Ö÷²¥´óÐã

"Was MI5 complicit in the torture of a Guantanamo bay detainee? Tonight, at the invitation of the attorney general, an investigation into these claims has been launched."

But surely some working for the security services deceive for living, and that's the least of their ('legal') sins? How are the civilian police expected to make any headway on this one when they can't even make any progress on SCO cases or Cash For Honours etc?

This is surely taking the public for fools?

From the masthead : 'ADMIN USE ONLY'

Ne'er a truer word.

we had posts on the old great debate board years ago about sis listening to torture done by others so they could get the 'benefit' but still claim they do not torture. its institutional. why have people gone all vestal about it now? it's never been a secret.

this agent they have dragged up is just a fall guy.

G brown does not toleRate Torture?
I think he should rexamane that statement
or his head.

12 long years of nulabour = Torture, not just in this country, He even allows it 2 B imported into the country.

oh dear putting ones foot n mouth into the brown stuff is an understatement.

tings can only get better

The Daniel Hannan speech is now the most watched, most discussed You Tube clip IN THE WORLD. The story is rapidly becoming why the Ö÷²¥´óÐã continues to pretend it doesn't exist - which of course leads to all sorts of speculation.
Is it because you have very poor instincts for what is news and were unable to recognise its value and significance?
Is it because you chose to misrepresent the reputation of the Prime Minister and applied self-censorship in the hope that no-one would find out?
Or have you become like those kidnap victims who sometimes appear on film woodenly reading out words written by their captors?

If its the latter, please ask your captors to give us something a bit more broadsheet than rape, murder, child abuse, sex education and republicanism.

1. police targets. this is part of the failed govt agenda to make 'the markets the best arbiter'. thye have used this idea in eveything they have done from pfi to financial regulation to energy prices and it fails everywhere. why do they use it. Tony is the worst PM we have ever had. Unwinnable wars and a failed 'market is best' mindset is their legacy.

2. we also need a need a new national oath that is about defending the rights of all the people not just one the privileges of one family. And a new national anthem that does really have something relating to the nation and not just some role gaming monarchy sing song.

nortongriffiths #5

The Daniel Hannan speech is now the most watched, most discussed You Tube clip IN THE WORLD.

Not surprising, It's certainly the best three and a half minutes I've had for a long time. he did very well in C4 news last evening too.

Yes, very odd that NN is turning a blind eye.

#1 Jaded_jean

I think you will find that people don't want somebody working for MI5 who likes Hitler, race "realism" and his methods nor would they want them to be influenced by such refuted and evil ideas.

It would also be interesting for them to explain your argument about Jews to the Israeli intelligence services. Stalin kicked out a lot of Jews in the 30's and therefore there had to be a damned good reason!

As Paxo sometimes says "Yes ....."

Why won't people ever take your advice?

Its so tough.


#7 NewFazer
Your comment has not been moderated yet but I guess it will be more of the race "realist" rubbish huh!

I am looking forward to the Obama strategy on Afghanistan but doubt that it will be a magic solution.

Is it possible to separate Pakistan and Afghanistan in this conflict?

Perhaps the intention is to hold in Afghanistan denying al Qaeda camps whilst they "win" in Pakistan.

But with the shenanigans over Chaudry and probable overall doubts over the ISI (Bhutto assassination questions; Lashka e Taiba links etc) and sensitivity about chasing the Taliban into tribal areas its difficult to see how they come up with a simple solution.

#5 nortongriffiths

"If its the latter, please ask your captors to give us something a bit more broadsheet than rape, murder, child abuse, sex education and republicanism."

You don't think those issues are broadsheet?

By the way one aspect that was not covered last night I felt on "MI5 complicit in the torture of a Guantanamo bay detainee" was did it not dawn on MI5 that after seven years of torture they had presumably zip?

I think with all of the US water boarding cases the intelligence gathered was on reflection rubbish.

Its not just the legal and democratic issues.

How were these intelligence officials not recognising and adapting their methods - and pressing the other states to recognise that it was not practically required to torture?

I recognise that some inmates were guilty and have left Guantanomo and gone off to Afghanistan on release - but the issue I am focused on is the effectiveness of the intelligence services.

But even with them did the torture get intelligence or did it reinforce their beliefs?

#7 Newfazer

"Yes, very odd that NN is turning a blind eye."

This from the people who have "mountains of evidence" that the Holocaust did not happen.

I don't recall any trial in seventy years of a Nazi being stopped due to this "mountain of evidence".

Is your race "realist" eye prejudiced?

Could this be!

#7 newfazer

Meanwhile I dare say the BNP, who hold similar views to you, are plotting their next big conference in that field in Derbyshire.

Where men are men and sheep are frightened.

Very Nuremburg rally!

A LESSON IN MACHIAN EMPIRICISM

tehgangofone (#8) "Stalin kicked out a lot of Jews in the 30's and therefore there had to be a damned good reason!"

Leave the psychological (spin) verbs out and lets look at .

