Ö÷²¥´óÐã

great...just like that...I don't undersand what the rush was to take out money to put it into banks guarenteed by the government when the society is not investing in shares but in property...Was it selfish of people to do this now leaving those who reamain to ...what? what is the future of money in the PMS? Presumably many or all of the members are Presbyterians...are christains and in this case presbyterians any different to anyone in society when it comes to money and looking after ones self?

As presbyterians, as a family, we have a work ethic which led us to put our funds into PMS to help other presbyterians and yes, when we needed our money, it could be withdrawn. Our investment was not a short-term fix, this was to pay for our new house after years of scrimping and saving to avoid having a mortgage. In fact we have our life savings it. Now we cannot afford to pay for our new house and will not get a mortgage since my husband was diagnosed with a cyst in his brain in September this year.
There are so many questions that the society need to answer but there is also a responsibility on all of the shareholders to hold their nerve and make the right decisions at this volatile time. Yes, I think that there was an element of scaremongering which led people to apply for withdrawal of funds and put the cashflow situation of the society under extreme pressure.
What we would be concerned about is that the majority with small amounts in the society will make decisions which will affect the minority, like ourselves who have invested our life savings into a society which promoted itself under the name of presbyterianism.
At least the minister has given the society options to consider but they are only options and must be weighed up carefully.
If the members have used the PMS properly and are true presbyterians they will be on their knees asking God to bring them and all others like them through this crisis. We believe that a calm head by all involved and a longer term strategy will save the society in the long term and protect whatever savings people have in the society.
I would not regard myself as selfish, as long term could leave us with problems but I would rather be able to get our money in five years' time than not at all. We have worked for 25 years for nothing potentially if we cannot draw the money eventually.
I would regard myself as concerned that the right decisions will be made all round. May God's hand be in this matter and on all those who have to make decisions within the next week.

I am in total agreement with you. My concern was and is that a system such as the PMS was secure enough in that it did not depend upon the volitile shares that other systems were being knocked by. I don't understand what led to people taking out their money from the PMS which has left the rest of us with small or life long savings in the fund in a situation where we are not able now to access and for how long...
My point is that the actions of some has been in some ways selfish in that they have looked after themselves with no thought for the others. I would like to know how such a mass of people saw fit to make such a decision and others have not been privvy to this and are the ones left to be concerned.
I am in total sympathy to all who have saved money and who have money in this fund to provide for the many needs that come through life...

I feel that the whole matter has been handled very badly.
I called the society about 5-6 weeks ago seeking reassurance about the society's situation in relation to the 'credit crunch' only to be told that everything was fine and there was nothing to worry about. I feel deceived and disappointed that there was no form of communication or attempt at communication to explain the best way to work through the 'credit crunch'. Had a communication been sent out explaining the best way to ride the 'c.c.' was to hold tight or that payments were going to be capped to spread the fuinds at this time I think that the majority of right minded people would have responded favourably and would have shown a sense of maturity. The problem that I see now is that my family and many like us are paying for either the selfishness of our presbyterian brothers and sisters or the poor management of the society or both.
I feel annoyed, distressed, helpless and hopeless. Our minister has been totally supportive but the problem is can we feel the same support for the church family that we have given much time, effort and money to over the years? Not sure at this moment in time.

I do understand your feelings and expressions of hopelessness and anger combined. I hope you know there are certainly christian family who do care and we must see how this pans out but be together in it. Like you I am also waiting to see what is happening with money we have in PMS. The first I heard of any of this was on the news! We have recieved no communication directly to us and this money is for a particular situation that we could expect to call upon in normal circumstances. I do think that the PMS has been a very secure and helpful society to date, that the credit crunch has been a shock to everyone but I also like you am at a loss as to what has gone wrong. I wonder very much what the collective responsibility is and if there are others around us who took their money and ran who are now sitting back and feeling smug...
I will be listening with 'interest' to William tomorrow on his radio programme ...maybe we can get some clarity...Kind Regards...

