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IN TOUCH 鈥� Should Blindness be Front and Centre?

TX:听 02.04.2024听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听听听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.听 Do we, visually impaired people, want to be seen as a group huddling together for warmth or do we resent the tendency to shove us all in the same category, what, in less linguistically sensitive times, people used to refer to as 鈥榯he blind鈥�?听 If you wanted to be a clever clogs, of course, you might claim that the mere fact that you鈥檙e listening to In Touch proves that we do see ourselves as, at the very least, an interest group.听 But then you could contradict that by saying that many of us listen for information and that audience research and emails and letters we get show that many of those who do listen don鈥檛 have a sight problem at all, presumably they鈥檙e just nosey.听 What is undoubtedly true though is that if you鈥檙e the shy and retiring type it鈥檚 not easy to go under the radar with poor sight or none.听 I realised that at the moment I got up from the seat on the station platform where I was writing this script, I鈥檇 immediately be identified as part of that group, as I unfurled my white cane, searched for the train door and then tried to find an empty seat, attempting to avoid sitting on someone鈥檚 lap 鈥� all that stuff.

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So, do we accept the inevitable and embrace the identity full on or are there ways to select the profile we want to share with the rest of the world?

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Well, to discuss this dilemma I鈥檓 joined by three people who seem to have gone about this in rather different ways.听 One who鈥檚 fighting her corner and other people鈥檚 at the same time.听 One, who鈥檚 looked at the funny side of blindness and one who because he鈥檚 losing his sight has tried to analyse it.

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Rachael Andrews, you basically took on the government by insisting on having a way to cast your vote secretly and independently and you鈥檙e currently taking on the social care system and your landlord for failing to send you accessible correspondence.听 Are you a natural scrapper or have circumstances forced it on you?

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Andrews

Am I natural scrapper?听 Maybe people, who know me, would say yes but I would say no and I have to admit that a lot of the things that I now fight for, sometimes I鈥檓 doing it for the principle of it, sometimes I鈥檓 doing it for myself and sometimes I鈥檓 doing it for the people who come after me.听 So, maybe I am a natural scrapper, I鈥檝e never thought about it, possibly, yeah.

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White

But you do seem to have developed a taste for it since the court case that brought you to people鈥檚 notice.

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Andrews

Yeah, maybe, I don鈥檛 know if a taste for it is the right thing, I think I鈥檝e been in the right place at the right time and people have sort of come to me and said 鈥� you know, I鈥檓 really fed up with this situation, what should I do about it but I don鈥檛 have the mental energy to take it on.听 So, I am now vice chair of a local charity called Inclusive Norwich, so that鈥檚 what I do all day long, I not only fight the cause for people who are visually impaired and need access in that right but also for all sorts of other disabilities as well.听 So, I think maybe I was in the right place at the right time and just sort of decided, yeah, okay, might as well, you know.

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White

Right, we may come back to you on whether you want to do it all day long.听 I want to bring in Jamie, Jamie MacDonald, you鈥檙e a stand-up comedian.听 You鈥檝e decided to mine blindness for its jokes, is that a defence mechanism or do you just think blindness can actually be quite funny?

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MacDonald

Yeah, I think you can blend the blindness and humour quite nicely.听 It鈥檚 interesting that this is the topic today because I鈥檝e literally finished a show, my new work in progress show, that talks about us being鈥� I feel that disabled people have only been accepted as a lump and I do believe we should be accepted on more of an individual level, I鈥檇 say that disabled folk were like snowflakes, you know, there鈥檚 not two of us the same and if a lot of us fall people panic.听 And the struggle now, because I鈥檝e got RP, so I steadily lost my sight over about 30 years, I don鈥檛 want to go back to the way it kind of was and I talk about this in the show, the difference between now and then, where it was a kind of inaccessible world 30 years ago but now the world is鈥� it鈥檚 a more kind of caring, nice place towards disabled people.听 But the new struggle that I find now is that nice, new, kind people will do the wrong thing but for the right reasons and I鈥檒l have to thank them for it and kind of suck it up.听 An example I use of that is when I got a cup of tea off the train, it鈥檚 always train act that was for blind people, isn鈥檛 it?

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White

We鈥檒l have some more, our third guest is between trains, so鈥�

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MacDonald

I got a cup of tea off the trolley; it was roasting and the old lady next to me blew on it for me.听 And I just had to thank her and drink round the saliva.听 So, I think there鈥檚 that kind of鈥� there has to be鈥� you are an individual but you are blind, so you have got one thing in common with other blind people but that鈥檚 it, that鈥檚 the one thing you have and then behind the eyes is totally different from the head to toes.

