主播大秀

With the world going rapidly down the plug hole named depression - sorry - recession - is this really the best use of Newsnight time? After all - AND THIS IS NOT GIVEN ENOUGH AIRING ON THE NEWS - Andrew Sachs' granddaughter is an erotic dancer in a group called Satanic Sluts Extreme - so she's fair game...

I don't believe a tenth of the people who complained actually heard the programme, so they should be ignored...

The time to sack Brand and Ross is when they stop offending people - we're all becoming a tad too touchy in this PR-obsessed world.

Never mind about clowns like Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross, what should the 主播大秀 do about Gavin Esler's linking of the Clinton administration's early years to Senator Obama's possible working arrangements with a Democrat controlled Congress?

In all three cases, a P45 is the obvious answer.

As many here inhabit what I think is called 'the bubble', it is good to note that, at last, something has stirred in Aunty's bowels enough to realise that 'events' are unfolding closer to home.

And if not, heaven forfend, to address, at least to acknowledge.

However, I am saddened to note an attempt at being, here at least (I'm sure the show will be a beacon of balance) how to say... a tad 'optimistic'. I do think more than one paper has by now called for the tousled mane to be offered up. Even that rabid bastion of right-wing demagogery, the Grauniad, has been... unimpressed... and for a few days, too.







Aunty's PR firefighting loins have again been girded and acceptably (ah, that word) sincere...ish platitudes issued, if only when prodded. I even hear that things 'will be looked into', which is really something.

Now, who could that 'one paper' be?

But you know, I am not sure the 'You....Daily Mail reader!' riposte is working quite how it used to. Some of us are not. But still... concerned.

Best move on to 'Well, if you don't like it you don't have to pay... er.. watch it'. Oh.

Another angle, and it has been interesting watching some in the liberal media tie themselves in knots over this, is essentially erring on a relative's lifestyle choice to justify actions elsewhere. If one decides, in its defence of the 主播大秀 and its own, that he was 'asking for it' because well, she was too, the vixen, then the fallout with the sisterhood will be special indeed.

And if that doesn't play, there's the always interesting Judge Dreddesque approach, which is kinda cute for those of a more 'liberal' bent: 'Only those who were present and saw/heard it then and there can report, comment or subsequently have an opinion'. All two of you. Good luck with that. Will be a short programme in future on this basis..

Toys may be thrown out of pram as desired.

Is it actually possible for there to be any tangible manifestation of accountability in public service these days? I have seen so little evidence in the last decade or more (hmnn.. coincidence?) that maybe I should get in while the going's still mighty good. Now, if I joined the 主播大秀 but then got busted for not paying my licence fee would I basically be on permanent paid leave... 'til the pension kicked in.

Sweeeeet!

No way to run a country, mind.

HIGNFY and Mock the Week should be fun. Unless 'the word' goes out. Mind you, between senior management and some central offices doing the hokey-cokey as various staff luvvies and others implode elsewhere there may not be many left who are allowed on!

If only they had done it to Mrs. Palin, eh?

Normal service would have carried on serenely, no doubt.

Looking forward to a great show!

The truth is out there , somewhere in the fog of war



Sundays Special Forces Raid into Syria



"The Syrian government statement said eight people were killed, including a man and his four children and a woman. However, local officials said seven men were killed and two other people were wounded, including a woman among the injured.



An Associated Press journalist at the funerals in the village cemetery saw the bodies of seven men 鈥� none of them children. The discrepancy could not immediately be explained."


Is this true ?

its worse than the bee gees thing [see ytube]

regardless of the bbc hand wringing and any legal investigation the fate of the duo will be decided by their entertainment peers. if they refuse to go on their shows they will be defacto finished.

given the public reaction which star/celebrity etc would go anywhere near them and be associated with all that?

the bbc hand will be forced to remove them and probably keep them on full pay doing nothing?

the fact they [and the producers] have brought the bbc into disrepute isn't going to help the next licence fee round either?

as the days of the big bragging trader is over so the days of the bbc hollywood paid presenter looks finished too?

I don't care for Ross or Brand but if the Daily Mail are whipping this up to slag off the 主播大秀 then I support them as odious as they are. I smell a Tory witchunt....

Delighted to see the report on Georgia. I didn't peek as then there is no point watching the programme. Delighted!!

On Brand and Ross there is no debate - sack them!

Gavin! On the US the Democrats may have screwed up but lets put things in perspective. The Republicans cheated to victory, we have talk of a " hundred years war" plus Afghanistan. The economy has been likened to the Wall St Crash. They are trying to push GM. Health care is for the rich and those in plush jobs with big corporations (all going belly up). Half of Europe will go to bed next Monday and pray on their hands and knees for an Obama victory.

Even if the Democrats make mistakes they are going to look like Gods!

I accept what you say about the polls - but then that could work the other way. Lots of republican voters could turn and there could be a real meltdown. They are clearly having a major identity crisis and it will get a lot worse before it gets better.

As a future idea and to save the "goose steppers" finding an excuse to spout their hideous racist views how about a piece on making Holocaust Denial a criminal offence. Freedom of speech should be jealously guarded - but is this freedom to speak freely or freedom to lie. I think its the latter .

Did anyone see David Siletto on the 6 o'clock, he sort of put the ......stiletto in.

