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Gordon's famous words again "whatever it takes" After PMQ today, I am beginning to read new meaning into those words. The public need answers. Their money is being used as a sticking plaster over a festering wound and there has been no diagnosis. Just when are the public going to be made aware of the true scale of this crisis. Then and only then can we move forward. GB asked DC in PMQ today "What would you do?" How on earth can that be asked, let alone answered if the banks are not made to disclose the true extent of their toxic debts in the UK. It was notable today that GB used the words "we will be talking to the banks" With this sort of rhetoric, it is no wonder, we haven't got to the bottom of the problem. DC is spot on when he confirms the public want answers. The government seem to be under the misapprehension that the public are stupid. We all know this is going to cost us dearly but before we can truly prepare for the worst, much less find a solution, we need to know "HOW MUCH?"

Rodgers [Ex Quantum Fund who made billions out of the Bank of England during the ERM] is still telling anyone who listen 'The City of London is Finished', 'The Uk has nothing to Sell' , 'The Uk is finished' view. [See FT or Bloomberg]

So we must assume the the markets will be betting against the UK ie that it will fail now that the Govt has become like 'a bad bank' .

and markets like one way bets. they tend to become self fulfilling- so traders will not see much risk in betting against the uk.

does Gordon still think uk tax havens [from where these bets are being launched'] a good idea?

what can change that perception? Change the narrative? Looking for those sectors in which there is growth.

Rodgers said he would change his mind if the Uk found new oil fields [but he doubts it will]. Well in a way we do have new 'oil fields'. A feed in tariff has proven to generate hundreds of thousands of jobs and generate billions in income. Yet the govt still block it and think there is no urgency in bringing it in. They plan to 'look at it' in 18 months time [ie in teeth of an election].

So the financial situation brought on by Govt incompetence is now added to by the Govt turning its back on the new energy in order to worship nuclear.

Ian Lacey (Kristy)

Excellent remarks from Tuesday's Show..

1) And we'll be asking why the markets don't seem to believe in the latest bailout.
-The banks and markets don't believe it because, they know there is underlying problems that need to be solved...

2)Unemployment: That is a going to be a long-term problem in the U.K and also around the world....

3)Obama's big day: It was shadowed by the downturn in the economy in the United States...

4)Cameraman Shoaib Sharifi reportage about his week at the Hospital in Afghanistan; I hope that there will be information, it will make it online ....

~Dennis Junior~

Isn't ironic, if not just plain silly, that we are allowing success, in recovering our billions of recent government investments, to be judged by the very same people, city traders who live by juggling the market indicators, that got us into this mess in the first place.

Not only that but immediately after suspending 'shorting' the banks share values started to achieve some form of stability. Now, a day or so after allowing it to take place again, their shares are under attack once more. Its hardly surprising when the only game in town traders can play is betting on collapse; especially where they know they can force that collapse. Who in government failed to learn the lesson, and let them of the hook again?

As for Cameron, despite his claim to be a patriot and despite his brief flirtation with a consensus, he is the worst of all at selling us short. I am expecting him, some day soon, to rush into the chamber shouting "fire...fire"; to see how many of his peers get trampled to death in the rush for the exits. Is there no longer any honour in doing the right thing? But what am I thinking, he is a politician!

Gordi doesn't know what "whatever it takes" means because he doesn't know the extent of desolation in the banks' balance sheets; and he doesn't know because the banks played "off balance sheet" games just like he did with PFI.

This belated, half hearted approach is quickly resembling the Japanese doldrums of the 90's; and that lasted a decade.

So if he takes anything from the new US Presidential approach, perhaps it could be this; straight talking and decisive action.

Yes we can, already!

mercerdavids (#4) "Who in government failed to learn the lesson, and let them of the hook again?"

Is it conceivable that this is being permitted so that HMG can buy its stake in the banks as cheaply as possible?

Nationalize Lloyds Group and RBS; give RBS to Alex "the Arc" Salmond and his "people of Scotland".

Turn Lloyds into a co-operative credit union with every basic tax payer receiving an equal share; issue vouchers, convertible only to goods, from the co-operative to every member of it; to maintain a share in the co-operative, members must deposit a minimum of 1GBP per month.

Barclay's; let them decide their own fate; protect the depositors and insist that each member of staff whose job is made redundant receives the same terms of release as the executive directors eg if directors get a year's notice in lieu, then so do the workers.