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White

Okay, let me bring in Andrew Leland, who is the one who鈥檚 between trains.听 As a reaction to knowing you were likely to lose your sight, because I think you鈥檝e got the same thing as Jamie actually, you鈥檝e written a book 鈥� The Country of the Blind 鈥� analysing the different ways in which we react to the situation.听 Has it made you want to join the club?

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Leland

I mean I鈥檓 joining it whether I like to or not, there鈥檚 no cure for RP and my vision changes year by year.听 So, in that sense, I鈥檓 on a one-way train and there鈥檚 no getting off of it.听 But I guess the question is more about whether I band together with this lump, you鈥檙e describing, or try to be individual.听 And I find real solace and power in connecting with other blind people.听 I think about something a blind friend of mine said about braille, which is that, we take for granted how kids, sighted kids, are just surrounded by a world of print and to sort of expose the blind kids to a commensurate amount of braille requires like a really concerted effort.听 And I鈥檝e found that with blindness in general, you know, like I think just figuring little things like what kind of screen reader should I use or what kind of cane or should I learn braille 鈥� all those questions I鈥檓 very alone in until I really had to spend years immersing myself.听 And those are just on a purely practical level, crucial questions and things for a blind person to figure out.听 And so, yeah, I think community has real value there鈥�

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White

But there鈥檚 another way to look at it, Andrew, which some blind people do say to me, which is the only trouble with a lot of blind people getting together is that then they all whinge.听 Is whinge an American term, I鈥檓 not sure, moan, complain.

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Leland

If not whining, we would probably say whining or complaining.听 But, yeah, I mean, I would say there鈥檚 therapeutic value in complaining, you don鈥檛 want to have that be your primary occupation but you鈥檝e got to have a release valve for it and if there鈥檚 no one else in your life who鈥檚 going to be able to appreciate a stranger blowing on your tea in quite the same way, I think there鈥檚 value in that.

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White

So, will you go on?听 I mean I know in doing your research you went to a lot of large organisations, things like the NFB 鈥� National Federation of the Blind 鈥� in America, do you think you鈥檒l stay with that kind of stuff?

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Leland

Stay with those kinds of group?

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White

The organisations, yeah, I mean I just wonder whether you鈥檙e a joiner or whether you want to be a slipper under the radar, carry on.

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Leland

Well, I鈥檝e cracked that code by becoming a writer and I feel like I can hide under this cover of journalistic objectivity and say, you know, I鈥檓 writing about the NFB but I don鈥檛 join them but along the way I get to meet all these incredible blind mentors and go to their training centres.听 So, I try to have my cake and eat it too by dint of becoming a writer.

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White

I must say, I mean, it is the contradictions in our own attitudes that quite interest me because you quite often hear blind people say things like 鈥� I just want to be treated like everybody else 鈥� but of course, at the moment we are treated like everybody else that can lead to problems too because it means you won鈥檛 get the help when you need it.听 Rachael, essentially, your campaigns involve us not being treated like everyone else, don鈥檛 they, I mean they involve concessions or perhaps you鈥檇 prefer it if I said adaptations but they certainly don鈥檛 involve us being treated like everybody else?

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Andrews

No, I think you鈥檙e right, I think what the campaigns and the work that I do and the people that I work with, what we do is we want the outcome to be like everybody else.听 So, although I recognise the fact that when I go and vote I鈥檓 never going to be treated like everybody else because the voting system is entirely a visual thing, the outcome of what I want is the same as everybody else, if you see what I mean.听 So, I want it on equal terms.听 But I do recognise that because of the dint in my blindness I cannot do it like everyone else.听 So, yeah, it鈥檚 a difficult balance to strike but you don鈥檛 have a choice, as Andrew said, we鈥檙e on a train and there鈥檚 no getting off.听 So, you鈥檝e just got to do what you鈥檝e got to do really.

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White

Right.听 Is there鈥� yeah go on, Jamie.

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MacDonald

Well, just I鈥檇 argue that there鈥檚鈥� in a way that there鈥檚 no blind, there鈥檚 also no everybody else, that鈥檚 the kind of bit of a cover up concept as well because it鈥檚 like, it suggests that everybody else is treated brilliantly and we鈥檙e treated awful.听 I think, when you say, we want to be treated like everybody else, it鈥檚 more like we just don鈥檛 want to be patronised or dragged across streets that you didn鈥檛 want to cross, you know, just people鈥檚 understanding of blindness because basically what you鈥檙e dealing with, when you鈥檙e being mistreated as their interpretation of what they think you want them to do in this nice world.听 So, we鈥檝e kind of created a rod for our own backs by saying this is people not being treated like this, oh so it鈥檚 alright, so we鈥檙e going to get treated like that are we.听 You know, the genie鈥檚 out the bottle.听 But I don鈥檛 think there鈥檚 a case to say there鈥檚 an everybody else and then there鈥檚 blind people, I don鈥檛 think either of those are single things.