I can't think why the Ross Brand story has so totally dominated the newspapers and the TV news, with so many demands for their sacking. ........................................................How many journalists did Jonathan Ross say he was worth?:

A) 10

B) 100

C) 1000

D) About the same number writing the stories

What no joke today?

Why hasn't this one that's been in the papers and the web been published here?

What is the difference between God and Robert Peston?

God doesn't think he's Robert Peston

Sounds like this is shaping up to be a classic Newsnight .............

Not at all surprised that we were fed a line over South Ossetia ....

Valery Gergiev got that one right!

Did anyone ever follow-up that
Tbilisi "dum-dum" bullet story?

The injuries were real - but who was really responsible I wonder?

As for Russell Brand: I take the view that (as the older man) Mr
Jonathan Ross should carry the
can - on principle ..................

But how exactly should we handle
him? Replacement by Simon Dee
would really, really hurt perhaps?

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

As I wrote before what was good enough for Kenny Everett of the "someone must slipped him a fiver" fame, is good enough for the not so dynamic duo. They should be sacked.

Comment on Georgia/Russia/USA and the whole world:

Many questions can be asked by the situation with Georgia and Russia.

Is it Russia鈥檚 suppression and extermination of its own people during the seventy years of the Soviet regime? Or is it because it has supplied the entire world with weapons? Or because it is encouraging the development of the military atomic industry in third world countries? Or is it Russia鈥檚 aspiration to bring the other nations into submission and impose its 鈥渢ruth鈥� onto the entire world? What鈥檚 more, Russia has done all this by oppressing its own people!

To ascend above egoism means to make everyone equal, to love everyone, and to unite, instead of bringing everyone into submission like 鈥渢he older brother.鈥� I am not a politician, and I am not defending or condemning any side in this conflict. I am only pointing out a persistent tendency that Russia has. I think the period of Russian prosperity was when it was connected with Europe, when the Russian Tzars were in power. And that鈥檚 because the Tzars came from Europe, but they reformed and built Russia.

One can only judge an action after ascending above one鈥檚 personal and national egoism. I feel very sorry for the people of Russia, because once again, they will suffer from everything that is happening more than anyone else! No one is right in this conflict, because people are being forced to collide by egoism.

The fact is that the current crisis is global, and no one can hide from it because everyone is fully integrated in the international economics. This is why political decisions cannot go against the economic decisions, and since there is only one economy, this also forces politics to become one! This has never happened before in the world. There were crises of a purely economic nature, or purely political, or social crises, but the present crisis is universal! This means that no one can separate from the rest of the world.

Russia will experience the economic crisis harder than Europe, America, or China. Russia will also experience its own crisis of self-love, ambition, separatism, and power. It will recognize that it is a part of the rest of the world, and that it needs to stop being hostile and aggressive. It will realize that it can鈥檛 survive any other way. Blaming America for the economic crisis will not solve the problem.

The current events (the financial crisis, general depression, drugs, breakdown of the family unit, emptiness, aimlessness, the global crisis, the ecological crisis) are revealing to us the single and general reason for everything taking place 鈥� that we are all an integral part of Nature, that all of Nature鈥檚 parts are interconnected, and hence they must behave accordingly. However, we 鈥� humanity - do not behave this way. We are akin to a cancerous tumor in Nature鈥檚 single, harmonious organism.

Mankind must realize that it constitutes one whole organism, and the law of the common mutual guarantee - of care for every person and for everyone at once 鈥� is the essential condition of our collective survival. The principles, 鈥淒o not do unto others what you don鈥檛 wish done unto you鈥� and 鈥淟ove your neighbor as thyself鈥� are laws that determine the general balance of nature and our society. If we don鈥檛 abide by them, we will perish cause we choose to relate to one another for our own gain. We need to start making some inner changes and soon.

As far as the election goes the government is the government, no matter who gets voted in. REP and DEM are two different circles within the "same gang". And when did America people start believing/trusting in the American government to work for workers favor!!!??? History tells us better than this. One man in the government, within a system of corruption inside a larger system of corruption(the UN) will not change anything (if this is really his intentions), these are all his friends (government officials). Anybody's grandma could have went on TV and said we want change. We are all interconnected and we need to change how we deal each other and relate with each other. That's individually and among countries.

#11 Bill B

I remember when I was a child listening to the radio Kenny Everett made a comment about a member of the royal family getting off a speeding charge. I can remember who it was, but that might not get past the mods.

That caused a stooshie.

I can't really comment on this as I never listen or watch either of them. I used to think JR was funny. But his humour is like a one trick pony, it just never evolved, what he does seems more like a vehicle for his own ego.

There was a little known comedian who died some years ago called Bill Hicks. He was offensive. But with him it was a path to a higher purpose, there was philosophy, soul and spirit in his work. There was some meta physical enlightenment or just a kindred spirit saying things I thought too.

JR and RB I just don't find funny or enlightening. There is a Scottish comedian Frankie Boyle who is offensive, but I find him funny.

As to this answer machine stunt all I can say is every week in the local paper court casebook, people are convicted of far less re mobile phone and obscene phone calls.

I never watch or listen to either of them so wouldn't miss them.

Perhaps British culture and society might change for the better without the vacuous drivel. But I accept other people like them, so perhaps I should not comment on depriving them of something I wouldn't miss.

Also remeber Russell Brands new show on Channel 4 this week is really being hyped now!

