{\rtf1\adeflang1025\ansi\ansicpg1252\uc1\adeff0\deff0\stshfdbch0\stshfloch0\stshfhich0\stshfbi0\deflang2057\deflangfe2057{\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fcharset0\fprq2{\*\panose 02020603050405020304}Times New Roman;}{\f1\fswiss\fcharset0\fprq2{\*\panose 020b0604020202020204}Arial;}{\f208\froman\fcharset238\fprq2 Times New Roman CE;} {\f209\froman\fcharset204\fprq2 Times New Roman Cyr;}{\f211\froman\fcharset161\fprq2 Times New Roman Greek;}{\f212\froman\fcharset162\fprq2 Times New Roman Tur;}{\f213\fbidi \froman\fcharset177\fprq2 Times New Roman (Hebrew);} {\f214\fbidi \froman\fcharset178\fprq2 Times New Roman (Arabic);}{\f215\froman\fcharset186\fprq2 Times New Roman Baltic;}{\f216\froman\fcharset163\fprq2 Times New Roman (Vietnamese);}{\f218\fswiss\fcharset238\fprq2 Arial CE;} {\f219\fswiss\fcharset204\fprq2 Arial Cyr;}{\f221\fswiss\fcharset161\fprq2 Arial Greek;}{\f222\fswiss\fcharset162\fprq2 Arial Tur;}{\f223\fbidi \fswiss\fcharset177\fprq2 Arial (Hebrew);}{\f224\fbidi \fswiss\fcharset178\fprq2 Arial (Arabic);} {\f225\fswiss\fcharset186\fprq2 Arial Baltic;}{\f226\fswiss\fcharset163\fprq2 Arial (Vietnamese);}}{\colortbl;\red0\green0\blue0;\red0\green0\blue255;\red0\green255\blue255;\red0\green255\blue0;\red255\green0\blue255;\red255\green0\blue0; \red255\green255\blue0;\red255\green255\blue255;\red0\green0\blue128;\red0\green128\blue128;\red0\green128\blue0;\red128\green0\blue128;\red128\green0\blue0;\red128\green128\blue0;\red128\green128\blue128;\red192\green192\blue192;}{\stylesheet{ \ql \li0\ri0\widctlpar\wrapdefault\aspalpha\aspnum\faauto\adjustright\rin0\lin0\itap0 \rtlch\fcs1 \af0\afs24\alang1025 \ltrch\fcs0 \fs24\lang2057\langfe2057\cgrid\langnp2057\langfenp2057 \snext0 Normal;}{\*\cs10 \additive \ssemihidden Default Paragraph Font;}{\*\ts11\tsrowd\trftsWidthB3\trpaddl108\trpaddr108\trpaddfl3\trpaddft3\trpaddfb3\trpaddfr3\trcbpat1\trcfpat1\tblind0\tblindtype3\tscellwidthfts0\tsvertalt\tsbrdrt\tsbrdrl\tsbrdrb\tsbrdrr\tsbrdrdgl\tsbrdrdgr\tsbrdrh\tsbrdrv \ql \li0\ri0\widctlpar\wrapdefault\aspalpha\aspnum\faauto\adjustright\rin0\lin0\itap0 \rtlch\fcs1 \af0\afs20 \ltrch\fcs0 \fs20\lang1024\langfe1024\cgrid\langnp1024\langfenp1024 \snext11 \ssemihidden Normal Table;}} {\*\latentstyles\lsdstimax156\lsdlockeddef0}{\*\rsidtbl \rsid78421\rsid157476\rsid158588\rsid215074\rsid275874\rsid280489\rsid395740\rsid607275\rsid621656\rsid741474\rsid741872\rsid878362\rsid934727\rsid984214\rsid993256\rsid1071750\rsid1139250 \rsid1252434\rsid1318844\rsid1325444\rsid1456570\rsid1529598\rsid1577703\rsid1714398\rsid2037534\rsid2057233\rsid2117352\rsid2193610\rsid2257163\rsid2312913\rsid2381867\rsid2428914\rsid2511022\rsid2574129\rsid2588196\rsid2694465\rsid2967812\rsid3019632 \rsid3040070\rsid3096277\rsid3301716\rsid3309042\rsid3566395\rsid3610574\rsid3961067\rsid4003089\rsid4014736\rsid4064399\rsid4206000\rsid4279436\rsid4287441\rsid4392340\rsid4419812\rsid4541171\rsid4730547\rsid4805741\rsid4984435\rsid4988212\rsid5137724 \rsid5207074\rsid5244421\rsid5314160\rsid5334450\rsid5388572\rsid5459287\rsid5464068\rsid5468297\rsid5517622\rsid5521729\rsid5535730\rsid5582549\rsid5647540\rsid5780796\rsid5856923\rsid5864162\rsid5903226\rsid5963991\rsid5979953\rsid6060945\rsid6166894 \rsid6177530\rsid6239841\rsid6241684\rsid6310185\rsid6374486\rsid6376775\rsid6377463\rsid6437376\rsid6440819\rsid6496605\rsid6627601\rsid6750851\rsid6775171\rsid6900712\rsid6976909\rsid7081111\rsid7152143\rsid7166003\rsid7278320\rsid7345223\rsid7362797 \rsid7423726\rsid7502489\rsid7537020\rsid7623229\rsid7700180\rsid7810730\rsid8022637\rsid8212735\rsid8260394\rsid8345402\rsid8655458\rsid8679181\rsid8722696\rsid8794702\rsid8993586\rsid9000209\rsid9007828\rsid9240949\rsid9329807\rsid9392587\rsid9455620 \rsid9456707\rsid9512074\rsid9706341\rsid9716054\rsid9778139\rsid9910810\rsid9913374\rsid9979859\rsid10171976\rsid10232768\rsid10299719\rsid10306581\rsid10308613\rsid10381584\rsid10510062\rsid10637674\rsid10693467\rsid10750224\rsid10761303\rsid10824536 \rsid10948108\rsid10950690\rsid11028281\rsid11413320\rsid11417239\rsid11418768\rsid11671390\rsid11680702\rsid11681403\rsid11758800\rsid11811087\rsid11885103\rsid12071550\rsid12080491\rsid12132990\rsid12133591\rsid12196879\rsid12281500\rsid12323781 \rsid12332735\rsid12452260\rsid12785437\rsid12871132\rsid12915620\rsid12936676\rsid13109167\rsid13135200\rsid13139529\rsid13260260\rsid13444409\rsid13524827\rsid13566303\rsid13594777\rsid13638064\rsid13648330\rsid13653416\rsid13832722\rsid14054083 \rsid14187720\rsid14314761\rsid14319079\rsid14425891\rsid14551690\rsid14574812\rsid14646274\rsid14831379\rsid14901723\rsid14946974\rsid14958969\rsid15022658\rsid15029145\rsid15035870\rsid15095156\rsid15103646\rsid15105585\rsid15209165\rsid15274311 \rsid15490285\rsid15665251\rsid15870799\rsid15881577\rsid15947973\rsid16016797\rsid16187857\rsid16258000\rsid16277142\rsid16324706\rsid16346438\rsid16450588\rsid16454098\rsid16456889\rsid16537437\rsid16541663\rsid16653091\rsid16663960\rsid16673426} {\*\generator Microsoft Word 11.0.0000;}{\info{\title Ouch Podcast #63 \'96 January 2011}{\author slippd02}{\operator slippd02}{\creatim\yr2011\mo1\dy28\hr10\min53}{\revtim\yr2011\mo1\dy28\hr10\min54}{\version1}{\edmins1}{\nofpages16}{\nofwords4739} {\nofchars27015}{\*\company 主播大秀}{\nofcharsws31691}{\vern24615}{\*\password 00000000}}{\*\xmlnstbl {\xmlns1 http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/wordml}{\xmlns2 urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags}} \paperw11906\paperh16838\margl1800\margr1800\margt1440\margb1440\gutter0\ltrsect \widowctrl\ftnbj\aenddoc\donotembedsysfont1\donotembedlingdata0\grfdocevents0\validatexml1\showplaceholdtext0\ignoremixedcontent0\saveinvalidxml0\showxmlerrors1\noxlattoyen\expshrtn\noultrlspc\dntblnsbdb\nospaceforul\formshade\horzdoc\dgmargin\dghspace180 \dgvspace180\dghorigin1800\dgvorigin1440\dghshow1\dgvshow1 \jexpand\viewkind1\viewscale100\pgbrdrhead\pgbrdrfoot\splytwnine\ftnlytwnine\htmautsp\nolnhtadjtbl\useltbaln\alntblind\lytcalctblwd\lyttblrtgr\lnbrkrule\nobrkwrptbl\viewnobound1\snaptogridincell\allowfieldendsel \wrppunct\asianbrkrule\rsidroot14425891\newtblstyruls\nogrowautofit \fet0{\*\wgrffmtfilter 013f}\ilfomacatclnup0\ltrpar \sectd \ltrsect\linex0\headery708\footery708\colsx708\endnhere\sectlinegrid360\sectdefaultcl\sftnbj {\*\pnseclvl1 \pnucrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl2\pnucltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl3\pndec\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl4\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl5 \pndec\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl6\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl7\pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl8\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl9\pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}\pard\plain \ltrpar\ql \li0\ri0\widctlpar\wrapdefault\aspalpha\aspnum\faauto\adjustright\rin0\lin0\itap0\pararsid14425891 \rtlch\fcs1 \af0\afs24\alang1025 \ltrch\fcs0 \fs24\lang2057\langfe2057\cgrid\langnp2057\langfenp2057 {\rtlch\fcs1 \af1\afs20 \ltrch\fcs0 \f1\fs20\insrsid10761303\charrsid14425891 \par }{\rtlch\fcs1 \af1\afs20 \ltrch\fcs0 \f1\fs20\insrsid14425891\charrsid14425891 Ouch Podcast #63 \endash January 2011 \par bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast \par \par Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr \par \par The Ouch Podcast is a download from the 主播大秀. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch. \par \par \par LIZ\tab Do disabled people need special dating websit es of their own? Should blind people be allowed to use a gun? Should people with Cerebral Palsy be allowed to play music on this show? All these questions and more will be answered or at least kicked around a bit in the next 30 minutes. Thank you for down loading us. \par \par [Jingle: From the 主播大秀 in {\*\xmlopen\xmlns2{\factoidname place}}{\*\xmlopen\xmlns2{\factoidname City}}London{\*\xmlclose}{\*\xmlclose} it's the Ouch Talk Show with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr] \par \par Hello and welcome to this edition of the podcast, I'm Liz Carr and I don't actually know where Mat is, so you'll have to bear with me, Damon, any... hold on he's coming. \par \par MAT\tab Hello, sorry. \par \par LIZ\tab Mat! \par \par MAT\tab Sorry, I'm coming, I'm coming. Sorry listeners. \par \par LIZ\tab Where've you been? I had to do the whole front bit on my own. \par \par MAT\tab I'm sorry I got... \par \par LIZ\tab Where've you been? It had better be good. \par \par MAT\tab Look I had a little bit of a situation in the old toilet. \par \par LIZ\tab Oh! \par \par MAT\tab Well I had to go, oh God how can I explain this? \par \par LIZ\tab No I'm sorry. \par \par MAT\tab No, no it's fine. I had to go and... \par \par LIZ\tab Because we couldn't wait. \par \par MAT\tab ... I think the current phrase is download a brown file. \par \par LIZ\tab Okay. \par \par MAT\tab Have you seen the distance between where the toilet and where the paper is in that loo? \par \par LIZ\tab Yeah. \par \par MAT\tab You know how it auto flushes when you get up? \par \par LIZ\tab Yeah. \par \par MAT\tab Well I, in order to reach the paper... \par \par LIZ\tab You have to get up. \par \par MAT\tab Oh... \par \par LIZ\tab Well then tell me because I want to know, I want the visuals, you've got your little arms. \par \par MAT\tab The point is I don't use them for that. \par \par LIZ\tab How do you wipe? \par \par MAT\tab Okay. Well oh God I can't believe I'm saying this. \par \par LIZ\tab Not with your hands? \par \par MAT\tab No that's why I don't need to wash my hands afterwards. \par \par LIZ\tab You just sort of drag it on the seats. \par \par MAT\tab Shall we put it this way my clench technique is particularly good as is my release which is why it's important to always eat plenty of olive oil. \par \par LIZ\tab You've got very short arms so you... \par \par MAT\tab They're listening, Liz, I don't know whether you've... \par \par LIZ\tab Okay. \par \par MAT\tab I don't go around wondering whether your PA does it for you. \par \par LIZ\tab Yes you do! \par \par MAT\tab ... or... \par \par LIZ\tab We all do. I defy you that you don't think I wonder what she does or what does she do when her and her PA go in there, what does she touch and what doesn't... I'm sure, aren't we all fascinated by how we go to the loo, how we have sex, how we eat - we are we can't say it but we are. \par \par MAT\tab We are, listeners, it's true. \par \par LIZ\tab Don't you want to watch blind people eat and go do they go three o'clock, six o'clock, peas at nine? \par \par MAT\tab I have often wondered about our own dear Damon Rose, our blind producer, who's married to a blind woman... \par \par LIZ\tab Exactly. \par \par MAT\tab ... what the ruddy heck do they do at dinner time. Does the dog chop up the carrots? \par \par LIZ\tab I don't know. \par \par MAT\tab What? I don't know. \par \par LIZ\tab And we've not been invited. \par \par MAT\tab I know. \par \par LIZ\tab We've not been invited round for tea. \par \par MAT\tab Here it is, listeners, most of you will be disabled or friends of we're just going to say it like it is because I know it's true, Liz, you are right I do wonder about things about you and a lot of my other disabled friends. But it's questions that I can't ask. \par \par LIZ\tab I feel really liberated. I was angry at you, I'll be honest, because you weren't here at the start of the show I was very angry like, "Okay... \par \par MAT\tab I had a real poo moment in there, so you know. \par \par LIZ\tab So how do... \par \par MAT\tab Oh okay. When it doesn't self flush when I rise up off the bowl, unlike the one in there, and I can actually reach the toilet paper, unlike the one in there, I put a length of toilet paper on... well what would you do? \par \par LIZ\tab I have never... I'm thinking you must have some kind of gadget ... \par \par MAT\tab Well I don't have... \par \par LIZ\tab ... that you carry round in that... because Mat wears like this, consider his little arms he wears like a little specially made waistcoat that he thinks it's all cool because it's leather, and it is it looks good, he looks like he's kind of a sheriff, or gangster. \par \par MAT\tab Without a bottom wiping object in its pocket though Liz. \par \par LIZ\tab Well I'm figuring that in your little holster thing you've got a whole load of little gadgets, you're a bit like Inspector Gadget you press a button and it... \par \par MAT\tab And the bottom wiper comes out. \par \par LIZ\tab That's what I think happens. \par \par MAT\tab No nothing wipes this royal bottom except this royal foot. And if it's in a wee stained public lavatory after having completely papered the bowl... \par \par LIZ\tab You take you shoe off first? \par \par MAT\tab Well of course you do, you don't want to rub street dirt into your anus do you? \par \par LIZ\tab Because then, as you say, if it's a nasty toilet you've got to take your shoes... because surely to take your shoes off is a big deal as well. \par \par MAT\tab Well when you're a thalidomide on the toilet which self flushes when you get off it yes isn't it? \par \par LIZ\tab It takes half an hour... \par \par MAT\tab Can we get off... can we move on please? \par \par LIZ\tab Okay. I'm just... \par \par MAT\tab It's an interesting point but can we move away from me and the toilet? \par \par LIZ\tab Yeah, no. You know what I remember when I was 19 - because I went to mainstream school - and at uni there were only a handful of crips okay but that was my first, "Oh my God there's all the disabled people" and starting to work out that I was a disable d person and felt okay about it but really wondering okay. And I met a disabled woman on a training course, it was like an assertiveness course and I couldn't wait, we had a weekend together, and all the questions I had for her were about "So are you marr i ed? Have you had sex? How do you do it? How do you live on your own? How do you do a job? Do you have PAs?" They were absolutely the nitty gritty, "How do you wipe your bum?" I mean they really were we're not being coarse for coarse sake it's like of cour se we're fascinated because who teaches you that and she had a very similar impairment to me and so with the same limitations. \par \par MAT\tab But we should know better because when I'm approached, because I have been asked this in like pubs, supermarkets, post offi ces, "Excuse me mate, hope you don't mind me asking, but how do you wipe your...?" Or "How do you..." the other one that begins with W and I'm like, you know, you're like, "Get out"... \par \par LIZ\tab Absolutely. \par \par MAT\tab So I mean but we actually want to know just as much as they do. \par \par LIZ\tab That's the problem. I feel it's sort of like a guilty little secret is that I'm fascinated by people, how people do things, and some of it's just interesting because I'm just nosey. And other stuff is like because you've got little a rms or limited reach and I wonder how you do it because this is how I... it's that human condition how do we do things. \par \par MAT\tab The number one question from male wheelchair user none of know if his penis works. \par \par LIZ\tab Yeah. \par \par MAT\tab And I don't like saying the P word unnecessarily but I'm just saying, frankly it doesn't matter either way, but people obsess about that with wheelchair using men don't they? \par \par LIZ\tab No they do and that's... \par \par MAT\tab "Does it work, does it all work down there, is everything okay?" \par \par LIZ\tab I guess it's because we don't see it, we don't see that many of each other and if we do how often is that person... you know, you might see other disabled people but do they have a similar impairment as you. \par \par MAT\tab My lot are okay, the thalidomide lot, because we all basically have got the same body and so do do a lot of things the same and we swap tips and what have you in our little group. \par \par LIZ\tab So you have forums and you have you know or an AGM or a group or whatever? \par \par MAT\tab "Oh do you not get a self flusher" says my friend Daphne. "No" I say "I'm still using the foot method" "Oh how antiquated" she replies. \par \par LIZ\tab He's a footer, he's a brown footer. \par \par MAT\tab Hey everyone we've got a brown foot here. \par \par LIZ\tab One of the old school. I just need to say that at