Begin to re-shape the manufacturing base of the country by investing the 2.5% reduction in VAT in making things, not buying things; the new generation of alternative, sustainable power sources and the necessary supporting infrastructure sounds like a reasonable start.

Remember, however; for all his political life in Government, Gordi has been a tinkerer, not a shaper, like Obama.

But if enough of us insist, there are plenty of people willing and able to help him shape things; he just needs to let them in.

Darling is no mug; yes he can, without the muzzle.

Darling knows the days of easy spending on health and education are over, because the tax receipts from the financial services sector will no longer be there; he knows things need to change, and quick.

Andiamo, ma presto!

UNEMPLOYMENT

On this day of another big rise in unemployment, I received an email from an english friend living in Costa Rica.

Her sons young girlfriend, who is a Costa Rican has been given a work permit allowing her to work here for 2 years. Why? A charming girl I am sure, but do we need another worker! We have no connection with this country, but even there they can get permission to work here!

kashibeyaz (#7) "Nationalize Lloyds Group and RBS; give RBS to Alex "the Arc" Salmond and his "people of Scotland".....

Turn Lloyds into a co-operative credit union with every basic tax payer receiving an
equal share"

Is that every BASIC RATE taxpayer or every taxpayer? With 30 million taxpayers (it's good sending women out to work isn't it, it increases revenue, equality/schmality) at today's Lloyds TSB share price, each taxpayer would get about 245 pounds (less than 520 shares each). Incidentally, do you know why many people are poor? What is the relationship between 'educability' and earning power/income/SES?

Just for some context, HM Revenue and Customs gets about 447 billion a year, only 151 billion of which is from income tax (about 98 million is from NI and 44 billion from Corporation Tax). Where's all the money coming from to pay for these bailouts and equity stakes?

"Barclay's; let them decide their own fate; protect the depositors"

And all the people who were urged to invest in the economy rather than just keep their saving in the bank? What about them? Yields form banks are not much better than what one gets from Building Societies etc. What about all the people with pension funds invested in banks like Barclays and Lloyds? Is it just poor people who don't earn much (or do/contribute much who you think should get handouts, and over how many years is that 245 pounds to be paid to them as the 151 billion a year from income tax has to go on education, defence, health, social security etc each year.

Munchkin capitalists have privatised profit and socialised loss for so long they think it's a natural law of physics.

Shareholders win and lose; this time they lose;

Pension funds? It's like private hospitals and schools; without them, the state pension would be so much more meaningful, the school system would have better teachers - the real issue about education - and we would not need to pay consultants so much to keep them in the NHS.

Time for action.

If the banks toxic assets aren't even known to themselves because of the opacity of the securitization process, how can a 'bad bank' be created to take the toxic assets off their books? Furthermore, if the processes whereby they effectively spread their bad risks is no longer as viable as it once was, why is anyone expecting them to lend to anywhere near the same extent as before?

Aside from that, one indicator worth bearing in mind is that one of the two traditionally conservative, international banks, showed little equity capital growth over the past decade, and so far, it's the one which has weathered the storm best.

That looks like a good model does it not?

kashibeyaz (#10) "Pension funds? It's like private hospitals and schools; without them, the state pension would be so much more meaningful"

You still don't get it do you? That's what happens when one irrationally dismisses what messenger say. Because of our low, below relacement level, TFR and our high differential fertility, we have an ageing (at one end) and a dumbing down (at the other) population. This portends a) loss of infrastructure (not enough smart people to sustain and deliver services) and b) more pensions plus higher health-care costs and more strain on social-security.

So, please explain, how does the state pension become more 'meaningful'? In fact, where will an adequate state pension come from? Lots of people supplement it through investment in pension funds etc (where does the government invest?).

I am troubled by a few things.

The first is the phrase Gordo used some weeks ago - a stitch in time saves nine - he said. Now, I may be mistaken, but I have the feeling that he's used a lot more stitches than one, or nine in fact. it contrasts worryingly to the other famous government phrase - whatever it takes.

The second is that when pushed by Cameron, Gordo can only utter this silly phrase about the conservatives doing nothing - it is no answer at all.

