Ö÷²¥´óÐã

Given Geithner was over here and seemed to be well aware of Osbornes plans I am surprised by Obama's remarks.

It could be that it is the German economy so crucial to the Euro that is the issue in the sovereign debt crisis.

I hope that is all clarified in the piece.

The other thing that springs to mind was I would think the public were kind of hoping the G20 were all in pretty active communication and that generally they were all trying to chart a commonly agreed course.

Yet another thing that is not clear is that whilst people announce cuts it takes a while for things to filter through and impact on real people.

The assumption has been that we are starting to grow and therefore the situation could improve more quickly than we expect - or policy would have to change if factors like the sovereign debt crisis have a more severe impact than projected.

My interpretation of stagflation fears is that it all depends on how stable the banks remain and that they will be forced to lend to small and medium sized companies and that should help on the jobs front.

Presumably if the banks don't lend then we could go belly up again and the knives get honed to legendary sharpness to make sure the banks never ever get us into this mess again and regulation is on the safe side rather than on the side of roulette risks.

How sweet. Mr Obama is deeply worried about the Global Economy.

Which Globe would that be he's looking at?

Ö÷²¥´óÐãlessness is potentially a growing issue not helped by The US led and fed Sub Prime selling, our dear own recent engorgement on buy to let and property development schemes. Nor is it helped by too high expectations and deliberate over extensions of personal budgets with absolutely no fall back percentage.

What is needed is some sort of ceiling on house prices. Best led from the outside by punters simply REFUSING to pay silly money - would only take a few months if as many as possible stuck to their limits.

Ban ALL property development programmes on TV - to start with.

The a scheme to provide (new builds not always required) truly affordable supported (facilities and community mix) units as first homes/last homes.

"The poorest have been hit hardest and homelessness is expected to increase as a result of the housing benefit plans. How comfortable are the Liberal Democrats with this?"

They will gather in the dark around a fire and burn their manifesto whilst they cheer at the misery of the poor?

Actually no they won't as they have stayed at this time fairly consistently to their views whilst recognising that the Tories have more seats - and a bigger share of the popular vote.

There is no indication whatever that there is any discontent at this time internally or externally because all are agreed there are very few options and the Lib Dems are not the only party in government.

They said from the start that they knew it was going to be hard and very painful.

It was not a situation of their making but Labour's - though tLabour are not wholly and singularly responsible their gung ho attitude to the financial sector and light touch regulation left us far more exposed than our neighbours and with far more restructuring to do.

Do you blame the policies of the people who created the debt crisis, the individuals who were inevitably sucked along in the tide of the economic momentum or the people who have to put things right?

The fate of those who end up on the street is a stark reminder of the responsibilities of those who make economic policy.

So when Ed Balls says the coalition is going to hurt the poor and create more homelessness its hardly the full picture.

It was pretty obvious to us all from day one that that was going to happen regardless - and none of the parties really scaled the problem up even though the public were largely already resigned to their fate - but people are not stupid.

All that said the allegations of ideological motivations by the Super-Thatcherite Tories will take on some meaning if the overall economic situation changes but instead of deft adjustments to policy we see a doctrinaire and inappropriate response.

My thought for the day is that I am so glad to see other people express their views even where I don't agree with them as that is what politics in a democratic society is all about.

I am even happier that to a large extent those that were promoting far right notions of race and National Socialism and so on have largely disappeared from this page.

That is not due to "emotional extremism" and unbridled hatred from me but because when they have to justify their views with facts they are found to be bankrupt in that department and slide off elsewhere.

When their "greatest mind" proposes that the Holocaust was "made up" to put people off statism and was done by people who were effectively statists it shows you how intellectually and emotionally incoherent they are and also probably how amoral.

The "mountains of evidence" against the Holocaust never show up in court in war crimes trials just as the BNP won't take their "science" to court with the EHRC over their continuing failure, still I believe, to comply with non-racial party membership law.

The country expresses its view in the general elections and the vast majority of people accept happily a multi-cultural society though there has been a widespread recognition of the need for much stronger control of immigration.

