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Yikes. Well, Whitehell is McConnell's baby. No wonder he's balking when it comes time to give up the reigns. And, honestly, I'm sure many of the church's faithful are very happy about that, because McConnell and Whitewell are like Wimber and Vineyard, or Wilkerson and Times Square, or even Jobs and Apple, Gates and Microsoft. Their very identities are bound up with the organization and the organization is an extension of their charisma. Max Weber coined the phrase "routinization of charisma" to describe the process of giving up control and having someone else carry it on... it isn't a comfortable transition, and it'll never be the same as when the founder was in charge.

I haven't much time for McConnell or Whitehell, but I can tell you those people are probably okay with McConnell staying on.

A couple of pics that I took tonight Thanks William for the enlightenment as it is of particular interest to me as some immediate members of my family are members at Whitewell, as far as I can gather pastor McKim was due to take over in October this year, the secret tree in Ormeau Park will be getting a visit.

If I remember correctly, something very similar happened at the Iron Hall assembly in the mid 1980's. The situation led to a split in the church and the formation of the Olivet Fellowship on Mount Merrion Avenue.

Similar thing happened in the early church too, with Saul deciding to up sticks & move away from Judaism, following his disaffection with it. I hope Whitewell doesn't get razed to the ground by the Romans.

What's the secret tree?

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Augustine

There's no point in asking what the secret tree is, it's secret, in fact if the hippy did tell you he'd probably have to blow up the blog.

John

You're probably dead right about this there are churches 'up and down the country' centred on the 'charisma' or reputations of particular individuals, it's a pity really.

Prayer closet.

If it hadn't been for the indications by Reuben Smith in post 7 that he is a member of the congregation himself, one might almost have though that the post was written by a staunch atheist. The picture of that church painted there sounds like it is very much about power, lying in the pursuit and maintenance of that power, exploiting the gullible and accumulating worldly goods.

Petermorrow, a few threads back you said Pastafarians would never be able to sell snake oil like christians. Maybe you were right. We FSMers may indeed be much outclassed by christians in the con department.

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Peter Klaver

I'm about to make myself even more unpopular...


Christian Hippy

It sounds (a lot) like you are saying that "the secret tree in Ormeau Park" is the/your/a "Prayer closet".

You see, it's exactly this kind of christian mythical, mystical, mumbo ma jumbo that makes me want to run away. (No Peter not to the FSM, sorry) If you want to pray, fine, great in fact I've no quarrel with that, but see all this evan-jelly-cal lingo malarkey could we please dump it in the trash where it belongs, once and for all, the church is suffocating in it.

Pastor McConnell's prayer tree!

Pmorrow using my phone so have to be concise Matthew 6:6.

Christian Hippy

I had really hoped you wouldn't quote Matthew 6, a prayer tree sounds like the exact opposite of it.


Helio

In a way you're right about Paul being disaffected with Judaism, he wrote about it in Philippians, and Galatians and other Jewish Christians had to comes to terms with it on the basis of Hebrews.

Disaffected though is probably a bit strong, either way, ordinary human thoughts and emotions are very much part of who we are, come to think of it thoughts and emotions are very much are part of who God is, in one sense Christianity is very ordinary. :-)

Peter, yeah, for sure. The point I would make is that the Christian church "behaves" (in the corporate sense) exactly in the sort of way one would expect if Christianity were a made up religion purely based on human misunderstandings, misgivings, hopes, fears, weaknesses etc. There is no sign of a divine imprimatur there whatsoever. Now, Christians very often make the excuse that that is because they are humans, and that is true. However, I would also point out that part of it at least is that there isn't *actually* a god.

But hey ho.

I see Helio, so it's a sign you're after. ;-)

yupppa, would you please contact me to discuss your comment. If you send a contact number via william.crawley@bbc.co.uk I will be in touch. Many thanks.

Peter, not a "sign" as such. The signs are all pretty clear, as they are in all churches. You don't need to be a master diagnostician to work out that whatever they all think they are praying to, or think they have on their sides, it ain't a "god".

Here, anyone know where the MetTab punters stand on creationism? [Probably will muddy this thread even further!]

Now we're all wondering about the identity of our Mystery Mole :-)

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Here, anyone know where the MetTab punters stand on creationism

I've heard him preach on several occasions Helio (the services go out on UCB TV and UCB radio every week) and I've never heard him mention YECism so far. He maybe realises that it's a contreverial subject. However, he's a dispensationalist (i.e. believes in the rapture) another contentious issue within the church. Dispensationalists are generally YECs.

