Is the World Cup too long? (148)
- 26 Sep 07, 01:56 PM
Sorry, sorry, sorry. But this World Cup is too long.
Yes, I agree the Haka is a meaningless one sided warm-up (I used to do some very choice hand movements when facing it and had a laugh); All Black Ali Williams should have had his head guard lifted and chucked for miles when he left it within spitting distance of the Scots; oh, and all the games should have been played in one country 鈥 well, what part of France contains Murrayfield?
But hats off to the for at least trying to persuade us that the Haka is heritage and theatre. If we hadn鈥檛 had it at the weekend we would have had nothing. Personally, I think you should be allowed to do whatever you want in response to it.
But here we are, and there are still four weeks to go until the final. It is hugely costly, hugely exciting, but it鈥檚 also too long by about two weeks.
The lasted too long and it felt it too, and it is because ours is so long that we have meaningless matches. That game between was meaningless
The is three to four weeks start to finish. And that鈥檚 enough for me thank you.
The players do get a good rest in between games, but I am away to tomorrow, am there for three weeks, and then I come back and still get to see the final!
Ka mate, Ka mate as they say in the Cotter household.
John Beattie is a former Scotland international who hosts radio and TV programmes for 主播大秀 Scotland.
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it is slightly different, you try playing one top ten team one day and then another 4 days later. impossible
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Too Long?
Recovery is an important part in a teams performance lifecycle. This isn't namby pamby soccer or cricket.
Plus you'r missing the major point... the shorter the World Cup the less time there is for an excuse to crack open a tinny and scream at the reff.
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I don't think the World Cup should be shorter. The only realistic way that could happen was if the minor nations were excluded. I have really enjoyed some of the games involving the minnows. They have worked for four years to earn their place in the sun & they deserve to enjoy it. These games also serve as a shop window for players from these countries to stake a claim for a contract in the lower divisions of european professional rugby. This also grows the game worldwide, albeit slowly!
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Last football WC was 4 1/2 weeks, but recovery time for players is much shorter. You can't play rugby games every 4-5 days as thay do in the fottball WC.
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Football world cup is actually a month long (30 days or thereabouts). My problem with this World cup is the bizarre scheduling - e.g. who gave italy 11 days to prepare for scotland match - or why have japan left for home already whilst georgia are only halfway through their group phase?
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Last football WC was 4 1/2 weeks, but recovery time for players is much shorter. You can't play rugby games every 4-5 days as thay do in the fottball WC.
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YES!!!!!!!!!!!!
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As you know yourself Rugby is a far more physical demanding game than most. If there was less recovery times between the matches, this would only benefit the major nations who have more depth in their squads and can rotate thier players. Its difficult enough for the smaller nations to compete, why make it more difficult?
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Yes i agree with you, the Hakka is a war challenge to the death, not very gentlemanly, even moreso with the throat slitting, and give an unfair psycological advantage.
England reply should be some morris dancing, Ireland the riverdance and Scotland should line up, as per Carry on Up the Khyber, and lift their kilts.
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The World Cup would work more effectively if it featured ten teams - New Zealand, Australia, France, South Africa, Argentina, Scotland, Wales, England, Italy and Ireland - drawn in two groups of five. The winners of the first group would play the runners up in the second group in the first semi-final. The winners of the second group would play the runners up in the first group in the second semi-final.
The other eight teams (including USA, Canada, Tonga, Samoa and Japan) would compete for a World Shield in a tournament running parallel to the World Cup.
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The five-team groups are the problem - four team groups would be over quicker, and more interesting. Have five groups of four instead, with winners qoing through to the QFs, and only the three best runners-up (based on tries scored). This'll encourage more attacking rugby and make each group a little tighter and more exciting. Also knocks a week off the length of the tournament.
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They only way to make the RWC shorter is to increase the squads to 33 players and play matches every 3-5 days. That will force the top teams to play their second stringers more often. But its impossible to shorten the final 3 weeks from the QF's onwards. Recovery time too long. And, it gives us a whole week to debate, banter with and insult the other team.
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Justin there was a beer commercial me thinks where the scots lifted their kilts after the Haka and it was deemed insulting to the Maori. They were raging. About the World Cup yes it is long but hey it is every 4 years and I am looking forward to the next one.
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No way, this is rugby not chavball where they pansy around for megabucks. Plus... I've waited long enough for the rugby WC to come around again, thankyou. I'm loving it!
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a typical british response. if you want the wc to be shorter what do you propose? do away with portugal, the states, namibia, georgia????? recovering from a rugby match is a whole lot tougher than recovering from a cricket or soccer match. and anyway, the sport is hardly a truly global attraction, so careful and thoughtful planning must go into the scheduling to maximise its appeal, not only to the stronger, established nations, but more importantly to the emerging ones. it's somewhat laughably ironic (given the results so far) that the 4 best teams in the world (ab's, oz, sa and the pumas) are all in unanimous support at the inclusion of the 'lesser' teams, whilst the british are totally against their inclusion, and prefer patronisingly to discard them into an oblivious 'b-grade' world cup.
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#8
John Beattie's actually Scottish mate. Don't think he's anti new zealand either; just thinks if your boys can do the haka (no problem with it by the way) then the opposition can respond in the way they feel best suits them. My personal favourite is the Wallabies chanting Humpty Dumpty to the rythym ;-). Plus even if you don't like it, it's not really the same as wiping your backside on someone's flag though; chill your beans chief.
As for the length I can see the point due to recovery time. To be fair if they are going to have large gaps between games (QF-SF-Final), use the time to put a plate competition in place for 3rd, 4th & 5th. Bit off topic I know but I have a thing about it...
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Please explain to me why you would leave Tonga out of your world cup considering they look stronger than most Northern hemisphere teams atm. Also if your going to split things because the others can't mount a serious challenge then the world cup should only really be the Tri nations and the winners of the 6 nations. So there are lots of games and it is dragging on abit but nobody is forcing you to watch namibia georgia and its excellent for such countries to play so just wait untill the quaters if your that dissatisfied
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#8
John Beattie's actually Scottish mate. Don't think he's anti new zealand either; just thinks if your boys can do the haka (no problem with it by the way) then the opposition can respond in the way they feel best suits them. My personal favourite is the Wallabies chanting Humpty Dumpty to the rythym ;-). Plus even if you don't like it, it's not really the same as wiping your backside on someone's flag though; chill your beans chief.
As for the length I can see the point due to recovery time. To be fair if they are going to have large gaps between games (QF-SF-Final), use the time to put a plate competition in place for 3rd, 4th & 5th. Bit off topic I know but I have a thing about it...
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Sorry John, but I can't agree with you. You can't expect international teams to play two games in 1 week and you only have to look what happened at the 99 WC for proof of that. I believe England played on the Wednesday and came a croper against South Africa. I feel I must apologise to you for the ignorant "Anti English Supporter" (thread 8), who seems to think you are English. Your blog finishes with saying you were a former Scottish International, but maybe he can't read! His flag would look silly with the Union Jack cut out, but at least he has found a use for it.
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8 "Anti-English" - just a small point , but I think you'll find John Beattie is Scottish.
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Not meaning to criticise Alex Schuster, but on what grounds would you separate the ten teams from the others? In this world cup Fiji and Tonga are still in the running, and have performed very well, whereas Ireland are almost certainly out, and have looked extremely weak. The Canadians gave Wales a tough time, the English victory over the USA was not all that convincing, Georgia have looked superb and Japan scored the try of the tournament. Not only that, but the 'lesser teams' have lent so much fun to this contest. Keeping them out would be elitist and we would have no right to call it a 'world cup'.
I disagree with the original article, on the same grounds as everybody else, recovery time. And personally, though the Scotlnd New Zealand game was a low point, I've found this world cup far more enjoyable than 1999 or 2003.
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NO!
its exactly the right length.
the sco-nz game was dreadful simply because NZ are so good, happened to get an easy group, and hadden picked a second string (and hung out paterson to dry once again). the apathy (to some extent understanderble) of our crowd didn't help either).
reducing it back to 16 teams would be a regression and a blow to the countries everyone is always saying the irb neglect.
moreover, those extra 4 teams actually mean we get more competitive matches. there isn't much between the 14th best team and 20th best team, but theres a big difference between the 8th and 14th.
the only problem is the scheduling, but theres probably just no way around that.
maybe we should just put less emphasis on the world cup, and play about 25% less test matches the rest of the time to stop them being de-valued and held as inferior to world cup or even 6 nations matches. the pre- world cup 'friendlies' are the nadir of this. the integrity of the test match must be upheld!
