Ancient and ArchaeologyÌý permalink
Emperor Hadrian: Who was he?
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Monday, 21st November 2011
Monday 21st November, 2011. GMT:0947
Re: Emporer Hadrian
With respect to all concerned who know the received history of the Emperor Hadrian (as described on Wikipedia for example); am I right in describing the Emperor Hadrian as originally a Centurian in the 'EAGLE. Legion IX': born in Damascus in present day Syria, with the name 'Andrianuos Marcellous Agricola Wall'. Known as a 'horse - soldier'; he was one of 254 light cavalry soldiers who were part of a 'Roman Legion' numbering 1227 men in total (founded in the 2nd Century AD). Descended from the family of quarrymen, stonemasons and building contractors who founded 'WALL & CO. Ltd' some three thousand years ago in Damascus; he gave his name (as is well known) to the 'rebus' Hadrian's Wall / Britannicus - the 8th Province of the Roman Empire in 192AD. -
Message 2
Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Monday, 21st November 2011
Monday 21st November, 2011. GMT:1253
Re: Emporer Hadrian
With respect to what was written above; as far as I am aware the Emporer Hadrian was recorded as the 'Pro Consul' of Britannicus ie. the Island of Great Britain or the 8th Province of the Roman Empire in the 2nd Century AD.
The 'weird detail' is that 'Pro Consul' has been interpreted in English since then as 'Lord PROTECTOR'; although historically only one man has claimed that title since: the one and only 'Oliver Cromwell LP (Lord PROTECTOR).'
As a foot - note; it should be understood that 'My Lord CROMWELL' saw himself as a 'Military Dictator' during the 'Interregnum' of the 17th Century 'COMMONWEALTH' and as historically 'Andrianuos Marcellous Agricola Wall' (otherwise known as the Emporer Hadrian) saw himself as a 'WAR - LORD' of the 'Scipio' or 'DRUZE', born in Damascus in present day Syria: there is a fundamental relationship in their understanding of themselves. -
Message 3
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 21st November 2011
Hi David
I'm sure you are not unaware of the difficulties your posts pose. They usually represent striking reinterpretations of a historical period or personality. Unfortunately you either give no source for your information, or the source you provide is inaccessible to the rest of us. These posts on Hadrian are very much in this tradition.
The more conventional view (expressed in the Life of Hadrian by Aelius Spartianus for example) is that the future emperor Hadrian was not born in Damascas, but in Italica in the province of Baetica in modern Spain. I would say you are not right in describing him as serving in the Eagle Legion IX. Like all upper class Romans he certainly served in the army, but in legio II Adiutrix. I doubt if he could ever have been a 'soldier', light cavalry or otherwise. A man of his connections would have started his career as a military tribune. He rose to command legio I Minervia in Dacia. Incidentally there was no legion known as Eagle (Aquila). The only legio IX was the Hispana who famously served in Britain.
The emperor's birth name is usually considered to be Publius Aelius Hadrianus. 'Andrianuos Marcellous Agricola Wall' sounds odd. I don't recognise Hadrianus Marcellus Agricola although with this slightly modified spelling I think it would be an acceptable tria nomina. The English noun or surname 'Wall' may well ultimately from the Latin 'vallum' but your use of it here is anachronistic as is your adoption of the style of an English limited liability company to describe some hypothetical ancient middle-eastern builders.
What Hadrian's Wall was known as to the Romans is unknown but the smart money is on 'the Aelian Wall'. I'm not sure what the significance of AD 192 is to you as far as the naming of the Wall is concerned. With the death of Commodus in that year the sequence of 'adoptive emperors' came to an end.
The provincial name is Britannia not Britannicus. On what basis is Britannia the 8th province of the Empire? If provinces created in the principate of Augustrus of later are listed in order of creation Britain must surely come in the low teens? Proconsuls governed senatorial Roman provinces. It surely cannot ever have been correct to call the Roman Emperor 'pro consul of Britain'.
The connections with the Druze and Oliver Cromwell must be left to wiser heads than mine to sort out.
TP -
Message 4
Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
Tuesday 22nd November, 2011. GMT:0947
Re: TwinProbe
As I noted in the original 'OP'; there are many received histories about the Emperor Hadrian: including that posted by Wikipidea.
The information presented by myself is no - doubt bewildering to some, including no - doubt yourself; TwinProbe. However, there are details; such as the surname 'WALL': which I am quite positive about.
