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What鈥檚 Climate Change Got To Do With Disability?28th October 2021bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast
Presented by Keiligh Baker

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Hello there, and thank you for downloading the 主播大秀 Ouch podcast. I鈥檓 Keiligh Baker. COP26, the big UN climate conference everyone is talking about, is being held in Glasgow between 31 October and 12 November. Now, being a disability podcast we鈥檝e been wanting to explore how climate change might affect disabled people around the world because, let鈥檚 be honest, they don鈥檛 often get that much of a mention. So, if you鈥檙e interested, this is the programme for you.Last week is was revealed that 99.9% of studies now put all climate change down to humans, and the summit is seen as crucial to keep global heating below a rise of 1.5 degrees centigrade, as agreed at the last big COP summit in Paris six years ago. Anything more could hugely change how we live on this planet.In addition to that, it鈥檚 now widely accepted that climate change affects the world鈥檚 poorest and most vulnerable people. A paper by CBM, the global disability charity, suggests that 20% of those most vulnerable to climate change are disabled people. So, I鈥檒l be finding out why that is and what鈥檚 being done to solve the problem.With me is Professor S茅bastien Jodoin from McGill University in Montreal, and Doctor Mary Keogh, the Disability Inclusion Director for charity CBM Global.聽[Music]Very briefly, I鈥檓 going to get you both to describe what you do, and it might be useful at this point to mention in what way you are disabled. Let鈥檚 start with you, S茅bastien.S茅bastien-聽Right. So I鈥檓 a Law Professor at McGill University in Canada, and I work on human rights and the climate change, and human rights and other environmental issues. And I have multiple sclerosis.Keiligh-And how about you, Mary?Mary-My name is Mary Keogh. I鈥檓 based in Dublin. Advocacy Director with CBM Global Disability Inclusion, and I鈥檓 a wheelchair user.Keiligh-Thank you both so much. So, let鈥檚 just get started, straight to the mute of the matter. I鈥檝e been doing a fair bit of research ahead of this podcast, and I鈥檝e seen that there seems to be this strong believe that disabled people are going to be or already are among the hardest hit by climate change. Do you agree? Starting with you, Mary.Mary-You say you鈥檙e doing research, Keiligh. The interesting thing is that actually the evidence around this is quite minimal, because research hasn鈥檛 really been done around the impact on persons with disabilities. But we do know from the kind of work that we do and the interviews and research that we鈥檝e kind of anecdotally done with persons with disabilities, that climate change is having an impact on people with disabilities鈥� lives, yes.聽Keiligh-S茅bastien?S茅bastien-聽Obviously we need more research, more systematic collection of data. But when we look at the aftermath of different severe weather events that are connected to climate change. So if I look at heatwaves, or if I look at hurricanes or cyclones, I can see across the world that people with disabilities are disproportionately dying in these kinds of events. And that鈥檚 true in developing countries as it鈥檚 true in developed countries.Keiligh-And in your opinion, why do you think there is this like dearth of data when it comes to disabled people and climate change?S茅bastien-聽Well, I mean it鈥檚 ableism, is the simplest answer. It鈥檚 just not thinking about this. The environmental movement and people who work on climate change, they鈥檝e progressively started to look at other perspectives over the last 25 years. It鈥檚 been a long journey to get people in climate change to think about gender, to think about racialised minorities, to think about indigenous peoples, how they are affected by climate change and including them in decision making and efforts to find solutions. So that鈥檚 been a long journey, and this is just the latest group that people honestly just didn鈥檛 even think about for the longest time.