#32

Good word, Byte, give & take , take plus give!!!!

But not take, take, take -no happiness there, no fulfillment and soul in shreds

mim

Fiscal tightening can be most beneficial ... yes indeed ... it depends how a nation spends it's money.

If a nation spends most of its spare cash on imports ... then most of a nation's cash is exchanged by the local banks into foreign currency and leaves that country.

If the UK e.g. sucks in e.g. billions of imported light bulbs every year and foreign food produce ... (ring any bells yet?) and loses all of that money overseas instead of stimulating the home doedestic economy ... then any country can become worried ... looking overseas for solutions.

It's all about being radical and bold ... doing the right things ... at home ... in the doemstic economy ... before whinging about what is happening overseas.

Britian could be booming if we learn how to make (e.g 500) everyday items for home consumption (e.g. lightbulbs) rather than looking to import nearly everything from overseas. Yes ... there would be problems with GATT and WTO and EU and the rest ... and less choice in the shops ... but this is do or die for the UK ... our country is not so slowly dying ... sliding ... sinking ... our economy is unbalanced and dangerously unstable through years and years and long term mismanagement.

Obama's we're all in this together is partly true ... some more than others!

The other issue is that there are millions of green and other new jobs with an introspective UK domestic economy emergency manufacturing/ industrial and agricultural policy ... this would fit in well with other government initiatives on reining in the UK budget AND TRADE deficits.

We need action in the UK ... waiting for a global recovery is not going to bring the growth and tax revenues ... it has to be created in the private sector but with government intervention on a scale not seen previously ... anywhere in the world.

Don't be fooled by OBR GDP figures showing that the UK is coming out of recession next year ... some of that 2.6% growth is still QE ... and international trades in the City of London that show in GDP but benefit very few British homes and families.

Massive opportunities to achieve this industrial restructuring ... in the NE NW Midlands, Yorkshire etc with the opportunity to relieve congestion in the SE and achieve lower cost basing in the regions with valuable employment etc. ... its called 'planning'.

I hope the Coalition does better on this than Labour!

By the way - the IFS statement about the budget being regressive is nonsense unless the IFS states what background assumptions it has made to further government policies.

e.g. if the government pursued a new indsutrial policy based on (6) above ... and lower paid workers get a job and come off the dole que ... then ... may be progressive or something else.

The IFS are a waste of space distraction ... an impediment to discussing action!

ACTION! FULL EMPLOYMENT! MAKE SOME JOBS! SEND THE JUNK BACK TO CHINA! WE CAN MAKE OUR OWN!

WHEN all those smug apparatchiks stand in front of the camera to proclaim that "it wasn't our fault, it was all the previous Govts fault", its VERY worth bearing in mind that THEY WERE THE OPPOSITION during this time. How many times did we hear the Tories bleat about *increasing* regulations upon the City and Financial Services, how many times did they come onto TV and warn of the disastrous consequences of nuLabour continuing with the Tory policy of a Housing bubble? Of home-debt?

NEVER!!

yet NOW they are attempting to claim that it "was all Labour's fault". They make me **SICK**.

tories, nuLabour, cleggonauts - there is not the space to put a rizla between them.

an 'opposition' that completely agrees with Govt policies whilst in opposition, can hardly turn around and claim saintliness when those policies go wrong later.

--of course, expecting honesty from Politicians is like expecting... to be honest, i can't think of any comparisons ludicrous enough to do it justice. I tried.


"The poorest have been hit hardest and homelessness is expected to increase as a result of the housing benefit plans. How comfortable are the Liberal Democrats with this?"

do they even really care? It has become obvious that the cleggonauts have no REAL depth of character or motive - given the sniff of power they have behaved just like the other 2 big parties. The Lib-Dems stand revealed as just as heartless, just as ready to lie to the camera, just as ready to be Civil Service Press hacks, just as purely immoral and uncaring as those who are gleefully dismantling the Welfare State.