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Not going to be long enough for England or Scotland....
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I don't think the tournament is going to be long enough fo Scotland and England.....Go Tonga!
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Are you serious? No. It should be all year round. I'm having the time of my young life.
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Have you been talking to my wife? She sure isn't talking to me much as I have tried to watch every game and the prospect of another 4 weeks upsets her greatly. She doesn't seem to accept the argument that she watches soaps and CSI type stuff the rest of the time so quid pro quo.
It will start to feel quite long once we get out of the group stages, with matches every weekend or so, but players need time to recover or it would be like the retreat from Moscow by the time the final came round.
What is it with these over sensitive NZ fans? I watched a tri-nations game in a bar in Latvia with an affable Kiwi bloke last year. Great laugh - until I suggested ABs would choke again this time round. Sulky get got a real sad on.
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The haka was interesting in the days when the All Blacks visited us about twice in a decade, now it's merely boring.
I think you'll find that it would be quite possible to play the group games in less than the three interminable weeks that seem to be par for the course, it was just as long in 2003. At least this year none of the groups are foregone conclusions: England or Tonga, Wales or Fiji, Scotland or Italy and Argentina or Ireland.
Feel free to wipe your arse with the union flag as often as you like, pal. Why don't you (and your next door neighbours) follow Canada's example and become a proper country?
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Eng, Wal, Sco & Ire could form a team
that would go a long to reduce the amount of wasted time.
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Big Sid in post #14
It was actually a Whisky ad, i've got it as an mpeg somewhere. Sent it to a bunch of my Kiwi mates who all thought it was quite amusing :-)
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For the best part of a month we've had rugby most nights, and you complain??? This has been a great world cup till now, with the exception of all of NZ's games which have been foregone conclusions. Georgia have been my favourite team with the tremendous spirit (and strength) they have shown throughout. Next week we'll lose all the smaller nations and I remember feeling sad about that 4 years ago. The business end of the tournament comes and we'll lose the rugby festival feeling that we currently have. Maybe keeping the smaller nations in and having them play a second tier knockout phase wouldn't be a bad idea. Can you think of any of them on current form who wouldn't give it their all.
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Hey for Ireland I think it has been about 3 weeks too long already
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I can't believe all these comments telling Johnnie Beattie how long it takes to recover from a rugby match? JOHNNIE BEATTIE IS AN EX INTERNATIONAL RUGBY PLAYER so I think he might have a better idea than any of us how long recovery time is required.
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They could make the world cup shorter by increasing the size of the groups but having less of them.
Add another team, have three groups of seven, and you can keep the games ticking over while still allowing teams to rest. Top two from each group go through, plus two others (mini playoff tournament of the three third-placers?)
As for the haka, either it's a challenge, in which case you should be allowed to respond, or it's a bit of dance or theatre, in which case get it off the rugby pitch. Personally, I'd turn my back.
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Agree with the earlier comment - if there were 4 groups of 4 teams each then there'd be no need for such a schedule and would mean that all games could take place at a weekend. In effect, each team would get 6-7 days to recover b4 their next group game.
Disappointed that so far in this blog no-one's mentioned how NZ steals all their best players from the Pacific Islands. And what if NZ has a large Polynesian population and most moved there as children - why let the facts get in the way of a good whinge?
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If you think NZers are grumpy about criticism of their team, try living here!
I was born in NZ and am a fan of rugby but not precious nationalism, or the obsession that too many NZers have with the fortunes of the All Blacks. Any defeat is taken very heavily and if anyone from another land should even mention it, it's taken about as well as a slight upon one's mother.
For as long as NZers insist on putting all their "happy" eggs in the All Blacks basket this country will have an unfortunately large chip on its shoulder.
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it should be an 8 or 10 team tournament tops.
in all world cups a five nations or tri-nations team has only lost four times to one from outside that group of 8. Samoa beat Wales twice and Argentina beat Ireland and now France.
only cricket gives it a run for being the least competitive world cup of any sport.
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Previewed on this earlier maybe did not post as well?
Any way apart from 8 which i assume escaped being offensive most seem in favour of the tournament being as is . Not bothered by the haka too easy to wind up the kiwis any way., 20 years,See?
As for Mr Beattie we share a birthday but even fine player that he was 2 games a week would ruin the finishing semis and final.Game has got faster etc glad i played when i did .I hurt enough as it is .
Separation of comments does not suggest nh bias to shorten WC. Unless we play the minnows how else are we going to learn how to play ?? Agree with 36 but you forgot sailing, chips on both shoulders??
Goodnight
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This article just typifies why scots and the rest of Britain should stick to playing (and commenting on) football - something they know a little more about. Shame they still can't get a result in that world cup either. Rugby takes a wee bit more out of players than most other sports, and the only other way to shorten the cup would be to ditch the minnows. What a great way to build up the reputation of the sport internationally. Thanks for this insightful piece of journalism.
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Yes the WC is too long, especially once the knockout phase starts. I agree with a few of the comments and a second tier knockout tournament running along the main event would be great. I'd love to see more of the Portugese, Georgians et al fighting it out. The games would probably have more passion than flair than some of the quarter finals.
The Kiwi's have always been overprotective of their traditional haka, it just seems odd that the most passionate about the Haka, don't have a bit of Maori in them. All the Maori and Islanders I know, don't really mind where the haka is performed as long as they see it at some point. Source - living in NZ the past few years.
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No the world cup is not too long. We only get one every four years as it is so let's make the best of it ! I for one am enjoying watching the so called smaller teams and suggest that next time round we should have a few more.
Cymru am byth!!!!
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habitant - Comment 37
I have to disagree, limiting the number of teams in the Rugby World Cup would very much reduce the event. These teams need a big event to build up to if they are to improve the game in their countries, and this is it.
Besides; Georgia's game against Ireland, or Tonga's against South Africa, or for that matter Portugal against the All Blacks (despite the score, Portugal kept their heads up long enough to get points on the board, which is more than Scotland did. Portugal won some fans in New Zealand I can tell you.) show that so far the life of this competition is in the "minnows".
Can't wait to see them next Cup.
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Yes some of the small vs big/david vs goliath team games are unbalanced but it is inspiring to see the small teams playing with big heart and doing their utmost to get some points on the board vs. the likes of the AB's or SAF for that matter. For these countries it is about building up and for some of these players it will be the most memorable game of their life! Who were Argentina a decade ago? And now they take down the hosts in the opening game! A much better showing than scotland who field a second rate team vs the AB's to try and rest key players. That lack of heart should hopefully be their undoing - it certainly killed all the respect I had for them. Scotland - you've changed.
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How can you complain that the Rugby World cup is too long. Ok you say the football only lasted 4 1/2 weeks, but what about the weeks and weeks before that, that we had it rammed down our throats. On telly, in the shops, everywhere. You would have thought the football team were the World Cup holders!!!!
As far as i'm concerned the more rugby the better. The longer it goes on the more time i get off from the housework!!! (only joking)
As for getting rid of teams to make the competition quicker, it's A WORLD CUP REMEMBER.
To be honest the so called "minnows" have provided some of the most exciting games so far.
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Rather than 4 groups of 5, how about 5 groups of 4, where 3 groups have the top 12 teams and have 2 teams go through, and the other 2 groups have teams 13 to 20, with just 1 going through. Reduces mismatches, increases the number of close(ish) games.
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Jono. Perhaps you forget or overlook who won this tournament 4 years ago? Brits should stick to playing and commenting on football?? Please! There is quite enough obsession with the round ball game as it is thankyou.
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I agree that it is important to not exclude the smaller teams - Argentina, Georgia, Tonga and USA have all shown flair and deserve to be a part of the World Cup - this is the case in other sports such as football (soccer) and cricket, which helps to build their players and teams. The only downside is that players who perform well in lesser teams often get poached by other money-rich nations!
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John Beattie I take it you've noticed the attention your buddy Andrew Cotter got and so you've decided to stir the pot yourself. Good one mate!
