Ancient and Archaeology聽 permalink
Names the Romans knew.
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Message 1.聽
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 18th December 2010
The identification of Roman place names is not so easy as is sometimes made out. A very few names have survived with little mutilation, such as London, Kent (Cantium), and Lincoln (Lindum Colonia); Venta Silurum is indistinctly visible behind modern Caerwent . The survival of the chester, caistor, caster place name elements indicates Roman sites, just as street, stretton, streatham etc is evidence of the roads that once linked those sites.
Rarely a site is identified by epigraphy, Banna (Birdoswald fort) being one example. Artefacts like the Rudge Cup are inscribed with the Roman names of several Hadrian's Wall forts and may have been made quite consciously as souvenirs.
The most valuable resource are three sets of documents: the Antonine Itinerary, the Ravenna Cosmography and the Notitia Dignitatum. All these give lists of Roman sites and the AI seems to have been composed for the benefit of those moving from point A to point B and wishing to know the names of, and distances to, intermediate steps. Sadly spelling is variable and the documents seldom seem to tell exactly the same story.
Finally the names of Roman sites frequently have a meaning which may still be intelligible today. The attribution of Trimontium would be difficult if three hills were not visible from Newstead or indeed if there were no salt springs at Driotwich (Salinae). Unfortunately in Roman Britain there were plenty of 'oak tree glades' so the derivative name, Derventio, has been applied to places as far apart as Malton and Papcastle, in addition to numerous rivers Derwent.
Does anyone have a favourite Roman place name that they would like to mention? My nearest Roman site, the fort at Ilkley, has 'changed' its Roman name from Olicana to Verbeia in the last few years so there is plenty of room for controversy!
TP -
Message 2
Posted by glen berro (U8860283) on Saturday, 18th December 2010
I wonder, TP, what was happening at my (east) end of the wall.
Wallsend was Segedunum, which seems to be a pre-Roman name.
The third, Condercum (Benwell) sounds Roman but the main remains adjacent to it are of a temple to Antenociticus who was a pre-Roman local deity yet was acknowledged by a legate, and a tribune of the army.
Pons Aelius (Newcastle) is one of the few (possibly the only) bridge outside Rome name for an emperor - were they so isolated that they didn't feel the need to ask permission. or simply very homesick?
glen -
Message 3
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 19th December 2010
Hi glen
Segedunum is fairly straightforward, I think. Dunum is a 'Celtic' word for fort or protected settlement. The word survives as Dun in modern place names such as Dunfermline or Dunfries. Camulodunum (Colchester) or 'the fort of Camulos' is a famous example of its use. Sege- is common all over Europe and has been variously interpreted as strong, bold or even victory (German: Sieg = victory). So Wallsend was originally the 'strong fort' or 'the fort where victory occurred'.
Hadrian did name places after himself. Aelia Capitolina was the reconstructed Jerusalem. The really exciting thing about the Aelian Bridge is that it hints that his most famous construction might have been named the 'Aelian Wall'.
TP -
Message 4
Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Sunday, 19th December 2010
Hi TP
As you are aware I am no linguist鈥.
Thought you might be interested in two amongst a number of the following Roman sites near where I live.
Firstly the fort down the road next to a river firstly with its Latin name 鈥淟eucarum鈥, then in Welsh 鈥淎berllwchwr鈥 and finally the English translation of 鈥淟oughor鈥.
The next is a Roman 鈥渃ivitas鈥 with the same set of names, firstly the Latin 鈥淢aridunum鈥, then the Welsh Caerfyrddin, and finally the English translation of Carmarthen.
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 5
Posted by ArweRheged (U14720560) on Sunday, 19th December 2010
Good, one TP.
I'm going to start by challenging the identification of "went" (as in Derventio) with oak glades. I think it comes from the older "ouenta", an Old Welsh or Old Irish word whose meaning is unclear, but which seems to link to water.