聽And so ableism in the sense of people not even thinking about differences and how people might respond to climate change, differences in how people might be able to adopt to climate change, or just completely neglecting and forgetting about the 15/20% of the world鈥檚 population that has a disability.Keiligh-Ableism, that鈥檚 a very strong word.S茅bastien-聽Is it? I mean the way I see it there鈥檚 two meanings of that word. There is first the systematic denial of the rights and dignity of people with disabilities, discriminatory attitudes towards people with disabilities. And I would say there鈥檚 lots of evidence of course to back up the claim that that鈥檚 present in all sorts of spheres in society, including in the environmental movement.聽But I think ableism in the sense of just assuming that everyone鈥檚 able bodied and corresponds to a single way of interacting of the world, and just forgetting about differences that may exist in how people interact with the world and the barriers they may face. I think that鈥檚 very present in society, and not surprising that it would be present in the environmental movement.I realise now we鈥檙e like I believe only white people talking about this, so women, racialised minorities, and then of course the poor, are more affected within the disability community. There are some that are more affected than others. I don鈥檛 know if that鈥檚 a point that bears mentioning but-Keiligh-Yeah, definitely. I mean the intersection is so important, isn鈥檛 it?S茅bastien-聽So, we mentioned race and gender in poverty, but also even amongst the types of disabilities it seems that people with intellectual or learning disabilities tend to be at greater risk, for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with any kind of actual... I mean with my MS I鈥檓 more sensitive to heat, there is really no reason except for stigma and discrimination.Keiligh-And then Mary, coming back to you for this. What kind of examples have you seen of disabled people perhaps being impacted by climate change?Mary-So, for the research that we did in 2019, we spoke with people with disabilities in various different countries around the world, many in low income countries, and hearing around how people are being impacted, for example, by if there is a drought in terms of food security. There鈥檚 a current example of that at the moment, a very live one, in Madagascar, where we鈥檙e looking at the first ever food crisis that鈥檚 directly linked to climate. Also in different countries like, for example, Bangladesh, looking at where people with disabilities are left out of emergency responses. Because obviously as a result of a climate event you have a humanitarian response, and then really important to that is including persons with disabilities. So these are the kind of the critical issues that impact on people.And even dismobility about moving around in terms of when there is floods, or when there is heavy rains, for example. Some of the interviewees had said even walking around with a cane was challenging when you have flooded streets. And also we know earlier in the year there was flooding in Germany where there was a home where 13 persons with intellectual disabilities died in the floods.Keiligh-Just to go back to a point you made. In what way are disabled people being left out of the emergency responses?Mary-It鈥檚 very similar to what S茅bastien was saying. People with disabilities are not always considered in terms of policymaking or responses. So whether that鈥檚 in emergency, whether that鈥檚 in food security, whether that鈥檚 in conflict, it鈥檚 not a natural reflex to think about persons with disabilities. So this has obviously had a challenge in terms of humanitarian responses in the past.聽Things are changing and it鈥檚 moving.聽 But for example, we know that in terms of the tsunami that happened on Boxing Day 20 years ago, we know that persons with disabilities were left out of that, there was data to show that through some research. So this is a critical issue, and humanitarian response is very linked to climate.Keiligh-Yeah. And actually sort of expanding on that, I know when I was doing a bit of research around this, that was also the case with hurricane Katrina.Mary-Yes.Keiligh-People were told that there was this big storm coming. Great. But actually when it came to evacuating, a lot of the routes out were just not accessible to disabled people. There were buses that weren鈥檛 wheelchair accessible. Not all of the alerts were accessible to deaf or hard of hearing people.