The trick hee is to forget about post-hoc interpretations and just look instead at the pattern of physical events. Here, migrations. The first thing to note is a) the physical movements. The next is b) the very high frequency over many centuries. Last of all, one may or may not argue about c) the reasons etc.

My intereest lies in the description of behaviour and identification of patterns, not peoples' 'reasons'.

You can make what you will of that.

Go1 #8

Your comment has not been moderated yet but I guess it will be more of the race "realist" rubbish huh!

Wrong again sunshine!

And you seem to be confused over the difference between 'broadsheet' and 'red top' - amongst so many other things.

Satirical:

NEWSFLASH: NHS HOSPITALS MANAGEMENT ACCUSED OF ANTI-MRSAISM

It has come to the attention of ALF that throughout Britain, plans are afoot across the NHS to completely exterminate (note, this is not the same as deport, as no effort has been made, in writing, to warn, in their own language, or resettle, said bacteria (according to very reliable sources) the innocent, peace-loving, bacteria, MRSA who allegedly like living in hospitals where the food is good. This is clearly an instance of discrimination, i.e. anti-MRSAism, and is further evidence, ALF points out, of the fascist/nazi evil nature of the oppressive state!

Go1 #12

This from the people who have "mountains of evidence" that the Holocaust did not happen.

I've lost count of how many times I have asked you to provide evidence that it DID happen. You never answer so I can only suppose you have no proof.

I'll try once more. Please provide a sensible response. The commemorative plaque at Auschwitz was replaced some time ago by one with a radically reduced number for those who died there. Why wasn't the oft quoted total of 6 million also reduced by the same amount?

I have never claimed a mountain of evidence against the holocaust, I simply say I can find very little for it. It seems neither can you or you would present it.

Holocaust Denial/InDenial/??

I have more than a Reasonable Reason 2 believe it Happened.

I have more than a Reasonable Reason 2 believe My late great Auntie J was the 1st at the end Woman to enter Belson.
She was a Captain in the Q.R.A.N.C. (or similar the memory slips)

She never Married

I do wonder Why

but not for long

#17 Newfazer

"I have never claimed a mountain of evidence against the holocaust"

Untrue on many points.

I must cut and paste some of your responses but in any event if you find that there was little to suggest it did happen then surely those that were tried need a retrial etc? My point is that if there was no Holocaust then all of those trials and all of the evidence was wrong. So why aren't you out there pointing out the miscarriage of justice? That is my evidence - the trials, the testimony of the victims, the testimony of those that found them, the documents and so on. I am distantly related to both of the latter parties and the idea that the British Army persuaded soldiers to persist in lies long after the war was over is ludicrous.

As for the reductions in totals one point is that three million or six million its a holocaust. The second point is that war criminals tend not to actually point out there was another couple of hundred thousand here and fifty thousand there. Nobody will ever know the exact totals for sure.

But you race "realists" can come up with logic that says Stalin ejected Trotskyites and anarchists who were and therefore all Jews are Trotskyites and anarchists? So there is little point trying to persuade you on grounds of logic and fact.

But I rest easy knowing that the majority of the UK knows that the Holocaust did happen and that whilst people see your true nature there is no chance of your ilk getting a sniff of power.

Darling said:

'banks need to show they have learned from their mistakes to "rebuild public trust".'

He seems to have skipped the idea that the public needs to know that risk taking entrepreneurs can succeed without playing Russian Roulette with the nations finances.

Go1

Your posts 19 & 20 not yet moderated but this holocaust thing is way off thread. Why do you insist on banging on about it all the time whatever the topic? Why not stick to the matters in hand?

#15 Newfazer

Rape, murder, child abuse, sex education and republicanism are perfectly worthy topics for discussion.

For neutrals these far right race "realists" like to trumpet their own intellectual prowess and then come up with logic like Stalin ejecting anarchists and Trotskyites in the thirties proves something with regard to their attitude to Jews.

If that does not ring alarm bells in your head nothing will do.

You are just an open minded sort of happy go lucky person who does not deny or affirm the Holocaust.

What was your view on Hitler again?

thegangofone (#19)

"...if you find that there was little to suggest it did happen then surely those that were tried need a retrial etc? My point is that if there was no Holocaust then all of those trials and all of the evidence was wrong. So why aren't you out there pointing out the miscarriage of justice?"

How about because most informed people now accept that legally the IMT and other trials were primarily political, expedient.

The normal rules of due process were specifically waved. See the Yale AVALON site. This has has been explained before clearly to no avail. Tehran and the other conferences between Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt (and later Truman) led to these trials instead of mass summary executions initailly demanded by Stalin. These had nothing to do with any Holocaust.

Much of the trial material was put together specifically to induce feelings of guilt in the German population in aid of the denazification process, as national Socialism (state planning etc) was a) anathema to Western allies' Liberal-Democracy/capitalism and b) a good way for the USSR to drive West Germany and maybe more into their arms via the Morgenthau/Dexter-White Plan.

There was/is more to all this than you have grasped. You need to do some research. Few talked about 'The Holocaust' the way they do today until AFTER Israel was created in 1948 and especially after the wars with the Arabs began.