The Cumbrian Derventio is associated with Papcastle, which lies on the river Derwent (near the confluence with the Cocker, one of England's more unfortunate river names). My guess is that the relatively common Derwent is another place name survival and that the "went" is the modern rendition of "ouenta".
Matters are confused by the similarity to "venta", a straightforwards Latin word meaning "market". Some tribal capitals seem to have been pretty much planted by the Romans (especially in the west and highland regions) and perhaps they wanted the name nice and clear!
A significant number of Roman place names can be translated (if not located) because of their heavy usage of pre-existing British forms - made easier as many of the words survive into modern Welsh or Irish. I believe that where a name already existed, the Romans kept it and Latinised it - thus Lindon becomes Lindum and Eboracon becomes Eboracum.
All of which takes us to my favourite, Glannoventa, usually (wrongly) associated with Ravenglass on the West Cumbrian coast. I'll lay a tenner that Glannoventa is Ambleside. The blessed David Shotter of Lancaster Uni postulated this, but did so because of one possible reading of Iter X of the ND.
I' might be wrong, but I'm not aware that he considered etymology too. The etymology seems to help - I think the name "glannoventa" is a direct lift from the OW glan (shore/ bank) + ouenta (something to do with water). However, "glanna" is the plural form from glannau (adding "au" pluralises many Welsh words even today). "Ouenta" seems to tag on to fresh water, so I think the name refers to a meeting point of more than one river or body of water. Ambleside Roman fort is strategically located at the confluence of the rivers Rothay and Brathay, just where both disgorge into Windermere. The name fits beautifully. I think that the Notitia Dignitatum also helps a bit.
The same word might also fit a lost fort at Keswick, and this is where the troublesome mileages of the last half of Iter X come to the fore. Ambleside is usually identified as Galava (the next place down the line from Glannoventa in Iter X), which I think (thanks to linguists who know far better than me) means "the wooded place" (from the OW "celli" (grove/trees) and "fa" (single "f" is pronouced "v")). Shotter doesn't like Galava for Ambleside (I'm not sure why), but for me it can work - the north end of Windermere is still well wooded.
Keswick has two possible advantages - it's on the river Derwent (which preserves the "ouenta" element to this day) and it's precisely the right number of Roman miles to a Galavan Ambleside. But I still think Ambleside is the better fit.
And as for the ND - I'd wager it's not an A-B guide. Some of the routes are tortuous (one involves crossing the Pennines twice to get from London to the Wall). Could it be some sort of guide to official hubs - perhaps tax collection points?
Best regards,
A R -
Message 6
Posted by Mick Mac (U5651045) on Wednesday, 22nd December 2010
Does anyone have a favourite Roman place name that they would like to mention?聽
Banavem Taberniae - the birthplace of St. Patrick, the Apostle of Ireland.
This place has been identified with the parish of Tafarn on the island of Anglesea on the basis that the 'em' ending of Banavem has no grammatical meaning and is considered to be the standard reduction for '-ensis', the adjectival form of 'Banavia', universal at the time for denoting place. Anglesea was formerly known as Monavia and the transmutation of 'm' to 'b' is well attested. -
Message 7
Posted by ArweRheged (U14720560) on Wednesday, 22nd December 2010
Interesting theory, MM.
I know Welsh mutates, but to me, "taberniae" looks like a fairly ordinary Latin word meaning "shops" (perhaps a Dark Ages Trafford Centre?).
The banna bit (does it not have a double "n" in the original) is OW for hills - "bannau".
No clues on the "vem" bit, but my uneducated guess at meaning for the whole thing would be something like "market in the hills".
Love to hear your research, though!
Regards.
A R -
Message 8
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Wednesday, 22nd December 2010
Hi Mic Mac
A question that has been raised is whether 'Bannavem Taburniae' is actually a corruption of an original which was Bannaventa Burniae. If you allow for this substitution then two of the name elements are familiar. Banna is the Roman fort of Birdoswald, the name apparently meaning peak or horn. AR has already discussed a possible origin of 'Venta' which is a very common place name element indeed.