Remember how it used to be to get a single to No 1. Get the 主播大秀 to ban it.

But then we return to Paul Mason's blog and Galbraith and Jay Forrester. The result, very often is the opposite to what was intended.

#12 Mr UnstoppableOne

WOW!

"We have an amazing film tonight which alleges serious human rights abuses by Georgian forces - that's right Georgian forces"

Interesting that you say "that's right Georgian forces", as if we should all do a double-take in disbelief. We knew from day one that Georgian forces launched a fairly indiscriminate artillery bombardment in a civilian area, so we hardly have to suspend our disbelief do we?

The truth is that when it comes to official enemies such as Russia, the 主播大秀 (as the rest of the media) is quick to stick the boot in. Just take a look at this report on the seige of Grozy by Robert Parsons.



He is brimming with anger over the actions of Russian forces. Yet when we had a very similar situation with US forces assaulting Fallujah, there was no such firey passion. Instead we had the headline "Fixing the problem of Falluja ".



Then take a look at this.

"Media coverage of the recent conflict is also far more restricted. That means the Russian military is free to act with much greater brutality."


When has the 主播大秀 ever accused the US military of acting with brutality? How many bombed weddings would that take? I won't hold my breath.

My comment seems to have been censored ....... which is a bit rich
coming from the 主播大秀! Was it cos
I mentioned the DJ Simon Dee as
a possible replacement for Woss?

How hypocritical of our Foreign Secretary who struted about in the Ukraine to denounce the invasion of Georgia without ascertaining any facts and condemning the invasion of a sovreign country when he was and is a member of the government that has invaded three sovreign countries, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq? And he actualy believes he can be the next Labour leader? I speak as a life long Labour voter and just about still an ashamed member of the Party.
Yours,
Indignanthassle

THINKING IT THROUGH

thegangofone (#7) "As a future idea and to save the "goose steppers" finding an excuse to spout their hideous racist views how about a piece on making Holocaust Denial a criminal offence. Freedom of speech should be jealously guarded - but is this freedom to speak freely or freedom to lie. I think its the latter."

Thank you for sharing your views on this matter. It may help clarify some of the implications of what you advocate if one substututes 'regulators' for 'goose steppers' as it has been right-wng, laissez-faire, deregulators who have been responsible for anarchistic policies which have de-nationalised and privatised so much of this country over the years in pursuit of profit for a minority at the expense of the majority. Relatively unrestricted immigration has been one of the tools in that arsenal, others have been the promulgaion of notions that there are no statistical differences betweeen the races and sexes despite the wealth of scientific research to the contrary. If anyone can not see how this has worked to the advantage of a minority at the expense of the majority, just look to who the allied denazification (which was anti-LEFT wing statism) of Germany was designed to punish, and who it clearly advantaged. Then consider how that has been exploited elsewhere to secure hegemonic/economic advantage.

The legislation which you crave would only serve to further reinforce the deregulated free-market anarchism which has caused financial havoc in recent times.

The Brand/Ross thing is a non-story.

It's interesting it takes a week for a huge whooping circus of the professionally outraged to pipe up, only just coming after the story about a Russian billionaire meeting senior members of both political parties.

Anyone asking for sackings there? Anyone asking (Cameron style) for transparency? Not now.

Perhaps they should invest in a yacht?

What's truly weird is the fact Russell Brand is hired to be all controversial and 'outrageous' and bob's your uncle, he does precisely what's expected of him.

Somehow, that's surprising for some people.

This is just an opportunity to hit at the 主播大秀. Labour can get cheap political capital by talking tough but doing sweet FA. The Tories can hit their least favourite liberal institution, which contrary to their instincts, is apparently one they like to 'regulate' and protect the impressionable public.

The fact is, if people are serious about wanting distinctive programming, which includes comedy that might be on the edge of offence, the experiment has to hold within itself the possibility of failure. If not, it's boring, ultra controlled TV, along the lines of some US networks (remember Bill Hicks) or the terminally tepid ITV.

Still, now the media covering this story, can criticize Ross and Brand, the 主播大秀 to boot and claim the moral high ground, while showing scantily clad pictures of Andrew Sach's daughter no doubt in the spirit of Brand himself.

With the credit crisis, we must be out of bread, but you know, there's a glut on circuses!

What a disapointing response to the J.Ross R/Brand situation.

I amazes me the 主播大秀 couldnt find a high level executive to respond to the 10,000 plus liscence payers, who have complained about this issue. Arrogance personified.

That "comedien" dragged in was a waste of money, I cant help thinking he was scratching around for a funny angle, along with unquestioningliy defending his proffesion.

The editorial issue is a big concern, but dont let it blind people to the real issue.

The candid exposure of the nasty, childish and disrespectful attitudes that lie behind these individuals ross and brand. Also it marks a watershed where the licence payers realise this is the time to make there voice's heard. The concensus is clear.....Sack them!

Of course Miliband doesn't care that Georgia is accused of Ethnic cleansing because his government has been doing it here in the UK for the past several years. Under John Prescott's " Pathfinder " project members of the indigenous population in towns like Burnley have been forcibly removed from their homes in order that they can be demolished in an attempt to rig the local housing market by artificially forcing prices up.