As for all the criticism about the All Blacks doing the haka or stealing all their talent from the pacific islands etc...it just confirms how jealous some rugby fans are of the AB's. The haka lasts maybe 2 or 3 minutes before the start of a rugby game. If you're so bored with it take a break from your tv & get a cold beer out of the fridge or sing or do whatever else it is you want to do in order to bide time. As for the issue over poaching PI players eight of the current ABs squad (out of 30) were born overseas with most of them having been in NZ from childhood yet if you listened to some people you would think that the ABs would collapse without those 8 people to hold them up. Forget the NZ born talents like Richie McCaw, Carl Hayman, Tony Woodcock, Leon MacDonald, Aaron Mauger, Nick Evans, Conrad Smith, Luke McAllister, Anton Oliver, Dan Carter or Dougie Howlett etc....no its Mils Muliana, Rodney So'oialo, Joe Rokocoko, Sitiveni Sivivatu, Jerry Collins, Chris Masoe, Sione Lauaki & Isaia Toeava that are the superior ones in the team. Take those 8 out of the team and the AB's would collapse, right? Wrong!!! What all you anti-AB commentators are angry about is the fact that the AB's consistently beat your teams. Yeah we haven't won a world cup since 87 but even the best can't be the best all the time. Those countries who've won the WC in the past played WINNING rugby at the time and that can't be taken away from them. I have no doubt in my mind that the ABs will win another WC whether that be shortly or in 2011 or further on into the future. For a small country (of 4 million ppl) we have done well to grow world-class players and coaches and support staff (medical etc) and no matter what anyone says there is no country that can currently match our success in the sport (75% win rate over the past 100 years). It is for this reason that people like to attack the ABs- there teams aren't as good as the ABs yet they can't bring themselves to concede that point. No instead they want to detract from the ABs superiority by saying "they're only good because they give themselves a psychologically edge with the haka" or "they're only good because they steal talent from other countries". I think they call it Tall Poppy Syndrome. Anyone care to disagree?
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My understanding is that the first three teams from each group in this world cup will automatically qualify for the 2011 event. Assuming that is the case, I have a good plan for the next world cup. The plan would (marginally) reduce the number of games, but at the same time increase the number of teams involved and the number of meaningful games.
The first step would be qualification for those teams who do not qualify through the current world cup. No idea how this should be done in practise, but we would need the next best 12 teams. This would give a world cup of 24 nations.
The 12 teams who had to qualify are then split into 4 groups of 3 for the preliminary stage of the world cup proper (say during the first 2 weeks of the cup). This consists of round robin games, with the group winners each going into the final stages of the cup. These games should be, on the whole, competitive and meaninful, as a crack at the big nations would be the reward. There also shouldn't be too many landslide victories.
The four group winners from the preliminary stage then join the big boys into 4 groups of 4. Then we proceed as normal, with seedings for the 12 pre qualified teams being based on a combination of previous world cup results and current rankings.
At this stage, because there is only 4 teams per group, every team would have the same rest period etc to ensure the timetable is fair. There should be genuine competition for, at the very least, the second qualification spot, which should lead to some great games.
This should ensure many more competitive games, less one-sided encounters, more countries being involved, marginally less games, more fairness in scheduling. All good! I know England proposed a two cup tournie a while back, but the 'promotion' element of this plan would work better in my opinion.
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No it is not too long....the reason why it seems that way is that this year 2007 we have had too many World Cups of one sport or another ie. Twenty20, Rugby, Womens Football. The Administrators need to look at all Sports and spread them out over a 4 year cycle so there is always a World Cup Tournament every year. We can get too much sport and more and more people are supporters of all Sports so give them something to cheer about every year. What do we have in 2008? the Beijing Olympics, in 2009 Womens Cricket World Cup to name a few....WE NEED TO SPREAD THEM THROUGHOUT a 4 YEAR CYCLE and THROUGHOUT THAT YEAR THEY ARE ON.
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John Beattie was our hero.....sad children but the man is entitled to his viewpoint and he talks from experience. Only comment I'd make is the relative differences in the speed of the game these days, couple that with the apparent level of impact maybe you do need longer to recover.
As for the tourneybeing too long; no chance the "minnows" deserve to be there. They have produced some stunning games, much more fun than Eng V SA, Sco "B" v NZ, need I say more.
The haka is an integral part of the AB game,culture and heritage, respect it, is that not what we are supposed to do in the land of correctness we inhabit. It's great to watch (even better when it's an NZ ice hockey team)and if you think it gives them an advantage you're wrong the advantage is that they are miles better than the rest of us....think the word is jealousy
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You need rest between games. Rugby is a contact sport which involves mini car crashes throughout 80 mins. Certainly criket went on for too long and ended in a ridiculous situation in the final. Let the minnows enjoy their time in the sun as they deserve it. But cant wait til elimination time! Go Wallabies!
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re NZ steals Polynesian players to make their team good. Yeah right. Hey NZ should just have white faces, not immigrants right? What kind of thinking is that? hang on, didnt those white faces come from Scotland a few decades ago and settled in NZ? Such an ignorant and racist argument.
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FIFA is a mafia, and that is a remarkably well know fact.
But if there's something good they accomplished, then that's promoting the sport and making the World Cup the greatest sport event in the world.
Football is played everywhere and the sport is growing a lot nations that did not had a football tradition some years ago.
And this was done by taking the sport everywhere, giving every single country the chance of getting an international competition to measure themselves against the others, to learn and to develop their game. And at the same time the number of teams in the World Cup went from 16 to 24 and now to 32.
How can possibly be a good idea to limit the Rugby World Cup only to 10 teams?
I mean... it is a good idea if you want to avoid to be embarrased of losing to Tonga, Fiji, Los Pumas or maybe Georgia some years from now.
But if you want the sport to grow, to get a real challenge, then reducing the number of participants is pure rubbish.
Sorry for my english, it's not as good as I'd like.
From Argentina, still waiting for the IRB to get notice that Los Pumas exist and let them play a regular international competition.
Alejandro.
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Note: most antiNZ rugby feeling comes not from their excellence at the game, but from their self proclaimed role as the international rugby police (judge and jury where possible too). In NZ this year most whinging is about fielding second stringers (against NZ) so their team doesnt get a good workout! The fact that the ABs have played little rugby this year because they were withdrawn from super14 and NPC (significantly affecting those competitions is of course not mentioned). Last WC it was that drop goals were worth too many points! I wonder why?
The haka is performed because it gives NZ (and those other teams that perform their own) an advantage. It is tolerated by everyone else because of the spectacle it provides. It is part of the game now and should stay- just like the Welsh crowd singing or choruses of Swing Low when England are attacking. NZ crowds are very quiet in comparison - with less atmosphere as a result.
Oh and the home nations did get a team together (British and Irish Lions) and were soundly beaten by NZ- in much the same way as the individual nations will no doubt be dispatched at this WC.
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4 groups of 4 entrants is likely to mean smaller nations lose out.
3 groups of 7 would mean that the cup would probably go on longer than this one does - if it takes 5 teams about 3-4 weeks to get through a round-robin, 7 teams would take longer. I'd stress I wouldn't complain about that, as it's better than wall-to-wall wendyball, but it would be even more difficult to pack in.
The 1999 World Cup had 5 x 4 teams (rather than this 4 x 5 team format), and whilst the repechage system got some criticism, it still provides the best solution:
1) Of the five group winners, the 4 with highest points are seeded quarter-finalists.
2) Either the three highest scoring second-placed teams go through (might be unpopular depending on draw, but them are the breaks), or place all second-placed teams plus the best third placed team into a 6 team repechage draw to establish the 3 other quarter finalists (an 'extra game' for the poorest 'qualifiers' into the repechage, but a good incentive not to just settle for second (a la Scotland) and go as hard as you can for every point available.
On other points, keep the Haka (most fans I know love it), and the AB's 'stealing from the Pacific Islands' is rich when you consider that England have stolen Henry Paul, Mark van Gisbergen, Matt Stevens, Mike Cattand are expectantly waiting for the likes of Riki Flutey to qualify (and I won't even start to discuss the England cricket team, none of whom seem English (Pietersen, Strauss, Jones, Jones, etc)), Scotland almost cornered the market with the Kilted Kiwis, and Wales have used Howarth, Sinkinson, Cockbain and Parker in recent times.
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It's up to the individual as to how they respond to the haka; the point is that it is a challenge. If you disrespect it, the All Blacks seem to have a habit of thrashing you physically as well as statistically! The fact is, until you can match them over 80 mins, it doesn't much matter what you think about the preceding 2.
As for length, you only need to look at the number of injuries to see that the rest times can't be shortened. Opinions or even experience counts for nothing: less rest = pain. Reducing the entrants is ludicrous. If there are teams out there that want to play, preventing them devalues the competition. That just leaves scheduling and formatting. You'd think they can get the scheduling right, but don't bet your bottom dollar. As for formatting, it depends what you want to achieve. A second groups stage in place of at least the QF's and possibly the SF's would reduce the gaps between games, but would lengthen the competition. This format might also be more conducive to five groups of 4: 10 teams would go through to the second round, leading to 2 groups of 5. That might just bout be shorter overall and have less dead space... (?)