Paul Taylor (AiG UK) has recently spoken at the church of God Glenmachan. Before they affiliated with the Elim, Whitewell was known as "Whitewell Church of God". I don't think Cecil Andrews was too pleased at the Elim Penticostal church accepting them as he reckoned there were still some outstanding and unresolved issues on the trinity. I'm sure Cecil has something about this on his website.

They believe and preach British Israelism.

No kidding! British Israelism?? In the 21st century?? I thought that nonsense had vanished years ago. Utter tosh, and *provably* so.

They believe and preach British Israelism.

Gosh, hadn't realised that. I've yet to hear Pastor McConnell preach on the subject

I thought that nonsense had vanished years ago.

No way Helio, It's alive and well in Norn' Iron, and quite widespread:





Another belief which I reckon is synonymous with YECism.

ref. Post 22 and post 24:

Boys-a-dear.

Whitewell are a Sabellian oneness pentecostalists crowd and have named one of the rooms in their Tabernacle building after the oneness heretic Gordon Magee. Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries came to Belfast and put an advert in the Belfast Telegraphs churches page publicly challenging James McConnell to a debate on his dodgy theology after McConnell threw down the gauntlet for anyone to debate him on his theology but McConnell hide from Jacob Prasch even though McConnell claims to be a Calvinist with a small c as stated in his book Light on the Hill.

Some light is thrown on the matter of Gordon Magee and the oneness issue by Pastor David Legge at

boys-a-boys!

The Moderator of the FPC the Rev. Ron Johnstone has written an article on British Israelism [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

A member of Whitewell has written a book on British Israelism called "Britain Awake"

Peter and Iris Robinson are first family and one of their sons were regular worshipers at Whitewell and Sammy Wilson was also a worshiper at Whitewell.

How do I know I sat beside the Robinson's

Re. oneness, and British Israelism -- yikes.

And, I'm utterly fascinated about what "Yupppa" wrote in #13, now deleted.... anyone see it before it disappeared? ;-) .

I remember my gramps telling me about some weirdo who lived near him who thought the British were the descendants of the "lost tribes" of Israel. I didn't think it was anything more than a very fringe Atlantis-esque fantasy - perhaps I underestimated. Of course, it is utterly refuted by genetic, cultural, linguistic analyses, but then that never stopped the creationists, so there is probably a similar mindset amongst this particular gaggle of nutters too.

Ok, maybe I'm too much into conspiracy thinking. But now post 7 by Reuben Smith has been referred to the moderators. Following posts 6 and 11 by yuppa and braveconcerned. These are three posters I don't remember as regulars on the blog here. Were they members of the congregation who spilled the beans on the church leadership? I didn't read posts 6 and 11 but post 7 certainly went in that direction. It made far-reaching accusations about how the church leadership, in their 'North Korea style', was indulging in exploitation of their congregation to buy cars, suits, etc, how they had no qualms about lying to get their way and how they fired McKim because he would upset the corrupt status quo in the church. So the picture was (surprise, surprise) that the church was all about control. And now all three posts have been referred to the moderators. Is this part of the 'North Korea way' in which the church leadership (or a 'loyal' member of the congregation) deals with criticism of the regime?

Post 7 mentioned how the congregation wasn't going to put up with it. Could we see some of them pressing for regime change soon?

"I remember my gramps telling me about some weirdo who lived near him who thought the British were the descendants of the "lost tribes" of Israel. I didn't think it was anything more than a very fringe Atlantis-esque fantasy - perhaps I underestimated. Of course, it is utterly refuted by genetic, cultural, linguistic analyses, but then that never stopped the creationists"

Neither did it stop the trans-Atlantic nutcase equivalent of the Mormons.

I didn't read posts 6 and 11 but post 7 certainly went in that direction. It made far-reaching accusations about how the church leadership,

I did read the posts Peter and there's a little of one of them included in my post 20.

It's a little odd that Pastor McKim seemigly has done something which appears to be so truly awful that he has effectivly been "excommunicated" from the church. The mind boggles. Or is it just a case of personalities clashing which can be very bitter in Christian circles even if the issues do appear to be very trivial ? Still, as I say, it will eventually all come out in the wash and filter down through the Christian sub culture here so I'll no doubt hear what's happened eventually (one of my brothers usually has his ear to the ground when it comes to this type of thing).

genie-mac.