It is true to say that affected householders were offered compensation, but that was always far less than what they actually needed to buy a replacement home. Many who had paid outright for their adequate home were forced to take out a mortgage or pay inflated rents for " five star " accommodation. Of course the Corporate Nazi stock market parasites can't allow anyone to actually own their own home, everyone must be a slave to the corporate multinational cartel.

hmmmmm....Newsnight has just been on. Topics raised, questions asked. What better way for people to express their reactions than??.....An Online Blog!!

however, either the moderator is having an extended fag break...or each posting is going thorugh some Orwellian censorship procedure??....im glad i took the trouble to sign up now!

Next stop....Points of view or is it Ofcom?

A good report on South Ossetia but a couple of things were missed.

The oil pipeline was reported to have been bombed - and then had not been. It could be revealing to know when and how that was sourced. Was it black propaganda showing the Georgians planned the whole thing.

The US or the UK could confirm the Georgians story of the "pre-invasion". If they didn't then the tape offered to the 主播大秀 was also black propaganda.

The Russians claim they contacted the US to try and resolve the problems before they kicked off. Did the US ever confirm that?

I accept the Russians should have prevented the Ossetians cleansing the Georgian homes by the way - but to put it into perspective they hadn't planned this and were not prepared.

In my paranoid world the Georgians would not have tried this unless they thought, perhaps wrongly, that the US would back them.

Perhaps they misunderstood the signals?

At last the Georgian attack on Tshinvali is shown from the Ossetian side by the 主播大秀. In spite of the evidence Mr. Milliband could not bring himself to condemn Georgian actions but persisted (hypocratically) in vilifying Russia for invading a sovereign nation. Sakashvilli absolves himself by saying that he pre-empted a Russian invasion that had already begun (for which there is no evidence) and that Civilians had already left and those who were killed were in a warzone.
If Obama wins and U.S policies change (unlikely), will Mr Milliband change his tune?
Why, in these troubled times does this Government want to match the Republican Administration in how many enemies we can make? A better course would be to tone it down I would have thought.
I tend to agree with @StevenJMUK's comments about 主播大秀's reporting

ANOTHER FLOATER

David Miliband is yet another demonstration that our de-mock-crass-y promotes precisely the wrong personalities to power.
But then, as I point out ad nauseam, under the party system he was never chosen by ordinary voters for being himself, he was chosen as a rosette stand; a party proxy. Thereafter, his party (whose interest is power) elevated him for their own purposes. Now, there he is, with all the usual attributes of question-avoiding and dissembling, with a bonus of arrogance and hubris, doing his best to start WW III. Miliband has floated to the top of the murky Westminster pool, when in any other waters he would sink.
Ignore the rosette - study the character. SPOIL PARTY GAMES.

#22 NUMBER777UK

Agree I saw the website come up for disussion. I imagined a bank of mods hired in, in anticipation of money saved from Wossy going.

It was like a Guinness ad ...and he waited.. and he waited...and he waited.

For a comment on how long we waited.

Hardly encourages quick fire debate.

Perhaps the web team will explain how they are moderated.

Why oh why

I really can't understand why Andrew Sachs is being so gracious about the way this sorry affair has panned out.

Why, for that matter, should he accept these "apologies" at all? There's probably not a syllable of sincerity in them. The further Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand got into this mess the funnier they seemed to think it was. Russell Brand was certainly congratulating himself on the hilarity of it all!

They clearly don't recognise that the standards of behaviour that the rest of us have to live up to should apply to them, too.

So they should be sacked as much for their arrogance, sheer maliciousness - and, yes, amorality - as for the intrinsic offensiveness of what they said.

I didn't know Ross was a comedian until today, i always had him down as a 主播大秀 presenter. As for Brand, i didn't know he was a paid-up 主播大秀 comedian; maybe his audience consists of 19yr old students so thats why i don't 'get him'..

Channel 4 did a programme not so long ago called 'one hundred greatest comics'-

Bernard Manning came 29th(died last year)
Bill Hicks came 6th (died 14yrs ago)
Russel Brand came 69th (still alive) YES HE CAME 69ner.

Ross didn't appear on this list as he ain't a comic.

Something tells me we are been short-changed. The only thing i am enraged about is the pay deal the 主播大秀 gave Ross. As far i am concerned, don't sack Ross but change his pay deal: $拢300 a week plus taxi fare expenses and maybe a sandwich.. that i can live with and as for Brand...give him nothing!

P.S: seen Manning on many occasions and Hicks once, but trust me on this...they were in a different league compared to the likes of Brand, carr ( both of them ) ect..i think the 主播大秀 need to find some real talent and at a cheaper price.... and quick! because us Daily Mail reading, BNP supporting folk need good comedy.

I fear the MOD will kill me for that last line.
Hey! that line just found its way in there..don't read anything into that will yer.

Disclaimer: I am not a member of the BNP and have never been a member of the BNP....but its something that i may consider in the future :o)....

A interesting report by a Czech news site dated Aug 6 about the build up to the Georgian war or was it Russian Invasion ,pick the description you prefer.

Just woke up to Breakfast news about this... er... 'stunt'. Who sent out that memo? Maybe the Russians and Georgians were having a 'spat'? (See what happens when you view events though different lenses coloured to suit?)

I think there may be more, and its not going to be good, to come. Mr. Brown does not emerge from his bunker into the court of public opinion without being pretty sure which way the wind is blowing.