---its all "the Markets", you see. Their "hands are tied". But in "the fullness of time" we will undoubtedly see the genius behind the obvious heartless economic and social insanity.

or, we won't. But it will be too late by then.


nice to see that 'real choice' in the Election, isn't it? Why did they even bother to hold an election when all the main parties are absolutely identical?

Brightyangthing

This is all very sinister while being utterly idiotic though GOOD & NORMAL, i.e, acceptance of life's complexities, should take the upper hand and win the day. A tool that one uses to cut fabric with might be in order.

My symptoms are now being accompanied by louder and louder noises. If yiou put your ears near my belly I guarantee you could hear them easily.

Otherwise it continues to go fantastically well, well almost with the final touch still awaited.

mim

6 ..its called 'planning'...

no no no. for the tories that is 'big government'. Market fundamentalists believe foreign multinationals backed by foreign states know what is best for the uk. Then the scouts/vicar/WI can plug the gaps.

the uk has no society building science.

jaunty: re "Society Building science", UKs lack thereof.

actually, there IS such a science - it is called doing the opposite of what Imperials want done.

for instance, take Iraq. When 'we' invaded, had we immediately established local cooperatives for production, basic necessities, repair, infrastructure etc, alongside promoting local democracy, if we had pumped money into those cooperatives (instead of corrupt Western companies that took 20 BILLION DOLLARS from Iraq, and largely pocketed it with no improvements for the Iraqis seen), we would have seen Iraqi living standards rocket - and almost guaranteed, no 'insurrection', beyond the very few Baathists hiding out.

instead, the occupation channelled the money into western companies, prevented local democracy, and even went to so far as to deliberately plant bombs (even faked suicide bombers!) to stir up factionalism between Iraqis, ultimately ending in the on-going civil war.

to rape and pillage a Land, take control of the Judiciary and the Treasury, transfer ownership of all assets to your own country (or companies), stir up ethnic/inter-regional conflict, and support blatantly corrupt vichy administrations. Sit back and watch whilst the Nation tears itself apart - whilst you still rake in the $Bns from controlling the basics, such as oil/mineral wealth/electricity/water etc.

this IS a Science, and one used many times in the building of Empires - and the eventual building of fine palatial Mansions for the Imperialists whilst the target Nations bleeds dry.


btw, what DO you think is happening to the UK right now?


the opposite method is required to build-up a Society - and believe me, the more canny 3rd World members are fully aware of this, as are our own all-too-canny-but-treacherous Elites. Why do you think the Big 3£ stole all their 'progressive ideas' from others in the laughable 'debates', but have done sweet jack S to actually implement them once they had deceived the British Public into voting them into power?

at least in part because 'they' don't believe we, the British Public, can do ANYTHING about them now they are in power - we bought the lies, and now we will pay the price. Not even mass insurrection will shift this bunch... this is what the Tories at the beginning of the 20th century were willing to do to strikers:

"Troops were deployed to working-class areas to face down trouble, while Royal Navy battleships and destroyers were despatched to the Clyde, the Tyne and the Mersey. The state gave troops the freedom to use any force they deemed necessary to maintain law and order."




believe you me, there is very definitely an understood way to build a Society - which is not only why it so very rarely happens, but also why Iraqis and Afghans KNEW they they were being occupied not for their own benefit, not for an improvement in their own lives, but a straightforward Imperialist venture, that so far has netted a few Americans $Bns, if not 10s or even 100s of $Bns. Whilst costing MILLIONS of innocent lives.

but what are a few lives, or the regression of a Nation like the UK back to feudal pre-industrialism, compared to making rich people richer??

As usual the " left wing " has the wrong end of the stick on housing benefit, uncontrolled housing benefit levels have in fact stoked the property price boom over the past 20 years. House prices should fall as a result of the cap on housing benefit, which has become a virtual welfare state for the buy to let property speculation industry. Market rent's should fall in a true market thus allowing those lower income workers who can't claim housing benefit a potential reduction in their cost of living.