Thank you for your kind response.
Yes, like you I will be listening to William Crawley's programme with interest.
Take care.

Maybe some kind investor can give you a low- or no-interest loan on the basis of seeing your PMS statements and be able to help you out? Really it's guaranteed money; it's just not a guaranteed timeline.

Perhaps, we'll just have to wait and see.

Oops, meant to say that I was very disappointed in the attitude of Donald Watts on the programme. He was both condescending and patronising and lacked empathy towards the people affected. He was rude, in my opinion, to William Crawley and therefore the general public.

it is interesting that Donald Watts was so unaware that the PMS web page is linked from the PCI web site and the contact address from there is mutual@presbyterianireland.org-I would have thought that this pretty well does link it with PCI. I understand totally that legally this may not be so but I think that there is no getting away from the facts that William was trying to convey of the relationship between the Presbyterian Church and the PMS. I would have liked to know if Donald Watts was or is a shareholder himself ,although I doubt he would have answered that question. Indeed many of the directors of PMS are themselves ordained Ministers of the Presbyterian Church. I think it would be insightful to know who has recently pulled out and how the rumour came about that has left us in this situation... I think that maybe something that has been brewing for some time may come to light,that some of our respected persons within PCI are very expert at making their money... Anyway I also thought that Donald Watts unfortunatly let himself down with his irritated attitude and defensiveness which did the cause no good and was rude on air to William who was only trying to air some time to what is a significant happening to one church in Ieland and effects many people..that is what his Sunday Morning Programme is about and Donald Watts had the opportunity to put the case of the church in a calm and thoughtful manner which he failed to do. William was putting out the fears and questions that ordinary people now have...but we are not ordinary, we have as much say as anyone else as to the situation with our money. Whatsmore there is no point in Donald Watts,whilst I do understand is under considerable strain at this time and had the unenviable task of being the churches spokesman, advising ministers to seek how they can convey their support and care to people in their congregations who are worried and dismayed about developments when he himself was unable to do likewise. I think PCI will have much to answer for in this and maybe there are some red faces already..or do they feel or know any guilt at all...

We are in total agreement with everything that you have said. At church this morning we had our Girls' Brigade enrolment service. I will admit that I found the words in the hymns very difficult to sing without a lump in my throat: Yield not to temptation, Father I place into your hands and Glory be to God the Father. Read the words at your leisure. As a choir member sitting facing the congregation, I would say that this was one of the most difficult things I had to do. But God is faithful and it has made me feel that God has His hand in everything. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO THOSE WHO LOVE THE LORD.
This week will be definitive and I think that everything you say is correct and we would echo your sentiments exactly.
If only Donald had shown that he understands the dilemma of his fellow brothers and sisters, I think he would appeared more in touch, not so removed.
Talk soon.

Can someone please provide me with a list of what they feel the PCI or the PMS did wrong, and why they feel it was wrong? Thank you.

I don't think that the complaints are firstly towards the PMS or the PCI..however I personally did not and still have not had any correspondence from the PMS and the first thing I heard was when watching the news last week.
I think that people feel that there has been a certain amount of selfishness on the part of members of the PMS who have taken out funds to put them in a bank secured by government. I think that this has made people feel as though this has been an unjustified move as the society did not rely on shares that would have rocked the system rather it was secure.
I think that subsequently one wonders who was in the know at the cost of those who were not.
I think that PCI distancing themselves from PMS is doing nothing to help the situation and people feel betrayed by their own church.
I don't necessarily think that anyone has done anything wrong but I do think that the initial actions of others and now the limbo with which shareholders are left means that people feel abandoned.
In all this we all know as Presbyterians that God is in ultimate control and that even our savings and the things we have accumalated for ourselves here on earth are nothing compared to His glory.
I think that people who trusted in PMS with their funds were probably rightly making provision for themselves and future committments they may have.
It feels like although I may be wrong that the fear of others in the economic uncertainty led some to take out their money as safety, leaving the rest of us in this mess. I think as christians we should make right provisions for our families whilst being good stewards with our money that is able to help the poor and not store up for ourselves on earth, I think that all christians especially in Ireland as a whole have it very very good and we need all to re evaluate where our trust lies and whether we are in fact sinning by the large houses , cars, holidays, food, entertainment...large and larger church halls, new churches, multi screens...(the list could go on and on) But that doesn't excuse what has happened here, maybe the ones who took out the money and put it where they felt it was safer are only storing for themselves..others have life savings, money for elderly parents, difficult situations, childrens funds for college, these are good provisions...
My question is, did just a few individuals do this or was there a rumour that went around that made so many people do it that caused the PMS to be in the situation it now is in?