But just how 'acceptably unacceptable' his 'outrage' translates into, and what actually ends up being done, remains to be seen.

Not that we really were to find out from the story aired..

Our loyal host reads out the above... carefully worded and still 'optimistic' post... some four hours later on despite the reality of the situation across the media infirmament being perhaps a tad more than suggested?

And then we come to the show, which itself was an insight into editorial decisions.

First up, we get no senior 主播大秀 figure to comment, which was at least treated as political no shows in such circumstances are. Evidently the budget and hence staff cuts have also cut a swathe though the top talent floors, too. Maybe they are all in the US to report on the last few days there?

So we get a Newsnight twofer. Interesting the age divide. An older person not exactly supportive and a hip youngster who can't see the problem or what the fuss is all about (who ARE all these comedians I have never heard of on-call to the 主播大秀 when an edgy' opinion is needed? Though I thought he perhaps wisely, and I presume intentionally, left the humour out, and was bang on with the pols 'coming out' as they scent an opportunity to strut with little consequence).

Then, surprise, two (count them, two, split 50:50 on the issue; so on this basis I can't see the fuss either) more twofer vox pops. Again, one more mature gentleman and a younger supporter. No ladies available, I guess, though perhaps their views on being seen as fodder for our new-age comedic talents could not be aired, at least on TV after 11pm.

As to the 'points' about complaints; to any familiar with it there is no point to 主播大秀 Complaints. So why bother using this 'service"? That 10,000 have popped up above the water line suggests an iceberg awaits the good ship 主播大秀, especially as the way this whole event is still being 'handled' by the now discredited, isolationist, horse-bolted cookie-cutter mentality that is distracting, too often, the 主播大秀 from doing what it does well (or colouring almost anything done with a big question mark. I don't bother with any US coverage here): "It didn't happen. If it did we think it was fine. If it wasn't then we apologise... and will investigate. And then nothing will happen beause, really what can anyone do?'

Good luck with that.

what a lame, timid response from Milliband to last nights Newsnight interview over Georgia. The aggressors in this whole affair were Georgia with aspirations to be a member of NATO and yet everytime Milliband was asked about this aggressive stance he tried to hide from the facts and put the blame on the Russians. This whole foreign office attitude to Russia is one of total hostility and Milliband is their man to put the anti-soviet agenda at the top of any discussion, his complete refusal to address the question of Georgian aggression and genocide was matched by the Georgian president.

SACHS FACTOR (#27)

"I really can't understand why Andrew Sachs is being so gracious"

Marianne's words say so much about Britain today. We have eroded every fundamental of positive culture, to the degree that when such manifests (as with Sachs' response) SURPRISE is evoked.
This is all too clearly apparent in our morality-free politics and spite-filled 'entertainment'.

Britain is a long, long way down the wrong, wrong road; led by the wrong, wrong leaders ensconced in their Westminster citadel.
The Westminster citadel has a rampart of amorality, a moat of deceit and a fog of bogus war to protect it.

We need a hero.

An interesting read today.

#7 Go1

The freedom we must guard with our latest breath if necessary is the freedom to ask questions. I would fight to the death to prevent bigoted extremists from hi-jacking the freedom won for me by my forebears.

#27 Marianne

Well said! Hear-hear!

#32 Barrie

A hero? Time for the once and future king maybe?

On other matters...

Data protection breaches affect millions of lives



'the true scale of the misuse of personal information held by the state and private business'

'Cases include the loss or misuse of sensitive information'

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

go1 #35

FYI

My father was severely burned whilst on firefighting duties in London in February 1941.

My uncle was tail gunner on a Wellington bomber which failed to return from a night raid in 1942.

Stop screeching Go1, start thinking.

#33 Newfazer - Holocaust Denier

Which side were your forebears on?

Did you ever think of fighting yourself?

Freedom to ask question does not equal the right to tell a pack of lies about a proven historical event with millions of witnesses, confessions, physical evidence.

If you believe what you say then your "evidence" would surely win the day in court?

#18 Jaded_Jean - Holocaust Denier

"The legislation which you crave would only serve to further reinforce the deregulated free-market anarchism which has caused financial havoc in recent times".

Legislation on free speech does not relate at all to the economic system.

Like most of what you say its just contorted lies and base propaganda.

paul might want to look at the chat on the markets that the usa is running out of money to pay the interest on its debt.

it is now borrowing money from china just to pay the interest on the money it borrowed from china.

if creditors decide the usa cannot pay them back we will see the mother of all dollar selloffs as they sell t bills etc. The pound would shoot up.

another pyramid in the making?

#36 NewFazer

So assuming that is true that gives you the right to deny the holocaust happened and millions were not gassed?

I think not though I respect the sacrifice that they made against the Nazis.

You cite the need to think but you seem pretty short on the evidence. There were millions killed, millions of witnesses, physical evidence, documents and confessions. People connected to my family were in the camps and also found them.

If the kind of laws that would prevent holocaust denial work in Germany and Austria I would not be averse to something similar over here.

Go1 #37

I first posted this on

/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2008/10/a_slump_in_confidence_in_polic.html

but I think it bears repeating here.

#98 Go1

Let's get this straight, I am neither a holocaust denier nor an affirmer. I make no statement either way. But I do ask questions. Like; what was the total world Jewry in 1930? What has the birth rate amongst Jews been since then? And, what is the total world Jewry today? I would welcome your answers to these questions (along with your sources) as it is something I cannot equate with some of the major claims made about the holocaust.

