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TX:Ìý 10.03.20Ìý 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý KEVIN CORE

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White

Good evening.Ìý In Touch ranges far and wide tonight.Ìý An intriguing study from a university in Western Australia via an Ethiopian blind school to a forgotten genius of 18th century Barnsley.

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Clip

Scholars at the time debated whether or not blind people were more likely to be atheists as a result of their presumed bitterness against God for their condition.

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White

We’ll find out more about the remarkable life of Nicholas Saunderson a little later in the programme.

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But first, we know not to believe everything we see online, so, when we started to notice discussions about the idea that early blindness could be some kind of protection against schizophrenia, we were sceptical.Ìý But we checked it out and it seems the chatter has a basis in fact – there is serious research taking place into the idea that congenital blindness and schizophrenia just don’t mix.

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Professor Vera Morgan is Head of the Neuropsychiatric Epidemiology Research Unit in the University of Western Australia.Ìý She told me that there’s been anecdotal references to this from doctors since the 1950s and she explained how she’s used big data to try to establish the truth.

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Morgan

We’ve got data for about 500,000 individuals who were born in Western Australia between 1980 and 2001.Ìý We then went back and linked these children to a number of registers where we could search for cases of cortical and peripheral blindness.Ìý We only included children who were either born with blindness or who had developed blindness aged six or under.

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White

And what did you find?

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Morgan

None of the children with cortical blindness had developed schizophrenia, nor had they developed any other psychotic illness.Ìý Whereas eight of the children with peripheral blindness had developed a psychotic illness other than schizophrenia and a smaller number had developed schizophrenia.

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White

Given the relatively small number of children who experience early blindness and congenital blindness in the Western world, how surprising would it be that a particular condition didn’t occur at all?

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Morgan

So, at the moment our numbers are small even with a large database.Ìý Because of the rarity of the event what we wanted to do was to present the numbers to say – we’re finding the same thing that other people have found only using case studies but the important thing is, I think, to be able to replicate this on a much larger dataset, so, we’re got enough power in the sample to truly test the hypothesis.

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White

It’s interesting enough now and convincing enough to do more research – that’s what you’re saying?

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Morgan

Absolutely.Ìý What we’ve found with the big data is a pattern that echoes what had been reported using case histories but now it’s really important to take it a step further and re-analyse the data on a larger dataset or with combined data.

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White

Do we know why people born with congenital blindness or having blindness very early on – do we know why they might be immune to schizophrenia?

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Morgan

What people are suggesting is that it’s a question of neuroplasticity.Ìý So, if you block one neuropathway another one opens up.Ìý And what they’re suggesting is that the neuropathway that’s blocked with congenital or early cortical blindness may set up another one which actually may have a protective function, so that you basically protect people from getting schizophrenia through this new pathway.Ìý So, it may build strength in areas where people with schizophrenia may have deficiencies.

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White

It does stem from this idea, which perhaps blind people used to poo poo rather, that we had compensations, which people thought perhaps was an idea that maybe – that had a religious base but not a scientific base but now we kind of know that there is a scientific base.

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Morgan

Exactly, yes.Ìý

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White

Could this be used somehow to give us an insight into how schizophrenia itself works and possibly even combat it?

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Morgan

These are very, very early days but it’s actually, for me it’s kind of – it’s exciting because in the work that we do we’re always looking at risk factors, these are all the negative things that are associated with schizophrenia.Ìý And for once there’s this signal out there that says that this is a resilience factor and it’s for different kinds of researchers to really sort of delve into the neurobiology of this kind of protective mechanism.Ìý But if we can do that, we may be able to indicate future targets for intervention but also for prevention.

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White

Professor Vera Morgan.

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Now, recognition for one of our most striking guests of last year.Ìý Remember 12-year-old Hester Poole from Bath, she became so involved in a fundraising project for Ethiopia that she ended up visiting and joining classes at a blind school, taking part in a film about her visit and helping to raise almost £30,000.

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Street noises

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Poole

That was basically every day life on the streets of Addis Ababa and Mekelle.Ìý So, there’s very little sort of traffic control, there are no sort of lines on the roads, no traffic lights or anything, it’s all just one big sort of colossal mess with cows and I saw sheep being walked liked dogs by their owners.

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White

So, did you find out how blind people do cope in that kind of environment?

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Poole

Your friends hold on to you and you hold on to them and that’s how they do it.

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White

Now you went to the school for visually impaired children in Mekelle, tell me about your impressions there, I mean can you remember what it was like just walking in?

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Poole

They gave me a really, really nice welcome and I could see straightaway that these were really happy children.Ìý So, we did some dancing and my impressions were, when I walked on to the uneven ground, that it was just very inaccessible for a visually impaired person and I could tell that straightaway.Ìý And they’d only just built a wall to keep the hyenas out and there were thistle bushes and just uneven rocks and an open drain where the children play football.

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White

Now you mentioned how difficult, how basic, some of the equipment was and yet there are examples, aren’t there, of blind women, in particular, who’ve been really successful and I think you met one of them didn’t you?