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White

Right.听 I did promise, Rachael, to come back to you on the issue of do you really want to be doing these things each day and every day because almost once you get your identity as a campaigner, you鈥檙e sort of stuck with it, aren鈥檛 you?

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Andrews

Yeah, kind of and I鈥檝e really kind of embraced that by joining Inclusive Norwich and being very鈥�

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White

Did they pay you to say their name twice Rachael?

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Andrews

No, no but I am the vice chair so I鈥檓 going to get it in whenever I can, you know, I understand there鈥檚 no such thing as bad publicity.听 But, no, you don鈥檛 want to do it all the time but there are certain times where the world forces you to have to do it or if you don鈥檛 want to, you can go away and go 鈥� okay, well I鈥檓 just not going to do that thing again or I鈥檓 not going to go with that shop or I鈥檓 not going to interact with that thing.听 And sometimes I do just go home and go, do you know, I can鈥檛 be bothered, I鈥檓 not doing it today, I鈥檇 just rather go and walk my guide dog.听 And there are other days where I鈥檓 mostly at the time 鈥� yeah, okay, let鈥檚 have a bit of a scrap.听 So, like Jamie says, there鈥檚 no one type of blind person and you don鈥檛 have to be the same sort of blind person every day either.听 So, it just depends on how you鈥檙e feeling, you know.

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White

I want to go back to Andrew on Penn Station in New York because it鈥檚 the contradictions that do fascinate me.听 I mean, again, it was on a station the other day when I realised just how drastic some of the contradictions are in that I wanted to just stand on the platform waiting to meet somebody, I didn鈥檛 want to go anywhere, I didn鈥檛 want to do anything and I stood on that platform and about five people came up and wanted to help me.听 Now when I do want help, none of those people are ever around, you know, and so I get angry when there鈥檚 no one to help and I get angry when people want to help me when I don鈥檛 want help.听 Is that something you鈥檝e seen in your鈥� these contradictions that seem to assail us really?

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Leland

Yeah, that is such a confounding problem.听 And to expect the world to finely calibrate itself to be just what every blind person wants and then, of course, like you say, some blind people want more, some blind people want less where different situations demand the differences鈥�

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White

Yeah but the trouble you want more and less within about 10 minutes of it yourself, you know, it鈥檚 not other people wanting鈥� it鈥檚 you wanting, yeah, that鈥檚 what I find so tricky.

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Leland

Yeah, yeah, I mean, there鈥檚 no universal rule.听 I mean I think the only rule of thumb that I think sighted people just need to understand and to carry with them is to listen to the blind person because I think so often somebody will say 鈥� Oh, do you need some help 鈥� and then they鈥檒l say no and then that answer will be sort of brushed off and they鈥檒l say 鈥� Well, let me just offer you something, clearly you鈥檙e in distress on some level 鈥� and just pushing and pushing.听 And I don鈥檛 know if it requires like wearing a t-shirt that says like actually I鈥檓 fine, thanks, unless I鈥檓 waving my arm.听 But I think that鈥檚 the big lesson is just believe the blind person and let the blind person say what they need rather than offering it to them or dragging them across the street.

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White

Right.听 I want to stay with you to raise something which I鈥檓 going to raise with all three of you.听 It鈥檚 just one of the best quotes, I think, I think it was in your book, Andrew, but I鈥檝e seen it a few times, this lady Georgina Kleege who said: 鈥淥n a good day, my blindness is less important than the weather.鈥澨� Is that something you can鈥� as someone who鈥檚 losing their sight, is that something you can imagine?

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Leland

Yeah, you know, I think it鈥檚 tricky to compare disability to other identities but I also think it鈥檚 useful in a way.听 When I think about, let鈥檚 say gender, I鈥檓 a man and there are times when it鈥檚 important for me to say that, you know, and to be a man.听 There鈥檚 times when my masculinity is relevant.听 But when I鈥檓 going to eat lunch later today, I鈥檓 not going to be eating my salad as a man, right, I鈥檓 just eating a salad.听 And I think blindness can have the same kind of valence, it鈥檚 like there are times, yes, when I need an accessible voting machine, right, or I need these materials to be put in accessibly or there needs to be braille labels on this elevator.听 But many times, I鈥檓 just, you know, I鈥檓 eating lunch, I鈥檓 going to work, I鈥檓 hanging out with my family and blindness does matter less than weather, as Georgina said.