Actually a Bannaventa is known, it being thought to be Whilton Lodge, Northampton. This can't be Patrick's birth place which must be on the west sea coast if he was seized by Irish pirates. Perhaps his home was called Bannaventa Burniae to distinguish it from the other Bannaventa. Burniae could be related to *Berniciae (OI bern, gap or pass).
As to where it was; not the foggiest I'm afraid!
TP -
Message 9
Posted by Mick Mac (U5651045) on Wednesday, 22nd December 2010
ArweRheged & TwinProbe,
As I'm sure you are both well enough aware, the debate about Patrick's birthplace is long-standing and the problem is a veritable Gordion Knot.
AR is right about the double 'n' but what is the correct reading of these words?
Patrick has Bannavem Taberniae; Muirch煤 has Bannavem Taburniae.
TP, I have also seen Bannaventa Burniae, Bannaventa Berniae, Bannauenta, Bannauenta Burniae and Bannaventa Berniae.
The suggestion that his birthplace was in Anglesea is not mine. There have been dozens of interpretations and I think the problem is intractable. -
Message 10
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
I enjoy quoting the Victorian antiquary John Camden who believed that A鈥檚 Camelot was based at the surprising location of Maldon, Essex.
His rationale was that Maldon must be old Camulodunum (the name wasn鈥檛 matched to Colchester at that time) and that Camulodunum must be Camelot.
From a personal perspective 鈥 I also wonder about the town name of the place where I live, Billericay 鈥 previously Billerica. This is of unknown origin and I can't help but speculate that it might be Romano-British as there was some Roman industry here. -
Message 11
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Billericay 鈥 previously Billerica. This is of unknown origin and I can't help but speculate that it might be Romano-British as there was some Roman industry here.聽
Recorded as 'Burghesteda' (Burstead) in Domesday, 'Byllyrica' is first recorded in 1291 and thought to be medieval Latin for 'tanhouse'.
The classical Latin of the Romans is quite different from the medieval Latin of the Norman/Angevins, so you would need to check that out. -
Message 12
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Thanks Haesten.
To clarify, Gt Burstead is the name of the Ancient Parish (in part of the country that never did 鈥榲illages鈥)and Billericay a medieval town that developed within that parish.
It would seem odd for me for a town to takes its name from medieval Latin rather than an established local name.
I may be mistaken, there was tanning taking place in the town.
Perplexing really, there were two farms of the same name, one overlooking Romney marsh and one the Somerset Levels.
I believe Biller is German for 鈥榖etween鈥
Place name studies seems such a minefield as you鈥檒l see names stated with such apparent certainty and the more you consider these names the more dubious they seem. -
Message 13
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Thursday, 23rd December 2010
Mr Pedant:
You are in Norman country in your part of Essex, my guess would be dye/tanhouse connected to the medieval church. -
Message 14
Posted by ArweRheged (U14720560) on Friday, 24th December 2010
I suppose that one problem is that spellings in the texts do vary somewhat - which in some cases is perhaps inevitable, due to endlessly compounded copying errors, often on the part of people who didn't know the places personally.
Berniae and taberniae don't present may problems for me - both appear to use a Latin genitive ending, so it's "of the...." something. Berniae could easily be a contraction of the original (modern Kendal is now virtaully never known by it's full name - Kirkby Kendal).
Bannaventa makes life much easier - a straight Latinisation of bannau-ouenta (water by the peaks). I can't say for sure, but *ouenta seems to be associated with fresh, rather than salt water. Bannavem is problematic - my oracle assures me that *em smacks of a fifth declension accusative Latin ending (ye gods - it's Christmas Eve, man!) - so that suggests another bit of the name might be missing.
As to where it is, who knows? But if we are looking for a market town by the fresh water near some peaks, we are looking somewhere where a river hits the sea - perhaps an estuary or something a bit more than a bog standard afon. We need somewhere hilly, or at least with a distinctive ridged hill. Perhaps not mountainous, as really big hills tend not be called *ban.
