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No apostrophe in "philosophers" there, Will! :-)
That's all cool, of course, but it does mean that it is inappropriate to be dogmatic (?godmatic) about god, and that the bible is only as much use as the person "interpreting" it, i.e. no use in matters of faith or doctrine at all.

Let's face it - atheism is the logical outcome of the Reformation; theology has hit the "Big Crunch". Calvin's relevance is that of a historical figure, his "teachings" are perhaps of interest for their own historical sake, but have been superseded, as have those of Jesus, Paul, Moses, Mohammed. Indeed, the "argument from authority" is well dead.

Thanks Will. Now, should that be "de-apostrophiSed", or are we going to have to get Markie to join this thread? ;-)

[Just kidding of course; it's interesting that the "z" was in common usage in English English until very recently. Similarly, in the 18th century, I understand that "color" and "labor" etc were perfectly acceptable in English English. We do have a funny wee language, that's fo sho.]

Just having one of my pedantry days :-) Nice work in getting "Chrysostom" past the spell checker!

So how do we feel Protestantism would have turned out, had Calvin never existed?

Helio

"So how do we feel Protestantism would have turned out, had Calvin never existed?"

I'd be more concerned if God had never existed.

Anyway, God knew Calvin before Calvin knew Him.

Hi Peter,
Genuine question - why would the non-existence of God render you concerned?
Cheers,
-H

PS. Training for the Nazareth bike ride going very well - hoping to raise lots of money for the nurses' training fund.

Helio

Genuine answer; how do I answer that without you knowing me, without us taking time to listen to one another, don't know, but I'll give it a go.

I think I've probably said enough these last months to indicate that I don't believe easily, and I'm not into 'testimonies'(!), if I've learned nothing else I've learned that Christianity (or life) isn't a soundbite, but how do I put years of association or non association with the church, or doubt, or belief and non belief, or church tradition or theology (Protestant and Catholic) into a paragraph?

How do I say what I want to say without it ending up sounding like another cliche or sounding like evangelism, or doing psychology, I've no idea!

So let's try this.

Let's assume for a moment there is no God and let's assume that life is what we make of it. Let's assume that I manage to get by with reasonable health and in reasonable comfort. Let's assume that I have no great tragedy to face. Let's assume that in my 60-80 years it is well with my... (never mind!). Let's assume that I have no reason to complain and even manage to share something of what I have with others. Let's assume that I die a painless death surrounded by those I love and who love me, and let's assume that others speak well of me when I am no longer with them. (wouldn't that be heaven?)

To what end?

And I ask that question only to suggest that if the non existence of God is worth thinking about, then it's (at least) reasonable to ask that question too.

Of course life isn't that straight forward, it throws at the most comfortable of us, even the most indifferent of us, something to wince at. The pain of the world provokes a variety of reactions, who does not feel anger, empathy, hopelessness, if not at their own circumstances, at the circumstances of others; life is terrifyingly real at times. Who does not want to contribute something to the cause of improving the lot of humanity, who does not hear the voice of justice whisper in their consciousness? Who is truly cynical?

The Irish Times ran an article after the 'Boxing Day Tsunami' a few years back, and the trust of it (I can't find any quotes online) was that there is no 'other' to rescue us, that God is dead and that we must draw strength from one another in the darkness, for there is no one else. This wasn't a Christian playing on people's fears, or using a tragedy for effect (and Christians to their shame have done that), it sounded like the cry of a human heart.

I don't know how you respond, I don't know how far you push your doubt or how large it looms in your thinking, but I find only one thing to be more troubling than a God who lives in a suffering world and that is a powerless God, or no God at all.

God or no God H, the world is as it is. Doing away with God doesn't remove our desire for justice, for freedom from pain, for hope, for an end to tears, for answers to even the mundane frustrations of life, and yes I know that the idea that a God who could allow the kind of world we live in raises many many questions, and it raises our ire, theology doesn't get God off the hook so to speak, but Christianity (taken in it's entirety) does at least hint at an answer, and personally I prefer that to just... well.... ehem.... petering out! :-)

I suppose I could throw harder punches of the kind I've thrown at myself, but really all I'm saying is that I just don't think anyone actually doubts that much. Not really.


And, I hope this doesn't sound trite or something, but I really am glad the bike training is going well, it's a real worthwhile thing.

All the best.

Peter

Hi Peter, I hear you, dude, but you ask "to what end?". I don't know about MY life, but I know that others will come after me. I can't change the past, but I can do something about the future. Pass it forward.

I do not believe in god - that is not a cause for despair (or concern). We're riding without stabilisers, and guess what - we're staying up. I don't know about you, but when I wonder "what's it all about?" I just look at my kids and the other kids on our street, in our town, in our country, in the world. THAT is what it's all about, and when they come to pass on the baton, that'll be what it's all about too.

Back then we saw as through a glass, darkly. Now we know a LOT more, and we can dispense with the fictions. There is hope in this chaos. There is optimism. But there is also responsibility. WE need to make it happen.
Cheers,
-H

Helio?

I don't really disagree with anything you've said about our children, the future, hope or responsibility, but you know, that works fine if everything trundles along for us on the basis of my assumption in the paragraph beginning, "Let's assume for a moment..." But it doesn't deal with the rest of the stuff.

It highlights too that you don't really doubt, not that much. Sure, you doubt specific things about God, but you don't go with it where some others go. (Not that that's a bad thing!)

As I've said before, faith isn't necessarily the opposite of doubt, sometimes it extends from it.

Maybe I ought to put the first few verses of Psalm 40, or the last verse of Psalm 88 on the poetry thread.

:-)

Glad to see these articles in the Guardian - Helm is always worth hearing.

He has his own blog called . Good stuff you know.