this point... \par \par MAT\tab And you know... go on what do you need to say at this point? \par \par LIZ\tab ... that the producer's head is in his hands going, "Why do I let them pick their own topics of discussion, why, why?" \par \par MAT\tab Our other presenters, yeah, little Simon Minty? \par \par LIZ\tab Yeah. But to be honest what's great is because I've got quite a nice accessible flat is that people often stay at mine because to find a... to pay London prices and "No, no, no come and stay at mine" spare room that's g reat, you get to see how they live - you do. \par \par MAT\tab Have you installed the secret cameras? \par \par LIZ\tab Oh man I've had little people running in and out the house. I had Tanya Leigh staying at mine over Christmas, it was great. Dressed her up as an elf, it was love ly. And this little stick, she's got like a stick thing that looks like one of those things that measures pasta, how much spaghetti you should have. I have no idea what goes in those six holes of differing size. And it has a little hook... no I'm not even being rude I just don't know. And step stools, and they've got folding step stools, little people carry step stools, gripper sticks. How many gripper stick designs do you think there are - millions, millions. \par \par MAT\tab I'm waiting for them to invent is the flipper gripper stick. Because most gripper sticks you have a thumb with which to grip and I have none of the thumb, so where's the flipper gripper stick? That sounds like a poem. \par \par LIZ\tab But you know a lot of people don't have that thumb strength. \par \par MAT\tab And you wonder how do they play a PSI - with their feet? \par \par LIZ\tab It is. \par \par MAT\tab And that's impractical. \par \par LIZ\tab I love it, I absolutely love it. \par \par MAT\tab Top thing that you know that you shouldn't wonder about one of your friends, but notwithstanding do, what is it Liz? \par \par LIZ\tab Oh man. \par \par MAT\tab I'm going to try and think of mine. \par \par LIZ\tab You've really put me on the spot. Do you know what I wonder actually, what I do wonder, it's not about anyone specific, I wonder how other people utilise their PAs I don't mean in a rude way, I think... \par \par MAT\tab You mean how far do they go? \par \par LIZ\tab No I absolutely mean... so I have a way that I know I need my PAs to come in and give me... I can't reach below my waist, so I need them to come in, give me a hand to pull everything down and whatever. Do other people have a different approach? Or I can't reach to wipe I don't have a little gadget and I have a way because you just do. If you were doing it yourself you'd have a way that you'd do it. \par \par MAT\tab "Front to back" I said. \par \par LIZ\tab It is it's more hygienic. \par \par MAT\tab Well we know that. \par \par LIZ\tab You know, again head in the hands, head in the hands. And so I do I have a genuine interest in how other people do things because you think there might be a better way of being assisted to be dressed or go to the loo, I'm sure t his works for me but I've had to work it out over the years, the hard way. And maybe if we did feel free enough to talk about some of these things you could learn. \par \par MAT\tab Funnily enough that happened recently with me and some young people that we've joined w ith the Thalidomide Society we've got something called TAR Syndrome where they basically look like flids, and they're 19. And we're all collectively thinking, "Oh look at them, they don't know yet, we can teach them. And we can cut ten years of struggle" \par \par LIZ\tab [Singing] They are the world. \par \par MAT\tab We can cut ten years of their struggle out by saying, "No, no, no just use your foot" or whatever. \par \par LIZ\tab Absolutely. A whole new generation of brown footers - how exciting. \par \par [Jingle: It may be all like cool and on Facebook and stuff, well while you're there you can go and find our fan page and join it. Tell us if you like the show, talk to other listeners and whatever. Just search for Ouch 主播大秀 and you'll find us.] \par \par MAT\tab He's looking cool, he ain't no fool it's Rob Crossan in the studio again. Hiya Rob. \par \par ROB\tab Hello. What a welcome. \par \par LIZ\tab Of course. \par \par ROB\tab That was amazing. \par \par LIZ\tab We always give our newshound that welcome. \par \par ROB\tab What was it - he's looking cool and he's not old school, what was it you said? \par \par MAT\tab That's better than mine. Forget mine. \par \par ROB\tab Okay right, "He's looking cool and he's not old school." \par \par LIZ\tab Well you are, you're looking good. Rob, your first story, 'Blind people are allowed to kill animals again'? \par \par ROB\tab Yes thank goodness eh? Something we were all getting a little bit worried about. \par \par LIZ\tab We were. \par \par ROB\tab This is from the ((0:11:03.4?)) Times in Louisiana. New laser technology is enabling people to shoot deer, should they wish to. Though previously when blind pe ople wanted to go shooting' why would a blind person want to go shooting - we can talk about this in a moment. But anyway they basically had to have a friend with them who would manually align the gun with the target and then the blind person would have t o guess - is that about right, will the deer drop dead if I shoot it from here? And then the sighted person would tell them. Now this laser technology means that again they have to have the sighted person with them, but