It needs to be on the west. I know nothing of naval history but am watching recent exchanges on the Post Roman York thread with interest - sails or not, a short sea crossing to Ireland is arguable.
It perhaps has to be within the old Roman province, which I think rules out Stratchclyde. The Lancashire coast is largely flat and can perhaps also be ruled out.
Possible contenders for a hill-backed coastline include pretty much any river outlet between Carlisle and Lancaster (save for the Ravenglass area), or in North Clwyd, on Anglesey or anywhere along Cardigan Bay. One could even make a case for bits of North Somerset, but I think that's too far.
Either way, Merry Christmas to one and all!
Festive regards,
A R -
Message 15
Posted by ArweRheged (U14720560) on Tuesday, 28th December 2010
Errata: For ND, read Antonine Itinerary. I blame the cooking sherry......
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Message 16
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 28th December 2010
Hi AR
Did you drink it, or did someone hit you with the bottle...? Anyway it's nice to know that in the 21st century, exactly as in the 4th, Mediterranean products find their way to Carlisle.
TP -
Message 17
Posted by ArweRheged (U14720560) on Wednesday, 29th December 2010
True enough. But on the down side, we have lost our independence and have become the junior partners in a hideous Anglo/Norse/British construct called the Northwest. Whereas once the poets sang of the deeds of Urien Gwledig and Owain map Urien, we now tend to be the "is there a monster in Windermere" bit on the local news
Arwe Rheged!! -
Message 18
Posted by ArweRheged (U14720560) on Sunday, 6th February 2011
Hi Mr P,
Interesting theory about the court of He Who Must Not Be Named*.
"Cam" is a fairly common Old Welsh place name element - it means "crooked". Camlan is "crooked valley" and at least one Camlan still exists today, very near the probable setting of the Mabinogion's "Dream of Rhonabwy".
Morecambe comes from the same root - "crooked sea".
Regards,
A R
* Curiosity overcomes. Do we ever name him, or is to do so akin to volubly passing wind at a polite dinner party? -
Message 19
Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Sunday, 6th February 2011
Hi AR
In context he can indeed be named (and to be honest is regularly) but the problem has always been the level that he appears at.
Some will argue that he didn't exist, others that he did but in Scotland or Wales or England or Britanny and yet others that if he didn't exist he should have done still more will argue that he is in fact Ambrosius and some others that there must have been two Ambrosius due to the timelines.
So if you wish to move in that direction ......... brace yourself!
Best Wishes - TA -
Message 20
Posted by fascinating (U1944795) on Saturday, 12th February 2011
TP, why no mention of Ptolemy and his Geographia, in which place names are listed and their co-ordinates shown.
I like the old long sonorous Roman names eg Colonia Claudia Victricensis Camulodunensium. The Celtic original Camulodunum is remembered (meaning "the fortress of the god Camulos') but the name shows it is a newly-built Roman colony by the victory of Claudius. The name is history in itself. -
Message 21
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 13th February 2011
Hi fascinating
You're perfectly correct about Ptolemy of course, and for completeness we should perhaps mention the Tabula Peutingeriana which includes a small portion of SE Britain.
TP -
Message 22
Posted by ArweRheged (U14720560) on Monday, 14th February 2011
To my mind, etymology itself gives us an extra arrow in our quiver. I agree with TP's eponymous strategy of looking at both archaeology and written sources, but looking at the structure of place names can also tell us much about what was going on linguistically and socially.
For example, the stubborn survival of Old Irish place name elements allows us to postulate that Old Irish was spoken widely in parts of the country for much of the Roman period. However, it wasn't necessarily spoken by people who had even lived in Ireland itself and perhaps represents the marginalistaion of an earlier tongue as successive waves of invaders and/or setllers and/or influences were brought to bear. The language which became Old Welsh ultimately triumphed in the mainland province, but I do wonder whether some of those early accounts of fighting the Irish did not necessarily refer to fighting people who had come over from Ireland.