Hello rainbowmisspiggy
Lesmog1 and baffledshareholder

If you are still checking out this blog, please can you post if there are any email groups being set up for members to share knowledge about what is happening?
I live a long way from Belfast and am hearing absolutely nothing except what I can glean from the internet.
There seems to be a deafening silence from the PMS and we all know how helpful the PCI have been :-(

Thanks

I don't know of any email groups but would be really keen to get something going. We live in North West of province and seem to have been among the last to hear anything. Would be interested in trying to contact others like us.

My 75yr old widowed mother has money in the PMS.I spend every free minute I have searching for ANY scrap of information about the current situaion so that I can (hopefully) put her mind at ease or at least explain what is hapening to her,before she hears about it in the news or by post.
I'm looking forward to the Spotlight programme tomorrow night at 10.35.
I emailed the PMS directly on Saturday morning (although to date I've had no reply) to see if Question and Answer sessions could be held 'locally' since the 8 weeks wait before the Administrator is obliged to update investors seems like a very long time to go with out some update. Althought I'm not aware of any official email group for worried investors or their families,the following link has been viewed over 1500 times since last week and gives the public the opportunity to leave questions/opinions/information about the PMS ( If the link doesn't work, google Presbyterian Mutual Society Forums and it should be one of the first web sites on the screen)

joylikes2shop, there are a number of links on this site with updates. The Moderator was on Sunday Sequence this week and he didn't rule out a hardship fund as assistance.

joylikes2shop here is the link:

/blogs/ni/2008/11/presbyterian_moderator_to_addr.html

What exactly would you like to know?

Thanks Augustine_of_Clippo.I don't know how I've missed this set of blogs till now...the one with 85 posts took quite a while to read and quite frankly scared me a wee bit.I'm a simple person and am only interested in keeping abreast of any PMS information so that I can put it into even more simple terms for my elderly mother who has her savings with them.Some of the comments in the 85 post blog 'lost' me(I'm NOT a church goer and have realised after traweling throught the posts that I am obviously not very well read either !!) but there were a few posts which I could relate to. Anyway, in answer to John-Wright,the sort of stuff I'd like to know is:-
1) If investors were in a position to/prepared to leave their savings in the PMS indefinitely,instead of demanding repayment ASAP, would this be a option which is feasible and which might end up with less potential loss alround ?
2)Is there any possibility of updates from the Administrator before the proposed 8 weeks have lapsed ?
3) In the event of the PMS being wound up, who gets 'first call' on the funds-the shareholders or those who have 'loaned' their money to the society ?
4)What are the current liabilities of the PMS ?
5) Is there any possibility of 'local' Question and Answer sessions being held or PMS investor forums groups being set up (I'm a firm believer in the saying 'it's good to talk')?
6) Is there anything PMS investors can or should do to 'help' eg write to local government officials ? I was interested to note the transcript of the debate in the NI Assembley on Monday 17th November where a few MLA's declared an interest in the society-perhaps they would be the best people to contact.