the laser technology makes it a hell of a lot more accurate. So basically blind people are going to be killing more stuff in the deep south from now on. A Bill was rushed through Louisiana state legislation... \par \par LIZ\tab Rushed through. \par \par ROB\tab Rushed through and there was an appeal by a fella called Walter Hill who's a completely blind campaigner, him and his wife, so now it means that blind people get to use lasers therefore are going to be a lot more accurate and a lot better at killing deer. \par \par LIZ\tab So it'll be like a red dot or whatever. \par \par ROB\tab It'll be the little red dot on the side of the poor helpless beast. \par \par MAT\tab Well on the one hand having witnessed the disabled bow hunters of America once failed to get the clean kill and shoot the poor a nimals in the gut and watch the protracted death that happened, we all want a clean kill, for the laser to be on the heart of the stag. But on the other hand, eh - why do they want to do that? \par \par ROB\tab I can't really see the satisfaction, I'm not completely b lind, but visually impaired I was in Namibia about ten years ago, I went on a friend of mine's uncle's farm and jackals - big pest, big pest to farmers apparently - so he let me shoot a jackal. I tried there was one probably about as far away as I am from you, maybe about three foot, and even then it was a poor shot. \par \par MAT\tab Where was the laser technology when you needed it? \par \par ROB\tab There was no laser technology. All that happened was that the guts of the jackal fell out and then one of the farmers had to go out with an axe and finish it off. \par \par MAT\tab Fifteen miles away when he found him. \par \par ROB\tab Yeah. I thought it was one of those things that I don't want to watch a farmer finish off a jackal with an axe but I should watch this because this is going to help me somehow. \par \par LIZ\tab The things we learn about you every month. \par \par MAT\tab Finish off a jackal with an axe in Namibia, if you please. \par \par ROB\tab And then I wished I hadn't watched it because I thought it might sort of help me somehow but it hasn't, it just gave me nightmares. \par \par LIZ\tab No wonder you're damaged. \par \par MAT\tab Is it a cultural thing like... \par \par ROB\tab What killing jackals with axes? \par \par MAT\tab No shooting stag in Louisiana is it like, for instance, amongst me and my showbiz pals a blind person might want a legal right to cross dress? \par \par LIZ\tab You can't compare shooting stag with lasers to putting on women's clothing? \par \par MAT\tab Why not? \par \par ROB\tab In Mat's world clearly you can. \par \par LIZ\tab Yes clearly it is. \par \par ROB\tab What about shooting deer whilst wearing women's clothes. \par \par LIZ\tab Cross hares and facial hairs, what's going on? \par \par MAT\tab I don't know of a state in the land that wouldn't permit that! \par \par ROB\tab Is there a transvestite rifle club? If so... \par \par MAT\tab Not for blind people there isn't. \par \par ROB\tab Yeah it's just a step too far isn't it? \par \par MAT\tab I think so. \par \par ROB\tab I don't know. If I was completely blind, which I'm not so therefore I'm speaking from a position of complete ignorance. \par \par MAT\tab I'd like to point out, Rob, that you often mention how not completely blind you are. I like that. \par \par ROB\tab Because I can see you mocking me, not only can I hear you mocking me, I can see it. \par \par MAT\tab I thought you said he couldn't see it, Liz? \par \par LIZ\tab But Mat just to say there is a little red light on your forehead at the moment. I don't know if that's from Rob or the producer I can't tell. \par \par ROB\tab They love it in the deep south it's a sportsman's paradise so I guess why shouldn't blind people go and shoot deer if they want to. \par \par LIZ\tab So is this just equality then, Rob? \par \par ROB\tab Well I presume so but for me the idea of shooting is you actually want to see the beast that you've just slaughtered fall to its death, even though it was horrible like the jackal. \par \par MAT\tab Is that bit.... \par \par ROB\tab If you're not even seeing that then all you're really getting is the sound of a bullet going off. \par \par LIZ\tab All you're really doing is pulling a trigger aren't you? \par \par MAT\tab Yeah you could say that. \par \par ROB\tab Well no, you're not even pulling the trigger I don't think. \par \par LIZ\tab Really? \par \par ROB\tab No I think the sighted person is aligning it for you and then maybe you are allowed to shoot the trigger. \par \par LIZ\tab So essentially once the sighted person goes, "There's a deer over there, hold on I'll line it up... \par \par ROB\tab Shall I shoot it for you? \par \par LIZ\tab ... and shoot it for you?" They just want shooting PAs. \par \par ROB\tab It's like having a butler. \par \par LIZ\tab Or butlers yeah. \par \par MAT\tab And they go away feeling like a real person. \par \par ROB\tab A deaf butler. \par \par LIZ\tab I told someone to shoot something for me. \par \par ROB\tab And they did. \par \par LIZ\tab I'm empowered. What's next month - blind people will be bus drivers? Oh what a silly old world we live in. \par \par MAT\tab It's a silly, silly world and very special. Special people do they need special dating sites, Rob? What's going on? \par \par ROB\tab I don't know, apparently so. This is a blog from The New York Times about the new glut I think is the... would