There is perhaps a case though where capped housing benefit will be used by the Corporate Nazi aspect of " the market " as an excuse for the corporate ethnic cleansing of lower income people from rural or " affluent " areas of larger towns. It would appear that the new corporate landlords can revert to a virtual " tied cottage " system for menial workers in rural areas. Some of the old " lords of the manor " were once lenient with rents, but the latest batch of " agents " put up the rent for no good reason, stating to tenants that " if they can't afford it the council will pay the difference ".

Also how are the alleged poorest in society going to be clobbered by the VAT increase unless they are apprentice ten bob fat cats signed up to all the latest gadget technology, Sky TV subscriptions and the like. However, since the chancellor did not make a corresponding cut in fuel duty it lays said budget open to the charge that it hits hard working entry level car owning families on low incomes the most. Similarly the corporate bus companies will use the VAT rise as an excuse to raise their fares, so tough luck if you are in a minimum wage job.

Increasing the retirement age is a kick in the teeth for moderate to heavy manual workers, especially when coupled with stricter tests for disability benefits. It would appear that " Ö÷²¥´óÐã types " don't really care about the workers who do all the really essential jobs in our economy. Take Jon Snow on Channel 4 News, the best he could do was invite a couple of well paid academics to agree with telephone number salary him. Anyway one of the said academics came from an organisation which earns its keep selling top price luxury cruises and car insurance for the really elderly. I do hope Newsnight presents a more intelligent debate on the budget and its ramifications tonight.

10. At 5:48pm on 24 Jun 2010, jauntycyclist wrote:

6 ..its called 'planning'...

no no no. for the tories that is 'big government'. Market fundamentalists believe foreign multinationals backed by foreign states know what is best for the uk. Then the scouts/vicar/WI can plug the gaps.

the uk has no society building science.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thank you ... you obviously grasped the issue even if you take a different view. You're quite right: 'the uk has no society building science' ... and that is the problem ... we have no big picture plan at all ... no real direction ... no collective vision and policy intelligence as demonstrated by the previous Labour government

'Planning' is a bit vague ... but is a generic term for what has never happened:

1) population planning i.e. distributing condoms instead of welfare cheques

2) linking housing/immigration/regional policy because e.g. 5 million immigrants during the last 13 years and now 5 million on the local authority housing lists... is that a coincidence?

3) planning transport, employment, town and country planning regional tax policy to encourage e.g new indsutry in the NE region.

4) other e.g. the UK NHS is planned to service 62 million persons ... 'newcomers' should pay a hefty co-payment for using it ie cannot be free to all comers at the point of service ... no other country in the world provides a completely free service and stays solvent ... it is madness

5) et al

There has to be proper resource planning and joined up thinking at the centre of government ... otherwise you're right we get a Business Minster cherry picking selected business entreprises and their non dom beneficiaries to receive special loans so that their global supply chains can exploit more capital from the UK.

Surely the last government showed the lack of proper planning and comminication across and between government departments e.g the Ö÷²¥´óÐã Office and Justice Dept fiasco and the housing and town and country planning fisaco re RPG3 policy.

If the Coalition government does not get a handle on this:

- unemployment will not come down and may in fact increase
- more economically inactive
- will not be any REAL 'growth' of any description

The terminology is confusing re 'planning' ... and has been used by the successive governments to hide the lack of long term and strategic government planning in crucial areas such as long term strategic industrial policy with e.g. and aggressive stance on import tariffs for bulk imports that kill British jobs keep millions on the dole.

The media coverage of tgovernment finances has been polarised on cuts when issues like another trillion plus quid is needed for replacement of UK infrastructure.

Only proper strategic planning can enable Britain to at least start thinking about it ... e.g. more investment in the NE region rather than the SE ... because the NE needs it more and the SE region is congested.

The really clever stuff is to build a regional policy into and tax and spend decisions that achieve fiscal targets but help meet other targets by directing the building of new houses AND factories where they are needed most e.g high unemployment locations and giving priority to new affiordable homes rather than private houses when there are 800,000 empty houses in the UK.