To call JJ a 'holocaust denier' is to make an untrue statement. Nowhere on this blog or anywhere else to my knowledge has JJ made such a denial. JJ is kindly person, genuinely distressed by today's world of lies, deceit and intolerance. Anyone less likely to be found 'goose-stepping' I cannot imagine.

Some might demand that your libelous comments be deleted from here, but that would not be in the interests of free speech would it?

As for your 'comment' at #101, well now you are descending into childishness.

#40 NewFazer

You say you are not a holocaust denier - you just ask questions. But there are "major claims made about the holocaust" you reject.

Do statistics show that the bodies were faked, the buildings were not real, the gas was not used to save bullets, the confessions were faked, the families conspired, the soldiers that found the camps lied?

Get a life.

thegangofone (#37) You dismiss what you find difficult to grasp as contorted lies. I wonder if any 9 year olds have thought of using that as an argument not to learn trigonometry?

You also appear to have difficulties grasping that much that was once believed to be true has changed through research, questioning etc which you would be only to happy to see outlawed. One must ask why anyone would want to do such a thig (quite aside from the fact that the courts are not there to do that sort of thing, we gave that up in the Enlightement.

Can you see how the legislation which you would like to see enacted might advantage one group over other? Can you see how anti-racist legislation leads to affirmative action? Who campaigned for that legislation? Who was advantaged?

Say a group so advantaged made their living largely through speculation, financial services, the media, entertainment etc and that all of those activities are more strictly regulated under non laissez-faire Liberal-Democratic systems of government. Might not advantaged group not actively campaign to reduce the likelihood of more pro-regulation parties becoming too popular with the electorate? Isn't that precisely what happens in politics?

Might not vilification of autoritarian, centrally planned political economies like that under 1930s German National Socialism, or Stalinist Socialism in One Country, or modern Democatic-Centralism in the PRC or North Korea or 'Fascist' Islamic Fundamentalist states (all of which strive to strictly regulate) serve to reinfoce the principles of Liberal-Democracy domestically?

Why did the allies implement the denazification programme (which is where modern anti-racism began) after WWII? Was it not to reinforce an opposing socio-economic/political system in Europe (which has grown into the EU today)?

Have you not noticed how the West tries to undermine statist regimes through Human Rights and other NGOs? Isn't that explicitly to promote free-market Liberal-Democracy, an socio-economic system which is thwarted by regulations, i.e. command economies, i.e. Big Government?

I have pointed out that whatever truth there is to 'The Holocaust' much has been, and continues to be, distorted for political/hegemonic reasons. One only needs to look at the discredited exhibits provided by the Soviets at the IMT, the drastic revision down of deaths in the Eastern camps, the distortions about Belsen (people died from typhus but it's Belsen most people think of when they think of iages of the camps), the unreliability of many eyewitness accounts and depositions (acknowledged by anyone with any legal knowledge or other forensic competence who who has followed the post war trials) and the context of the trials themselves given the Tehran Conference and after. People died in WWII.

Many died in concentration camps, and elsewhere. How they died and why they died is still moot for many - it was a war against international Bolshevism and capitalism. That those deaths are still being expoilted/abused today by those who seek to gain personal/group/political advantage over others is not moot. It's obvious.

In case my #41 never gets posted:

#40 NewFazer

"Holocaust Schmolocaust" was the phrase YOU used on the Paul Mason thread. Quite revealing really.

If somebody genuinely did not deny the holocaust happened then I would apologise sincerely.

But you say you don't affirm it.

You cite statistics regarding survival rates of Jews post 1930.

So you are not agnostic.

You are cheerfully going to question it when people who have lost relatives in that hell had identified themselves to you.

As that implies denial to me then on the basis of what has been posted you can have an apology when Hell freezes over.

I am not a lawyer so I am not sure whether what you and Jaded_Jean posted means I can fairly describe you as a denier legally.

But its my opinion that you are a denier, that you know it and that you know its lies.

But ultimately I have not heard one word to say that the holocaust did happen.

I can't say what I think of you as this would never get posted if I did.

So the Brand Ross story did have legs. Siletto on the 6pm was right.

The Peston of (popular?) entertainment.

Then an idea struck me, check the schedule who Ross would have had on on Friday.

Oh yes no wonder he was suspended, just how would the 主播大秀 have got out of that.

Just to get past Mods

A) Total 主播大秀 100% Royalty. His most serene highness and most holy of the holy.

Have to check with my accountant, but as the 主播大秀 pay Rossy 17 million he is actually classed as a liability.

Now his guest. Who may be the biggest revenue generator for the 主播大秀.

It wouldn't surprise me if he was, therefore an asset.

No way could the 主播大秀 risk him anywhere Ross after this week either morally or financially.

B) Big in the US, wholesome family entertainment. Now getting ready to break into the UK just ready for the Christmas market.

Now lets look at her demographic. Yes an audience of children/teens.

But who will be purchasing and why on Ross for exposure.

I bet her products will be bought by Grandmas and Grandpas, as little extras, stocking fillers.

Wasn't someone involved in insulting a 'kindly Granpa' suggestions he might commit suicide?

If the 主播大秀 hadn't done it I suspect her agent/management would have done it. Or they might have already done.