that be the noun - glut is that right? \par \par LIZ\tab It's a lovely word. \par \par MAT\tab It's a nice word. \par \par LIZ\tab Use it anyway. \par \par MAT\tab It's woody, it's a woody word isn't it? \par \par LIZ\tab Hm with cinnamon overtones. \par \par MAT\tab Moving on. \par \par ROB\tab Anyway, these dating websites they're all over the place. There's now apparently specific dating websites for HIV, paralysis, Parkinson's Disease - and get this - Herpes. Yes Herpes. \par \par MAT\tab Well it makes sense. It makes sense. \par \par ROB\tab And there's one site called 'Dating for Disabled' it's got 12,000 members, several marriages, many long term relationships. And it's a funny one though isn't it because I've done a little bit of online dating in the last few months, I'm a single man again. \par \par MAT\tab Now that you're very single. \par \par ROB\tab And it's one of those things where do I actually say upfront, yeah alright I'm visually impaired. \par \par MAT\tab But I'm not completely blind. \par \par ROB\tab Yeah, thank you. Or do I just sort of wait until I see them and then wait until they notice and then tell them, because I feel that if I did that maybe I'd be sort of frauding them somehow. \par \par LIZ\tab And what have you done? \par \par ROB\tab I've basically said nothing until it's sort of naturally come up in the conversation anyway. I certainly didn't say, "You might want to go out on a date with me, but you must be aware that I do have a disability" because I think doing that... \par \par LIZ\tab Maybe speaking like that may be more of a problem. \par \par ROB\tab It's more of a sign of an insecure person who loathes himself, but that was the idea. \par \par MAT\tab But when that moment happens in, presumably, the pub, when you come back from the loo have they gone? \par \par ROB\tab No. I did do that to a girl once though. \par \par LIZ\tab No. \par \par MAT\tab Oh why, Rob, why? \par \par ROB\tab She went to the loo and I ran away. \par \par MAT\tab Why? \par \par ROB\tab And this was in New York actually. \par \par LIZ\tab Because she said she was blind probably. \par \par MAT\tab "But I am totally blind" she says. \par \par LIZ\tab She was totally blind and that's offensive. \par \par ROB\tab It was awful because the entire bar saw me walk out and the barman even shouted after me, "Hey man she really liked you." \par \par LIZ\tab No! \par \par ROB\tab Just as I was walking... \par \par MAT\tab That is horrible. \par \par ROB\tab I was a bad man. Did some bad things in my youth. \par \par MAT\tab I don't want to ask, but I have to - what did she do to make that happen? \par \par ROB\tab Oh I just found her incredibly clingy and she started talking about babies. \par \par MAT\tab Oh fair enough. \par \par ROB\tab That was why I... \par \par LIZ\tab On the first date. \par \par ROB\tab Yeah that's why I decided to leave. \par \par LIZ\tab Would you use a special dating site, Rob? \par \par ROB\tab What for people with Albinism? \par \par LIZ\tab Yeah. \par \par ROB\tab Probably not, no I don't think so, again it's going back to what I've talked about before about the Albinism fellowship why would I want to go on a camping trip with a load of people just because they've got Albinism? Why would I want to date a girl... what makes me think... If there were a loads of other connections and loads of other things if we'd read each other profiles or emailed each other and we had loads of other stuff in common and I fancied her, then yeah for s ure. But just going on a site where I'm limiting myself to only ever dating people with Albinism I think that's a really myopic way to lead your life. \par \par MAT\tab Playing devil's advocate, what's wrong with people with Albinism don't you want to be treated as a f ully rounded hunky guy worthy of dateage - sic? And if so, and if you do they do, and what's wrong with them because what's wrong with them is wrong with you. \par \par ROB\tab No that's complete nonsense. Absolute twaddle. I don't understand why people would limit th emselves to just going... I think maybe it's because people are a little bit insecure and they're a little bit scared that people who don't share their disability or at least have an understanding of disability are going to be somehow hostile or unsympath etic or even mock them for it and... \par \par LIZ\tab I guess you don't have to worry about the stuff you were talking about whether to declare or not to declare, I guess you don't have to do that on a say a dating site. \par \par ROB\tab Certainly not, they already know. \par \par LIZ\tab I remember using dating sites in the past and I have used disabled... \par \par MAT\tab Specialist. \par \par LIZ\tab Specialist, yeah absolutely. \par \par ROB\tab But only, exclusively? \par \par LIZ\tab No both. I've used mainstream ones and disability specific ones and what was really funny is when you do the disability ones is if anybody who's not disabled approaches you that's the sort of... it's like... \par \par ROB\tab It's like a... \par \par LIZ\tab "Why are you on here, what are you after?" Automatically so in actual fact when I went on there... \par \par ROB\tab So it's almost like suspicious. \par \par LIZ\tab Yeah. \par \par ROB\tab You're not flattered at all. \par \par MAT\tab A stalker. \par \par LIZ\tab I think that would have been fine on all the other dating sites but when a non disabled person is hanging round the disability ones it just feels a bit like... \par \par ROB\tab It feels a bit weird. \par \par LIZ\tab It just felt a bit seedy that so I didn't like that. \par \par MAT\tab Dave, devotee... \par \par LIZ\tab Well you know... \par \par MAT\tab ... 