not a nice time to be underground. I read recently that Scandinavia is still rising due to the natural spring in the rock from the ice cap's retreat.
There are hundreds of caves in the Mendip Hills that show usage going back to the Stone-age or earlier. There are signs of temporary shelter, storage, & "religious" burials at the deep end. The main cavern areas appear to be largely unaltered: sharp protrusions still in place, floors not filled in & levelled, no benches etc. cut.
However quite a few of them seem to show that a lot of work has been done to prepare the caves for sealing. There are boulders of the right size either above or beside the entrance ready to roll into place. At Sidcot Swallet it looks like a whole strata of rock has been prepared to work as a massive portcullis. A nearby cave, Aveline's Hole was sealed in Mesolithic times & inside were the oldest human bones ever found in Britain. You might like to hide your home, but you don't seal it up so you can't get back in.
The tools that they had may have been primitive but they were effective. A stone tool that is sharp is just as good as a metal one (& stone is still used to sharpen metal). The tools they had are still some our most frequently used tools. -
Message 11
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Thursday, 26th March 2009
hundreds of caves in the Mendip Hills that show usageÌý
That would be a good place for cave men to enjoy cave dwelling.
Where else in British Isles? -
Message 12
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Thursday, 26th March 2009
Your fire & curtain seem to be in the same place. Is the fire inside this curtain? In which case you have mayor ventilation problems, or is it outside & not supplying any heat?Ìý
Ventilation could be a problem, but that did not stop people having fires in houses without a proper chimney in more recent times. And I did not say that the cover had to cover the whole of the cave entrance. Leaving a gap at the top would let the smoke out (providing the wind is not blowing it straight back in) but be sufficient to keep the worst of the weather out. It's not perfect, but it serves its purpose well enough for a short-term solution.
Most caves are prone to flooding, after all that is how most of them were made.Ìý
I did say that not all caves are prone to flooding, and the archaeological evidence suggests that they were used. And even dry ones are not all in difficult-to-get-to places, again the evidence supports that (not to mention my own playing around in some as a kid!)
No-one is denying that caves were inhabitated. I live in a tent occasionally, but I am not a Tent-man! The evidence of men in caves does not add up to show that they were continuously occupied for 1000+ yrs by groups of about 30 people. As you point out the sediment between finds covers vast time scales; if conventional Cave-men existed the finds would be at every level of the sediment.
Ìý
At no point did I mention for how long caves were occupied for, and if it was a permament year-round arrangement (you seem to be inferring a hell of a lot from what was a rather brief post of mine).
As you point out the sediment between finds covers vast time scalesÌý
I said nothing of the sort. I did not say they were occupied permanently by a specific number of people over a specific number of years. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.
In addition to what I said in a previous post, caves are also of use in that deep ones maintain a fairly constant temperature year-round: Wookey Hole for example is a constant 11 degrees Celcius -
Message 13
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Thursday, 26th March 2009
Thank you for trying to clarify you views
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Message 14
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 30th March 2009
Actually it was me that mentioned that in some caves we do find bones of people that lived in various eras from around 60,000 to 20,000. That shows at least a repeated utilisation of the cave as most people anyway would die and be buried outside the cave. Very few people would bury their dead inside the cave (though we have found also that, evev by Neaderdals).
However, as said above, we do not talk about communities of more than 30 people. And the fact that we found 15 bones of around 60,000, 30 bones of 55,000, 60 bones of 40,000 does not give a clue for continuous utilisation of the cave as a permanent residence!!! We could not say that 100ù even if we found human remains dating from every single millenia from 60,000 to 20,000. It was more than normal that caves would be used by passing by people. But most possibly not permanently by most of them, certainly still quite many would have lived longer periods in there, especially in the glacial period. -
Message 15
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Monday, 30th March 2009
Very few people would bury their dead inside the cave (though we have found also that, evev by Neaderdals).Ìý
Caves formerly used as habitations would then be used as burial places.
The barrows were used similarly, and look at all those CofE vicars surrounded by people's bones. -
Message 16
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Monday, 30th March 2009
Thank you E_Nikolaos_E & sincerest apologies to Stoggler for any miss-understanding. The nature of these Boards encourage brevity, often at the expense of clarity, leading to false readings between the lines.
I love Wookey Hole, that tree growing inside in near constant temps & artificial light, yet knows the seasons is wonderful & a beacon of hope & inspiration on many levels.
The temperature in Wookey is nearly constant but that temperature would not have remained constant throughout time. The nearly comfortable 11 degrees of today would have been at least a couple of degrees lower during glacial & near-glacial times.
At first glance Wookey would seem like an ideal cave home: in a south facing ravine, large & level cavern, ample fresh water. However directly above there is Ebor Gorge which has numerous slopes of glacial scree deposits. At any time of ice or snow melting the valley would be in severe danger of flooding or ice-slides.
It is unclear as to exactly how Mendip was affected by the last ice-age. It seems that most of it wasn't under permafrost, but that it had severe seasonal ice deposits. Sudden icings & melts would make life very treacherous for the locals especially if they were cooped up in a hole at the end of a narrow ravine under an ice wall.
To Sir Gâr Hywel dda:
I would choose your corner of west Wales (message 11) & some of us carry our old bones around with us! (message 15). -
Message 17
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Monday, 30th March 2009
A smattering of Latin is a good old bone. Some legal expressions even better.
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