C) HaHaHa. Can anybody name any comedian who can be more offensive than 10 Brand/Ross duos.

Yes 90% of you got that right. He would have sat there, smug. He could have destroyed Ross on his own show.

This would have been either a none event. Like the two Samurai who in a duel draw swords and none make a move. After a day both walk away and only they know who won.

Or it would have been a blood bath. The 主播大秀 would not have been able to show it.

Was Ross going to be suspended. We only needed to check the Friday night schedule to know he was.

And next week. If C) was bad, wait till D) Mr Smugness himself gets a grip on him.

The 主播大秀 will not have a show, what can they do, say to him 'Don't mention the Sachs'.

We all know where that comedy line leads.

#41 Go1

Again you avoid the issue and misrepresent what has been said. I did NOT say I rejected the figure of 6 million (or was it 7 million threnodio?) I said I could not equate it with the figures which you would find in answer to my questions.

I have not mentioned bodies, buildings, gas, bullets etc. (Why should I? I am not a holocaust denier.) Although now that you mention it, I will say that the confession of Rudolf He脽 would not stand up in court today. But the Nuremberg trials were a more acceptable event to the western allies than was Stalin's wish to execute 150,000 German officers as an act of vengeance.

I am tired of this and you, as I am sure other readers must be by now. Until you confront evidence and lay aside your beliefs there is no point in continuing.

#45 NewFazer

I would only lay aside my beliefs on the basis of facts.

I am not avoiding the issue but I am not going to be drawn down a blind alley. threnodio rebutted the statistics argument far better than me.

When you mention the statistics what is it that you believe that they show?

You accept the fact that it was millions that died in the death camps?

I am prepared to apologise if I was wrong.

But when somebody starts citing statistics about how many Jews survived the period in relation to the holocaust I do think it is reasonable to be suspicious and ask questions.

It would help a lot if you explained what you disagree with in the "the major claims of the holocaust".

Personally I do believe Jews were killed by the Nazis in WW2. This is from books, TV etc and friends of my dad who got to the camps more or less first.

So I don't want to be branded as a Holocaust denier.

About 40,000 children die everyday because of lack of medical attention or even clean water.

That is 400,000 in 10days. 4 million in around 4 month ish. 12 million per yearish.

The natural communities of the world are being destroyed. Forests burnt, animal and plant species made extinct.

We fly planes halfway round the world to drop bombs on children, because someone imagines non existent weapons.

The oceans are being poisoned and treated like a sewer or dump.

Soon very soon there will be nothing left. A beautiful planet full of life destroyed.

If and I mean if anyone survives. When people look back from 60 years into the future.

It will not be the Nazis who will be the butchers of history, the evil empire.

It will be us. Those who committed the crimes, those who were complicit, those who benefited and those who did nothing to stop them.

MAN'S INHUMANITY

History is replete with examples of man's inclination to brutalise and/or exterminate perceived variants of his own kind, WHEN CIRCUMSTANCE PERMITS. ('The Lucifer Effect' by Zimbardo, investigates and illustrates.)
We, the British, have played our part (Tasmanians, Boers, Native Americans, Africans) and done a bit of cockeyed apologising.
And the Spanish made a 'pretty good fist' of South America.
Each major war is larger, more technological, and potentially more destructive - in human terms - than the one before. And the destruction is ALWAYS justified by the destroyers.
The fault lies in the way we think. Under the surface, we all despise 'them' (I'm talking testosterone ladies) and sooner or later, ANY group-identity, with a loopy leader and a weapons advantage, just can't resist having a go.

Just about every aspect of our behaviour is now being put in the ubiquitous scanner. Just wait till they show how bloke-brain lights up when he perceives 'difference' - no matter how prejudice-free he professes himself. Then we can bung the New Man in there and see what his brain has to say . . .

I'll get me coat.

thegangofone (#46) "But when somebody starts citing statistics about how many Jews survived the period in relation to the holocaust I do think it is reasonable to be suspicious and ask questions."

You should ask questions. You should ask if it is true that a) there were ~15 million Jews in the world in 1933 and 14 million today and if b) European TFRs are below replacement is not the Jewish population today a tad high? Is it not reasonable to *question* whether millions of Jews died in WWII rather than got lost behind the Iron Curtain or died from typhus epidemics or were casualties of war.

celticlion #47) "Personally I do believe Jews were killed by the Nazis in WW2. This is from books, TV etc and friends of my dad who got to the camps more or less first."

Were they in ? There were no 'extermination camps' in Western liberated areas. It was all allegedly done in Soviet liberated areas, and if you want to know what the Soviets think, have a look at and do a bit of thinking. Today this is politics not scholarship. Even Abass doesn't talk about it because of the Oslo Accords.

Are you sure you know how to do research?

ALL'S FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR?

What better way to made Germans (and abandon the evils of state planning National Socialism) than to make out that their leaders santioned appalling treatment of Jews and others in concentration camps (mainly in Eastern Europe where nobody could look into it to carefully given the Soviets had made it a no go area)? It might even loosen those Teutonic regulators up a bit and make them more Liberal-Democratic/fond of free-market capitalism. Come to think of it, why no extend that everywhere else as it might help spread free-market capitalism which can be very lucrative for some, it would also keep that Rusky red stuff at bay. An exaggeration here, an omission there - after all, all's fair in love and war.....Hayek, get to press....we don't want any of that Old Labour National Socialism here.

thegangofone (#39) "There were millions killed, millions of witnesses, physical evidence, documents and confessions."