37. \par \par LIZ\tab I don't think it's a good reflection on them or me but they were yeah... \par \par ROB\tab I think that's an awful indictment of how the insecurity issues that so many people with disabilities have - for what possible reason could a non disabled person want me. He's probably just a sick carer who got struck off the list. \par \par LIZ\tab But on most cases they were. \par \par ROB\tab How horrible when reality gets in the way of my sanctimonious pontificating, I really hate that when that happens. \par \par LIZ\tab Buy hey it all works itself out in the wash doesn't it? \par \par MAT\tab Hm it's a raging debate though. \par \par ROB\tab What about you, Mat, is there a thalidomide... well there's not enough thalidomide people is there to have a dating site. \par \par LIZ\tab They know each other. It's called the AGM. \par \par ROB\tab Leave me alone, Dave. \par \par MAT\tab No I've already done the two I wanted to so... and that was in 1987. \par \par LIZ\tab So you got your flid wings as such. \par \par MAT\tab I've got my flid wings. \par \par LIZ\tab On that note, Rob, good to see you. \par \par ROB\tab Yeah not so good to see you but at least I'm getting paid. See you next month. \par \par LIZ\tab Until next time. \par \par ROB\tab Bye. \par \par MAT\tab Thanks very much, Rob, not totally blind, Crossan. \par \par ROB\tab You're damn right. \par \par [Jingle: It's great working with Mat and Liz, they can say horrible things about disability and it's okay because they're disabled. People think they're being ironic but actually this show is just one big hate crime - hilarious if you think about it.] \par \par MAT\tab Liz, who's the incredibly handsome guy over there? \par \par LIZ\tab Mike Oliver is with us here today. No not the disabled academic one, you're another one, Mike yeah? \par \par MIKE\tab Yeah apparently I'm a boxer as well on google. I did that incredibly egoistical thing where you google yourself. \par \par MAT\tab I've never done it. \par \par LIZ\tab How many pages did you get to before you decided to stop? \par \par MIKE\tab I got to like the 16th which is quite far in I think for somebody, but yeah I'm a boxer and an academic like you said. And I'm also a musician which is me. \par \par MAT\tab Indeed and you're here to play some live music for us in a bit, and we're looking forward to it. But, first, tell us a bit about yourself - where you're from? \par \par MIKE\tab Well basically I'm a musician, I'm from Swindon. \par \par MAT\tab I'm so sorry. \par \par MIKE\tab I know it's not brilliant is it? \par \par MAT\tab No about being a musician. \par \par MIKE\tab And I do kind of folky acoustic music at the moment with the guy who's here today, Ollie. \par \par LIZ\tab Are you a musician fulltime or are you studying or working? \par \par MIKE\tab I study at college but if somebody asks I'd be a musician even though I make no money whatsoever but I don't think anybody does at the moment. \par \par MAT\tab It's part of being a musician isn't it normally? \par \par MIKE\tab Yeah exactly. \par \par MAT\tab And when you write songs do you write the lyrics first or do you write the music or does Ollie write the music I mean what...? \par \par MIKE\tab It really I mean it kind of really depends. We've done it both ways like sometimes he's like the kind of person who just sits and just plays and so if he's got... I'll just stop him sometimes and it'll be like, "What was that, that was really cool?" \par \par LIZ\tab And do you play anything as well? \par \par MIKE\tab Well I can kind of play base but because of the CP thing which I assume will get mentioned in a later question, it's inhibiting. \par \par LIZ\tab We were going to avoid it. We always avoid talking about people's... \par \par MAT\tab Oh no we don't do that. \par \par LIZ\tab Yeah absolutely. \par \par MAT\tab Do you play live? \par \par MIKE\tab Yeah we... \par \par MAT\tab Whereabouts? \par \par MIKE\tab Well around Swindon we've had a few gigs. We've had one gig in Milton Keynes but basically that's what we're trying to do at the moment is break into the 'Swindon scene'. \par \par MAT\tab Well as everybody knows if you really want to break into the 'Swindon scene' you have to come on the Ouch disability podcast. \par \par MIKE\tab Well yeah that's it every opportunity's an opportunity isn't it? Clich\'e9s work don't they? \par \par LIZ\tab But I love... I was reading that you actually had a band at school so this isn't your first... \par \par MAT\tab Oh yeah this is good. \par \par MIKE\tab Okay. So basically I'm only 18 so when I was 15 - long story short - I approached a guy who worked at the school and I was like, "Hey I want to be in a band." And so he went to the person who ran the unit for the people with di sabilities at the school. So basically what happened is we did this band and we were called the PIs for the physically impaired. \par \par LIZ\tab I love it. \par \par MIKE\tab Which everybody finds really funny but it wasn't like a really deep thing, it was just like yeah. \par \par MAT\tab The PIs. \par \par MIKE\tab I was like it doesn't matter we're just going to call ourselves that. \par \par LIZ\tab And what sort of music did you play, what songs? \par \par