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IN TOUCH – Pig Skin Corneas; My Sound Cinema; The Visual Dimension Project

TX:Ìý 27.09.2022Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening. ÌýIf you think blind people aren’t interested in films then you haven’t met Kim Milward.Ìý

Milward

On average, I go to the cinema about 200 times a year and at home I’d say I’d watch at least 50 per month.

White

And there’s what sounds like good news for Kim and other visually impaired film buffs – more on that later in the programme.

Timpani sounds

And while no one’s surprised to discover blind people enjoy music, they might be a bit more startled at some of the instruments being played in a performance we’re featuring tonight.

But first, a couple of months ago, we highlighted the fact that there were long waiting lists for people needing cornea transplants.Ìý Now the cornea is a highly sensitive part of the eye which, if damaged, can severely affect your clarity of vision.Ìý One of the problems is that people who are willing to donate organs, in principle, often balk at the idea of donating parts of the eye.Ìý But now we’re hearing of a development which could begin to provide a solution.Ìý A small clinical trial in Sweden has used corneas made from pig skin, which they claim have achieved very successful results and overcome many of the other problems associated with human implants.

Well, Dr Peter Hampson is the Clinical Director of the Association of Optometrists.Ìý Peter Hampson, first of all, this was admittedly a small clinical trial – 20 people – but how significant could it be?

Hampson

I think it could be very significant going forwards.Ìý The study looked at using more of an implanted sort of scaffold type approach, so that you didn’t need donor tissue in the same way that you do at the moment.Ìý And as you quite rightly said, donor tissue is difficult to come by anyway and when it comes to corneas or eyes, in general, people are quite nervous about donating that.Ìý So, anything that reduces that burden, that need for donated tissue, and provides another route to treat these patients is incredibly – incredibly interesting.

White

I mean what are the other problems associated with corneal transplants apart from this problem of the donors?

Hampson

So, one of the big problems with transplants is often the patients that need transplants, the age of the patient compared to the age of the donor tissue, can sometimes be challenging.Ìý So, patients tend to leave their tissue, as they pass away, often in old age.Ìý A number of these patients that need treatments, though, are younger patients and then you’re implanting a potentially older cornea into a younger patient.Ìý And there are ways to work around that but in some instances that mismatch in age can limit how effective the graft will be, the sort of donor tissue will be, for longevity for the patient who’s receiving it.

White

What about the problems that we hear about with this kind of thing, like rejection for example, what effect would using something like pig skin have on that?

Hampson

The collagen matrix that they’re using, if it’s not got the immune markers on it, that helps with the rejection process.Ìý Corneas tend to be quite well tolerated anyway, when they’re implanted, they don’t have quite the same rejection problems as we see with other bodily organs.Ìý Broadly, there’s no blood vessels sort of going into it directly, so there is less of an immune response anyway.Ìý It will definitely help if we can have a tissue that doesn’t have to be matched or we don’t need anti-rejection treatments or anything going forward.Ìý It’s very early days, though, I should stress.

White

Yeah, I mean for example, could it be cheaper?

Hampson

Could it be cheaper is a really interesting question and I think it comes down to how this technology is licensed.Ìý If it’s made freely available and it’s cheaper than needing transplant teams to collect the tissue from donor corneas and then to sort of get it to the right place in those timeframes, there’s definitely a potential there.Ìý As we know, though, whenever there’s a new technology, often, that comes at a premium as it enters the market, so I’m cautious around that at this point.

White

And I mean just how long are the waiting lists at the moment in the UK?

Hampson

For donor tissue the wait can be significant, many patients can be waiting years in some instances, as the priorities sort of shift.Ìý And there are only so many tissues, so many donor corneas, so you’ve got to find the patient at the right time and they’ve got to be in the right priority and that can lead to significant waits.Ìý One thing patients could really do, many of us carry a donor card, is to say that the corneas as also happy to be sort of provided for donation to those that need them but obviously, as I say, people are quite nervous around that.

White

Right.Ìý So, really if these results are as successful as the Swedish scientists say this could have quite a big effect in time?

Hampson

It could and I think there are huge opportunities for parts of the world where we don’t have the developed system that we have in the UK, as well, and we should always be mindful of that, that there are other regions of the world where access to the health service, even with the waiting lists we have, is far different in parts of sort of rural Africa and those sorts of demographics.

White

Dr Peter Hampson, thank you very much indeed.

Now, people always seem surprised to find me, an almost totally blind person, standing in a cinema queue but, of course, film is such an important vehicle in our culture for interpreting the world, that we, visually impaired people, certainly don’t want to miss out on it.Ìý And, of course, with increased use of audio description – a voice filling in what’s happening on the screen when the dialogue doesn’t do the job…

Audio

Andy walks through the restaurant with the two plates.

White

…that’s made all the difference to visually impaired film goers.Ìý Well, now, an Edinburgh based media company – Screen Language – will very soon be launching what’s being described as the world’s first online platform of audio described movies.Ìý It’s called My Sound Cinema.Ìý Elena Zini is one of the people behind it, she founded Screen Language and she joins me, along with someone who certainly can be described as a visually impaired film buff – Kim Milward.Ìý Just in case anyone’s in any doubt give us an idea of the extent of your film watching.