Hi, I listen to William's program on Sunday morning, which I enjoy, as a rule. However this morning, the14th, he interviewed a chap called Berg who had written a book claiming to prove God did not exist. William was hostile to put it mildly. He interrupted Mr. Berg continually, shouted him down, and it appeared at the end of the interview raised the matter of Mr Berg's right to express opinions as he was not "a philosopher or theologian." Are you an academic snob William?
Contrast this with the awful fawning obsequious interview with Baroness Scotland, who William, from his attitude must consider one of the great and good. Were you tugging your forelock while while she murmured homespun platitudes? Unchallenged views about piety, faith and "goodness". I'm afraid I shall think of you as "ever so 'umble, Uriah," when you interview those you must consider "above your station," unlike poor Mr. Berg much below your "station."
cheers Bill Allen

The Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle was as full as normal for a Sunday morning service, pastor said it had been a difficult week as some have left are he wished them Gods blessing, and that there was no bitterness felt towards those that have left. and that there are confusing stories out and to take them to the altar and to leave there.

Apparently George McKim is holding Sunday services in the Newtownabbey area at 11am and 6:45pm.

Oh I don't know - it's all fair game for atheist arguments to get a rough ride too. I'm not a fan of "philosophical" arguments for or against god - it's a scientific question, and philosophers are not equipped for that.

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your very insightful Reubensmith. The issue of the disgraceful way Pastor McKim was treated should not be 'airbrushed' as things have been in the past. It is time for accountability at Whitewell and the people should know the truth. Therefore I too welcome this opportunity to shed light on the goings on there.

perhaps pastor mckim should be asked to reply to the comments which have been made. their were many rumours knocking about whitewell that needed answered. was pastor mckim being gagged if he signed a contract to keep these roumers buried and his faith could not let him do that , if that is so well done pastor mckim

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I have heard Pastor McKim preach and he would have been an excellent successor to Pastor McConnell. Could someone please tell me where the Peoples Church, Newtownabbey is ?

Whitewell needs a democratic structure for church government, which is open, transparent and accountable. Churches can't be run as fiefdoms.

FAO respectedmurphy


www.pcnministries.org is the website of the people's church that has a map and directions to get to it.

over 300 people attended this morning and even more are expected tonight.

god is really honoring this ministry at such an early stage

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Bill allen, I bet if the baronness had proposed six arguments FOR gods existence, she'd have had a rougher time!

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Yuppa, tried that web address but it didnt register on google, could you check it again as I am keen to attend.

there you go hopefully the link will work this time but if not here are the directions from the site


Directions to The Peoples Church
From Belfast, take M2 Motorway Northbound to Junction 4.
From the North, take M2 Motorway Southbound to Junction 4.
Leave the motorway at Junction 4 (Sandyknowes) and follow signs for
A8(M).

Join A8(M) to Corr's Corner Roundabout.
At Corr's Corner Roundabout take first left onto Ballyclare Road.
On entering Ballyclare Road Corr's Corner Hotel is on your right.

there is a map on the web site which may help if you dont know the area very well

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i have already sent William an email from my university email address so can assure you that i am not george mc kim!

In 1400 years' time we'll be looking at this as a sectional equivalent to the Sunni/Shia schism in Islam. Time we revived the ghost of Abdullah McCullagh, the Ulster Scots mullah.

Allahu akbar, hi, ye boy ye. See them oul' Whitewell boys thon, aa in a sheugh wi' their nebs in their oxters? Aye right. A'm awa til Corr's Corner fer a whean o'thon. etc etc

reubensmith why did not aford the same title to pastors mc connell@hobson
that you gave to pastor mc kim see post 48
could it be that you are a snake in the grass you knows his time is up
so you lash out with your fangs spreading your posion

no heliopolitan its the mc,s schism

feet-of-clay you dont seem to have anything constructive to add to this discussion apart from making ridiculous accusations and embarrassing yourself

you are the one that has made accusations that are ridiculous along with your mate reubansmith the two are sad persons that have never done any thing expect having a grudge and wrap chit chat club

(post 58 and 59)

