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How and What is the Great

• Message 1. 

  Posted by justalexander (U13884823) on Wednesday, 1st April 2009

  I raise this topic with the view to understand where The Great comes from who started it and why and where did it stop ?
  
  Throughout the histories we get names with the title Great is it just a label passed around willy nilly.
  
  Im not going to refer to Alexander as thats my topic. I know he nor his contempories called him the great.
  
  We have Greats prior to Alexander-.Ramises, Cyrus then the list goes on.
  
  What warranted the Great and really some who have been called Great really were not.Herod was basically a Roman lacky who had nothing without Rome.
  
  Alfred. Harold.?
  
  And why are not Julius Caesar.Augustus.Hannibal even.If military conquests gave it to Alexander.
  
  Was Ramises and Cyrus called the Great by there contemporaries. where are the roots and causes for the tag.
  
  Ive been asked why Alexander was called the Great.to be honest I have no idea. All i know is he achieved exceptional things.
  
  Why wasnt Napoleon a great. The guy rose from an army gunner to overlord most of Europe at its most prominent.
  
  Would Ghenghis be the great if he wasnt Asian. Saladin,Attila.
  
  Any theories?
  
  

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009

  Interesting question. Pompey the Great is the only Roman I can recall who had that title, which he was given in his lifetime. Julius Caesar never claimed it, nor was he given it, but then, Augustus made a poitn of talking down his own greatness because he claimed to be the first among equals and other emperors seem to hav emaintained that pretence.
  
  Some rulers must have claimed the title for themselves, I suspect, if only to impress their subjects and neighbours, but most would have been given the name by later generations. For eample, Alfred was not The Great until Victorian times. It therefore seems to be a very subjective thing, with no set list of requirements before it is awarded. Of couse, in some instances, like Ramsses, it serves to distinguish the Great one from the other kings of that name and so is a convenient label. As for Napoleon, there were others of the same name after him, but he was so famous that whenever anyone refers to Napoleon, everyone else knows who is meant, so there was perhaps no need for him to be referred to as the Great.
  
  I suspect it is one of those terms which someone will use to describe a ruler, and it will stick if enough other people pick up on it.

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• Message 3

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  Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009

  A good post Tony. One very slight amendment if I may - I believe that Alfred was given the "Great" epithet much earlier than the Victorian period - I'm sure I've read that it was in the Middle Ages.
  
  Can anyone clarify when this was so?
  
  Evenso, your main point still stands - it was given to him some time after his death

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by justalexander (U13884823) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009

  Tony Stoggler.
  
  I guess there came a time when it stopped. 20th Century didnt give us any. Mandella the Great.
  
  If Hitler hadnt resorted to ethnic cleansing would that make Hitler the Great. He did improve Germany and took Europe before his wheels came off.
  
  I would hope some moderates could be aclaimed Great or Inventors. Alexander Flemming the Great Penicilin.
  
  Presley the Great although very weak minded qonquered the world with his music and in some ways revolutionised popular trends.
  
  As I said no idea why or who is great.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009

  I"...f Hitler hadnt resorted to ethnic cleansing would that make Hitler the Great..."
  
  
  I shall leave aside your comment on him improving Germany as a different discussion. But the point about Hitler is that he lost. Greatness is never in defeat. At least I can't think of a holder of the title that lost. Hitler, being a fascist, would surely agree with that.
  
  
  
  "...I would hope some moderates could be aclaimed Great or Inventors. Alexander Flemming the Great Penicilin..."
  
  
  The epithet 'The Great' is reserved for national heroes. Anyone else is simply 'The Greatest' at whatever it is they do.

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• Message 6

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  Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009

  You don't get people having "The Great" added after their name these days, but you do hear it added *before* their name: The Great Maradona, The Great Bradman. Ok, I guess it should be lower case so not the same, but that's probably the nearest you get to having the word "great" attached to someone's name these days.

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by -frederik- (U13721647) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009

  A lot of Greats in history indeed.
  
  Ramises
  Alexander
  Charles
  Suleiman
  Akbar
  Peter
  Catharina
  ...
  
  Traditionaly the title has to do with military succes and/or the wealth of a country under (and due to) a certain leader (sometimes simply length of the person too).
  
  There are generaly two ways I can think of to become a "Great".
  
  1. Some simply have themselves called "the great", or are called it during their lives.
  
  2. The title "the great" itself was often given in the years directly after the lives of many of these "great" figures. That is because often the reign of a "great" leader was folowed by the reign of a lesser (or less popular) leader, or a period of less wealth. So contemporaries (historians or others) nostalgicaly looked back at a previous period, under a "better" leader. As a consequence these "better" leaders of the near past are easily called "the Great". With a little luck, that title then soon becomes widely known, and will be adopted by historians for centuries to come.
  
  <>
  - History is written by the winners.
  
  f.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 2nd April 2009

  I suppose that strictly two later Romans, Constantine and Theodosius were given the title 'the Great'. I'm not sure why Diocletian missed out. If you want to extend the title to Holy Roman Emperors don't forget Charlemagne and Otto the Great.
  
  It's not just princes and warriors who receive this title; was there not a philosopher called Albertus Magnus?
  
  TP

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 4th April 2009

  Alfred was given the "Great" epithet much earlier than the Victorian period - I'm sure I've read that it was in the Middle Ages.
  
  Can anyone clarify when this was so? 
  
  Yes – Alfred’s epithet ‘Great’ well predates the Victorian era.
  
  The epithet ‘Great’ is not given to Alfred by his contemporary biographer the Welsh monk John Asser Bishop of Sherborne. Neither do later mediaeval writers such as the Worcester chroniclers Florence and John or William of Malmesbury writing 200 years later at the beginning of the 12th century.
  
  The first reference to King Alfred as ‘Afredus Magnus’ seems to come from the Tudor historian John Leland during the reign of Henry VIII. Leland’s collection of writings were published more that 150 years after his death as ‘Commentarii de Scriptoribus Brittanicis’ by Anthony Hall in 1709. It seems that the term ‘Alfred the Great’ then gains increasing currency thereafter.
  
  Interestingly Alfred’s other epithet of ‘England’s Darling’ is much older. It’s used by the monk Layamon in his poem ‘Brut’ written in the early 13th century:
  
  ‘Seodthen ther after
  mani hundred winter
  com Alfred the king
  Engelondes deorling.’
  
  This was written 300 years after Alfred’s death while it would be over 600 years before he gained epithet ‘the Great’.

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