For the record; 'WALL' in 'arameric (ancient syrian) is sometimes written wa_l - l. This apparently stood acording to my paternal great - uncle; John Richard Wall (1886 - 1918) / CHRISTCHURCH - Oxford University (1904 - 1908): for 'the space between two lines' and dates back over 8000 years. The 'Romano - British' interpretation dating back to the 2nd Century AD is 'a ditch - forming a boundary'; usually associated with an 'earth - berm' or 'bank' on 'the lea - side'. The most famous example of this technique in construction is the so called 'Offa's Dyke'; sometimes refered to during the period of its build by 'The Kingdom of MERCIA' as the 'Welsh - WALL'. -
Message 5
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011
Hi David
It's not that your posts are bewildering exactly, but they always seem to be more difficult than they need to be. Naturally history is as much about interpretation as fact but, with respect, I have tried to base the points in my post on ancient sources, not on Wikepedia.
In my view, and I am a Roman enthusiast, you are mistaken over Hadrian's name, his place of birth, his military service, his titles, and the correct Roman name for the province of Britain. If these were simple slips (which we all can make) then no one will think the less of you if you simply acknowledge that. If on the other hand you have textual evidence for your views please let us know what this is. and then we can have one of the enjotable exchanges of opinions for which this message board is famous!
As you will know one of the problems that we all have with your posts is that you use unverifiable information as a foundation for your statements. For example, I don't know of your uncle John Richard Wall but if he died in 1918 he could hardly have given you his opinion on the etymology of 'wall' personally. Did he write a book or paper which we all might be able to access? You mention the origin of the word 'wall' in ancient Aramaic and Syrian. Are you yourself a scholar of those languages or is this derivation more of your great uncle's work? Even if 'Wall' is 8000 years old it's an odd name to give a Roman emperor.
The origin of Offa's Dyke has been discussed here on several occasions. Offa of Mercia was a powerful monarch but did he really order the construction of the entire dyke or did he adapt existing earthworks? Other linear dykes originally considered to be post-Roman in date have turned out to be Iron Age in origin.
TP -
Message 6
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
Even if 'Wall' is 8000 years old it's an odd name to give a Roman emperor. Ìý
No. It's an impossible name to give a Roman emporer.
There was no letter "W" in the Latin alphabet at that date. -
Message 7
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
I suppose the sound might have existed even if the letter form did not. The middle word in Veni, Vidi, Visa (I came, I saw, I used a credit card) may have been pronounced like the English word 'weedy'.
What saddens me about David's posts is that it just seems impossible to have an ordinary conversation with him about sources and interpretation and also that so many of his views depend on sources of information that are inaccessible to the rest of us.
Kind regards,
TP -
Message 8
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
Twinprobe,
you say it polite, the gentleman you are.
Kind regards and with high esteem,
Paul. -
Message 9
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
'Twas ever thus!
The person with the idee fixe is always consistent; the rambling disjointed sentences, the haphazard use of capital LETTERS, the mis-spelling of words which a person who genuinely possessed that knowledge would get right, the refusal to name any recognisable source material, the ignoring of constant pleas for a rational discussion,- from EB 44th onwards they are all the same! -
Message 10
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
Raundsgirl,
you make me curious about that EB 44th.
Or are you also starting the way that David...?
Cheers, Paul. -
Message 11
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
Hello Paul, the individual in question is someone whose name strikes panic into members of the Family Trees and History Hub! He styled himself "Eric Brewster 44th" (hence the abbreviation) and his posts were all about his "genealogical super-highway" which took his ancestry back to about the 7th or 8th century (I think). No proper research, refused to name any sources, would never discuss material, etc etc (in fact as I said, just the same!). Drove us all absolutely mad until finally he was banned from the boards. I don't usually mention the name, because the mere thought of him means that PaulaG and I, from the FT board, have to hide under her desk with a blanket over our heads -
Message 12
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
Even if 'Wall' is 8000 years old it's an odd name to give a Roman emperor. Ìý
No. It's an impossible name to give a Roman emporer.
There was no letter "W" in the Latin alphabet at that date.
Ìý A letter for the 'W' sound was one of the additions that the emperor Claudius attempted to make to the Roman alphabet. It didn't catch on.
A Roman emperor would have used Greek as a second language, and Hadrian was a great admirer of Greek culture. But the Greek of his time had also lost the letter for 'w' that had been present in archaic Greek.
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