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Caerleon/Isca's new suburb! Time to revise Welsh Roman history?

• Message 1. 

  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 13th August 2010

  Congrats to the students and staff of the School of History, Archaeology and Religion At Cardiff Uni who have put together this entertaining and informative web page highlighting their discovery this year of a large and previously unknown Roman suburb in Caerleon.
  
  Their work has revealed a complex more urban in character than hitherto assumed and seems to knock on the head many older views that Caerleon/Isca was almost exclusively of military importance only to the Romans.
  
  With previous discussions regarding the Romans in Wales in mind, do people think we can draw even wider implications from this important find?

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Friday, 13th August 2010

  I suppose the obvious one is that theres a lot we dont know that we dont know about the Romans in Britain?
  
  I wonder if its repeated on other sites? Caernarvon was a Roman navy base at one point?
  
  An extra suburb in one place is fascinating enough but if that is repeated across other sites in Wales then it rather throws the idea of it being unconqered except when the Romans waded in to sort the natives out, right out of the window.
  
  I suppose it also raises more questions over the Romans relations with Ireland? If Roman settlement was more than a collection of forts and bases then they are trading with some one and the obvious question is was more of it with ireland than previously thought?
  
  
  
  

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• Message 3

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Saturday, 14th August 2010

  Hi Nordmann and backtothedarkplace (dan)Free Sean!
  
  As we have discussed previously the Irish left copious signs of there presence in West Wales and I doubt if the Romans would have tolerated their presence if they did not have good relations with them.
  
  I would agree that it seems that with the recent discovery of a 4th Century Roman villa outside Aberystwyth that this was not a Province that was for military purposes only.
  
  
  
  Although we know that there are around 230 amphitheatres in the Roman empire we have 10% of them in Britain
  
  Aldborough, Baginton, Caerleon 6000 capacity, Caistor, Carmarthen 5000 capacity, Cirencester 8000 capacity, Charterhouse, Chester 9000 capacity, Colchester?, Inveresk, London, Newstead, Richborough, Silchester 3500 capacity, St Albans,Tomen y Mur, Wroxeter, York (not found)
  
  I think that the importance of Carmarthen has also been underestimated, as it has a large amphitheatre that could have perhaps entertained from its size alone around 5,000 people.
  
  Now if this was for the troops that would seem to reflect a large force to be stationed that far west.
  
  There were as with Llandeilo up the valley, successive forts built here so this was obviously regarded as an important area to reinforce.
  
  Certainly Carmarthen guards one of the main routes into England from the Continent or Ireland.
  
  If it was for entertainment that would indicate as at Caerleon that perhaps there was at one stage a considerable town here as well, could this have been a trading and market town for the Irish and Romans?
  
  The signs are pointing to this being a rich an important province with its Gold Mines, the easy access to coal, wealth of land for farming etc.
  
  
  
  Every now and again we see intriguing glimpses of Roman influences in Britain and with the discovery of a 4th century villa in mid Wales and the suburb at Caerleon we have to accept that the Roman influence was not all withdrawn to the Wall.
  
  Kind Regards - TA
  

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• Message 4

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Saturday, 27th August 2011

  Hi All
  
  The expansion of the Caerleon site goes on and on after last year's discoveries of large public buildings has been supported by the discovery of a harbour, see link:
  
  
  
  The diagram that accompanies this article shows Caerleon as it might have been.
  
  Interestingly this town layout with its ampitheatre bears a striking resemblance to Carmarthen with its tidal river. As the Romans were creatures of habit when it comes to the layouts of Camps, Forts, Towns etc. might there be a similar layout with a harbour in Carmarthen?
  
  Kind regards - TA

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• Message 5

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  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 31st August 2011

  Have you already seen this TA? If not, enjoy ...
  
  

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• Message 6

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Wednesday, 31st August 2011

  Hi Nordmann
  
  Many thanks for the link.....
  
  Looks magnificent......
  
  Its amazing to think that we have always asumed that Caerleon was just abandoned with the XXth moving off to pastures new and with Caerwent being the nearest local town of significance taking over the Administrative role for the area.
  
  Perhaps we will have to review our understanding of the whole of South Wales including Cardiff Shore Fort, Carmarthen (with its good size ampitheatre and named as "seaport") etc..
  