I'm too tired to think about this anymore for tonight, but will continue to visit this site regularly when I'm not checking out the following site.

joylikes2shop-

I'm no expert, and maybe someone else can provide a more informed answer than me, but in response to the first two questions you had:


"1) If investors were in a position to/prepared to leave their savings in the PMS indefinitely,instead of demanding repayment ASAP, would this be a option which is feasible and which might end up with less potential loss alround?"

Yes I think that would absolutely be the case; the more people are prepared to wait it out, the better off the rest of the investors will be. (Some need the money out and would have been withdrawing anyway, but that won't make an overall difference.)


"2)Is there any possibility of updates from the Administrator before the proposed 8 weeks have lapsed?"

As I understand it, the assessors are working up a report, and it won't be available before the end of the 8-week period. But that may not be such a bad thing if it causes people just to wait....

I sympathise with your mom's position: honestly if she doesn't need the money within the foreseeable future then she's in a good position since the PMS has assets that will recover with the general economy and be there for her someday.

Joy

This may not be of much help but I think you are unlikely to get much hard information before the Administrator has completed his investigations. Someone in his position will not issue a report which he would later have to retract or qualify. I think you will have to be patient for, while I understand the desire to know what is happening, until there is information available that is solid and vouched it really can be of little use to you or anyone else. I really think 'back of an envelope' calculations in a situation like this probably do more harm than good.

You do now, however, have the assurance that no precipitate action by any bank or creditor can bring down the Society - under Administration it is protected from that and it does not matter what writs or anything else may have been issued.

The Administrator has a legal duty to find the best way forward for everyone involved and the power to protect the Society's assets until the creditors can agree on his proposals. There will, at some stage be a meeting where creditors can vote on his plan for the way ahead - it is at that stage that whether or not people are prepared to take the long view may be important. I am sure the Administrator will consider the feasibility of your first suggestion among the other options open to him.

You ask about the relative priority of (1) those who have advanced loans and (2) shareholders. In general first priority is to 'secured creditors' (those who have registered a legal right to specific property or assets), then other 'charge holders' (again people with a legally binding right to more general assets such as the debts due to a company), then 'preferential creditors' (such as claims for pay and redundancy from employees), then 'unsecured creditors' (everybody else - but not shareholders). Shareholders generally only receive payback when the debts due to all the others I have listed above have been fully satisfied including any interest accrued on them.

I suspect one of the most useful things you can do while you are waiting in the meantime is to lobby every political representative you can think of.

I hope this may give you a bit of information - I'm afraid, however, you should not rely on anything I have said as it comes only from the knowledge I have had to acquire over many years of dealing with people affected by bankruptcy and severe and unexpected financial loss.

Joy

Just a very short post - I was reflecting last night on this situation and there is one very important factor everyone involved needs to keep in mind: the emotional and psychological impact on those who are feeling extremely vulnerable fearing the loss of what has been, perhaps more than anything, a security net. The loss of that sense of security can be devastating especially for the elderly and they need to be able to express their fears and feel the support and care of their community.

I shall think some more about this during the day and when I have some free time this evening return with some suggestions - I only hope you will excuse my impertinence as an outsider in offering them.

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your informative and easy to understand thoughts and views.I totally agree that the important factors mentioned above -'emotional and psychological impact'- probably are the biggest issue right now and thats why I naively think that if there was some 'good news' to report on the financial situation of the society at the moment, it might help raise everyones spirits.All too often I am hearing uninformed (and mainly unaffected) people quoting inaccurate facts about bankruptcy and liquidation which can only add to the confusion and panic.
Anyway, thanks again for your views.
Joy

Joy

Thank you for your kind words. I have had some thoughts and spoke at lunch time to a few contacts - I think there may be things which people can do to help those most vulnerable. I believe it would be best, however, to watch the Spotlight programme tonight and maybe comment after that - it will in any case take a couple of days to get approved responses from those to whom I spoke.

Take care...

Portwyne-

Are you, in fact, saying that you are Donald Watts in disguise and all this time have been using this blog to indulge your wicked liberal theology and crazy flaming postmodernism?