MAT\tab What were they called? \par \par MIKE\tab What? \par \par MAT\tab The songs. \par \par MIKE\tab Oh we did... they were like all really negative titles because I was going through a bit of a punk phase, like I grew up with lots of Blink 182 and stuff. \par \par MAT\tab But were they about disability like, "Aagghh I'm angry." \par \par MIKE\tab There was one called Go Away that was kind of a... \par \par LIZ\tab Every teenager writes a song called Go Away. \par \par MIKE \tab No but it was more specific than that. I mean nobody listened to my lyrics because I was just kind of shouting. But it was kind of like, "Don't patronise me, don't categorise me I'm just who I am". \par \par MAT\tab And now apparently I have to tell you right here and now, Mike, that I was and sometimes still am a drummer. In the notes it said you clashed with the drummer. Could that have been because of your monstrously enlarged ego and not agreeing that all songs should speed up in the middle? \par \par MIKE\tab Probably. It was more like this guy without - I mean I love him, we had our differences... \par \par MAT\tab They hate each other. \par \par LIZ\tab Of course. \par \par MIKE\tab This guy had never heard of Phil Collins obvious ly because he was like, "Well I'm a drummer I don't have to write anything." And I was like, "What? If you don't like what I write, you write something." He was like, "No I'm a drummer." And then we never got past that. And we were just two really big per s onalities and we just clashed. And then we had kind of a bassist who played base on a keyboard which is complicated anyway, but it just got round us finding a bassist basically. And he got caught in the middle of it all and then... Because they were, I sh ould say as well, they were younger, they were like in Year 8 or something. \par \par MAT\tab Did it come to blows, Mike? \par \par MIKE\tab Almost. \par \par MAT\tab Was it a crip fight at school? \par \par MIKE\tab Actually no, there was this guy in our band who was like he... \par \par LIZ\tab Was it like Timmy and Jimmy that's all I'm thinking so far? \par \par MIKE\tab He couldn't really play anything so all he used to do was just play a tambourine and he was in the band, he had his place right? \par \par LIZ\tab Patronise... \par \par MAT\tab And you hear it all here, this is the music industry in one soliloquy my friend. \par \par MIKE\tab So he was like, he goes, "Sorry I didn't mean to hit you I had a fit." Now I can tell the difference. \par \par MAT\tab This is a comedy sketch waiting to happen. Shall we do the quick questions? \par \par LIZ\tab Shall we move on with the quick questions? \par \par MAT\tab Yeah come on. \par \par LIZ\tab Are you ready, Mike? \par \par MIKE\tab Yeah, yeah. \par \par LIZ\tab Okay. Well in three words how would you sum up your school days? \par \par MIKE\tab Slow, lonely and pointless. \par \par MAT\tab And bearing in mind we're on the 主播大秀 what's your favourite joke? \par \par MIKE\tab Oh God we're on the 主播大秀 aren't we? What do you call a guy who hangs around with musicians? A drummer. \par \par LIZ\tab Coffee or fruit juice? \par \par MIKE\tab Coffee. \par \par MAT\tab Not funny. That was not funny. \par \par LIZ\tab Mat, it's not about you. \par \par MAT\tab Crisps or olives, Mike? \par \par MIKE\tab Crisps. \par \par LIZ\tab The first thing I'll do when I get home today is...? \par \par MIKE\tab Brag about being on the 主播大秀. \par \par MAT\tab If I could be an animal I'd be...? \par \par MIKE\tab A leopard. \par \par LIZ\tab If I could live in another country I'd choose...? \par \par MIKE\tab America. \par \par MAT\tab TV or internet? \par \par MIKE\tab Internet. \par \par LIZ\tab Disabled persons' railcard or young persons' railcard? \par \par MIKE\tab Young persons' railcard. \par \par MAT\tab Drummers are better than lead singers because...? \par \par MIKE\tab They sing. \par \par MAT\tab No I was joking. That's the quick fire questions done. \par \par LIZ\tab No. \par \par MAT\tab No? \par \par LIZ\tab People who like Mike Oliver's music also like...? \par \par MIKE\tab Frank Turner, Blues music, honesty. \par \par LIZ\tab Ooh! \par \par MAT\tab Honesty! \par \par LIZ\tab It's quite deep. \par \par MAT\tab Oh dear. Right then honest Mike Oliver. \par \par LIZ\tab Or is honesty a band? \par \par MAT\tab Isn't it an album by Beyonce? \par \par MIKE\tab Is it? \par \par MAT\tab No. \par \par MIKE\tab I don't listen to Beyonce so I will... \par \par MAT\tab Oh well that makes all of us. Okay. \par \par LIZ\tab And if we want to find out more, listen to your stuff where can listeners tune into? \par \par MIKE\tab Well I've got a Reverbnations site which is just kind of it's moving on from MySpace. So it's Reverbnation/mikeolivermusic. \par \par MAT\tab Great. \par \par LIZ\tab You can get that on the Ouch website I'm sure. \par \par MAT\tab Stay there, Mike, we're just going to do a little bit of housekeeping and then we'll be back to hear you and Ollie play. \par \par LIZ\tab In the meantime thanks to the production team today: Damon Rose, Dan Slipper, Emma Tracey and Chris Muir on the faders. We'll be back in early February. \par \par MAT\tab Now cue Mike, what are you going to play for us Mike? \par \par MIKE\tab It's called Pay No Mind. \par \par MAT\tab Until next time, listeners... \par \par MAT & LIZ\tab Goodbye! \par \par [Playing music]}{\rtlch\fcs1 \af1\afs20 \ltrch\fcs0 \f1\fs20\insrsid14425891\charrsid14425891 \par }}