S茅bastien, I understand that you also have a very shocking example when it comes to heatwaves in Canada. Would you mind sharing that with us?S茅bastien-聽Yeah. July 2018 in my home town of Montreal, there was a heatwave that killed 61 people, and of these victims a quarter had schizophrenia, which is about 500 times their share of the population. So the question is why would people who live with schizophrenia, why would they die at such high numbers in a heatwave?聽There is an element to the fact that they will often be using medication that makes you less tolerant to heat. Antipsychotic drugs make you less tolerant to heat basically, so they have this underlying effect. There鈥檚 many other medications that have this type of effect as well, so many people who are also on certain medications, or many people who have chronic illnesses such as mine, it鈥檚 a very common symptom to be more sensitive to heat as well.聽But for the most part, it鈥檚 really tied to their underlying levels of poverty, that they experience disconnect from social networks and family. And obviously the city did not have a plan to think about okay this group might be more at risk, we better have something in place to reach them and ensure that they鈥檙e safe.So ultimately we see these kinds of stories all over the world, whether it鈥檚 when there are bush fires and there isn鈥檛 a plan to evacuate people who are wheelchair users or who may need to move medical equipment. Whether it鈥檚 in the context of hurricanes where shelters don鈥檛 have ramps. So we see this story time and time again.Keiligh-We don鈥檛 want to scare people, and obviously that is a very shocking example. Would you say that if people are worried about it they should have a chat with their doctors about their medication?S茅bastien-聽If you have a health condition or you are on medication that makes you more sensitive or vulnerable to heat or heatwaves, then you need a plan. Obviously you should be advocating for the authorities to have resources in place to support you, but you may need to ensure a plan for your own safety. And I think this is unfortunately just the case for anyone who lives with a disability, that you can鈥檛 count on local or regional governments to come and save you in case of an emergency.聽So whether that鈥檚 ensuring that you have access to air conditioning, which I realise might not be the case for people who may be on low incomes. [Dog barks] Maybe having a plan in terms of friends or family that you can stay with who might have that access. To ensure that we are able to be resilient in the face of different climate impacts.Keiligh-And also, was that your dog in the background that I could hear then?S茅bastien-聽I am so sorry. Yes, that鈥檚 my daughter鈥檚 pandemic puppy. I want to say by the way, I don鈥檛 think that this is the correct way it should be. I don鈥檛 think it should be the case that individuals need to take on the burden of ensuring their safety. I don鈥檛 want to suggest that this is the way it should be. But realistically, and as we鈥檝e seen from the pandemic, if we鈥檝e learnt anything it鈥檚 that as people with disabilities we have to unfortunately act to take steps to ensure our safety, and of course work with other groups and communities as well to change policies to ensure the safety of our community.Keiligh-Yeah, I totally get that. We鈥檝e heard some very scary examples here from both of you. Mary, coming back to you, at the moment what is being done globally to help disabled people who are being affected by human caused climate change?Mary-It鈥檚 really about trying to make people with disabilities visible in policies, whether that鈥檚 emergency response, policies for social protection, all of these areas that link around the climate piece. I think also in terms of connecting it, because it intersects with the humanitarian side. So it鈥檚 making sure that that鈥檚 taking a much more inclusive approach, and there is guidelines developed to support that. [Hammering in the background]But I think the issue is that the events are happening more and more, all of these climate events that are causing such distress for people鈥檚 lives, and the policy and the practice just isn鈥檛 keeping up with it. So I think that鈥檚 where we get this gap. That鈥檚 why I think for example at COP26 and different policy forums, to really start the storytelling around the impact of persons with disabilities and the impact of climate change, is really critical.Keiligh-Mary, can I just say what a consummate professional you are answering that question so perfectly even with someone hammering overhead. I think we could just about hear it!Mary-Is it affecting you? [Laughs] Sorry.Keiligh-[Laughs] To be honest, I like the touch it gives, it鈥檚 all very human. We鈥檝e got the dog, we鈥檝e got the hammering, this is life continuing.Mary-[Laughs] Yeah, exactly. Working from home. [Laughs]Keiligh-Exactly.Mary-As a person with a disability we鈥檙e still working from home. That鈥檚 a key important point to make. Yeah.Keiligh-Yes, exactly. S茅bastien, coming