Guys

It might be a good idea to keep in mind that this is the world wide web, with the emphasis on 'world wide'! :-)

with a name like yupppa you are the one you is embarrassing yourself

you are the one that as made accusations concering pastor mc connell&pastor norman hobson
as for discussion you are the one with the onesided view

I only get to listen to the live sermons over the internet live feed. I have heard Pastor McConnell on many occasions preaching that the spirit told him, that George was chosen to take over from him, and that it would be soon. So why has this not happened? was George getting too popular? Did Pastor McConnell not want to stand down and take a backseat role? or is Pastor McConnell now saying the holy spirit was wrong? Sorry if this appears so flippant, but the truth is out there somewhere. I don't want to see a slagging match but I too, would like George Mckim to have his say. But if he has had to sign a gagging order (if true) then surely that means, that there is something the whitewell is trying to hide or cover up.

For months we were told that the Lord was going to show Pastor Mcconnell who his successor was .After some wait we were told the Lord had revealed it was Pastor George Mckim .This now does not look like it is going to take place, so just WHO revealed this to Pastor Mcconnell .This either makes the Lord out a liar or else it wasnt the Lord talking to him, at all but a figment of his imagination

Its high time for transparency in Whitewell .Everything should be open honest and available to everyone. Every wage and every penny spent should be shown .You have people working a full week in outside jobs and on there day off going in helping with the cleaning .You have people working 40 50 hours then driving buses voluntarily 3 4 times a week .Do you EVER see many of the pastors with a duster in there hand or driving a bus .NO
There daily routine insists of 9.30 am,there own prayer meeting .( pastor William is the only one who ever attends the early morning church prayer meeting ) 10am tea and buns from cafe .10.30am out to visit sick home visits etc .1 to 2 pm at lastest home to twiddle thumbs .
MAYBE THEY SHOULD POST THERE WORK HOURS TOO

ourweecountrytwo post 62
1/ pastor mckim sould have waited on the lord as he always preach, but he could not wait, he wanted it all now ,if he was popular he took a small number with him i belive 300 persons out of a church of 3000 persons ?
2/he was part of a faction who wanted to take the church back to a more
hardline loyalish veiw point you conld never accept the good friday agreement along the lines of jim allister tuv.not ,
3/paster g mckim would have spoken out if their was somting to hide, with it he could have taken over the church.if paster mc kim signed a gaging order it would work both ways ,also mabye he has somthing to hide
himself. after all he got to keep his church car and house so he did all right,if things were so bad he could have give them up,the lord will provide.
see post one its near the turth

This is great, girls - please keep it up. More popcorn, anyone?

for expositer
did you ever see pastor g/mckim with a duster in his hand no ,
anyway ,i would rather be a doorkeeper in the house god,would you
not ,your points are good

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OK, Guys,

I'm going to try one more time, then I'm off for popcorn with Helio.

It's on the world wide web, this blog, it is, honest, the whole world... it's not, like, MSN or anything, it's the whole world...

Anyway, sugar or salt H?

Feet-of-clay

Thanks for the response, as I said I only listen to the sermons over the Internet, and assume you must be a member and have more insight than me.

But with regards to question (1) it can work both ways, if as you say George should have waited on the Lord as he always preaches. The same could be asked why Pastor McConnell didn't listen to the lord, when he preached that George was to be his successor (soon), why the change?

With regards to question (2) I didn't know that he preached from a hardline loyalist viewpoint, ( so I can't comment on that), although I have heard him preach that God loves us all no matter what religious persuasion we are. I have also heard him mention, that a lot of catholics and some hardline republicans came to the Lord in Falkirk.

Finally (3) I agree with you about a gagging order working both ways, which is why I would like to know both sides of the story. But if he got to keep his house and car, are we also assuming that when he left Falkirk to come to the whitewell, that they also gave him a house and car, or can we assume that whitewell was only giving him the same possessions, he left behind.

Like I say, I don't go to the church, was just wanting an insight to what happened, and how the Whitewell Church as a whole feel about it. There is two sides to every story, but from the original blog, we are only getting one.