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PS, I've lived in England for 17 years, and can't say I've ever seen any morris dancing, either on TV or 'in person.' I can't help feeling that there is a better response, say a volley from 15 longbows... don't know what the crowd in the facing stand would think of it :S but the idea is to present an aggressive stance, not to make yourselves look like a bunch of pansies!
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Firstly, if we generally think that four or five days is not enough recovery time between two games of rugby, why do all the teams bar those in the 6- or tri- nations have to have 4-day turnarounds during the group stage? You would think if Romania could do it the All Blacks, English, and Wallabies ought to be able to.
Secondly, I am very much in favour of a second-tier parallel knockout stage for the teams who've come third and fourth in their respective groups. So far this World Cup the best games have been the ones where the 'minnows' get their heads up and play - we are unlikely to see anything else that good until the semis.
The tournament is about to slow down because there will be so many fewer games played when teams go home. If the volume of rugby we've seen could be kept up- a game or two every couple of days- I could keep watching it for ages.
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Also, try telling the Portuguese that the ABs shouldn't do the haka before games - it was something they were desperately looking forward to facing.
The best 'response' to the haka is to do something of yours at the same time. My favourite moment of the last world cup was watching two pacific island nations doing the pre-match war dances right into each others' faces. That was cool.
I don't think you have to respect the haka - but you might inspire the ire of the ABs on the field if you don't (c.f. the first 20 mins of NZvItaly).
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The Six nations goes on for six or seven weeks. Five games with a break one weekend. Starts Feb. 2 and finishes March 15, 2008.
So as a rugby fan and SN man I'm used to long tournaments played over weekends and that's what the World Cup basically is now.
I think the more fair weathered Sports fans might find it too long or those who try to overhype it or indeed for the journalists stuck in France for 7 weeks.
I'm cool with it.
Comparisons to the World Cup for football are not relevant.
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Typical nothern hemisphereric comentary. Thats all I can say. The world cup aint too long, Players need to be rested for their next game. Its the only chance these players have every four years to strive to win the Webb Ellis Cup for their country.
And in regards to the haka mate, I think its about time, the scottish started wearing kilts on the ground with wooden clubs or even steel baldes raised above your heads waived at the AB's during the haka. Its heritage mate, 100% pure NZ style...or maybe even have one of your players dressed up as William Wallace leading the scots onto the field..................do you think that would intimidate the AB's?..
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There is clearly a mix of opinion on this issue so why not replace the world cup with a champions league style tournament.
that way both teams get to see thier country at home!
Also let the minnows as it is put play in a eufa style tournament with the prospect of getting the big guns next year. or every two years.
Either way who cares you get too see rugby and that is what it is all about. The rest between games is farcical and inconsistent.
If that is not an option then I am sure there is a way of arranging the games so there is say 4 days between matches, squad play will be more important and it may test some of the managers a little more. Ok so games may be played on a wednesday night ce la vie. looking at some of the crowds it aint going to make it any worse, oh of course the organisers cant overcharge for the tickets.... what a shame!
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Some northern and southern hemisphere supporters need to untie the knots in their panties. A bit of banter is ok, but don't take it too seriously.
I'm English, and have grown up watching and playing rugby. Unfortunately can't remember the tournament New Zealand won (due to being 5 years old), but have very vivid memories from 1991-2003. Hastings misses in front of the posts, England reach the final, Andrew drops a goal, Lomu destroys teams, Chester Williams, Young Jonny Wilkinson, France stun AB's then lose to Aus in the final, Robinson's try against the Welsh, Wilkinson's drop goal to win etc.
As you probably guessed I am an england supporter, but not to the extent to over-hype my own chances or belittle the teams or supporters from any other country. I've gone into each world cup expecting to see the AB's win, or at least get to the final. Only in 2003 was my attitude slightly different where I stronly believed from before the tournament that England could do it, but even then I was thankful we didn't have to play the AB's.
But the fact that the Blacks have failed to win in 20 years is a testament to the greatness of the game, the variety, the unpredictability of the sport and the tournament. Rather than criticising eachother and getting mildly (or very - post number 8) abbusive and offensive, we should just enjoy the spectacle.
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Why not make the world cup 1 day long and have the team ranked first in the world play the team ranked second in the world. You wouldnt have to worry about recovery times and certainly if New Zealand, Tonga, Fiji or Samoa were ranked first or second then you'd only have to put up with a 'silly' dance once.
You'd have to charge a decent amount for the tickets, but its about rugby - not about money..
Alternatively you could actually think before you and your Scottish mates put fingers to keyboard. Duh!
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I think the world cup organisation of matches have been well thought out. All the big matches have been played on a Fri, Sat or Sun. The not so big matches have been played Tue-Thu when viewers have probably less time to watch. The length of the world cup is compensated by being able to see the big games at the weekend. Anyway who's gonna complain about missing Romania vs Portugal? Players get more recovery time too so you get more of a chance of seeing the best players in action.
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One of the best parts of the World Cup is to see so called 'premier' teams being put on the rack by a minnow. (as a Welshman this particularly applies when watching an England game in my local english pub. Keep the competition as it is, (if it aint broke, don't fix it)
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In many ways, the World Cup is probably too long. The trouble is that, as some have pointed out, the physical demands of the game mean that its difficult to play the games much closer together than they are and maintain any kind of quality, so the only realistic way to shorten it would be to reduce the number of games. Then you'd get a quicker tournament but no stage for the minnows to play on. How then do you hope to develop the game in the world outside the big nations? I'm sure Namibia and Georgia, for example, greatly enjoyed their 80 minutes in the sun against Ireland, and that's a big incentive to any players they are trying to develop.
So you have a problem with a tournament that keeps the attention of the world outside the hardcore support (surely that's an aim of the WC?) and that has to be weighed against keeping the structure and the global aspect, as well as player safety and quality of performance. Tricky one. I think it probably has to stay as it is. In any event, this way does ensure that most of the big games fall on weekends, which helps people to enjoy them with a few beers. Cheers.
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World cup is not too long and the plans for cutting the number of teams in the tournament is shocking. Yes whilst the "minnows" do lose to some of the bigger teams they probably love doing it. How do you reckon portugal feel they scored more points against the ABs than Scotland and Italy put together. Personally id ADD 4 more teams to the tournament the have 4 pools of 6 then you can actually get all the gameas played in the same time frame and you will increase the international base for the tournament and allow teams like Russia and Portugal to come through.
Also I'd love to see a plate competition played alongside the main cup as the minnowshave produced the best matches so far i.e. Fiji Japan, Samoa Tonga its all great to watch and great for the sport
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This is another meaningless debate. Firstly, I agree with many that the recovery time required for rugby is a lot longer than football and especially cricket.
Secondly, the Haka should stay because of tradition and history. For those who argue that it gives the All Blacks psychological advantage, the fundamental question is 'does it really?'. Perhaps if they only do it at the Final, yes. But if they do this all the time, then let's face it, the novelty wears off very quickly and after a while it's nothing more than a tourist attraction.
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the RWC isn't too long - maybe not long enough! Its great seeing rugby on the telly, even if it is poked away on ITV4 most of the time. Better than wall to wall football.
Someone mentioned that cricket only game as uncompetetive as rugby for the winners of the WC. Well, how about football? for all the teams that qualify for the finals, there are only ever going to be 4-5 teams likely to win it!
Keep the minnows in the RWC I say - most of the matches they have competed in have been entertaining, and their enthusiasm and joy at playing the game infectious. No doubt, once we get to the quarters, the rugby will turn dour and the outcome be detirmined by best defences, with all playing scared to lose, rather than playing to win and entertain.
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Any/all of the ideas below should improve the spectacle and make time pass faster:
1) Sort out scrummaging - crooked feeds, driving before the feed, deliberate wheeling, collapsing... it's very hard for one referee to see what's going on in there but the spectacle is ruined. Perhaps more importantly, the established teams are better at this than the "minnows".
2) Automatic sin bin for any player committing two penalty or free kick offences. Again, the top teams are more likely to do this and we all want to see positive rugby.
3) A handicap system would be controversial and possibly hard to implement, but wouldn't it make the mismatches more interesting?
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The Haka should be scraped and the world cup is too long??? I think you should go and watch Darts. There are no intimidating war dances and the tournaments are stretched out over a week of pinting.
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Is the world cup too long? No, though the opening ceremony did go on a bit and I didn't really understand it.