The third is to do with the idea of a toxic bank. Now this may well be a good solution to the current situation, but I do not like the idea that the taxpayer will pick up the bill for this. The bad debt was created within the banking industry and a lot of people made a great deal of money during its creation - the banking industry must finally bear the cost of their folly. I do not hear the government suggesting this though.

The fourth (and I'll stop at this) is that Gordo is very quick to jump on anyone "talking the situation down" but does not seem to mind so much that he takes actions which make the situation a great deal worse - for instance Gordo rebuked Ozzy for talking the pound down, but when the bank base rate went down and the pound sank incredibly fast he said nothing.

Yes we can! Guantanamo to be closed, those prisoners prosecutable to appear in federal courts - moving right along.

More reports like the Aghan hospital, please; the more we see things like this, the more we will be able to question the purpose of nato troops there, without reliance on MediaMurdoch and HMG spin.

And Kirsty only interrupted twice!

I'm no friend of McFall and certainly not Stelzer - -but looks like the N word is becoming more popular by the minute.

Really disappointed at the lack of objectivity in tonight's programme.
In a search for a cheap headline we had Kirsty saying that the UK's unemployment rate is now higher than the Netherlands, Slovenia and the Czech Republic to name but three.

What about the UK's unemployment is still lower than Germany , France, Italy or Spain - to name but four more appropriate comparisons !

Not such a good headline I accept but is it not realistic to expect Newsnight to be balanced anymore ?

SYMPTOMS OF DECLINE?
I cease to rail at Kirsty's diction (very indistinct tonight) and now wonder if something is wrong?

In the Kandahar hospital, with all that bloody carnage, the close-up 'art shot' of a wobbly trolley wheel should get some award for consummate insensitivity.

The wobbly trolly wheel is a nod to the 'Jacobs ladder' flick me thinks. Its not original but reports need video filler for narrative and there is a natural tendency to get creative with the camera, the editing ect. Barrie, it could be said that your written work is an art form in itself, worthy maybe of a newsnight critics award. As for the report itself...emotional buttons pressed... empathy, horror and anger...thats what i think the viewer got from it, i certainly did!

I have decided to declare Brown as finished. I came to this conclusion after watching him at the dispatch box with cameron at question time today. When Brown said that Cameron was"out of his depth". Browns delivery of these words and his demeanor gave the keen-eyed viewer a glimpse into his tortured soul...and it said the following:

"i am finished, i can't keep up this pretense anymore, all of my darkest fears are coming true, i can't delude myself anymore ....."

it goes on and on but you get the gist of it. yeap, Brown is finished.

Do tell me you saw that!!

Some good postings and as I am only able to snatch a few minutes reading them, too many issues to comment about, but good points.

Those who have read my stuff before know am a Labour Parrty member and not prepared to "jump ship" for our time will come again, after another 18 years of Tory misrule- how people forget- I come from a mining family so the "iron" entered my soul some years ago.
However I must agree with Cookieducker 17 I thought Brown's body language was not convincing (one of my areas of study at Uni many moons ago). and yes I am getting tired of the words will do everything in our power-What?
What next? Definitely the Nationalisation of Banks as the last throw. I liked someone's idea above of favourable tax rates for the "producers" of this country.

So long as nobody starts calling for "helicopter views" and "blue sky thinking"! Then I know we are deep in the proverbial.

MY PARTY NEW OR OLD (#18)

Help me Bill. What's in a name? At 71, to me, 'a name' seems to be all that remains of the Labour Party that originally 'came from labour'.

There was a time when parties had a dogma - like a church - and signing up was an act of faith. What is more, adherents 'went down with the ship' when a voting-majority holed their beliefs below the water line. Now they just re-paint and re-register in a port of convenience.

J Gordon Brown's (possessive apostrophe) party is in bed with extreme wealth, and high priest Mandy has 'seen that it is good'.

My stubborn alliegiance (flawed) is to principles, not party, and I guess yours was too (de facto) once.

Surely, principles in politics now count for nothing, unless lies, hypocrisy, dissembling etc etc are the new principles? So why is Bill Bradbury still signed up?

"Lord Turner, head of the City watchdog, said parts of the regulatory system were "seriously deficient"".

No, really?

So Labour has to acknowledge that there were mistakes made on their watch and fix them.

People will forgive mistakes but won't forgive not fixing them when the government knew it had to be done.

At least they are not goose steppers.

;-)
ed

Dennis Junior (#3). Article and film on the Kandahar hospital .