And much of this has been challenged and revised as a consequence of research. That is what research is all about. You must take on board that some of the court cases have nothing to do with the events of WWII per se, but have been civil cases e.g. libel. In Europe, laws were enacted to secure a particular type of politics and to discourage the revival of National Socialism. But it was as undemocratic to pass laws which proscribe National Socialism as it was to initially ban the communist party in Russia. We already have national and international laws which proscribe ethnic cleansing, genocide and other war crimes. What you want is naked capitalism whether you know it or not. Maybe it's genetic?

#49 JJ

Now you are starting to master your subject, now you are mastering how to write.

Someone wrote a person can only understand a subject if they can explain it simply and concisely.

You have written acres in these blogs, up to now. Suddenly above you have come up with two paragraphs in which you have presented your case.

Now read what I wrote, again. "Personally I do believe Jews were killed by Nazis in WW2".

Do I mention concentration camps, gas etc?

You say typhus. Can I assume we have a situation where people were taken from their homes and placed in camps.

If there is a epidemic. Is this due to overcrowding. Unsanitary conditions. Lack of medical facilities.

Under modern law, this is still death due to neglect, or a lack of duty of care.

They would not have died if they had not been put there.

I could put you in a room and shoot you. I could put you in a room and let you starve to death.

Is one any less a crime than the other?

What we have now is a discussion about the causes of death. But many of those deaths would not have occurred if people had not been removed from their homes.

You may be writing from a nice comfortable existence, I am also trying to survive.

My dog died a constant companion for 17 years. We have walked the woods, hills, forests and mountains together.

I would identify wild flowers, check the trees for lichen, how possible climate change was affecting leaf fall. Sat by streams at midnight watching bats. With him he knew the language of animals and I have stood silent as a fox came up to him to touch noses.

I gave him a Celtic warriors funeral. A cremation at sunset on the banks of a river in a clearing in a Glen as the land rises to the highlands. He was surrounded by wildflowers I had cut to remind him of our years together and a symbol of the beauty of his life.

It rained and rained, when the fire died down he was gone. All night I stood in the rain.

I put my coat on the back of a chair in the conservatory.

A week later I went for a walk, I didn't know whether to go and see some friends at a gig. I had been a venue and technical manager so sometimes help out.

Or I didn't know whether to walk into the hills and sit, for the first time in more than a third of my life, on my own.

The rain was lashing down so put on my coat. Of course I got stopped by the police.

Let me tell you about racism. My fathers family is Welsh, my mothers Scottish.

I was born in England, an English accent, a northern English accent, but still English.

This is the heart of nationalist country. Did I get it. I am 6ft 15 1/2 stone of muscle. If they had been muggers with knives robbing an old lady I would have asked them to go home. Their next decision and consequences would have been theirs to determine.

What was I supposed to do, a Rambo. All I could do was passively take it. Lying in a gutter running with water, blood running into my eyes from where my forehead had been stood on.

The handcuffs were put on so tight my wrists were bleeding, the tendons were crushed. I would not be able to open and close my hands for 3 days.

Of course I suddenly remembered I might still have a knife in my pocket so I told the police.

What went on in the police station, was not from The Bill. Without clothes I was in solitary with a blanket round me. I could not have a solicitor.

To court, then straight to a Cat A Prison. An English accent going to the prison that serves Scotland from Aberdeen, down to Dundee, Perth and then down to Fife.

Everyone was very nice. What we had in common was we were all in prison. So when I told the story, of my dog dying, then going out, which happened to be my birthday was too much from some. They were laughing so much they were crying.

Then when I got to lying in the gutter with the blood running in my eyes, they were unable to take anymore. Those who were not now doubled up on the floor with stomach cramps were finished off when I got to the having the knife in my pocket. They were now begging to be released as the story had got unbearably tragic in a hilarious way.

But it was still a conviction and I have lost everything. But I have been through the 'justice system' and know it from the inside.

There is not much justice. It is just a processing system for human beings to keep other people in jobs.

I can say I enjoyed it, it was an exercise in survival and an education. It is not the Bill, Kavanagh QC or Judge John Deeds. It is brutal and has nothing to do with truth or making a better world.

thecelticlionltd (#52) "Now you are starting to master your subject, now you are mastering how to write.

Someone wrote a person can only understand a subject if they can explain it simply and concisely."

I have been told that I write concisely, too concisely. I suspect you have finally understood some of what I have been saying - that's all. I therefore suggest that you go back through the archive with a skip of 10 and see if more of what I have been saying is now comprehensible. I've never maintained it is easy or palatable, just true.

Good coverage on Georgia, also appreciated the clips from Georgiev's concert in Tskhinvali a month or so back. Traditionally (past 20 years), Newsnight's coverage of Russia has been constructive. A follow up film could show what the Russians are doing in terms of reconstruction since they were the first to announce about $500 mn in humanitarian aid and reconstruction assistance. Is this the only funding for reconstruction in South Ossetia and is this money being spent on properties for both Georgians and South Ossetians? I would also like to know what the South Ossetians are doing about running a government - is it looking viable or a lawless corrupt fiefdom? same applies to Abkhazia.