Ancient and ArchaeologyÌý permalink
Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Eliza (U14650257) on Sunday, 24th October 2010
...know whether they did or didn't practice human sacrifice? Or was this just Roman propaganda (akin to the paedocidal tendencies of the Carthiginians?!)
Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 2
Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Monday, 25th October 2010
Very likely it was Eliza - but not perhaps in the format that is bandied about.
I also think(not a good historians pitch, however, these are my thoughts,) that G Iulius casar was his own spin Doctor superb. He did not want others dashing off to the islands to claim a wider victory whilst his own frail inroad was on the back burner with the fate of Gaul to resolve. He makes no mention of similar practice in Gaul where Druidism at the time was far stronger. he had for instance had their groves chopped down for the fleet to cross the channel. He had also invaded Helvetia to take on a war lord who ws doubtless a druid cult man - and Caesar also had uneasy relations with the Aedui who also had cult leaders - persons of considerable power and education.
Everyone likes to believe the wicker man bonfire stuff and to make films of such but probably the truth was different. American fascination with cults appears to be not very far removed from the ancestry of its European peasant stock immigrants.
It is recorded that in times of trouble a sacrificial human was hit at the base of the neck by an Ovate Druid Priest and the death throes used to foretell the future. The sacrifice was, apparently, often a volunteer who wanted to serve the tribe.
All of this is written in both old and recent research books but no one lays claim enough concrete knowledge to format a really useful and substantiated text.
As for modern Druidism, I assume it is a rehash of much other stuff, concocted ritual and talking to the trees - and reasonably harmless. Of the three orders, the highest was generally supposed to be highly educated. Robert Graves' book on 'The White Goddess" is a fascinating read. That he is also named as a High Sufi in one of the four orders of Islamic Sufi-ism is as intriguing.
A bit of a ramble - but then so are the known facts.
Regards, P.... more on Carthage another time!Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 3
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 26th October 2010
The bog body of Lindow man almost certainly shows evidence of sacrifice.
As for France, Wikipedia provides these references:
"French archaeologist Jean-Louis Brunaux has written extensively on human sacrifice and the santuaries of Belgic Gaul. See "Gallic Blood Rites," Archaeology 54 (March/April 2001), 54–57; Les sanctuaires celtiques et leurs rapports avec le monde mediterranéean, Actes de colloque de St-Riquier (8 au 11 novembre 1990) organisés par la Direction des Antiquités de Picardie et l'UMR 126 du CNRS (Paris: Éditions Errance, 1991); "La mort du guerrier celte. Essai d'histoire des mentalités," in Rites et espaces en pays celte et méditerranéen. Étude comparée à partir du sanctuaire d'Acy-Romance (Ardennes, France) (École française de Rome, 2000)."Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 4
Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Tuesday, 26th October 2010
mmm, cloudyj, but those sancturies -often clay/stone gate ways with heads placed in niches etc displayed the heads of foes taken in battle... in the south anyway. I know little of norther practice. Their bones were kept apart.
No ancient people seemed free of it. Princes of Persia - there were 11 as I recall? - were sacrificed to the gods by priests after the Battle of Salamis (480BC approx) - though this was widely deployed by many at the time.
Whereas human blood sacrifice changed to animal sacrifice - which is stii wide spread, sacrifce is stiil the word used in praise of young dead warriors who go to war at the behest of their elders - and it was ever thus. The notion was also transmuted to Christian belief in the death of Christ.
Regards, P.Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 5
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Tuesday, 26th October 2010
I am fascinated by the Brythonic 'Celtic' and Druidic culture and early Roman history, but am put off it by many of the oddball offshoots to it, and these new religion-type whimsical folks in sandals.
Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 6
Posted by Eliza (U14650257) on Tuesday, 26th October 2010
"the word used in praise of young dead warriors who go to war at the behest of their elders - and it was ever thus. The notion was also transmuted to Christian belief in the death of Christ."
And of course is showing up in the current most horrific form in suicide bombings - where vicious old men send deluded young ones to their deaths. I really, really do wonder at the deluced youngs ones - how STUPID do you have to be to kill yourself when your 'masters' are saving their own filthy skins....
"Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 7
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 26th October 2010
but those sancturies -often clay/stone gate ways with heads placed in niches etc displayed the heads of foes taken in battle... in the south anyway. I know little of norther practice. Their bones were kept apart. Ìý
I'm afraid I know no more than about Gaul than the wikipedia article which superfuicially (at least) appears properly referenced.
British bog bodies are rare. So human sacrifice may well have been very infrequent - perhaps in response to extreme circumstances only. Wooden or clay models as votive offerings are far more common.
No ancient people seemed free of it.Ìý
Indeed. With classical hypocrisy the Romans themselves carried out human sacrifice in response to Gallic threats in 228, 216 and even as late as 114 BC.Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 8
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Friday, 5th November 2010
I think it was in MJ Trow's "Boudicca" that the author suggested that the Druids may well have practiced some form of sacrifice, but whether it was a widespread or as dramatic as the Romans said, is a different matter.
Clearly something provoked the Romans' disgust, though. Much of it was clearly propaganda in order to justify destroying their power of the Celtic tribes, and their inspried opposition to Rome?Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 9
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Friday, 5th November 2010
Clearly something provoked the Romans' disgust, though. Much of it was clearly propaganda in order to justify destroying their power of the Celtic tribes, and their inspried opposition to Rome?
Ìý
They used similar propoganda about Carthage performing child sacrifice too.Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 10
Posted by Pete- Weatherman (U14670985) on Monday, 8th November 2010
Some exsperts atribute Bog Bodys to the Druids, thay certenly were executed but wather by Druids or not is disputeble, as some think thay were Criminal executions.
Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 11
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Monday, 8th November 2010
I suspect that pinning down what exactly *was* druidism, and to what extent it can be separated from other 'Celtic' religious beliefs/practices is a problem to start with. Their generally elaborate nature means I'm more inclined to regard the bog bodies as sacrifices rather than judicial executions (though the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, of course!)
I've heard it suggested that, ironically, the druids (or other 'Celtic' religious leaders) were driven to carry out more frequent human sacrifices because they were desperate to stop the Romans.
Ultimately I think human sacrifice probably did take place, but garrottes and knives were probably more usually the order of the day, rather than wicker men.
All we can be relatively sure about is that modern druidism bears little resemblance to that of the ancient world. If I may quote Terry Pratchett:
"'No self-respecting High Priest is going to go through all the business with the trumpets and the processions and the banners and everything, and then shove his knife into a daffodil and a couple of plums. You've got to face it, all this stuff about golden boughs and the cycles of nature and stuff just boils down to sex and violence, usually at the same time."Ìý
(Rincewind, illuminating Twoflower on the reality of quaint ethnic religions, in 'The Light Fantastic')Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 12
Posted by Eliza (U14650257) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
Good old TP. Honestly, the guy is worth most of the books on ethics in the world, I'd say! Plus of course he makes it funny....
A very, very humane writer.Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 13
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
Good old TPÌý
I enjoy Twin Probe's postings here too!Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 14
Posted by Pete- Weatherman (U14670985) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
Good old Terry I do'nt live to far from him.
Read all his books.
He dose seem to have a slant on life that meny of us lack.Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 15
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
"I enjoy Twin Probe's postings here too!"
Or as Minette would say, Twin Probes! But seriously, I do agree. Our very own TP's logical writings are preferable to the other, anyday.Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 16
Posted by Wally (U14414065) on Friday, 12th November 2010
"They used similar propoganda about Carthage performing child sacrifice too."
You are indeed correct, the disgust expressed by the Romans in both cases should be taken with a pinch of salt as they regularly carried out culls on children in the Roman empire on economic grounds, and only objected to the linking of the killing of the children to a religion that was different to their own.Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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Message 17
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Friday, 12th November 2010
And the Crusaders and Conquistadores did not sacrifice human life to their god? What makes you think Christendom values human life any higher than the Druids did? Hardly a day goes by without some Khaki Padre blessing a bombing plane, or a Trident missile somewhere.
Link to this forum: Now that Druidism is an official religion (again!), can we...
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