Milward

I would say, on average, I go to the cinema about 200 times a year and at home I’d say I’d watch at least 50 per month and that’s a conservative estimate.

White

Right.Ìý And you go to festivals as well, I think?

Milward

I do, yes, I attend things like – maybe horror festivals, like FrightFest, Mayhem, Grimmfest and I’ve been to the BFI London Festival as well.

White

Right, I think you’ve established your credentials.Ìý We’ll talk more about your film going in a minute but let me go to Elena, Elena Zini.Ìý Just explain the idea behind your project.

Zini

So, the idea behind the project was that we have been working with accessibility and audio description for over 10 years.Ìý Then we realised that many of the audio descriptions that we were producing were not eventually made accessible, people didn’t know that these films had an audio described version available.Ìý Our idea as, okay, what can we do about this and it was where it all stemmed from you, yes.

White

And the idea is it will be a kind of library, is that the right way to see it?

Zini

Yes, it will be a library in the same way as Netflix or Amazon Prime, are a library of films.Ìý Obviously, it’s much smaller scale, it will be between 15 and 20 films that launch but we will be updating every week.

White

Right, what kind of films are going to be on it and perhaps, particularly, what films are you starting with because you’re admitting you’re starting small?

Zini

Yes.Ìý So, our background was an independent because we’re diversifying films as well as diversifying audiences, is kind of the idea behind this platform as well.Ìý But we do know people have different tastes, of course, so there will be one horror film, there’ll be some drama, some comedies, some documentaries.Ìý So, there will be a bit of everything and obviously, we are trying to build this more and more according to, also, what we find.Ìý So, we’re really trying to become the one place where people know, okay, I’ve got this audio described resource.

White

Right.Ìý Well, we’ll do a bit of one-woman audience research for you.Ìý Kim, I mean, first of all, what do you think of the idea – the concept?

Milward

I really like the idea.Ìý Sometimes you think – I want to watch a film and you’re hunting all over the place for that right resource and you discover, sometimes, it’s unavailable.Ìý It would be nice to basically go and pick a film and watch it the same as everyone else.

White

So, audio description is quite widespread, you would say, but, scattered and difficult, sometimes, to access?

Milward

Yes.Ìý Could do better, on the report card, is what I’d say.Ìý And this sounds the right way.Ìý Watching a film with audio description is a king.Ìý I’ll give you two examples, visual and non-visual.Ìý The one is when Dorothy opens the door when she’s landed in Oz and it goes into glorious technicolour.Ìý Till you’ve seen a film with audio description you don’t know what you’re missing.Ìý And the non-visual one – I’d say it’s when you first hear stereo.Ìý You get that extra dimension.

White

But you do still have quite a lot of problems, I think, accessing films, going to the cinema, I mean what sort of problems have you had, some of them quite recently, I think?

Milward

I went to a cinema, and these were in the West End, so I was told – oh no, we’re not doing audio description anymore because it’s too much hassle to clean the headsets.Ìý Another one, people would take a dozen headsets and none of them were working.Ìý

White

One thing Elena, will you be able to audio describe films yourself?Ìý After all, if there are gaps in the market wouldn’t you be the very people able to fill them?Ìý Could a time come when someone like Kim could say – I can’t get this anywhere, can you audio describe it for me?Ìý Not you personally but your team.

Zini

I mean one of the ideas we had was that if we become quite successful and after, there is like a margin of income or profit we could redirect that profit towards making new audio descriptions but obviously, you know, there are founders out there – founders that are amazing – and the BFI, Screen Scotland and we don’t want to replace them but obviously, we do want to encourage more audio description to be made.Ìý And the idea is, also, the more visible audio description is the better, then hopefully the more resources we can convey in the direction of getting high quality audio description to be made.

White

One last thing we should make clear, it’s not a totally free service, is it?

Zini

No, absolutely.Ìý So, the great thing is that you go in there, you press play and basically, the film starts with audio description.Ìý This platform is made as accessible as we possibly can and we are keeping on improving it.Ìý The bad side, I mean, is that we have to pay a ticket price, so, at the moment, it’s still a ticket per film, at the moment, it’s like between £5.99 and £11.99, so it’s kind of comparable to our cinema ticket.Ìý The reason is, also, because it’s like a split revenue between us and the film rights holders, so we are also supporting the film industry as well and working together with them.

White

Right.Ìý And you’re launching in – literally in a few days, at the end of September?

Zini

Yeah, it’s very hectic, so on Friday this should be available, it will be available.Ìý The reason is that the form that people can sign up to keep in the loop because every time we put new films on the platform we will be sending newsletters out, the newsletter form is already available on the holding page.Ìý So, people will be able to just go to mysoundcinema.com and it will be there.

White

Kim, will you be logging on?

Milward

I will, yes, because it looks a good value deal.Ìý And, of course, it’s cheaper to watch films at home.Ìý It is a cost and value and for me it would be invaluable.