And why would we want to do away with the Haka? If that doesn't inspire the opposing team to take the game to the Kiwis then nothing will. True, teams thus far haven't been able to test the ABs but neither have they disgraced themselves either; Portugal in particular, to my mind, has much to be proud of.
More importantly, none of the other SH sides seem overly concerned and George Gregan's '..four more years..' comment (excellent camera work that) last time around was priceless.
Finally, England (of which I am a supporter) weren't phased in the SH warm-ups in 2003. Now, we seem to have become somewhat more sensitive. My advice would be to complain about the Haka when we're winning as to do it now looks churlish.
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How short is your memory Mr. Beattie? Shame on you for disparaging the game that gave you a living, and especially for your comments re Scotland. Are you suggesting we just pick two finalists and play that? I hope you thought England's drubbing by South Africa was meaningless as well? Maybe controversial comments, but you don't seem to offer a solution! I'm an ex-professional footballer who loves all rugby, including the Haka. Clearly your mindset has changed since taking the 主播大秀's shilling.
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Yawn no this again, What is it with NH blogs, you are at the worlds biggest Rugby event and all you can come up with is Haka Meaningless blah blah World cup to long. Oh boo Hoo is working for the 主播大秀 that tough?. Have you John had a look at what the headline is above your crying? World Cup Blog,Behind the scenes at Rugbys Tour de France. Couldn鈥檛 you have come up with something original? Or did you wake up and see that VC had over 700 replies to his dribble and you and your fellow bloggers have a bet to see how can have the most replies.
What problem do you have with the Haka John?or do you have a problem that you were never good enough to beat Them? So what if NZ are proud of their Heritage, Are you as a Scot not proud of yours?
If the RWC is to long for you. Come home I鈥檓 sure there are many people more than happy to take your place there.
If you think the games are meaningless maybe your right, Maybe we should just let Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and England/France play in it. Or just let who ever are in the Top 4 rankings at the time play in it. That way we wouldn鈥檛 have to put up meaningless games like Scotland v NZ. Or any of the Scottish games.The Scottish people must be so proud with their team rolling over before a ball being kicked
I don鈥檛 know if there is any proof in the rumour that should Scotland win the game against Italy Frank will be resting his top 15 players in the quarter final game so they will be fresh for the Semis
If we in the NH put as much time in training and developing the skills need to beat the SH teams as we do moaning about other countries we would be a lot better
Dear 主播大秀 it seems that your so called rugby reporters are having a great deal of trouble finding any news at the WRC, and all they seem to be able to do is bring up the same old news. You have my email address and I will work for half the pay to be at the Rugby WORLD CUP.
News I will try to find out is 鈥淲hy can teams with small populations be better at the sport. Why do the Smaller Countries have so much more pride in playing the sport?
Why do some nations roll over before playing a test Match?
How Nations that have been given a small amount of funding by the IRB have been able to come along in leaps and bounds. Should they get more funding?
How does a country with only 800 plus senior players push a nation ranked 6th
How can a country like Tonga push South Africa so close?
To name but a few
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The reason it isn't too long is because it's still entertaining (unlike the cricket world cup which was ridiculously dull). Less isn't always more.
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Gutless, pathetic whinging scotish reaction to being completely demolished by New Zealand.
The only reason the game was meaningless was because Scotland put out a weak tema who were only intent on stopping the Kiwis from scoring. They created nothing and scored nothing. Its teams like Scotland that make the world cup boring.
The so called minnows have provided some decent close matches and fine rugby, think of Japan v Fiji, or Geogia v Ireland, Canada v Wales in the 1st half.
as for opposing the haka that again is to me almost racist, its a great rugby tradition and any decent rugby fan understands and respects it.
shameful article showing ignorance and typical narrow vision based on a horrible nationalistic viewpoint. I support England but I love rugby and watching other teams play, other styles etc.
Scotland are dull
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It seems only football is allowed to have a long world cup. Rugby needs as much exposure in order for it to compete with football on all levels. Why the rediculous question?
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What I don't get is why people here consider Argentina a "smaller" team.
Helloooo? This is a team ranked higher than ANY of the 6 Nations??? A team that's beaten France once and Ireland twice this year?
I'm no big fan of theirs, but they are by no means a small team. They certainly have more of a place in this world cup than Scotland or Ireland do.
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re. tonga, samoa, agentina. Of course if these great southern hemisphere countries were included in southern hemisphere comps then the rest of the world would know how good they are. It's funny how they are being lauded as the southern hemisphere's finest when the sanzar countries treat them with contempt.
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Come on people! This guy probably gets paid per comment he receives on his article, so he writes a shoddy one with no arguement knowing that he'll get people raging over it = lots of comments = lots of money.
It's rubbish journalism so why humour him with a response?
I do realise the irony that in order to slag him off I put another couple of pennies in his pot.
If you want a proper discussion go to the message boards rather than responding to pointless artilces.....
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Not much we can do about length of tournament now that the smaller teams are competing in this one. We need to build them up further and prepare them for the next one in 4 years (including playing some decent sides in between). If we reduce numbers it will just set back teams like Georgia and Namibia. Then in 2011, we actually might see some real upsets.
What is wrong with the people who have now 'lost respect' for the Scots. I was really disppointed to see us not put out a 1st team, but then FH was in a no-win situation with the Italy (crucial to Scot)game so soon after. Put a 1st team out, get injuries and tried, lose to Italy in a standard 'plucky losers' scenario. Or right off the NZ game which was irrelevant as far as Scotland are concerned (not great attitude but true as well), then concentrate on the match that matters and give us a chance to proceed. No much option.
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Welcome to the wold of Springboks! Viva South Africa!
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Not much we can do about length of tournament now that the smaller teams are competing in this one. We need to build them up further and prepare them for the next one in 4 years (including playing some decent sides in between). If we reduce numbers it will just set back teams like Georgia and Namibia. Then in 2011, we actually might see some real upsets.
What is wrong with the people who have now 'lost respect' for the Scots. I was really disppointed to see us not put out a 1st team, but then FH was in a no-win situation with the Italy (crucial to Scot)game so soon after. Put a 1st team out, get injuries and tried, lose to Italy in a standard 'plucky losers' scenario. Or right off the NZ game which was irrelevant as far as Scotland are concerned (not great attitude but true as well), then concentrate on the match that matters and give us a chance to proceed. No much option.
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Come on Beattie, to equate soccer with rugby union is plain ludicrous as the game is not the same so recovery times are clearly different.
And the only reason Sco v NZ was meaningless is because Scotland made it so by plainly picking a second string team and not pressing for a win.
Why don't you extend your holiday and ot bother coming back for the final ? Perhaps you can catch the latest MLS game over there on TV instead ???
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If you think its too long, how would you shorten it? Fewer teams? But haven't the 'second tier' nations performed better this time? A tighter schedule? Wouldn't that lead to more top players missing games and a lessening of quality?
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Just like to point out that for all major nations excepting the hosts, the football world cup is actually two years long including the qualification phase.
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If you think its too long, how would you shorten it? Fewer teams? But haven't the 'second tier' nations performed better this time? A tighter schedule? Wouldn't that lead to more top players missing games and a lessening of quality?
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Comical reaction to the Scotland vs New Zealand situation from some quarters.
All coaches play the team to fit the situation dealt and given the circumstances that Scotland are in with their playing abilities and the timing of the matches the realistic scenario was that taken.
Anyone with half a brain after the last Six nations game with Italy could see what was going to happen. Get off your idealistic high horse, this is no longer an amateur game and the amateur ethic no longer applies, however unfortunate that is.
As to the length of the tournament, its the time between games that is at issue. Players do need time to recover.
Why not have a more meaningful qualification? Make all the teams play in that competition over a couple of years between tournaments with an advantageous draw being the benefit for the group winners, difficult draws for those running up and the plate competition for third and fourth, running that competition at the same time (or as a warm up) for the main tournament.
The IRB has got to stop paying lip service to development and allowing the major nations to "tour" and play each other in Cash-Cow annual drudge matches.
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There's nothing wrong with the current format. To expect the RWC to work like the FIFA World Cup ignores the fact that elite rugby players can only play one match per week. If we had a parallel 'World Shield' tournament it would be ignored by the mainstream media. Does anybody think ITV or the 主播大秀 would broadcast a tournament where the favourites are Georgia, Japan, Namibia and Portugal?
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Much better than dubious hand movements during the Haka would be a traditionally Scottish response, calling upon our many years of heritage and nobility; I am thinking here of wheeling on the Krankies for a quick rendition of "Oh ye canna' shove yer granny off the bus" or perhaps "If it wasna' for yer wellies, wher wud ye be ?"
