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The decline and fall of rome

• Message 1. 

  Posted by Retarded_apple (U1289137) on Saturday, 10th September 2005

  hi, i'm a student, and pc gamer who's interested in this period.
  i don't know wether anyone in here has seen the game Rome:total War....(the same software used for the bbc series 'time comander') or the modification project on the internet Rome:Total Realism, but i am a member of the modding community for RTW and was a small part of RTR (a game that made RTW into a more realistic and enjoyable game, www.rometotalrealism.com ).
  there is an expansion pack coming out for RTW called Barbarian Invasion. it focuses on the decline of rome. basicly, i and a few of the comunity have formed a realism mod for BI called 'Imperia Romana'. i am currently on a research mission, i coulnd find much on the bbc main websight so thought i'd see if i could find any history buffs in here. .. does anyone know some good website sources that would be usefull in my research?
  
  thanks

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  Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Saturday, 10th September 2005

  At the risk of sounding old-fashioned and recommending an actual book rather than a website, you could always try Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire". It's a good few years now since I read it, but I'm pretty sure it covers just about everything you could want to know. The language is rather old-fashioned, so it can be a bit heavy going in places.
  
  I do have Rome:Total War and enjoy playing it when I can get my son to stop playing it. Excellent game, so keep up the good work.

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  Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Saturday, 10th September 2005

  Just as a matter of interest what sort of stuff were you looking for, military or political organisation?

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 11th September 2005

  I never respected Gibbon nor his work. We are talking about a historian that thinks that Rome was only the west (perhaps Charlemagne was roman also ???), since he thinks that the Roman empire collapsed in 4th-5th centiries AD and not simply divided into two halfs - the one of which continued some more 1000 years. Not only he fails to poinpoint that, but he also dismisses the glorious Byzantine history as one of eternal .... 'weakness' (that is why in lasted 1000 in the most difficult era for empires), religiousness (that is why Byzantines were by far less fanatics than the catholics or muslims and light years ahead of all in terms of civilisation) and conspiracies (that is why countries like USA had more governors assasinated in 200 years than the Byzantine empire in 1000...).
  
  PS: Imagine someone told Gibbon about the Greek origins of Rome - that patricians talked and wrote in Greek until the 5th-4th centuries BC, that all ancient records of Rome were in Greek and later translated into the 'peoples language', the Latin... pffff... too much work for him to cope with...

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  Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Sunday, 11th September 2005

  With respect, the question is whether Gibbon is a source of information for the fall of Rome against barbarian invasion. I maintain that he is. I don't think he ever claimed to be writing a history of the Eastern (Byzantine) empire.
  
  I would also say that whether Romans spoke Greek or not simply betrays Greek influence, not Greek origins.

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  Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Sunday, 11th September 2005

  Actually I agree with Nick for once although only in relation to Gibbon. Dunno what language Horace, Ovid and Virgil composed in if it was not Latin. Gibbon is repsonsible for the classification Byzantine to differentiate between Classical Rome and its influence on Western Europe and the supposedly debased and corrupted Eastern court. Despite his disregard for the Eastern Empire he is still the main English source for Byzantie studies however. Seems he was taking the arguments used by Latin speakers to deride the Greeks, although as many of the concepts discussed in Roman literature have anticedants in Greek texts perhaps that is what Nick means. For example the idea that the East as the source of wealth and luxury, noted for its corrupting effect on men's spirits causing them to be more effeminate and hence lose divine favour and thus lots of battles was first aired in the fifth century BC as a result of the Greek repulse of the Persians. Herodotus ties luxury to the persistence of Despotism in Asia whereas its absence in Europe was supposed to mean that people were more likly to react to defend their liberties. Of course when the Greeks were subjugated by Rome, Italians were quick to suggest they had themselves succumb to oriental wealth and thus forgone their right to self determination. One might consider Cato the elder's Issaiah like pleas not to overturn the sumptuary laws on account of their wanton women; the deliberately unostentious get up of the Optimates like Cato the Younger as well as Octavian's propaganda against Marc Anthony and Cleopatra. It remained a central undercurrent in the discourse between Latin and Greek speakers for the next few centuries until. Gibbon was well aware of this tradition and even applies it to the contemporary Eastern despotism the Ottoman Calliphate. Mind you when Gibbon was writing Britain was in a period of culture shock as the Nabobs and their Indian derived wealth began to threaten the existing social heirarchy in Britain and thus Gibon was as much concerned about the amount of money going East to pay for fine linins and spices. That was before the Near East became the Middle East and Stalin brought Despotism much closer to home.

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  Posted by walrus (U1806512) on Thursday, 15th September 2005

  Hi RA,
  the url below will take you to what I have always found a very good resource for all things concerning Late Antiquity. Good luck.
  Regards
  Walrus
  www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html

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  Posted by Eusebius (U2100870) on Thursday, 22nd September 2005

  Am a massive RTW fan and think the following books maybe of some help....."The Later Roman Empire" by Averil Cameron offers a good overview of the period 284-430 and covers most of the key points concerned with the end of the "Roman Period". Also try "Byzantium" by John Julius Norwich for a fantasticly enjoyable read on the period 323-802 in the east. Also "Warfare in Antiquity Volume II, The Barbarian Invasion" by Hans Delbruck (Translated by Walter J. Renfroe, jr) is a must when looking at military history during this period.

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