A GAME OF TWO HALVES (#17)

The body language point well made CD. I 'registered' the 'retreat' as the jibe was in effectually delivered but did not formalise it, as you rightly have. (I have the image in my head so it made an impression.)

In keeping with my thesis that PMs distil from a swamp of 'rosette stand' cipher MPs, Blair and Brown are extremes, in my view.
They are both 'split': Blair - part Messiah and part desperate child; Brown - half saintly son of the Manse and half bitter child.
I suspect Blair actually KNEW his alter ego, so wonderfully carried by Campbell, but for most of the time 'looked away'. But Gordon appears to be Jekyll and Hyde. Perhaps what you saw was an early inkling of his
duality? If the son of the Manse should ever realise Mr Hyde is a cheat and liar who has fiddled the money in a multitude of ways and brought ruin, some sort of self-destruct is on the cards.

My concern is that party politics is so configured as to give rise, inexorably, to one aberrant 'leader' after another. Hence my impotent cry: SPOIL PARTY GAMES.

DON'T KNOCK 'THE GOOSESTEPPERS'

thegangofone (#20) "So Labour has to acknowledge that there were mistakes made on their watch and fix them."

It's disingenous nonsense from all convcerned as usual. They devolved control of the economy to the market with light touch regulation ensured via inadequate number of and 'incentivisation' of staff in the FSA. In any rational, just, world (Billbradbury note what Barrie said as I was going to say much the same), this band of narcissistic, anarchistic, arrested-development opportunists would have been thrown out of office long ago, but instead, they're reinforced for claiming that they're going to 'fix it'. Meanwhile, all the drivers of this mess continue to build, and our screens and newspapers continue to be saturated with images* glorifying the very behaviours/values which reinforce what they're allegedly going to fix.

*Golden Globes, Oscar Nominations, celebrities, Talent Shows, pop science, most fronted by pretty young things - i.e. a never ending stream, of inconsequential, irreal rubbish which appeals to the highly dysfunctional who sadly now comprise 'the norm'.

That's dysgenesis, i.e. 'the market' at work.

Has Obama sent any signals regarding his attitude to dubious oil and rebuilding contracts in Iraq and the tender process. Panorama did that excellent programme a few months back and Cheney was associated with some of the companies (Haliburton and others if I recall).


Probably it would raise partisan issues but there is the law.

Malaki probably has quite strong views too.

Barrie posting 18, Why am I still signed up? Because there are still a few of us left who have continually objected to "New Tory"- sorry New Labour- why vote Labour when you can vote for the real thing?

As I have bored everyone many time before over the book "Thatcher and Friends" where John Ross wrote in 1983 that whenever Labour gets back into power it will be locked into the Tory Agenda and its love of the City of London and the bankers that by the turn of the century the electorate will see no difference between the two major parties. How true.
I prefer to fight from within than standing on the sidelines shouting "ya-boo". Our time will come again but not under Gordon. We have lost our priciples but I certainly won't be supporting the Tory ones they are as clueless as Gordon.

Perhaps Barrie we might get back to a Labour agenda that looks after its workers and the producers of wealth than climbing into the bed with the off-shore tax evaders and City. As to Bonuses by the Banks, which we now own all but in name, he should allow them to do this as many are "contractual" but tax them at 90-100% depending on your generosity.

"Power to the People" -- where's my Citizen Smith berry?

holly345bolly#15;

I think what we experienced was Kirsty's Kilmarnock take on irony; it won't happen again.

Does it really matter what Gordi's body language may or may not indicate? His visual problems may well have an influence on his spatial awareness.

American citizens, whether it's vox pop, spokesperson or politician are so much more fluent, articulate and at ease when discussing issues than the crew usually served up for our delight and delectation here. Their language is more precise and less sprinkled with cliche and newspeak.

Notice how Stelzer was taken aback by Kirsty's use of "fessin' up" then adopted it wryly when responding?

Did she pick that one up from Jeremy?

Catchya!

"A Tory MP has asked Business Secretary Lord Mandelson to investigate the Standard's change of ownership."


So does Lebedev have a yacht?

Financial Illiteracy spreads Panic?

On news boards i have seen people talking about uk bankruptcy and so they are stocking up on tinned food and getting ammunition for their gun as if uk bankruptcy means living in some Judge Dread film wilderness.

