Presbyterian Pulpit Wars
My interview on Sunday with the Presbyterian Moderator, Dr John Finlay, seems to have within the church over the ordination of women. Dr Finlay appeared on Sunday Sequence in order to respond to the controversy in Portadown, where two churches found themselves in a liturgical stand-off over Christmas. Since then, the issue has been covered on monday's editions of Good Morning Ulster and Talk Back.
The two congregations -- First Portadown at Edenderry and Armagh Road - have held a joint Christmas Day service for almost 60 years. But this past Christmas that traditional was abruptly ended because the new minister of First Portadown, the Revd Stafford Carson, refuses to share his pulpit with a woman minister, the Revd Christina Bradley.
In my interview with the Moderator, Dr Finlay confirmed that he voted against the ordination of women when the church debated the matter 35 years ago. Since then, he says, he has personally tried not to "frustrate the law of the church". In other words, he has been prepared to share services with women ministers even though he voted against their ordination. One could read that reply as a criticism of Stafford Carson. Is Mr Carson "frustrating the law of the church"? The Moderator wouldn't go that far when pressed -- he dodged the question and maintained that this is a very personal matter of conscience for those involved.
I suspect that there may be some discussion of the controversy at next June's General Assembly, though probably in a private session if at all. This isn't a matter of law for Presbyterians: the church's law is clear that women may be ordained and those men who disagree in conscience with that ordination are permitted to voice their disagreement. The issue is really about how a church can make space for different opinions on such as divisive issue -- and how individuals can express generosity and respect while honouring their own convictions.
So far, Stafford Carson and Christina Bradley have refused to be interviewed by the broadcast media. I have spoken with both of them about the controversy and I have the sense that a compromise is possible in this situation; that both parties can maintain personal integrity while making space for each other.
Comments
The Presbyterian Church in Ireland is laggin way behind other Presbyterian churches across the world. It's time they woke up and realised that the "biblical" arguments against the ordination of women just don't make sense anymore. They are consigned to the dustbin of history along with the arguments some used to defend slavery or discriminate against disabled people.
How very Christian of them. All I'm waiting for is for the other shoe to drop. With "the troubles" between Anglicans and Catholics fading into the past, there must be plenty of unemployed bomb making instructors who could help each side escalate the conflict to see which side god is really on. But if bombmaking turns out to have become a lost art in NI, I'm sure we can find a few "Islamists" in GITMO to send on loan to revive the trade and I'll bet women will prove just as clever at building and planting them as men are.
I am a Presbyterian but I am ashamed of the lack of leadership offered by Dr Finlay in this controversy.
Why did he bother going on the radio in the first place if he didn't want to answer the questions? I listened and was ambarrassed for the man and he was ask quite basic questions about this debate and he seemed not to have much of a clue.
I don't want to be offensive to the elected leader of my church but Dr Finlay needs to get some media training. Soe theological training wouldn't be amiss either. He was all over the place, not answering questions, and then seeming to contradict himself in the answers he did manage.
It's 2008. Can the leaders of my church please wake up to that fact? Your Puritanism is closing churches.
I am hanging on to membership of the Presbyterian church by my fingertips because of the church's closed mindedness.
Please wake up and see what you are doing.
I agree with David, but would add that "biblical" arguments for anything are a right royal waste of time.
I also very much agree with Kevin. Some presbyterians seemed to think William was very harsh in the interview. My Finlay was certainly uncomfortable but the reason for this was his inability to give straightforward and honest answers to some very basic questions that would have been lurking in the minds of most people following the debate.
G.Da
Has anyone noticed that those who have jumped to the support of Christina Bradley are none other than the ecumenists, liberals and those who don鈥檛 know what they are or what they stand for, but they are all to glad to take a stand against orthodox Presbyterianism, that is not surprising considering that Christina Bradley served time in an ecumenical PCI congregation in the North Belfast Presbytery who just happen to have a number of other women ministers in their pulpits in North Belfast and who just happen to be ecumenists also. Is it any wonder that Stafford Carson left his North Belfast pulpit to work in a Reformed seminary in the USA which was formed because Princeton Theological Seminary had lost its way just like the PCI has last its way straying from orthodox Presbyterian values by encompassing itself as a broad church catering for theological allsorts? I find it sad that there has not been a response from the reformed voices within the PCI, I wonder why? The only reformed response that I did here was that of a Hyper Calvinist on the Talk Back show from another denomination and as usual the 主播大秀 as always try to drum the lone voice of Biblical Protestantism out with two liberal voices.
Because the Presbyterian Church in Ireland has allowed for the ordination of women as elders, it does not mean that the P.C.I. are Biblically right, but what it does suggest is that they have bowed to the pressure of the world by the implementation of equality for women in the ministry.
Since the row in Portadown first broke into the public domain at Christmas a lot of Presbyterians including some clergy have been misquoting scripture using a passage from Galatians as their evidence for the ordination of women elders, the passage in question has nothing whatsoever to do with the ordination of women as elders and it is not surprising that those who are shout support for the ordination mainly come from the ecumenical and liberal wing within the church. One word comes to mind 鈥淛UDAIZERS鈥
The main problem I believe is that most have ignored the book of Genesis and the order of 鈥淒ivine Creation鈥, for the reason that women must agree to the leadership of men in the ministry is not cultural, because cultural change has also been used as defence for the ordination of women by some Presbyterian clergy, the only reason that women can鈥檛 be ordained as elders is firmly rooted in the order of creation, but I suspect that those clergy who support the ordination of women have a faulty view of God鈥檚 Creation they probably don鈥檛 believe in the literal account of creation.
The fall of man has confirmed the order of male leadership in the Church 鈥淔or Adam was first formed, then Eve, And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression鈥. The point that most fail to spot is that the scales have been balanced because God has given women a role to play in the home so that they don鈥檛 feel left out or feel degraded or abandoned by 鈥淣otwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety鈥.
What type of theological training are the P.C.I. clergy receiving; throughout the history of the church those that have been used of God have had no formal theological training, one only has to read what the most learned man in England Dr. John Owen had to say about John Bunyan.
"The king is reported to have asked Owen, on one occasion, how a learned man like him could go 鈥渢o hear a tinker prate;鈥 to which the great theologian answered 鈥淢ay it please your majesty, could I possess the tinker鈥檚 abilities for preaching, I would willingly relinquish all
my learning.鈥