back to you. At the moment what鈥檚 the global sort of authority鈥檚 position? What do places like the UN and all these big organisations, what do they say about it all?S茅bastien-聽Not much. There has historically been now a number of resolutions and statements adopted at the UN where people with disabilities are sort of lumped together in a list of groups that are more at risk from climate change. But there is no follow-up measures or programmes that are dedicated to ensuring that people with disabilities are part of coming up with solutions to climate change. And that鈥檚 why it鈥檚 so important that we鈥檙e seeing organisations such as the International Disability Alliance, the European Disability Forum, the Pacific Disability Forum, and other organisations from Latin America and especially the Pacific, they鈥檝e been quite present on these issues perhaps because they are the front lines of climate change, and really raising awareness of the importance of adopting a disability inclusive approach to climate action.Keiligh-Of course we don鈥檛 want to scare people unnecessarily, and there are reasons to be hopeful, aren鈥檛 there. Mary, can you tell us a little bit about that?Mary-Yes. Firstly you鈥檝e got really strong movements demanding change now, and it鈥檚 becoming more and more over the last number of years. We鈥檙e hopeful that within that movement for change, that persons with disabilities and the organisations representing persons with disabilities, are leading within those social movements. So I think that鈥檚 one thing to be positive about.I think we have to be clear also that governments have to step up and take their role. The movement I spoke about can help with that holding the accountability piece, which is really critical. And I think one thing I鈥檝e reflected on just recently is, we鈥檙e all caretakers of this world that we live in, and we鈥檙e all not here forever either, so I think people with disabilities have a role to be caretakers of the world and have the skills to do that. To me, that is a hopeful piece for the future.Keiligh-How about you, S茅bastien?S茅bastien-聽I鈥檇 like to say that people with disabilities are or have to be experts in resilience. We have a lot of knowledge about how to navigate a world with barriers, with obstacles. I think if the pandemic especially has taught us anything is, we have a lot of the solutions to living in a difficult context. So a lot of the things that we have been calling for, for years, suddenly had to be adopted by a number of people in society in response to the pandemic. I think there are similar ways in which we can be involved in coming up with solutions to ensuring resilience in the case of climate change.I think that there is lots of openness actually. I was saying that there hasn鈥檛 been a lot happening for many years, but I鈥檝e been really impressed in the last few years of having gone from the, 鈥淗ey, I work on climate change and disability鈥�, and people being like, 鈥淗uh? What?鈥�, to, 鈥淚 work on climate change and disability鈥� and the response being, 鈥淥h. I was not thinking about this and I need to educate myself鈥�. Speaking with people who have been in the disability movement for way longer than I have, they鈥檝e told me that they have never seen an issue morph so quickly as it has in the last 18 months. So that鈥檚 a reason to be optimistic.Keiligh-Oh my goodness, definitely. Definitely.聽[Music]S茅bastien-聽We鈥檝e talked about impacts of climate change on disability, but there鈥檚 a flipside to the agenda, which is how measures to combat climate change might exclude people with disabilities, and why those need to be inclusive. All over the world governments are making all sorts of changes to change how we move in terms of transportation, how we heat our homes, the energy that we use, how our cities are organised, all in an effort to rapidly reduce our carbon emissions by 2050. All of these changes which can definitely help reduce carbon emissions can still have negative impacts for people with disabilities if they鈥檙e not carefully developed in an inclusive way.聽The classic example that many people will cite is the effort to ban plastic straws. Plastic is bad, we know this in terms of the environment. But if we just flat out ban plastic straws without thinking about people with disabilities who may need such straws, people with disabilities who may not have access to alternatives, or without thinking about developing alternatives, then the end result is that we鈥檙e actually reinforcing barriers for people with disabilities making their lives harder.Another classic example is mass transit. We know that to combat climate change we need to get Western societies to reduce their dependence on driving cars to move around. We need to promote mass transit systems. But if we鈥檙e doing that in a way that doesn鈥檛 recognise that certain people in society need to use automobiles for transportation. Or if we don鈥檛 ensure that our mass transit systems are accessible to people with disabilities, then again we鈥檙e just reinforcing social inequities, or just making it harder for people with disabilities to live their lives.