White

Okay.Ìý Well, thank you both – Kim Milward, Elena Zini, thank you both very much.

And from love of cinema to love of music.Ìý We have just sent our producer, Beth Hemmings, to Chapeltown in Leeds where a group of visually impaired people have been trying their hand at learning to play rhythms but perhaps not in the way that you would normally expect.

Timpani music

Hemmings

That’s Mendi Mohinder Singh, playing the tabla drum.Ìý He’s a sighted percussionist who’s most recent project called Visual Dimension was developed with the Feel Good Factor charity in Leeds.Ìý The Feel Good Factor specialise in developing a range of health and wellbeing activities for the local community and it was also the setting for a group of visually impaired people to showcase what they have been working on with Mendi for the past several weeks in a series of music workshops.

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WORKSHOP BACKROUNF SOUNDSÌý

Singh

So, the first piece we are going to play is called Chord and Response where one of us plays at rhythm and one by one we all try to copy that rhythm.

Timpani music

Brilliant.Ìý The next piece is solos.Ìý Mercy?

Timpani music

And I would like to invite Tracy to play the flute for this piece.Ìý Tracy is the coordinator here and has helped so much put this project together.

Timpani music

Five, six, seven, eight.Ìý [Applause]

Hemmings

So, I’m joined by Mercy, Verna and Nancy, who were three of the visually impaired people to participate in the performance that we just heard.Ìý But to people listening that could have perhaps sounded a little unusual, as the rhythms weren’t being played on your typical instruments.Ìý You’re all, also, using chopsticks to play.Ìý So, could one of you just explain a little bit about what we’re actually hearing and the type of objects that you were using?Ìý Mercy?

Mercy

We were using the tables, pots and pans, even cups of tea.

Hemmings

I saw you, Nancy, as well, you were playing with a pint glass, as well, weren’t you?

Nancy

You know celebration box, a wooden spoon and you know a drinking glass.

Hemmings

And Verna, what were the things that you were playing on?

Verna

Well, I was playing on the plastic tubs and a rolling pin and a bean can.Ìý It’s amazing how you can actually do a sound out of them, I never thought, before, that it would sound so good but it’s brilliant, using your hands and the chopsticks, everything just sort of come together.

Hemmings

I think projects like this one are often sort of designed around this idea of potentially enhancing the self-confidence and independence of visually impaired people, so what was it, specifically, that drew you in to joining in with this particular project and what can you say that you’ve gotten out of it?

Nancy

You feel – you feel like free, you know, your frustrations go and it’s just a bit of happiness and just like doing something different and enjoyable, let myself go.

Verna

It gives you a structure and it’s a fantastic feeling when you see people actually come to listen, there’s no feeling to explain it.

Nancy

I’m getting older and I think I’ll try anything to – well get me out and boost me confidence and you know mix.

Mercy

It brings people together.Ìý It’s something that the new generation needs to know of and they don’t know that they can do extra things which are more expanded.

Verna

Most of us, we have family but family isn’t really there for us, so these courses and the things that they do, get us out of it.Ìý We meet lots of new people and we form bonds and that’s the best thing of all because then you don’t feel alone.Ìý And these groups make us find out own happiness.

WORKSHOP BACKGROUND NOISE

Singh

Five, six, seven, eight.

Timpani music

Singh

Two years ago, I was in lockdown and I just got some wine glasses and put some water in there, so you could get different tones, and I put this video up and Henshaws got in touch and they said – Oh, can you do a workshop for our service users.Ìý So, I thought out the whole project that we could use kitchen stuff or just like things what you have in the house and playing with the chopstick or a pen or pencil, it was good for the senses I felt, playing rhythms and exploring sound.

Hemmings

So, we’ve established Mendi that you’re not blind or visually impaired, so what’s the connection here, why did you want to put on these sessions for people who are?

Singh

I was learning from my teacher in Birmingham who is blind and I just got a sense that maybe I could also teach people who are visually impaired.Ìý A lot of it is explaining things, as clear as possible, the planning process is a lot more important and I was teaching the rhythms.Ìý But one of the things that I found was it’s very hard for people to remember the rhythms, so I’m working on a notation system inspired by braille, where they could touch the rhythm.

Hemmings

So, the performance that we heard marked the end of this series of workshops, here at the Feel Good Factor, but are you planning anymore in the future and will they be based elsewhere around the UK rather than in Leeds?

Singh

Yes, so, I think I will take three or four months to work out this notation system and I’ll be working with My Sight to develop it.Ìý Then early next year I plan to do a similar project where I’ll be teaching playing on household objects but we will record them in an electronic program, called Ableton Live.Ìý I feel this kind of program, learning rhythms and everyday objects, gets just very accessible and they could do it at home.Ìý It’s a nice way to bring people together.

White

Mendi Mohinder Singh ending Beth Hemmings report there.Ìý

And that’s all for today.Ìý Do let us know your thoughts and your opinions on anything you’ve heard in tonight’s programme.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, you can leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338.Ìý From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio manager Amy Brennan, goodbye.

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