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Poole

Yes, I met someone called Yetnebersh but we called her Yeti and she is a blind lawyer working for disabled rights in Ethiopia.Ìý She invited us for dinner and at her house, over dinner, I did ask her a few questions about what she does.Ìý We did decide together that we don’t want to be regarded as blind people as a miracle, we just want to be treated as everyone else because some people think – oh she walked down a flight of stairs, that’s amazing – and that’s not exactly what we want, we want to do the same things and just because we do them adapted doesn’t mean that we are special.

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Nigussie

Okay, we are ready.

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Poole

So, how did you become blind at five years old?

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Nigussie

That’s an interesting question.Ìý I don’t know the how but I think I had some medical complications that were not able to be fixed by the time because I was living quite far from the city, like around 680 kilometres away from the city, so there was no medication at all.Ìý So, I remember I had a fever and I remember I was sometimes unconscious, so I was so weak, so I was very close to death.Ìý Death didn’t succeed in taking me so finally blindness got me.

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Poole

And why do you say going blind was like winning the lottery?

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Nigussie

Ah interesting, you have really researched a lot.Ìý Because in the area where I come from early marriage for girls is like the norm.Ìý So, my mum was married when she was 11 and she gave birth to me when she was 14.Ìý So, had I not been blind I would have got early marriage, so I would have never been educated and so I would have never been the Yetnebersh who I am today.Ìý So, I just tell people I have won a lottery when I was five, which made me a billionaire.Ìý The reason I’m picking the billionaire number is that we’re more than one billion persons with disability, so, I only could belong to the billions because of this lottery, which I won when I was five years old.

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White

That’s Yetnebersh Nigussie.Ìý Pretty impressive woman.

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Poole

Yeah, it is inspirational but not because she is blind necessarily, it’s just how she deals with life is so incredible.

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White

And then there was the centrepiece of your trip, the thing you actually went for, amongst other things, that was the run.Ìý Tell me about that.

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Poole

Yeah, that was a 5K run in Addis Ababa.Ìý So, we had to go from Addis Ababa to Mekelle to visit the blind school and then we went back to Addis Ababa for the 5K run.Ìý And it’s the women’s first run and it’s to promote women’s rights in Ethiopia and that was a fundraising run.

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Actuality

Hester

Oh, it was one of the most physically and mentally exhausting things I’ve ever done, so yeah, really exhausted.

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Interviewer

And Charlotte, how was it for, what were the challenges?

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Evans

I think just having to talk the whole time and the heat is so intense that I think, yeah, getting your words out and checking that Hester’s okay and making sure she’s still positive, I mentally was draining myself.

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Interviewer

How was the atmosphere?

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Evans

Oh it’s so busy.

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Hester

Yeah, it was electric.

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Evans

There’s so many people isn’t there, I spent most of my time saying left and right and weaving through people – it was pretty cool, I’m so proud of you and I’m so glad and honoured you got me to come and do it with you, so thank you.

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Hester

[Groaning]

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White

[Laughter]

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Hester

That pretty much sums up my feelings about the whole run.

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White

And your mum is rather unkindly laughing.

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Hester

Thank you so much, you did it too.

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Sarah

I did, I was exhausted.

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Hester

I beat you.

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White

You did sound absolutely shattered.Ìý And that was – you were with your guide Charlotte, Charlotte Evans.

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Hester

Yeah, she’s my ski coach as well.

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White

Are you going to keep up your links with the Mekelle School?

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Hester

Definitely, I’m now a youth ambassador for the charity and I definitely want to go back one day to visit all my old friends because I have made some really incredible connections from March.Ìý So, yeah, and I’m definitely going to keep campaigning for disabled rights, just like Yeti.

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White

We’ll be keeping you posted about Hester because as a result of that trip she’s been shortlisted for a Bond International Development Award, given to honour outstanding humanitarian work.

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And if you’re looking for other blind people who’ve broken the mould, perhaps the place to go is the 18th century.Ìý Blind Jack of Knaresborough who rode around on horseback building roads.Ìý Polymath and worldwide traveller, James Holman and Nicholas Saunderson.

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Well, if you’re scratching your head so was I but he’s now the subject of a musical about to tour the North of England.Ìý He’s played by visually impaired actor, Adam Martin, and directed by Andrew Loretto, also with a visual impairment.

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I’ve been talking to them both and I asked Andrew – who was he?

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Music

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Loretto

Nicholas Saunderson was an extraordinary man who was born in 1682 in South Yorkshire, near Penistone and he was born into very humble background but he lost his sight in his first year of life due to smallpox.Ìý Gradually, over the course of his boyhood, it was revealed that he was a natural mathematical genius, he just had a natural talent for numbers.Ìý So, with support from friends and local tutors he went on to Cambridge University as a personal tutor of a boyhood friend and ultimately went on to become Lucasian Professor of Mathematics in 1711, a post previously held by Sir Isaac Newton and in recent years by Stephen Hawking.Ìý So, quite an incredible story of the rise of this young man from humble beginnings in Yorkshire.