Joined up thinking can save money when it is linked to regional tax and spend decisions - regional qaungos are not needed ... just strategic regional resource planning. This might mean that although Heathrow airport 3rd runway has been cancelled ... an expansion of an airport in the East Midlands /Teeside with a high speed transport link to urban centres might be better value in regional startegic resource planning terms and still meet tax and savings/spending criteria.

Its time the UK government got its act together ... probably for the first time ever ... I'm not a cynic ... the Coalition has a enough of the right callibre to do this ... but they need to get started...

With spending and tax and cuts - Each stone has to kill several birds (vultures will do nicely)

--off-topic: many people in Brighton would benefit from reading Aldous Huxley's 'Devils of Loudon'.

#12: very well said, brossen.

Just further on the Corporate Ethnic Cleansing angle on the budget, it would appear that the whole focus for the Liberal Democrats is to economically cleanse all the low income almost always Tory voting " indigenous " people and replace them with eco-fascist leaning Lib-Dem voters. It would appear that said aim has already been achieved in Westmoreland & Lonsdale, the big landowners don't care about any of the local people. Just so long as they can easily get permission for lucrative Wind Farms and continue to rake in massive rents for fairly modest ex farming family dwellings.

In no way am I linking to the corporate ethnic cleansing angle to Tim Farron, in fact he has " mostly unreported " been fighting for the rights of the few indigenous South Lakeland population remaining. Perhaps that's why he had scant support in the Lib-Dem deputy-leadership election recently, even though he could have made a useful contribution to the coalition debate.

NN
"The G20 meets this weekend with President Obama warning that Europe's attempts to save its way out of the debt crisis could put the global recovery at risk."
Saving may cause problems in the recovery..oh dear. Its almost counter intuitive is that. Nope, we must keep on spending so says Obama. Well Obama was no doubt instructed from George Soros to trot that one out. We can't be putting the brakes on the Soros and Goldman Sachs agenda. "We would like to be more prudent with our spending"...no no NO ! spend spend SPEND, Debt is good!"
Lets have a quick look at Obamas financial contributors for the 2008 presidential election campaign: Goldman Sachs, George Soros and here's a surprise.. BP AKA British Petroleum. Funny bedfellows wouldn't you say. Whose pulling those strings? why its Emanuel, Soros and Co.


Gango. I hope you wasn't late getting your weekly student rag editorial in, considering how busy you are posting on here. I mean, what is wrong with sharing your every-thought-on-everything. Maybe its just vanity...we can all be guilty of that, some more than others though, eh!

I was chatting to David Lynch the other day. He tells me he's working on a new project. Its about a kid who falls of his skateboard, the grazing of his knee and the ensuing torment of this skateboarding students life. Its a dark movie, very abstract and a good 3hrs long. David mentioned that he's having difficulty choosing an opening title sound track. I suggested Bowie's 'I am deranged'. He said that would've been the perfect opener tune but its already been used in a previous movie of his.
Pity that.

Forgot to mention: (and I'm keeping it clean)
Kirsty looked like a lollipop. I'd like to say more but I'd only have the mods prodding me with their big sticks..again.

#14

relentlessly evil dreaming of holiday??

I've had a brilliant morning so far, Brightyangthing, how about you? I'm on my way now to meet a lovely couple from one of the Commonwealth countries and who knows who else I might meet throughout the day. No doubt several sws but not only.

It's so lovely in London on a sunny summer's day!!!!

mim

i don't want a 'fairer' britain. I want a good/excellence britain. Fairness is marxist claptrap that requires human sacrifice and locks everything into the lowest common denominator. Fairness, a pig philosophy [due to lack of discrimination for the good] results in a pig society.

people who say they want more 'fairness' are really saying they want more pig society.

Poverty

As long as poverty is measured as a percentage of the average wage it can never 'end'. People with a tv are not poor. There is a poverty industry who need to talk it up.