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It is a very sad situation when what is on this page occurs and detrimental to christian witness.
With no axe to grind there are a few facts to consider:

The senior pastor has had little respect for years for his congregation -ask any question and invariably the questioner was told to leave

No published accounts of church finances inspite of the requirement to do so as a registered charity during over 20 years of my membership
Frequent inuendo from the pulpit; listen tape of 30/06/06 evening recording

Average ours worked by pastor 1.5 to 2 hours each morning . Several lived in my locality; we counted them out and counted them in

The call of the Lord and direction of the Holy Sirit in Whitewell is questionable

Ok, I have just become a member of this as I can't stand it anymore. I was lucky enough to sit under Pastor McKim's ministry in Falkirk for 20 years and I can testify to the fact that this man is a true man of God.

As to the comment about him being able to use a duster, or lack thereof, I can again personally testify to seeing that man constantly clean up sick, cigarette mess and alcohol residue before we had a building of our own. This was not a one off but rather an every meeting day occurrence. He was first in with the bucket and mop and also carrying and setting up of all the equipment needed back and forward to aforementioned meetings and he didn't hand over the mop etc to anyone else but rather led by exemplary example and DID IT HIMSELF. So, my point is, do not slander this man's name like this when you obviously know absolutely nothing about him.

In response to WarriorForTruth I have to agree. Having been a member of Whitewell for almost three decades. There must be more accountability and transparency in how the finances and the business is conducted. As a charismatic leader Jim McConnell knows how to manipulate the congregation and woe betide anyone who tries to disagee. The usual way to handle dissention is to strike up a chorus to drown out the person's voice. The person is later told not to come back.

to yupppa
call no man a fool
and you are clearly of the pastor mc/kim camp who were undermining
the church and trying to impose their veiws on others,
if you are in university(see post54) do you feel more important than the rest of us ,and calling names makes you right
i know most of the men you metion going back 30 years , they have always been pastor g/mckim
suporters and all ways sniping from the side lines
as for pastor/mc connell i do not worship him or any man i belive in the
universal church of god and not anything build by man .
WE ALL HAVE FEET OF CLAY and come short of the glorly of god

ourweecountrytwo


george does not preach from a hardline loyalist viewpoint-very far from it, in fact he never mentions anything of a political nature and this is just plain lies.

also george handed back his car to whitewell last night as he refused to keep it and as for his house, HE PAYS for it like any other other of us pay a mortgage so i really do not know why feet-of-clay is trying to make it seem like whitewell gave him a house, its either more pure lies or again he/she is misinformed.

over 400 at the People's Church tonight and they are having to look for a bigger church already...

post 75 why would you think that because i go to university that i would think im better than the rest of you?thats a viewpoint that has always been preached in WW and i certainly do not think im better than anyone, im far from perfect and will admit that freely but i strive for the truth and honesty which should be prevalent in ALL churches no mater the denomination.

and how exactly am i or any others for that matter trying to impose views of others?the People's Church is based on freedom of speech and open accountability.

as i member of WW for over 15 years i have seen how it has changed MASSIVELY in the last few years with more emphasis placed on money and the semrons being more and more controlling, i remember a sermon about a year ago when mcconnell told us on sunday morning that "anyone who asks questions or disagrees with him has an evil spirit inside him" this is when i started having serious doubts which have now been confirmed.

if the lord was still in WW what occurred on wednesday evening could never have happened-the lord would not let his house be dragged down to the level on wednesday night which was more akin to a pantomine than a church service!

PeterM, I'll take salt, but I can go sweet if we're sharing a box and you'd prefer. And a big Sprite please, but we'll need separate straws. [Is this the trailer or the main feature?]

to yupppa/ what a name, sounds like somthing out of star wars far far away
you seem to know alot about what pastor mc/kim has done, and is doing
and you seem a little one sided.
his house was paided with church funds like his car will he return that to .
one more thing see how long the so called big hitters (post71)hit pastor mc kim when they don!t get a bit of the pie ,pastor mc kim
will be glad that 400 now go to HIS church he will not have to share with anyone but himself all that lovely money Happy Days!

Helio, I'll join you and petermorrow for popcorn while being spectators in this thread. For non-believers it is kind of amusing to see the facade of 'the good news' and loving message etc. crumble, to show the bare power tripping underneath. Hopefully some believers would open their eyes because of this.

to peterklaver post80
you are right, you are popcorn full of air, you do not get it ! it is nothing to do with good news it is a thing of man (see post1)

This case is indeed gathering momentum and I too had to join to make comment and have to agree with post 73. I too had the privilege of sitting under both Pastor McKim and Pastor McConnell and both are great men of God who have served God faithfully over the years. I too can bear witness to seeing both Pastor's working hard and leading by example cleaning toilets etc; and to make comment to OURWEECOUNTRYTOO post70, unlike many churches, the house doesn't come with the job. For half of his ministry in Scotland Pastor McKim lived with their wee family in council housing, as does some of the Pastors in Whitewell do today. We forget that satan is the one who comes to kill,steal and destroy, and at the moment we are doing his work for him.