Woe is me for I am undone!! How did you guess?

In my fantasy world I wear mitres too, sing mass in Latin and keep an icon with the koimesis of the Virgin beside my bed...

Boys.....you've lost me again- quoting all these fancy words and stuff !!!
I don't mind who you are,just keep it simple :-)

Hey Joy - we were just keeping up the normal business of the blog - if you hang around when this affair is over maybe you'll get used to it...

I have just watched 'Spotlight' and it rather confirmed my suspicion that it will be some time before there is much concrete news. While we wait a lot of people will suffer considerable distress and anxiety and I would suggest that all Christians, not just Presbyterians, should feel a responsibility to address the pain of their fellows.

In these circumstances people feel a need for information, a need to talk, a need to connect with others in the same situation, a need for understanding, and a need for coping mechanisms.

Meetings of those affected, perhaps not held under the direct auspices of the Church, would almost certainly be useful especially if a constructive atmosphere could be maintained. Such meetings might explain the process of administration in general terms and signpost those attending to sources of help in managing the lifestyle changes that may, in some cases, be necessary at least for a time. Advisers could perhaps be in attendance to provide an outline of the services which are widely available in the community but with which investors in the PMS may be unfamiliar.

As important as this, advice should also be offered on how to deal with the emotional problems people are facing. Those who are experiencing un-understood change can be very vulnerable - there are strategies which may help one to accept and adjust - people need to be informed what they are and how to apply them. Some people, however, simply cannot cope, those who would care need to know what are the danger signs which will allow us to recognise the symptoms of profound despair and how we can address that situation.

There are agencies and organisations in the community which can provide all the services I have mentioned. I spoke to three contacts today to see what the attitude of their management might be to offering their support at a public meeting (or series of meetings) if such were called. It was guarded, subject to clarification, but essentially positive. It would appear the Church is moving slowly and cautiously; if some of those directly affected want to take action for themselves in the meantime the resources are there to help them do so. I would glad pursue things further with my contacts if it would help. Over to you...

Why don't joylikestoshop and goodbyepci and even maybe the sensitive soul Lesmog get together and arrange a meeting of interested shareholders? Take some freaking initiative? (Love you all.)

PORTWYNE...I'm glad to hear you think that meetings of those affected would be helpful and also think that the attendance of advisers from the agencies and organisations you've mentioned is a wonderful idea. You seem to have some valuable contacts as well as a great understanding of the emotional needs of those affected by the current PMS situation.

John_Wright.....You don't half come accross as being a 'Grumpy Young Man'...I'm not smart enough to know when you're being nice/helpful/argumentative or condescending (here endeth the use of my big words for tonight)but what a great idea about us arranging a meeting of interested shareholders !!!...HOW do you suggest we do it Mr Smarty-pants !! If we start giving out personal contact details over the internet we run the risk of too many (in my humble opinion,)SCAREY people like you getting in touch !! Besides, as a lowly teaching assistant and mum, I don't have any contacts or free time during the day, and wouldn't be professional or knowledgeable enough to organise this sort of thing myself. However I would be only too happy to help anyone more capable in setting up such help groups/forums or meetings. (hint,hint.. Portwyne ! )

Rainbowmisspiggy and goodbyepci...I hope we get to meet some time, you sound like nice people.

In the meantime, all I can do is point everyone in the direction of the following site,purely because it's a bit easier to follow than flitting between all these (wonderful but -in my opinion-disjointed )Ö÷²¥´óÐã blogs pages, AND it also lets you see how often the site has been viewed(over 2000 times now) and MAYBE if we're all looking at the same pages we'll not feel so isolated AND if you're registered you can send a private message to other
registered members without the whole site having to know your personal details.

Joy - John is a pussy cat really - his blog is apparently of a different personality type than himself! ;-)

In a certain sense though he has a valuable point. A situation like this can leave people feeling inert and powerless; discovering that one is not a helpless victim, that there are things one can do, with support, to help oneself (self-empowerment) often brings a new and brighter perspective and can change not just one situation but sometimes a whole life.