Control Orders

If they are only being used against muslims and not the 1600 organised crime gangs, a criminal insurgency, then its merely muslim bashing. How many people a year do organised crime gangs kill? How many more are 'terrorised' into paying protection etc?

the criminal insurgency wish to subvert the State no less than a political one.

the story behind control orders is that is it a key part of the neocon propaganda war upon the British people.

#21: 'Fairness' is a basic concept for a functioning home-life/Society. 'Fairness' means equality of opportunity - intelligent kids from poorer backgrounds should have the possibility of achievement just like kids from wealthier backgrounds. What kind of philosophy wastes the majority of the national talent pool PURELY on the basis of inherited privilege/wealth?

'Fairness' can also be used to justify wrong thinking as well, or course - but that kind of 'fairness' can usually be deconstructed to show its flaws.

and, btw - the Marxist societies are anything BUT fair, so its very hard to see the link between Marxism and 'Fairness'. In fact, even animals grasp the notion of 'Fairness', this has been shown in scientific studies. 'Fairness' is an innate ability, 'elders' may punish and fulminate against them, but every kid in every Society is fully aware of what 'Fairness' is and isn't. Albeit usually with more than a dash of self-interest added.

remove exploitation as much as possible from the economy, improve State education to the best in the world (which wouldn't need much more investment - just teachers being trained in Democratic Pedagogy. See "Summerhill School, A S Neill"), use the power of the Internet to improve Citizen participation, make Govt fully transparent and accountable.

then sit back and watch REAL 'Fairness' come to the front. And, btw, just to repeat - those measures were utterly anathema to the Bolsheviks. Marxism, Liberal Behaviourism, and all the other High Modernist corruptions are about as 'Fair' as the Catholic Church.


on poverty - of COURSE poverty is measured against the social/economic norms!!!

utterly ridiculous, are we to think that those on social benefits should have the living standards of the poorest 3rd world citizens? How can UK citizens find work without having Internet access? How can they get through interviews without decent clothing? How can their children study, learn and improve to their own situation if they are starving?

the DELIBERATE house price inflation/bubble that was created has led to house prices/rents absorbing over HALF of many people's incomes! Housing should not cost more than 25-30% of a person's income, and the housing bill could be reduced dramaticaly.

put that into perspective: Thatcher destroyed social housing, housing owned by the local council for renting out to those in need. All that stock was sold to private ownership. Then the Housing Bubble was started by deliberate policy. Her backers, of course, included many grossly wealthy Landowners. By this raising of the costs of housing, not only did it fuel the credit boom, not only has it bankrupted Govt paying private landlords, but it has ALSO (by coincidence) made the Landowning class ridiculously wealthy.

now we are to see 'housing benefit' cut, with untold misery to come from that. WHY, let me repeat ***WHY*** has this Govt not instead placed a cap on how much LANDLORDS can charge??

it is hardly a shock, but once again the Tories are slamming the weakest, poorest and most helpless, instead of clipping the wings of those who profit from the misery, and have £millions in the banks.

--i can only wonder how many people, sickened by the corruption of the nuLabour Govt and voted Tory, are now realising that what an OVERTLY Tory Govt gets up to is vastly worse. It was often said that nuLabour's ethos was "Toryism with a human face" - well now we are seeing naked Toryism.

if i were you, i'd go into a bank and borrow £20M, from that point on you will find this Govt aiding you in every way possible. If you are poor however, and about to be made homeless, just don't try to keep your cardboard box in a public place - you will be 'moved along' pretty sharpish.

this is Toryism. Enjoy.


on control orders, Jaunty - spot on. This whole 'War on Terror' was just an exercise in social control, and was even on many levels designed to *inspire* terror attacks upon the UK!! MI5, the whole 'terror apparatus' in the UK should be placed under control orders - or else imprisoned without trail for 45 days without seeing a lawyer, or hearing the charges against them. Perhaps even sent to Pakistan for torture, to find out the 'truth' of their activities? I wonder how many 'water-boards' it would take for that weasel lawyer last night to admit that the whole 'Terror Legislation' was nothing but a way to remove ancient rights from normal citizens, and to prepare the way for wholesale clamping down on political activism and Peace Protesters?

oh, but i forget - 'water-boarding' is NOT torture, it is just "enhanced interrogation". I look forward to that technique to be used in Parliamentary Committees upon Govt officials who continue to back this globally destructive 'War on Terror'.