All it means [if it happens] is borrowing money. Or do people think the Uk will not be here in 5 years or 25 or 50 years?

They also believe the end of the pound means the end of the uk as a country.

The greatest danger to the uk is fear based on ignorance. Has the British pride of lions been replaced by a headless chicken dance troupe?

The worlds financial problems are in the trillions and we have rescue packages dabbling in the billions .... but here's the Golden Globes to take your mind off of it, thanks Ö÷²¥´óÐã news!
Rioting in European capitals for months now ... but here's The Oscar nominations to ta ........ etc

..financial problems are in the trillions..

in the same way anyone with a mortgage has a problem in the thousands they are only paying off in the hundreds. Clearly if you remove the time element of a mortgage ie 25 years then everyone would be in trouble?

So people are trying to value 20 year securities today with a cash value. impossible.

who knows how much their house will be worth in 20 years?


if they believe it will be worth 50% less then they would have made a technical loss and so be insolvent. if they believe it will be 50% more then they would in profit and in a sound financial situation.

because of mark to marke rules banks are having to guess what their assets will be worth on maturity based on what they could sell them at today. As the market is not buying anything they have to say zero and so people say ooh you are insolvent and a 'bad bank'.

so if the rules allowed them to just park those assets [for a fee] till everything calms down e.g 5 years the problem will solve itself. Those assets are still generating income in the form of payments.

without mark to market rules [that came in relatively recently] there would not be this problem. There might still be losses but not the number talked about now.

They now do almost anything so long as it can't be shown that there was an intention to deceive. First the 'Cash For Honours' investigation goes nowhere, then exoneration but not quite for unintentional non-declarations of donations through the Progressive Policy Forum - and to top it all, it seems that claiming one is just too busy to do one's job properly is at least worth a try these days.

There are a lot of busy people about, e.g. Northern Rock employees, allegedly to get 10% bonuses for doing their jobs.

- "We understand that the pressures on Ministers and on front-benchers can be onerous, but we cannot accept - and we are sure that none of them would suggest - that this excuses them from their obligations under the rules of the House." -

The report indicated that usually the failures would have attracted a "heavier penalty", but Mr Hain had already lost his job. -

He's not unemployed is he?

I can take the credit crunch, banks crashing but spare me a shrill Kirsty. Why does she have to shout? Is it because of her scottishness, because all scots shout more than they should, perhaps she was brought up in a family of boys and had to fight her corner more than most but for a Newnight presenter she could tone it down a little...after all, we're not all Rob Roys...

Barrie,

"J Gordon Brown's (possessive apostrophe) party is in bed with extreme wealth, and high priest Mandy has 'seen that it is good'.

My stubborn alliegiance [sic](flawed) is to principles, not party, and I guess yours was too (de facto) once."

Kirsty's from Kilmarnock, in Ayrshire in Scotland.

If someone is far away, eg in the US, but appearing on screen in - studio, the Killie background kicks in and she shouts - because the person is far away and might not hear her.

She's come a long way though and no public trace of a fermer's accent is detectable.

The accent I find intolerable is the chap from the Spectator; talk about strangulated hernias in full voice!

so people get a better idea

What Happens when Countries Go Bankrupt?

Talking of Mr. Obama, I would like to draw peoples attention to the following article:



It talks, at some length, about Mr. Obama's treatment of the Guantanamo detainees and their future treatment in detention.

I would now like to draw you attention to the penultimate sentence in the piece. I would cut and past it, but refrain from doing so in fear of copyright, moderation problems, etc. All I can say though, is that it talks about abortion.

Is this what they call "Burying a story"?

Thanks....

HAPPY BUNNY LOSES SPLEEN

This entire thread, 1 - 36 is a delight. Far too many points of engagement, for a lazy piece-of-turf like me to pick out. Even the usual swipes were muted!

I would recommend Ed's link 'Parties' (see post #34) as it chimes with my: SPOIL PARTY GAMES.

That Obama thinks HE'S historic! Wrong! The future starts HERE.

Hurrah!

kashibeyaz (#35)

"If someone is far away, eg in the US, but appearing on screen in - studio, the Killie background kicks in and she shouts - because the person is far away and might not hear her."

Ah ha - an astute observation and a credible explanation of the behaviour.

Erratum: (#9) "about 98 million is from NI" should of course have been "about 98 BILLION is from NI".