More recently it's been used as a way of keeping Liberal-Democracies' Neo-Liberal free-market financial service regulators (i.e the state), at bay, as well as serving as a cover for what Israel/USA gets up to in the Middle East.

Capice?

MANUFACTURED NEWS

Addendum (#23) The issue isn't really how bad Germany's treatment of Jews was. What's critically important is how this issue has been fabricated/distorted/exaggerated/abused as propaganda for political/financial gain.

Much of the criticism of 'the holocaust' is precisely because those who deploy it, do so in ways which are clearly characteristic of classic propaganda/psychological warfare (these days PR) techniques.

It's the socio-political/economic ends to which this has been put which drives so much of the dissent.

We are now suffering the blow-back.

Assuming that this 'Global Credit Crunch' is not yet another dose of fear/terror manufactured by the same sort of PR people who brought you more recent apocalyptic disasters like The Cold War, Bird-Flu, Global-Warming and 'The War on Terror'...

Go1 #19

As for the reductions in totals one point is that three million or six million its a holocaust.

There's the problem. The difference between three million and six million is the difference between the truth and a lie. It's what makes me so doubtful of the whole holocaust 'history'.

Already there are laws in Germany and Austria proscribing the questioning of these numbers. And some people would like to see the same laws Europe wide. Laws to prevent people questioning a lie. That chills my blood. It's as bad as anything Hitler did. And you, Go1, say you abhor totalitarianism! Look around you to see what is really happening. You've been duped.

My apologies to other readers, I know this is off topic but I could not let that go unanswered.

APOLOGY ACCEPTED (:o) (#25)

I am not so sure you are off topic NF - the one that matters, that is.

The Havellian Lie that we now live within, worldwide, is complex and multi-layered; so much so, that reality seems less real than fiction, for many, and I also, can have no certainty of where that boundary lies in many situations. I CAN, however, have a strong suspicion that it doesn't lie where 'it is supposed to'.

This is an absorbing philosophical area, but how many citizens are applying philosophical thought in their daily lives?

All we can do is 'keep banging the rocks together' . . .

Think about where the PR industry came from (Bernays). Think about who he was related to. Then, appreciating that the word 'corporation' is essentially just another word for organisation or group, or even extended family, read and think about Axis II, Cluster B of DSM-IV bearing in mind the phenomenal history of 'persecution' of highly verbal people who never think they are doing anything wrong because they are glib, lack empathy, grandiose, have a sense of entitlement, believe themselves special etc.

Chilling if true. Could it just be a matter of group higher prevalence rate due to endogamy/in-breeding? Might the hyperemotionality and extreme anti-racism merely be psychiatric symptoms i.e projections/delusions? Is it inconceivable that the prima facie history of 'persecution' really documents (by whom?) a history of other groups in fact trying to protect themselves from a group wherein there was a high prevalence of ruthless, Axis II, Cluster B, predators?

#23; "most informed people;" i.e. yourself and similarly minded folks; how arrogantly glib of you!

#24;"much of the criticism of "the holocaust" is precisely because those who deploy it, do so in ways which are clearly characteristic of classic propaganda/psychological warfare(these days PR) techniques."

Sounds like you've condemned yourself out of your own mouth, Genie. That is, of course, by telescoping "the criticism of the holocaust" to "it" in the phrase, "those who deploy it".

This laxity of grammer (sic) and the rise in typos, coupled with the continual use of words such as "precisely" and "clearly" to support the apparent "universality" of your strange views, leads one to think that there's more than one marsupial loose in your north pasture.

I was mulling over Axis II, Cluster B of DSM - IV and the Gene Genie's indubitably scientific approach.

And then I read in #27; "a high prevalence of ruthless, Axis II, Cluster B, predators".

Is it time for The Gene Genie to reveal its true identity?

Is it a; the Alien? b; the Blade Runner? c; Darth Vader? - or d; all of these at different times?

Answers on a Quinean Lysenkoist postcard to ; Who Wants to be a Fascist Ubermensch? Eugenikstrasse, Lalaland.

I'M SORRY - I 'AVE A COLD.

Isn't 'anger' on another thread? (:o)

It's all lost on me, I don't know my Axis of Evil from my Iron Curtain. Does it still include Fraggle Island?

ON PLAYING THE BALL, NOT THE PERSON

kashibeyaz (#29) "I was mulling over Axis II, Cluster B of DSM - IV"

But did you learn anything? It would appear not. DSM-IV is a behavour classification system.

You apear to have a need to know the person/people reporting, producing or referencing evidence rather than the evidence itself. This strongly suggests that you are unable/untrained/unwilling to report and analyse matters objectively. Why not just follow links to reported work?

It would appear from many of your posts here that such behaviour is as alien to you as it is to thegangofone.

kashibeyaz (#29) "Who Wants to be a Fascist Ubermensch?"

You might be better off asking that question in Israel, and then generalising.

Perhaps another question you should really ask is: 'who wants more to be consumers in global Liberal-Democratic underclasses?'

Is it conceivable to you that the reason you may miss much is because you fail to ask critical questions through failing to examine statistical deviations from the expected?