22

..but that kind of 'fairness' can usually be deconstructed to show its flaws.


the reality is people are refused medicines and die because they can't be afforded to 'everyone' so wouldn't be 'fair' if some got them. That is the 'fairness' in action. it requires human sacrifice. That is why its not good.

A thief can rob everyone equally and in that way be fair, multicultural, without discrimination and all the other pc words but that does not mean it would be good. That is why the good is greater than fairness as an idea.

currently we have fairness without good. But you cannot be good without being fair.

people talk about 'climate fairness' which means a tax on us to give to china. its pure marxism.

The marxist say we are a rich country which is why we should be taxed to fund 'fairness'. when you look at the apparent wealth around you just remember most of it is an illusion funded by debt. the uk has the highest personal debt. The uk state is bankrupt. The uk has no money and a lot of unnecessary things can be cut out. The world will not end.


the reason people hate the good is because one must discriminate for it. Not everything is good. Which the marxists say is discrimination and thus an oppression. see how mad they are when they say the good is an oppression.


People who can afford sky are not poor. Tax money is for the poor and needy not the rich and greedy or the idle and sponging. Today there is no poverty in the uk. Anyone who thinks there is needs to travel the world a bit.

i said the measure of poverty is wrong. That is not the same as starving people. Someone who has food clothing and a place to sleep is not poor. We have 25% of the working population not working. what traps them into that when we have had 3 million migrants come and find work?

i remember talking to an old boy who lived through the war and he said to me once 'you see that field of rabbits over there, during the war you would not have seen one rabbit anywhere'. Today the fields are full of rabbits.

the poverty we have today is not material poverty, in a country that throws billions of pounds worth of food away a year, but that of philosophy.

the good is greater and higher idea than the ideology of fairness which results in a pig society.

#23: jaunty, good comments.

"23. At 8:58pm on 25 Jun 2010, jauntycyclist wrote

the reality is people are refused medicines and die because they can't be afforded to 'everyone' so wouldn't be 'fair' if some got them. That is the 'fairness' in action. it requires human sacrifice. That is why its not good."

i understand your viewpoint here, but there are other philosphies at work.

for instance, *if* the NHS were to allow 'subsidies' of expensive medicines, which is effectively what allowing people to purchase part-private medicine does, will mean the NHS becomes a two tier system, where those who can afford to pay extra get the necessary treatment, whilst the poor cannot. At current, ALL NHS patients get the same treatment, regardless of income or ability to "top up".

this is an incredibly important principle, and although yes, it prevents a small number of patients accessing NHS services, because the treatment they desire has not been approved by the NHS, or it is too expensive a drug for it to be widely available on prescriptions, in principle that is a core element that CANNOT be changed unless the NHS is to be redefined as NO LONGER a universal service.


"A thief can rob everyone equally and in that way be fair, multicultural, without discrimination and all the other pc words but that does not mean it would be good. That is why the good is greater than fairness as an idea."

haven't disagreed. i just think "Fair" is also a good idea.

"currently we have fairness without good. But you cannot be good without being fair."

yes.

"people talk about 'climate fairness' which means a tax on us to give to china. its pure marxism."

actually no, most of that money will go to American 'Carbon Marketeers", see brossen's latest links. The money that has been supposedly slated to go to China, under Copenhagen, was to invest in new sustainable energy. This is to try to prevent current and future demand on oil to be dramatically raised just as Peak Oil is passed. - China is a "nuclear state", and thus to be taken seriously in global negotiations. A cynic might even ask the question: "How else could the feudal-ruled Western Nations get China on board for any attack upon Persia?"

so how can that be anything to do with Marxists, especially European Marxists, who are still one of the core rejectionists of Man-made Climate Change?