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White

I mean Jamie, this issue of contradictions but also if Georgina Kleege is right and it鈥檚 less important than the weather, that鈥檚 tough for you, isn鈥檛 it, you鈥檝e built a lot of your act on the fact that it鈥檚 quite a big deal?

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MacDonald

Well, if it鈥檚 less important than the weather, that鈥檚 the case when it鈥檚 icy, when the weather is very important.听 I see contradiction in鈥� the blindness as being part of everyday life is part of the [indistinct word], it鈥檚 not exceptional, it鈥檚 just little things, it doesn鈥檛 have to be a significant blind thing.听 Like I always think it鈥檚 hilarious that they put braille, the word 鈥榖leach鈥� in braille on bottles because I just wonder whose life has that saved, you know, like these little kinds of insignificant inconsequential things but are just so hilarious, it鈥檚 like no blind person鈥檚 going to drink bleach because there鈥檚 no braille on the bottle telling them it鈥檚 bleach.听 There鈥檚 so many little things that are overlooked鈥� I mean it鈥檚 not a significant blind thing that we all kind of take care walking down the street, that鈥檚 just how we live our life, the blindness kind of steers our life in that kind of scenario.听 But I do feel that it is always there, if you think about it, you鈥檙e always doing something like, you know, if you鈥檙e doing something with the oven, you鈥檙e not looking at the numbers, you鈥檝e figured out how to do it.听 But that鈥檚 governed by your blindness.

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White

The great thing about this bottle story is that somebody pointed out that it was so significant that the English put braille on a bottle of bleach but the French put it on a bottle of champagne, which says a lot about the English, I think.

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Rachael, less important?听 How many days is it blindness less important than the weather to you?

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Andrews

Well, I think that depends on what you鈥檙e doing鈥�

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White

On the blindness and the weather, I suppose.

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Andrews

Yeah, I think it also depends on, unfortunately 鈥� and this seems like a really terrible generalisation to make 鈥� but the rest of the world because I can [indistinct words] down the street with my guide dog and most people say 鈥� oh are you training the dog 鈥� for a start because, of course, apparently鈥� I mean I don鈥檛 even know what a typical guide dog owner鈥檚 meant to look like, apparently I don鈥檛 look like one.听 And then they will say 鈥� how fantastic the guide dog is and oh I bet you鈥檇 be lost without him.听 Yes I would.听 Isn鈥檛 he handsome?听 Yes, he is.听 Oh he鈥檚 so amazing.听 Yes, he is.听 And then I鈥檒l move off and they鈥檒l go 鈥� Oh mind those steps or mind the lamppost 鈥� and I鈥檒l think well did you just not sort of spend 10 minutes telling me how fantastic he was.听 So, the rest of the world does have a little bit of a problem with what to do and how to treat visual impairment.听 So, sometimes, if I don鈥檛 meet that in the rest of the world my visual impairment is not that important.听 I mean, obviously, as Jamie says, it governs how you do things but it鈥檚 not front and centre of everything I do.听 It鈥檚 when it goes wrong that it actually has to come front and centre.

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White

That was, in a way, right at the root of why I wanted to talk about this.听 Front and centre.听 Let me just go back to you, Andrew, finally on this.听 You鈥檝e written a book about it, you鈥檝e spent a huge amount of time researching it.听 Can you imagine it not being front and centre?

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Leland

I mean I think that鈥� that the point that was just made is spot on.听 I wrote about a blind bioethicist named Adrienne Asch who was blind from birth and always argued that blindness was incidental in her life and鈥� until she entered the job market, she graduated from college and was exclusively denied a job because she was blind.听 And her friends joked, like Adrienne is 23-years-old and just realised she鈥檚 blind.听 And I think that that kind of sums it up for me, is that you don鈥檛 need to think about it, it鈥檚 just a way of living until it excludes you and it pushes you away from inclusion, whether that鈥檚 inclusion to information, how you access information or society or employment and all the things that blind people can be marginalised from.

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White

Okay, that sounds like a good place to stop.听 Andrew鈥檚 got to catch a train, Rachael鈥檚 got to go to a meeting, what have you got to do Jamie?

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MacDonald

I鈥檒l go for a nap, I think.

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White

Go for a nap.听 Well, look, thank you all so much 鈥� Rachael Andrews, Jamie MacDonald, Andrew Leland 鈥� between trains 鈥� thank you very much indeed.

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We鈥檇 like to know what you think, listening to that, are you a huddler together for warmth or a striker out for your own identity or are we entitled to do both?听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338 and there鈥檚 more information on our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.听 Next week, we鈥檙e going to be looking at plans to improve the ways visually impaired students get tailor-made equipment and human support.听 That鈥檚 it, from me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings, our guests and studio managers Kelly Young and James Bradshaw, goodbye.