  Kind Regards - TA

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• Message 7

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Wednesday, 31st August 2011

  Hi Nordmann
  
  Sorry I obviously completely cracked up earlier on and of course meant the the 2nd Legion Augusta not the XXth Legion who allegedly built Burrium just up the road.
  
  Kind Regards - TA

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• Message 8

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  Posted by Papa Nopsis (U14479902) on Saturday, 10th September 2011

  There was a very ancient harbour in Carmarthen which was filled in some years ago without regard to history. I think they used it as a rubbish dump to start off with; something like that.
  
  Then the harbour moved down to Bury Port, briefly to Llanelli in the 19thC, and then I guess to the big ships of Bristol and Liverpool. Swansea harbour has been well conserved recently, for small boats and appearances.
  
  My family owned two sea going ships going out of Burry port and Llanelly when they were in service as ports, and nearly bancrupted themselves when the business disappeared overnight in about 1898.
  
  Gardda

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• Message 9

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Saturday, 10th September 2011

  Hi Gardda
  
  The following is about Carmarthen as a port:
  
  Carmarthen had a thriving Bristol Channel trade from medieval times to the mid C19, Speed's town plan of 1610 shows some ships lying at the quay below the castle.
  
  The fact that town is 10 miles from where the Towy finally reaches the sea was at one point an advantage until piracy was suppressed in the C17. But the same fact was also finally its undoing as a port .
  
  In 1592, merchants of the town complained to the Privy Council that they had been despoiled by pirates of " 4 barkes laden with silks velvets, wine and oil to the value of £10,000".
  
  Oak timber used to be shipped from here to the main English dockyards for the construction of battle ships or trading vessels, other exports included bark[mainly to Ireland], slate, bricks, lead, ore, grain, eggs and butter. And in the other direction came imports of foreign timber, pitch, tallow and resin, coal, culm, malt, salt and various manufactured goods. In the C17 and C18 coal was shipped from Carmarthen to London.
  
  In 1792 , Carmarthen was a more important port than Cardiff, with 57 vessels of total tonnage 2293 against Cardiff 's 22 vessels with total tonnage of 789.
  
  An old directory of 1794 gives a list of some ships belonging to Carmarthen port, these include ;
  
  At "Pickle Herring Wharf" there were the Race Horse, John Sally, Neptune, Industry, Welcome, Lovely Cruiser, Union, Elizabeth.
  
  At "The Back" [Bristol], there were ; Lark, Speedwell, Providence, Constant Trader, Ceres, Polly and Betsy, Emlyn, John and Mary, Mayflower.
  
  In 1831, prior to the increase in individual ships' tonnage capacity which ruined Carmarthen's sea trade, 13 foreign and 426 coasting vessels came into the port, and some £3000 was paid in customs duty.[25.3.2000 D]
  
  The registered number of ships belonging to the port was 51, and 152 men were employed there.
  
  Kidwelly was also a port please see this link:
  
  
  
  Kind Regards - TA

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• Message 10

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  Posted by Papa Nopsis (U14479902) on Sunday, 11th September 2011

  Marvellous. That IS a good read isn't it Theo! I get confuses with the two ports.
  If I had sailed up the Gwnendraeth though I would not ,would I?!
  
  I have got one Australian cousin of about 5 generations, whose forefather did the
  Australia run with fine goods, 8 or ten times in the late 19thC, but I have not been able to work out which port he left from, and whether these ports would have been too small for starting the journey. It was probably Bristol, there being finery in Bristol even then!
  
  Some went to Bilbao with coal, and one Howell lost his life falling down the hold
  in a storm.
  
  My ggf was a trained surgeon but was in the business of ships , two of them, until he nearly bancrupted himself in 1898, with the ports depression and died in 1901, upset by the loss of his youngest, 18 year old in SA.

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Sunday, 11th September 2011

  Hi Papa Nopsis
  
  I will start a new thread on the "History Hub" to answer your interests otherwise we will be moderated off ....
  
  I will Title it 19th Century Carmarthen Bay Shipping -
  
  Kind Regards - TA

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• Message 12

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  Posted by Papa Nopsis (U14479902) on Sunday, 11th September 2011

  Good idea the Gwendraeth is so very beautiful in all its moods, and i am fascinated to know where the ships came and went to. there are n't enough research papers on it. WH (Bill) Morris is good. I'll join!

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