Perfect way to psyche out Messrs McCaw, Collins et al
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Ohh another Troll blog thats going to get hundereds of comments.
Don't rise to it.
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I'm with you Peter (no 87). I'm definitely not responding to this blog!
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Of course it is not too long.
For us poor souls have have to work during the week, big games on days other than weekends would be a nightmare.
For those unfortunate to have to follow the WC professionally, and perhaps feel that they have too much time to kill, in various parts of France*- well its a hard life, innit?
* - including le Murrayfield and le Stade de Millenium,
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reading anote earlier someone mentioned Argentina as a small rugby nation.For Christs sake mate what are you on.Are you seriously saying that Wales and Scotland are bigger than Argentina.No way.No SH side conisder Wales or Scotland to be a serious contest anymore.It is merely a warm up match.Argentina on the other hand, we that is pure rugby at its hardest.Wales and Scotland not even close.Remember just because you have along history in rugby means shit, it's the present what matters.Wales and Scotland and Ireland to an extent have merely enjoyed periods of enlightenment.But for the most part are pretty ordinary in terms of world rugby significance.
For these 3 nations the world cup is all about reaching the 1/4 finals-MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
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Do whatever you wish towards the haka. Just look back in history to see the sides the mocked or ignored it...
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Please don't dis the Haka. It was one of the reasons I paid 拢85 to go to Murrayfield on Sunday. I've always wanted to see it live.
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Great heavens above! Even if the World Cup isn't too long, the list of comments on this blog certainly is. Which is why I am adding my tuppence.
If the RWC is too long then there might be an argument for having a pre-tournament for the minnows with the top four getting into the finals. It seems that the NZRFU and the IRB are now trying to push things in that direction anyway, since New Zealand is apparently not big enough to accommodate more than 16 teams!? Sad but true...
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Im not going to respond to this blog either.........
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In response to brownie (comment 77)
"as for opposing the Hakka that again is to me almost racist, its a great rugby tradition and any decent rugby fan understands and respects it."
What utter rot. The original Hakka may have been about tradition, but it has now been updated. It is a more violent and aggressive chant, and has nothing to do with tradition. It is used like a weapon to gain a psychological advantage.
The original Hakka was used as a challenge, a gauntlet thrown down. New Zealand is being shown an unfair bias by not allowing anyone to respond to it. And you have to ask yourself, do they really need any other help? They are without doubt the finest rugby playing nation on earth. They have the finest stand-off in world rugby in Dan Carter, the finest flanker in Richie McCaw and strength in depth to be able to field a second-string XV that would be able to put almost any other team on earth to the sword.
"They created nothing and scored nothing. Its teams like Scotland that make the world cup boring." Right. Cast your mind back to the England vs. South Africa game. They created nothing and scored nothing. They didn't deserve to. For Brian Ashton to come out before the tournament and say they might still spring a surprise...I'm still trying to figure out who he was trying to kid. England couldn't even play negative rugby well. They try to insist time and time again that they are the equal of their Southern Hemisphere counterparts, but the truth is they flatter to deceive. They are weak in all areas of the game, have no genuine game breakers and rely too heavily on an ageing pack. They are trying to survive on past glories, and are frankly an embarrassment.
Scotland employed tactics which, while they may have been deplored by all true Scottish rugby fans (and I count myself among that number), were entirely understandable. They put in a strong defensive display which will surely give them heart against a team they have stuttered and stumbled to contain in recent years. They looked more composed and assured when beating both Portugal and Romania than Italy did. They have the advantage of having rested key players for such a big match, and have every chance of reaching the quarter finals. Which is as far as they, Wales, England and France are likely to get. It will take a miracle of Jesuit proportions to see Ireland into the knock-out stages.
I am struggling to see beyond an all Southern Hemisphere final, and most likely an all Southern Hemisphere semi-final. I have enjoyed, for the most part, the rugby that has been on display in this world cup. It is refreshing to see how some sides have come on in leaps and bounds in recent years (I'm thinking of Georgia and Tonga in particular). This tournament can only be beneficial for world rugby, as long as the funds generated are re-invested at the grass roots levels of the sport in the emerging nations, and the more established nations as well.
And brownie, if Scotland are dull, England are a greyer shade of beige. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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....and the point of your article is.....? The RWC is not going to be too long for the 主播大秀 Nations. Theirs should be finishing up pretty soon. Did you mention the haka again to kiwi bait by any chance...?
Answer me one thing - If the haka is just a 'song and dance' then why are you all getting so upset about it. Your fear and ignorance is only giving it more power. So keep writing about it and it will become more powerful.
The only 'song and dance' that I can see is from you lot making such a fuss about our ritual calling of the spirits ... it's enough to give you nightmares ( if Jerry Collins doesn't do that already)
I agree about the Scotland game - it was as grey as both teams shirts..it'll be good to be in black again.
Go Blacks - Kia kaha
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Great heavens above! Even if the World Cup isn't too long, the list of comments on this blog certainly is. Which is why I am adding my tuppence. ;-)
If the RWC is too long then there might be an argument for having a pre-tournament for the minnows with the top four getting into the finals. It seems that the NZRFU and the IRB are now trying to push things in that direction anyway, since New Zealand is apparently not big enough to accommodate more than 16 teams!? (The Kiwis might have mentioned this when they were bidding for RWC 2011, don't you think?!)
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Im not going to respond to this blog either.........and dont get the Kiwis going on the Haka again - there is a real sense of humour failure out there
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i cannot believe that people are talking about world cup and world shield. Half the fun of watching this tournement comes from the possibility of the minnows turning over the greats, such as Tonga nearly turning the Springboks over. As for the players themselves, not only would they lose the occasion where they can say they have played amongst the best they would lose a huge scope for improvement which they can only gain by punching above their weight and therefor the divide could only get wider.
in my mind i can only think this would bring nothing but harm to the tournement and something special would be lost from the web ellis trophy.
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In response to brownie (comment 77)
"as for opposing the Hakka that again is to me almost racist, its a great rugby tradition and any decent rugby fan understands and respects it."
What utter rot. The original Hakka may have been about tradition, but it has now been updated. It is a more violent and aggressive chant, and has nothing to do with tradition. It is used like a weapon to gain a psychological advantage.
The original Hakka was used as a challenge, a gauntlet thrown down. New Zealand is being shown an unfair bias by not allowing anyone to respond to it. And you have to ask yourself, do they really need any other help? They are without doubt the finest rugby playing nation on earth. They have the finest stand-off in world rugby in Dan Carter, the finest flanker in Richie McCaw and strength in depth to be able to field a second-string XV that would be able to put almost any other team on earth to the sword.
"They created nothing and scored nothing. Its teams like Scotland that make the world cup boring." Right. Cast your mind back to the England vs. South Africa game. They created nothing and scored nothing. They didn't deserve to. For Brian Ashton to come out before the tournament and say they might still spring a surprise...I'm still trying to figure out who he was trying to kid. England couldn't even play negative rugby well. They try to insist time and time again that they are the equal of their Southern Hemisphere counterparts, but the truth is they flatter to deceive. They are weak in all areas of the game, have no genuine game breakers and rely too heavily on an ageing pack. They are trying to survive on past glories, and are frankly an embarrassment.
Scotland employed tactics which, while they may have been deplored by all true Scottish rugby fans (and I count myself among that number), were entirely understandable. They put in a strong defensive display which will surely give them heart against a team they have stuttered and stumbled to contain in recent years. They looked more composed and assured when beating both Portugal and Romania than Italy did. They have the advantage of having rested key players for such a big match, and have every chance of reaching the quarter finals. Which is as far as they, Wales, England and France are likely to get. It will take a miracle of Jesuit proportions to see Ireland into the knock-out stages.
I am struggling to see beyond an all Southern Hemisphere final, and most likely an all Southern Hemisphere semi-final. I have enjoyed, for the most part, the rugby that has been on display in this world cup. It is refreshing to see how some sides have come on in leaps and bounds in recent years (I'm thinking of Georgia and Tonga in particular). This tournament can only be beneficial for world rugby, as long as the funds generated are re-invested at the grass roots levels of the sport in the emerging nations, and the more established nations as well.
And brownie, if Scotland are dull, England are a greyer shade of beige. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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I think john beattie can take his comments about the hakka and shove them right into the same place that scotland's aspirations of ever winning a world cup are currently residing.
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Good grief just keep the Hakka!! NZ are not the only ones that do it either, what about Tonga & Samoa?? South Africa used to their own war dance before the games back in the days, there was even talk about them doing again!