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White

Let me bring in Adam Martin, because you’re playing him, so how did you approach this larger than life character?

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Martin

I mean obviously when you first hear about the circumstances that Nicholas was under, of course, as Andrew just said, he lost his eyes to smallpox and I’m visually impaired myself but obviously I still retain some sight.Ìý So, I think the biggest challenge for me, at first was, as an actor I need to try and give this performance of a blind person but in a believable sense, if you know what I mean, nothing too exaggerated, nothing too stereotypical in a way because I think that’s disingenuine [sic] both to people with visual impairment and Nicholas Saunderson as a whole.Ìý At the time of recording this we’re in our third week of rehearsal and it’s still an ever-learning process of finding, you know the nuances of this performance and how to craft it.

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White

Yeah and you say you don’t want to overplay him, you both know what it is to have a visual impairment, I just wonder how much do you know about being blind in the 18th century?

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Martin

Well isn’t that a question.Ìý Well, I mean obviously in the 17th, 18th century things like braille hadn’t been invented yet, so, of course, it’s a longstanding rumour and myth that we’re working into the show actually that he learned how to read or know what letters were by tracing his finger across the gravestones in the churchyard.Ìý As I say, we’ve incorporated into the show but he had help from friends and tutors as well to then hone his reading skills and then learn how to write as well, which obviously back then with no – without the aids and the technologies that we have now to help visually impaired people do that, that’s quite remarkable really.Ìý I mean like I’m using a stick of sorts, a cane of sorts, he would have still had something to get a sense of where he was but I think we’re also playing with the idea that in his home town of Penistone he’s gained a sense of familiarity with the place.Ìý So, we’re playing with the different extremes of it I think, yeah.

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White

And do we know how he did the maths calculations?Ìý I mean obviously being a Stephen Hawking type mathematician he’d have done them in his head but did he have a way of writing stuff down or at least noting numbers down?

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Martin

He had for himself a counting frame, which was about a metre – like a metre square along all sides and it was almost like an ingenious peg board.Ìý So, it was like a one metre square with holes all the way throughout it, at various intervals and he’d use large pegs and smaller pegs to then differentiate what the numbers were.Ìý So, even though he couldn’t see it he could obviously use his hands and fit the pegs into the certain holes, as it were.Ìý And then from that he could calculate equations or figure out sums.Ìý It’s quite an ingenious method considering the time and the era that he was – he grew up in.

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Music

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White

This is a musical of course and people often make comparisons with mathematical and musical genius, do we happen to know whether he was musical as well?

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Loretto

Yes, he was musical and he did play certain instruments, so music was part of his life.Ìý And it’s interesting, going back to your question about enlightenment attitudes to people who were blind, one of the facts I’ve been looking into and found out about is scholars at the time debated whether or not blind people were more likely to be atheists, as a result – as a result of their presumed bitterness against God for their condition.Ìý Others would argue that the blind were closer to God because they were spared the burden of earthly distractions because of their blindness.Ìý And interesting those themes do come up in the show.

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White

Now No Horizon is the title but how do you avoid the sentimentalising of what was, presumably, a complicated life?Ìý I mean there’s always this whole temptation to make everybody draw in the breath and say what an amazing guy, and I guess Nicholas probably wouldn’t have thought he was amazing would he necessarily?

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Martin

Yeah, I completely understand your point and I think there are moments in the show where Nicholas, being a Yorkshireman, had that certain sense of Yorkshire bluntness about him.Ìý And I think towards himself and other people, I wouldn’t say he’s completely the victim, in that sense he’s just like any other human being, I don’t think we’re playing him up to be this oh woe is me sort of character, far from it, I think.

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White

We seem to have forgotten about him and you’re trying to put that right but was he a celebrity at the time, at least locally, do we think?

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Martin

I think certainly once is got the Lucasian professorship which at the time, and still is in a way, is the highest position of mathematical superiority, if you like, in the English land.Ìý And I certainly think for those back in Penistone who knew him and particularly his family, here’s a lad who’s come from this small town back then and still people would argue now, in the middle of nowhere, and he’s ascended to the highest post available in Cambridge, that was – it’s remarkable really.Ìý And certainly when you research Nicholas Saunderson online and through articles or what people wrote about him at the time, they always talk about him, as Andrew said, like a personality, he was someone that you remembered, someone you wanted to listen to, someone you wanted to speak with and get to know for all the reasons we’ve mentioned.Ìý So, I think definitely at the time there was an air that he was looked up at maybe as a miracle, I guess, in a way – this lad who had it all against him ascended to something greater.

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White

Adam Martin.

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And No Horizon is touring the north of England starting on March 19th.

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You can call this number with your voice messages – 0161 8361338, that’s the number.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or visit our website at bbc.co.uk/intouch where you’ll find the podcast of tonight’s programme and many previous editions as well.

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That’s it from me, Peter White, producer Kevin Core and the team, goodbye.

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