I believe this is a situation where it will genuinely benefit people if they empower themselves - I will do what I can (in the background) to facilitate that process if you think it might help.

You raise some valid concerns - I appreciate it is hard to know where to start and no one in their right mind would publicly identify themselves on the internet.

Let me update you with a couple of things I've done that I hope might assist you to get things moving.

A government sponsored charitable organisation based west of the Bann has said that in principle they would coordinate the setting up of a committee of savers/relatives - i.e. would provide a telephone contact point, host meetings, provide practical support including access to a major firm of chartered accountants. An advisor from a community network group would provide assistance with structuring and organising a new committee. A charity involved in emotional support and crisis management would send observers to that committee and provide speakers/workshops at any public meetings.

I hope that degree of facilitation might be sufficient to allow some bloggers to have a go at doing something which will benefit themselves and potentially many others.

Representatives of the groups I mentioned are meeting on Monday morning to try to firm up the assistance they would offer. I have asked them at that stage to publish contact details both here and on the other site you mentioned.

In the meantime maybe if there are any Presbyterians who are interested in joining a committee to organise information and support events they could indicate their willingness to do so by leaving a comment to that effect on the blog. It might be useful for the group who are meeting on Monday to know if their efforts are required!

I am afraid work will take me out of the country from tomorrow morning to Sunday evening so I can't contribute anything more for the moment.

All- Read Portwyne's post #33... it could be very helpful. This kind of action may provide some of the solutions investors are looking for ahead of any 'official' action from the PCI, which could be some time off. (And yes, I am a pussy cat.)

portwyne can you contact me in person about the committee that's being set up? If you send me an email with details and contact information, I can get in touch. I would like to find out more. My email is: william.crawley@bbc.co.uk

Portwyne....You are a STAR !!
I imagine most investors would benefit from -and welcome- ANY information that the groups you mention, could provide.If nothing else, at this stage it's good to know that someone is doing something constructive about preparing and sharing information.I hope you do get some positive feedback here from other bloggers.
Have a safe trip- we need you back here fit,healthy and raring to go ASAP.


William_Crawley....I am very grateful for all the clear reports you have produced on this subject since the news broke 2 weeks ago.Please keep up the great work.

John_Wright....Meaow :-)

Incase anyone out there is still following this blog, you might be interested in reading the following links :-

(Dated 29th Nov 2008)



(Dated 26th Nov 2008)

Joy

It does not appear as if there is any great interest from the bloggers in setting up a committee or organising a few information evenings. Perhaps the updates on the Church's website and pastoral care by clergy at congregational level have been sufficient to allay people's fears while the Administrator does his job.

I understand my contacts will meet tomorrow in any case - they will not now, in the absence of any clear demand for such, seek to facilitate a committee but rather put together an information source book - accessible on the web, maybe also on paper, which would cover the following areas:

Where to get advice on :
* Managing your finances
* Budgeting
* Dealing with debt
* Negotiating with creditors
* Understanding entitlements and obtaining benefits

Stress: Coping and Not-Coping
* Stress factors
* Protective factors
* Where to get help
* How to ask for help

Much of this information should be of use even for other people affected by the 'Credit Crunch'.

My greatest fear from this whole situation is that it will lead to people taking their own life. In spite of all the publicity about young people, the elderly are probably at even greater risk of suicide. The PMS situation has produced an exceedingly dangerous combination of factors: sudden lack of security, uncertainty, feelings of helplessness and vulnerability combined with, in some cases, a loss or diminution of two of the greatest protective factors against self-harm: religious faith and solidarity in community.

I would expect any guide to spell out in clear and simple terms: risk factors leading to suicidal thoughts, warning signs, how to respond, and what to avoid.

If you have reaction to this, Joy, thoughts or comments, please post them and, if they are online early enough I will forward them to the meeting tomorrow.