Dont reduce the RWC teams if anything we should have more teams playing.
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Good grief just keep the Hakka!! NZ are not the only ones that do it either, what about Tonga & Samoa?? South Africa used to their own war dance before the games back in the days, there was even talk about them doing again!
Dont reduce the RWC teams if anything we should have more teams playing.
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It will be a tragedy if the number of teams in the world cup are reduced in 2011. The 'minnows' have been hugely entertaining and will only improve if exposed to the 'big' teams.
My suggestions it to keep the format (and length of the RWC) the same but let the four 3rd place teams in each group compete in a 'plate' semi final and final. These can be played midweek with the quarters/semi/ final on the weekends. This would give 3 more quality games and maintain interest during the week. It also gives the 'minnows' more to play for in the group stages, particularly if they lose a match early on.
If this was done at this world cup the matches would potentially involve Tonga (I'm an opitimistic Englisgh supporter), Fiji, Italy, and Ireland, all teams that are well worth watching (at least when Ireland are playing well!)
I also think a proper qualification tournament 12 months in advance would be a good idea to whet the appetite and give all teams that qualify ample time to prepare.
My other worry for 2011 is whether the NZ public embrace the matches that don't involve NZ in the same way the French have done? Empty stadia would be another tragedy - which wouldn't happen if Japan got the next RWC!
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Too Long ?? No, Probably the most entertaining world cup so far and would have been had the 'minnows' managed to succeed in causing the major upsets.So if you think it's too long tune in from the semi's !!
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I dont want to be controversial or anything but the Haka is really rubbish.
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Not sure about the rest of you but watched the so called Minnows USA v Samoa last night and it is games like that which makes the world cup. Watching the USA fight to the finish, just like Japan in the earlier match, the players and supporters loved it and so do I. The so called Minnows have to stay in the World Cup and if New Zealand say they cannot accomadate 20 teams then simple New Zealand does not get the World Cup.
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I've just had a thought. the problem with the world cup is not the smaller teams, all of whom have after all produced one game at least which kept them within spitting distance of one of the bigger nations, rather it's the dominant nations.
If scotland, who have been a developed rugby nation virtually for ever, cannot hope to beat the all blacks, and wales(i am welsh) also have no chance of beating these teams, and get incredibly excited by even drawing with them occasionally, then why not just eliminate the big teams.
Lose new zealand, australia and south africa of course, and france if they become at all impervious, and then we can battle it out among ourselves in a properly open tournament.
Given the fact that the competitors in any sporting contest are an arbitrary collection based on a myriad of cultural and economic factors, dropping these teams would not devalue anything. the interest that would be engendered is the only thing that matters at the end of the day anyway.
And when the all blacks, the wallabies and the springboks saw how successful the competition would be they'd be clamouring for a place in it and importing british coaching and administration teams to ensure that despite their tragically enormous resources they could ensure that they lack the ability to trounce a team of, for example, not very fit shoe salesmen.
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The Rugby World cup last for years we just don't know about it until we get down to the last two months. Whats all that qualifcation rounds for. Who cares about time. Rugby is on the TV. National or regional so whats the difference. Love the sport and enjoy it.
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If this is the only way Georgia, Romania, Canada and good lord Argentina can get real competitive rugby against "better" teaams then it is not too long.
If they got competitive rugby against higher rank sides (and I don't mean one off friendlies) year in and year out OK then maybe the WC would be too long..........
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I've just had a thought. the problem with the world cup is not the smaller teams, all of whom have after all produced one game at least which kept them within spitting distance of one of the bigger nations, rather it's the dominant nations.
If scotland, who have been a developed rugby nation virtually for ever, cannot hope to beat the all blacks, and wales(i am welsh) also have no chance of beating these teams, and get incredibly excited by even drawing with them occasionally, then why not just eliminate the big teams.
Lose new zealand, australia and south africa of course, and france if they become at all impervious, and then we can battle it out among ourselves in a properly open tournament.
Given the fact that the competitors in any sporting contest are an arbitrary collection based on a myriad of cultural and economic factors, dropping these teams would not devalue anything. the interest that would be engendered is the only thing that matters at the end of the day anyway.
And when the all blacks, the wallabies and the springboks saw how successful the competition would be they'd be clamouring for a place in it and importing british coaching and administration teams to ensure that despite their tragically enormous resources they could ensure that they lack the ability to trounce a team of, for example, not very fit shoe salesmen.
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No it's a good size. But if we need to cull some teams for the next one, how about getting rid of those that don't deserve to be there on merit? ie England and Ireland. The Welsh haven't done much, but have performed expected.
I thought the Scots were doing ok, but they should be chucked out completely following their game last weekend. They were woefully incompetent and the ref should have been giving NZ freekicks instead of scrums as their front row is clearly not up to international standard. At least Portugal competed and even scored some points. Scotland were gutless, unimaginative surrender monkeys. What's the point of qualifying for the knockout stages when you've already said there's no way you can beat the ABs to claim the title?
Feilding a 2nd-string in the test silly-season is one thing, but to do it in the middle of the crown jewel of international rugby is grounds for disqualification for bringing the game into disrepute.
Boo, Scotland. Boo hiss!!! You're a disgrace.
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The IRB want to maybe change it from 20 to 16,I dont think NZ anywhere have ever said that they couldn't handle 20 teams. but on here people seem to think thay have said it. All these blogs seem to do is blame NZ for this blame NZ for that. NZ are to good thats not fair, the Scottish are rubbish....Its NZ's Fault,The Welsh are rubbish.....the English are Rubbish NH rugby is Rubbish.....Its NZ's fault, The IRB may choose to have only 16 teams, Its NZ's fault Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Its always someone else's fault isnt it never your own.
NZ have been the team to beat ever since well the UK invented the game,The same as Australia have been the team to beat in Cricket and League since the UK invented the game,The same as Brazil have been the team to beat in Football since the UK invented the game,The same as Fiji and NZ have been the teams to beat in 7's since the UK invented it, Oh hang on I see a pattern forming here I just cant seem to put my finger on it Hmmmmmm
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For those saying how much more demanding rugby is compared to football; what is your basis for this point? I have played both to a high level and feel that both are equally demanding, in different ways; there is no reason why rugby players shouldn't be fit enough to play a game every 5 or 6 games. Scheduling should (if correctly orchestrated) allow for each team to have 5 days between matches, I still cannot understand why one day we have 3 matches, and then we go six days with nothing to watch. Sort it out. It'll take 3 weeks to complete the knock-out rounds. I suppose there is a good side to this...if someone broke their arm in their first group match, they'd be fully fit again to play in the final.
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Too long, never, we want to watch the best players perform and this is the stage the players want to be on and without sufficent rest that wouldnt happen, agreed the 'minnows' have a tough programe, but when all said and done its the big powers that will prevail regardless so give the players every chance to perform.
The haka, its a great spectical but by the time its performed the 30 players on the pitch are ready to go, fired up, in the zone (call it what you will) so let the opposing side deal with it in any way they see fit and stop complaining of disrespect, as at the end of the day the actions of throat slitting isn't so respectful is it?
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AROUND AND AROUND we go, the two authors messrs Beattie and Cotter,, with whom i share a birthday and a surname ,have really opened up a can of worms.Nice sense of humour !!!
POSTED previously about not being concerned about the haka it is what it is .Take it at face value and move on .
NO john wc not too long, that debate about change at least is valid. IF the debate centres around the developement of union as a world sport .At least that is if i remember rightly,one of the tenets of wrc .World in union etc.
As regards to some of the drivel about NH/SH get a life most of these comments belong to soccer mags.
Rivalry and banter are one thing, half of this belongs in a kids play ground.
NO ONE has a right to win hard yards then who knows
The game is much more important mind you winning is NICE. Lecture over.XX
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The sporting braggards of the SH (post 118) are at it again with their daily chip on shoulder jibe about the UK inventing sports and then being overtaken by SH nations.
The point is you are blessed with decent weather in which to encourage your young to participate at sport in their early stages. This is not an excuse it's a FACT. You try and teach a five year old the basics of any sport whilst standing them in horizontal rain in temperatures barely above freezing and you'll soon witness them switch off and never come back to it. Teach them instead in the glorious weather that you get nearly all year, and of course they'll only want to play more and more and more. I expect to get a reply of "whingeing Poms, blah, blah, blah" but then that's the standard reply isn't it?