"The marxist say we are a rich country which is why we should be taxed to fund 'fairness'. when you look at the apparent wealth around you just remember most of it is an illusion funded by debt. the uk has the highest personal debt. The uk state is bankrupt. The uk has no money and a lot of unnecessary things can be cut out. The world will not end."

i'm sorry, but travel to rural Africa or Asia, and you will quickly understand how *incredibly* wealthy we are as Societies compared to them. But yes, "things can be cut". Enormous pay-packets and bonuses would be a very good start, both here and there.

and imho, atm the best "fairness tax" re the 3rd World, is actually buying fairtrade goods, that will support cooperatives in the 3rd World, raising living standards there. Although i am worried about the amount of carbon we are polluting, this is largely because the oceans are DYING because of the overload of carbon. But we are VASTLY more wealthy as societies than the majority around the World, who do require our help if they are to leave the pre-Electrical Age. The majority of the "carbon Tax" you mention will actually go to Western Elite back-handers/fees, imho far better to invest that directly, either through FairTrade or properly directed Foreign Aid.


"the reason people hate the good is because one must discriminate for it. Not everything is good. Which the marxists say is discrimination and thus an oppression. see how mad they are when they say the good is an oppression."

yeah well, even Karl Marx rejected the Marxists of his day. But i feel you are arguing against a branch of "post-modernism" really, and thankfully that is not ALL of post-modernism, and the majority would agree with you that seeing *everything* as equally 'Good', whilst intellectually stimulating, has very little purchase In Real Life (IRL). But Intellectuals should not be just limited to what IRL meeds, as well. Some things just need taking with a 'pinch of salt'! ;)


"People who can afford sky are not poor. Tax money is for the poor and needy not the rich and greedy or the idle and sponging. Today there is no poverty in the uk. Anyone who thinks there is needs to travel the world a bit."

Adam Smith would have argued that access to 'common items', such as decent clothing, modern media etc, are essential parts of Social benefits, because without them the aspiring worker falls out-of-touch with surrounding society, and thus finds it harder to find work. As for poverty in the UK - i *HAVE* travelled abroad, and i had a hard job convincing my Malawian students (and a Pakistani music shopkeeper) that there could BE any poverty in the UK! But there assuredly is, and any travel through most inner city parts of London (and probably most UK cities) demonstrates that without need of words. Almost a third of UK Children grow up in poverty, and whilst that might not be 'Absolute Poverty', the effects on the children of living even in relative poverty are absolutely fundamental to their development. There is *very much* still "Poverty in the UK".

"i said the measure of poverty is wrong. That is not the same as starving people. Someone who has food clothing and a place to sleep is not poor. We have 25% of the working population not working. what traps them into that when we have had 3 million migrants come and find work?"

you live amongst equally poor people, you don't mind poverty. You see a mansion at the end of the village, where you pay 'rent' just to use the land your family has used for generations, and you pay 'taxes' to for purely their benefit - you might feel more aggrieved. How is 'poverty' defined?

and then you have "wages" - *who* "drives them down"? Immigrants usually travel for either the experience, or the higher wages. The "higher Wages" means that for them, the wages are far higher than they would receive at home, for the same work, minus the cost of housing - which migrant labourers are often happy to share, to an extent un-thought of by 'home' labour. The solution is to offer 'home' labourers income rates worth their while to do the work!

...that cuts into 'profit rates' of exploitative employers though...


"i remember talking to an old boy who lived through the war and he said to me once 'you see that field of rabbits over there, during the war you would not have seen one rabbit anywhere'. Today the fields are full of rabbits."

wow, you mean People aren't STARVING enough?!?

"the poverty we have today is not material poverty, in a country that throws billions of pounds worth of food away a year, but that of philosophy."

there are millions of UK Citizens who would appreciate some of that food!

"the good is greater and higher idea than the ideology of fairness which results in a pig society."

the Good is a fantastic goal - i happen to think 'Fairness' is a part of the Good, just as you said earlier.


i happen to think the two things go hand-in-hand.