Hello Portwyne

Sorry I didn't see your post last night and hope that the meeting today was succesful.I think that the information source book sounds like a really helpful idea.
I was surprised that no-one else has registered any interest here in becoming involved in the support group you mentioned-perhaps people want to be able to attend such groups if they are available but feel that they wouldn't be 'qualified/knowledgable/confident' enough to be able to 'organise information and support events'.(or maybe they don't have the time or just cant be bothered)I must admit that I feel like a very small fish here and wouldn't be sure that I could make much of a difference or be much help.....but I'd be very happy to get involved if more 'qualified/knowledgable' people would tell me what needs done.The other thing is, without people leaving some comment here, it's difficult to know just how many times your blog has been read.(Perhaps Mr Crawley has some way of telling how many hits this blog has had.)
The other site I look at every day ( shows at the top left side of the 1st post ,how many times the 'thread' has been viewed. To date there have been 2681 viewings-I've been keeping an eye on these figures recently and it seems to be viewed around 200 times a day.Whilst I think that this seems like quite a big number of regular viewers, it's really not that many if there are 9500 investors in the PMS.
So maybe your blog just wasn't seen by enough people.

I do believe that some forum specifically for PMS investors would be a help, however the more I look into it,the more overwhelming and complicated a 'question and answer' session seems to be.
You've maybe already worked this out, but if one venue was to be made available for a meeting of all PMS investors, it would need to be at least the size of Belfasts Odyssey Arena.Not only would this probably cost a fortune,but because of the size of the Arena not many individuals would have an opportunity to ask questions so I now wonder what purpose a meeting on this scale would serve.
Secondly,because not everyone has access to the internet,regularly reads the local newspapers etc. letters would need to be posted to investors (using snail mail !),giving adequate notice of any meetings-which further adds to the complications.
Perhaps at this stage, because everyone knows that 1)their money is 'frozen' until further notice, 2) that everyone is in the same boat and 3) that nothing can or will be done until the Administrator concludes his findings,there is no point in doing anything right now.
Who Knows ?
I'll sign off now, but will check back here again tomorrow.
Thanks again for all that you are doing Portwyne-I really appreciate it and I'm sure there are plenty of others that feel the same but are too shy to say so.

Joy I understand the meeting today went very well.

What is currently envisaged, subject to board approval by both groups involved (expected by Wednesday), is the hosting of a meeting in mid-Ulster which would not be restricted specifically to those affected by PMS but open to any affected by financial stress caused by the 'Credit Crunch'.

That meeting would explain such processes as Administration and signpost sources of help and advice on:
* cash management on a budget,
* coping with unexpected straitened circumstances,
* benefit entitlements,
* crisis payments,
* managing stress and emotions,
* being aware of suicidal feelings in those around us and finding strategies for dealing with them.

That meeting would be followed by one or more smaller meetings where intensive training on the above areas would be offered to people who are willing to offer support to those affected in their own communities - such people being provided with a back-up framework of information and support.

I believe a web resource is also envisaged.

I hope to be able to post details on Wednesday of the organisations involved and contact details at which point I hope I can stand aside and let those who know what they are doing get on with it...

Portwyne and Joylikestoshop - thank you for all you are doing. You may think that the investors are not interested - but they are - some don't know how to use internet etc so therefore can't keep up with all of this.

Investors want to talk and want to keep lobbying local Government and Treasury for some kind of reassurance regarding the Financial Guarantee -

Also it seems to me investors are also using the Church on a Sunday for discussisions - I understand the PCI are setting up some kind of hardship fund - perhaps this is the first step towards help.

We need to keep our voices heard - we need help from Government and the PCI.

What about a rally in Belfast?

Joy and Crazy

I have been guilty of not explaining the thought-processes and assumptions which underlie the suggestions I have been making.