Thanks to the sterling efforts of a number of folk infinitely more qualified than I to comment., I think that a very large number of Roman place names in Britain are based on Celtic British names (be they OI or OW). A number of names we know today (especially river names) have a pedigree which was already old by the time Agricola turned up.
The amateur can use this stuff to make some pretty compelling findings. Understanding that "ob" is the OI word for "river" allows one to pretty much discount the traditional association of Mediobogdon ("middle of the river..) with Hardknott Roman fort. It allows us to tie the various Alauna/Alunna/Alione sites to modern rivers - Aln/Allen/Lune/Ellen - all of which seem to contain the element *lon, postulated as either a name of a river god (in which it appears on one inscription in the RIB), or as being derived from an old British word meaning "pure". Possibly it's both.
One of my hobby horses at the moment is trying to crack the Cumbrian section of Iter X of the AI. Etymolgy has been a huge help in this, as there are no fixed sites beyond Ribchester. Making a rebuttable presumption that the distances have been recorded correctly and obliging *Alone to be on the river Lune gives us a clear identification with Low Borrow Bridge (just south of Tebay Services on the M6). Others have postulated the same identification (although often for different reasons), but generally Alone gets identified as Watercrook, near Kendal, which I don't think it can be, because Kendal's river has no *lon element. Worse (or better) still for that identification, Kendal's river - the Kent - is also an old British form and may well be Ptolemy's Coantia.
As set out earlier in this thread, I think Glannoventa (the terminus of the route) is likely to be Ambleside. This is where my theory springs a hole, as it means that the fort recorded between Alone and Glannoventa - Galava - is now missing. I think Galava might mean "wooded place" or "place of the grove" (OW *celli and *fa with a c to g mutation). A lost fort at Shap would fit for the mileages, but would be an odd way to get from Low Borrow Bridge to Ambleside. It would, however mean that the old Mardale corpse road is actually Roman in origin.
Any thoughts or objections gratefully received!!
Regards,
A R -
Message 23
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Monday, 14th February 2011
The OI theory northern England makes sense to me, after all we have the Lough place names in Northumberland and the use of Gaelic in Galloway and the whole of the highlands in recorded history seems a tall order to ascribe to the founders of Dalriada and their contempories.
Also interesting to see the river names, Ob is Farsi for water and there鈥檚 both a river Ob and a river Lena in Siberia.
A proper indo-european term. -
Message 24
Posted by arty macclench (U14332487) on Monday, 7th March 2011
"the use of Gaelic in Galloway"
This has been identified with two distinct phases: one associated with 'knock' and 'slieve' (both hill toponyms) associated with putative Old Irish settlement in the far southwest during the late prehistoric (Roman) and a second phase associated with the diaspora from Viking colonies in Ireland 880-940 when Norse-Gaelic settlers spread eastwards to the mainland litoral of the Irish sea. The word 'airigh' (sheiling) associated with Norse-Gael pastoral farming methods has been identified as a particularly significant marker here. I know of little discusion of O.I. as an 'indigenous' tongue in the SW- although
we can speculate about the geographic relationship of Q-and P-Celtic and whether one preceded the latter in this isles.
Although a late arrival in Galoway, Gaelic is still the dominant language in Galloway place names on the map. There are telling clusters of Norse pn's, a heartwarming number of Brittonic survivals but very few bona fide Old English names although Northern Middle English was establishing itself by 1300. -
Message 25
Posted by TP (U14844798) on Sunday, 17th April 2011
Just came across this. I live in Banwell, North Somerset. The hill my wife and I climb is called Winthill, and it is a full of springs - the water company have used it to supply Weston-super-Mare since the '20s and we even have a well outside our kitchen. So could Ouenta mean well or spring? In which case, maybe the Latin usage as a market might, to stretch a point, be linked. You wouldn't set up a market without a decent water supply.
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