Yuppa

Thanks for the comments, this is why I was pointing out, that the Whitewell hadn't left him with anything, that he already had in Falkirk. I am always sorry when I hear of churches splitting, but am intrigued by what I am reading and hearing about the accounts. Nearly every other church I know have a special night once a year and all the accounts are published in a leaflet, for all members of the church, followed Q & A, then tea and buns afterwards. It is a sad state of affairs, I had 2 Aunties who had to leave the Whitewell, some years ago, because they couldn't afford to go anymore, as they had no more money to give.

it is also worth noting that this week the elim pentecostal church has officially severed all ties with Whitewell due to what has been going on...

yupppa - 84. The Whitewell website still claims elim association. Where are you getting your info from?

to all of you
Pastor/mckim has been planing this for sometime with his side kicks
the so called big hitters (post71) (back room boys ever one)

1/he all of a sudden has a website
2/is able to book a place for a church of 400
3/he could not wait anymore for pastor mc/connell to past on out of this world,he is geting older himself so what happen on wednesday night (see post79)was planed by pastor mckim and the so called big hitters(see post71) all because Pastor mc /connell is a old man and they wanted
what he and his church had build, and though their time to take over
had come what a surprise they got!

yes i noticed it still has it on the website and that nothing has been said but trust me its true...

post 86

says a lot about your mentality, everything has happened so quickly because THE LORD is working and there is nothing he cannot do!!!but you clearly doubt his ability and think that mere men could have done so much in so little time, its very telling..

post 86
my mentality !I am not the one that knows the mind of God
like you do, i have said before its a man thing noting to do with God,
you sound like a cusader for pastor mc/kim

i am passionate about the subject as i know the truth of WW and will not let a man of god be lied about, i do not claim to know the mind of god either just that its very apparent that god is doing a work as can clearly be seen, you sound very bitter and aggressive in all your posts would you like to tell us why?

Just like a few others i had to join cause i cant take any more, i agree 100% with posts 73&82. I also had the privilege of sitting under Pastor Mckim's ministry in Falkirk and he is a TRUE man of God and i dont think for 1 minute that he had planned any of what has happened, everybody who believes knows that God works in mysterious and wonderous ways. I also believe that The Peoples Church, Newtonabbey will continue to grow with the grace of God.

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post 85
the elim church will be glad to part with paster/mc connell,
their church members (where all going to his church)
and they are hoping to get them back,
they are some of the ones who went with pastor mc/kim ,being elim they do not part with much money

post 93

doesnt even make sense!does anyone actually take this person seriously and shall we just ignore his ridiculous comments and have a proper adult discussion?

Can we all just please calm down? It's important that we use this site for a proper exchange of ideas, views and concerns, and I appreciate the comments that have been made, but we must remain civil, gracious, and avoid attacking one another. Please stick with the facts and stay away from character attacks.

post 92
you are for getting paster/mckim was a willing man ,and took the money
like the rest of them for over 20 odd years
i agree with you ,all accounts sould be open for all to see
after all it is the church members money ,but you can see most of the money was spent on the building works and up keep it costs alot to run, look at the accounts for the waterfont hall, but alot of this spin put out by pastor mc/kim & the so called big hitters(see post 71 )they all took the money for along time
and this is how they hope to bring down pastor mc/connell

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see update top of page
and post 86
the logo of the new church
is "WHERE DREAMS ARE MADE AND DESTINIES ARE FULFILL"
sounds like RANGERS football culb!
or is it from God (see post 88)
i rest my case from this sorry man made mess

post 97
no man has my support i am trying to inform you their are two sides to this
man made mess ,and you are sounding high & migthy again
as for my progress ,you are the one who has made some progess
by giving pastors mc connell & hobson the same title as pastor mc /kim
pastor mc/kim you say was wanting to address thease matters it has taken him along time 20 years of doing the same as the rest of them taking the money WAS HE WAITING TO HEAR THE VOICE GOD TO or was he waiting his time to strike

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