The type of response advocated by the organisations who are offering the help I mentioned in my last post derives from a certain analysis of the situation. They are in effect suggesting learning how to cope with the financial and emotional strains of loss - loss of capital and loss of faith. The assumption is that investors will not receive any fast repayment of their shares in, or loans to, the Society.

I believe this is a reasonable assumption and people need to prepare for that eventuality. There has been a certain amount of essentially wishful thinking emanating from official sources which I fear we will have to discount. The Administrator has to come up with practical, workable and equitable solutions within a legal framework which will achieve majority acceptance when put to the creditors (in material terms, members who have advanced loans).

If the Administrator is to rescue the Society either the government steps in and underwrites the Society's liabilities to members (and this is not a simple matter of guaranteeing deposits - two thirds of the liability to members is in the form of loans) or the members agree to a moratorium on the withdrawal of any funds, shares or loans, from the Society for a considerable period of time. I can not see how there could be a provision made for exceptions.

Only the first of these alternatives offers the prospect of quick access to funds.

If the Administrator proceeds to wind up the Society the greater part of its assets is the mortgage advances it has made; by my reckoning around 70% plus of these have been advanced in the last two financial years. We might then reasonably expect that those mortgages will have a fair period yet to run so this money will only be able to be collected, as it becomes due from month to month, over quite a number of years to come.

The other major asset is the investment property - (we can discount revaluation which nets to zero over the last four years) - roughly a quarter of the portfolio was purchased in y/e March 06 and another quarter in y/e March 07 - so half was purchased at peak or close to peak prices. Current market value will almost certainly have dropped even below the March 2008 Balance Sheet figure and a forced sale valuation would be lower still.

It will take time to turn the property asset into cash unless there is a willingness to sustain a major loss.

In this scenario of orderly wind-down the Administrator would probably project a return to creditors of so many pence in the pound which would only be payable in a series of dividends spread over several years. Unless there was a very good realisation of assets shareholders would get nothing or very little and that at the end of the whole process.

This is only how I understand the situation from a very partial possession of the facts. It does not make for happy reading but, if I am to any extent correct, it emphasises the need to lobby for government action and, should that fail, to be ready/prepared to cope with the hardship and distress many are bound to experience.

Portwyne

Thank you for your very realistic post - I am in full agreement - it doesn't make for happy reading but we do need to lobby government.

All shareholders and Investors should write to Minister - Arlene Foster and then Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown to get our message out loud and clear. We need to explain the effects of this on our individual needs. At the end of the day this problem has arisen because of the lack of government guarantee and the government has helped every other Financial Institution - hopefully we won't be the fall guys!!

We need full monies guaranteed, as £20000 per person would not cover some investors.

Alistair Darling did mention, in his Pre-Budget speech, that he would be reviewing Mutuals in Northern Ireland.

Another idea would be a petition - not sure how we could arrange this.

Joylikestoshop -you've been off line for a while? What do you think?

Hello.I haven't dissapeared-just been busy.
I've just read the last few posts and will now re-read them to make sure I've fully understood all thats been said but so far it all makes sense and seems realistic and fair.I'll post this very basic and short reply for now just so you know I'm still here, and in the mean time here's todays coverage from the News Letter,

Joy - it is very frustrating for me - when you have to work through intermediaries (and I do thank them!!) it takes so long to get things done. The requisites for a meeting are slowly falling into place and I will definitely post details before the end of the week - or die in the attempt!

Portwyne
I'm logging off 'NOW' and probably wont be able to comment much before Saturday(family commitments !)although I will try to read any comments left here or on the other web site I use (see links above) as often as possible.
The information you've posted on this bog, and the lengths you are going to in order to help the PMS situation is - in my opinion-amazing.
I don't know who you are, or how and why you've become so involved (I must read back over all your blogs to see if I've missed some vital clue :-) )
But in the mean time, thank you again for all that you appear to have done and to be doing !!
Best wishes Joy

This thread is becoming rather hard to find so will add any future comments on Mutual Money Misery...