聽On the other side, if we actually develop these policies in a disability inclusive way, we can actually make sure that people with disabilities are part of this important transformation of society. And in fact in doing that will often not only maybe even reduce barriers for people with disabilities, but we might even make it more likely that other people will be able to benefit from these policies and be part of this transformation.For instance, if I make my mass transit system accessible to people with mobility impairments, I鈥檓 also making it more accessible to people who have strollers and are bringing their kids on the tube. I鈥檓 also making it easier for the person who that day has something really heavy that they鈥檙e carrying, they鈥檙e more likely to take the tube if they can get in an elevator to get there. That鈥檚 what we need, we need these inclusive policies.Finally, I鈥檒l just mention an example of a good sort of idea, which is that if we鈥檙e going to be transforming these buildings and these infrastructures to make them more sustainable, we should absolutely also be doing everything we can to make those buildings and infrastructures more accessible. There is all these efforts to retrofit buildings to reduce our carbon footprint, and that鈥檚 really important. If you鈥檝e got these construction crews in there transforming how these buildings are heated, how they鈥檙e insulated, then it just makes so much sense to put in a little bit more money to also make sure those buildings are accessible.So that鈥檚 a really key part of this agenda that as people with disabilities we need to be working on, because it鈥檚 really directly affecting our lives and could either increase barriers or dismantle them.[Music]Keiligh-So let鈥檚 go back full circle back to COP26. This year obviously it鈥檚 brilliant that there鈥檚 more disability representation than ever before. But there鈥檚 14 days of events and not one of them is dedicated to disability. But there is a day dedicated to youth groups and that sort of thing. So I guess my main question is to both of you, what is happening at COP26 with disability conversations? Starting with you, S茅bastien.S茅bastien-聽Well, so there is going to be an unofficial delegation of different organisations of people with disabilities participating. There鈥檚 going to be the first official side event focused entirely on disability and climate change that will be happening. That鈥檚 an important opportunity to just talk about these issues with negotiators, with activists, and experts and practitioners in the negotiations.Formally on the agenda not much will happen. But in the sort to hallways and the conversations around the negotiations we鈥檙e continuing to be simply just raise awareness of this issue in the hopes of setting up eventually an entry point and getting onto the agenda. That鈥檚 really the key point here is getting onto the agenda.聽Then specifically the disability community is on the cusp of having a caucus, which will be an informal vehicle for having some kind of input in negotiations that the UN is going to recognise for the disability community. So that鈥檚 pretty key, and that鈥檚 a start.Keiligh-Again, reasons to be hopeful. How about you, Mary?Mary-There is another side event which is happening in the Green Zone which is the UK side, which is looking at mental health and climate change, so the impact of climate change on mental health and wellbeing. My colleagues in CBM UK are organising that side event with partners. That鈥檚 on 5 November.Keiligh-These all sound fascinating. Is there any way that us at home can keep abreast of what鈥檚 happening?Mary-The one that鈥檚 happening in the Green Zone, the UK, on mental health and wellbeing, can be subscribed through the YouTube channel. There is a link to subscribe, and I can give that to you if that鈥檚 helpful to put alongside the podcast.S茅bastien-聽We have a website, disabilityinclusiveclimate.org where we try to compile all resources that are on this topic. And we have a podcast series of people with disabilities as knowers, makers and doers in the climate field.[Music]Keiligh-Gosh, that was all rather enlightening. A big, big thanks to S茅bastien and Mary for joining me today. If you want to learn more, we鈥檝e popped some links from both of them in the page of this episode of the podcast. Just go to bbc.co.uk/ouch and find them from there. And while you鈥檙e at it, don鈥檛 forget to subscribe to the Ouch podcast on 主播大秀 Sounds where you鈥檒l find hundreds of disability conversations. You can also say, 鈥淎sk the 主播大秀 for Ouch鈥� to hear the latest edition on your smart speaker.聽Now we don鈥檛 do this just for ourselves, so if you鈥檝e got an opinion about this podcast, or if you want to tell us about your experiences with climate change, get in touch with us. Just email ouch@bbc.co.uk, and we鈥檙e also on Twitter and Facebook @bbcouch. Thanks for listening.[Music]