Another fact is that sport - until we get towards the absolute pinnnacle - is treated more as a recreation in this part of the world and not as some lunatic obsession to which we down tools and the whole country comes to a standstill for even the most minor level. We mainly work for a living, then play sport. You play sport for a living and then seem to spend the rest of your time criticising the UK and its people (esp England) for everything we do. (I'll probably get accused of being an arrogant Englishman, but at least I accept it's not ENG's God-given right to win at every RWC.)
So what, we can't play rugby as well as you. If you want to mock our traditions of devising sports you should bear in mind that at least our ideas have been well-received ones. You lot go and devise a sport and we'll see if it turns into a world game...No, didn't expect so!!!
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Only whiners whine about the haka. If NZ were minnows, there would be no talk about the haka.
Only loosers complain coz there is no other way of beating NZ...........hahahaha
Go BLACKIES
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world cup is a good length
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world cup is a good length
I have waited ages for this and I am loving it and especially with some of the great minnow performances.
This isnt a cruisy soccer game its Rugby and its tough and the players need time to recover.I wish there were 30 teams and it was longer
Go the ABs
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The WC is ok its not too long its just the NH teams that are no good. If they could play a game and attack the line instead of just kicking it down field there would be more to watch. May be if the counties up North had more inclusive cultures they would have better sports teams and not the unrest at home with bombings and riots. While NZ is not prefect at least the people can get on together whatever skin colour they have unlike the NH. If you move to NZ and make an effort to fit in you are a kiwi it鈥檚 all about attitude of making things happen rather than complaining about every one else.
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The WC is ok its not too long its just the NH teams that are no good. If they could play a game and attack the line instead of just kicking it down field there would be more to watch. May be if the counties up North had more inclusive cultures they would have better sports teams and not the unrest at home with bombings and riots. While NZ is not prefect at least the people can get on together whatever skin colour they have unlike the NH. If you move to NZ and make an effort to fit in you are a kiwi it鈥檚 all about attitude of making things happen rather than complaining about every one else.
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John Beattie. I think the world cup goes for a perfectly adequate length of time. What is too long is your boring & continuos "bashing" of the All Blacks & their haka. You do this because you are either jealous that your team isn't the best in the world and/or you simply don't understand what a haka means. It certainly stirs my blood & a very arrogant crowd singing "swing low, swing chariot" (which isn't even an english song) lacks the spirtual significance of the haka & therefore does not compare. Stick to a Rugby Union editorial & lay off the cultural intolerance.
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Look it is not about the ABs stealing PI players. It is about the fact that NZers continually moan about the IRB not helping the PI nations but never mention that if the PI players played for their hone country just think of strong they would be. Just think of Samoa Brunce Jones etc etc. Indeed I heard Jones being interview and he was going on anbd on about the IRB not supporting Samoa...gee where did his lay his rugby. It is all so two faced.
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I think Jeremy(post 129) is a little confused. Michael Jones and Frank Bunce were both born and bred in New Zealand and as All Blacks were playing for their own country.
When discussing matters involving Pacific Islanders it is important to understand how they think and their values. A person of Island background will describe himself by his ethnic background before his nationality as ethnicity is important in their culture, Europeans tend to do the reverse. Similarly they have strong links back to the Islands even though they may have been born and bred in another country. Michael Jones in his efforts to further promote rugby
in Samoa is typical of many Islanders.
Islanders who are eligible to play for both the All Blacks or Samoa/Tonga will invariably pick the All Blacks because "we want to play for the best"
I find efforts to denigrate Jones and Bunce quite sad. Jones in particular has put a lot into pushing the cause of Island rugby, much of which has been at his own expense
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The rugby world cup IS much too long. It's hilarious to hear people saying "We can't play more than one game a week". Why not?
Are these the same people who, in rugby clubs up and down England every Saturday, berate "namby pamby" footballers, while singing songs about mutual masturbation with their trousers round their ankles?
Get two games played each week, you limp-wristed lightweights.
Oh, and have England really been so bad because "the balls are too new"? Ridiculous!
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Gadzooks, John! Are you suggesting by your comments about Shanghai that they don't have TVs in China?? Careful, or you will get "cottered" by a lot of indignant Chinese!
;-)
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#128 First of all John Beattie is Scottish, so your comments about arrogant English people are irrelevant.
Second I don't think he cares much about the haka. It may be meaningful to you, but it is meaningless to him and to a lot of people. He is (successfully) winding you up though! Can't you just ignore it?
Finally if you think JB is bashing the haka take a look at Andrew Cotter's blog entry which has been bombed by a lot of Kiwis. Over 700 comments!!
Cheerio
The Laird
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RWC is not LONG ENOUGH !!!!! I love it ! especially countries that I would never get to see normally (not being a Sky-servant to Murdoch). I have really enjoyed watching the likes of Portugal, Tonga and especially Georgia - instead of the usual "boys club" of autumn internationals where the home nations play the tri-nations plus Argentina wouldnt it be great to see the minnows play on our shores against our teams? - yes they may get a thrashing but how else are they going to improve? It is pointless Georgia playing Portugal when both should be regularly testing themselves against the home nations. Oh of course I am forgetting - more money in the southern hempishere teams isnt there? I thought, obviously naively, that rugby was a sport not a business.
As for the haka, the best haka responses I ever saw was when an Irish team en masse walked up to and where nose-to-nose with the Kiwis - the noise from the crowd was phenomenal, also I recall Richard Cockerill nose-to-nose with his opposite number (Norm Hewitt??) during a haka - great stuff ! more of that please rather than the usual stony faced stand-off or even the cringeworthy huddle ! Answer me this why does a team have to huddle before the kick off ? surely it cannot be to go through tactics ? all that should be done in the dressing room ! is it supposed to out-psyche the opposition? because it doesnt ! - again it seems a pointless exercise to me.
Oh and as for RWC games being played in Cardiff and Edinburgh!!! - well dont start me there but I am sure the SRU and WRU are considerably richer as a result if you know what I mean.
There, rant over.
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The writers comments about the Haka being meaningless is completely insulting to any New Zealander.
Perhaps before writing such dribble he should read up a little on New Zealand Maori traditions, then he might at least understand and not write such comments.
The world cup is not too long - it is 80 minutes per game of sheer adrenalin and exhaustion - its a far harder game than Football so get over it mate.
If you think its too long then perhaps you're not a true rugby fan!
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Part of the enjoyment of the World Cup is watching the so called 'minnows' putting the premier sides under pressure, and sometimes prevailing. Reducing the numbers of teams will take away most of this aspect, and the competition will become more serious, but will lose the whole ethos of 'world' competition. There is nothing better (as a Welshman) in seeing England being put on the rack by a 'minor' side. Please don't take away this pleasure!!
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Well Michael Jones and Frank Bunce did in fact play for Samoa before playing for their country of birth. Michael in 86, and Frank in 91 WC.
If you have ever wondered why Australia and NZ were so good at the sports they play, thanks to post 122 we now know, Is it to do with fitness levels, better skills, desire to be the best or the money the AIS investes (The Australian Institute of Sport leads the development of elite sport and is widely acknowledged in Australia and internationally as a world best practice model for elite athlete development. The AIS is a pre-eminent elite sports training institution in Australia with world class facilities and support services.)
No its because they Australia and NZ have better weather. Don鈥檛 know if you have been to NZ but the weather isn鈥檛 always great . I鈥檝e been and seen kids playing rugby on a Saturday morning in the winter barefoot and frost on the ground and the kids nearly crying as the ref was going to call the game off as he thought it was to cold for the kids. So the better weather you say is Fact isn鈥檛
Sport in Austalia and NZ is just like here a Recreation. But I do like where you say 鈥渋ts not some lunatic obsession to which we down tools and the whole country comes to a standstill for even the most minor level鈥 I take it you have never been here in England for when the Football world cup is on??
As for the 鈥淵ou play sport for a living and spend the rest of the time criticising the UK (England)鈥 Doesn鈥檛 every country Criticise England? Not just Australia and NZ, I鈥檓 sure the Welsh Scots and Irish take the 鈥淧鈥 out of England and Im know England Criticise Australia and NZ just as much ?? Oh Bunch of Criminals, oh poaching, Oh Haka.
So what if some NZ鈥檇ers鈥 think their team have a god-given right to win the RWC, hasn鈥檛 their team always been the team to beat? Winning 73% of their games SA 62% of their games England 53% Don鈥檛 we here in England think the Football team have a god-given right to win the FWC?? Don鈥檛 Australians think they have a right to win Every Cricket game or Tournament; well they are the best at the sport and take the game to new levels.
Just as Success breeds success it also breeds Envy
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The rubgy world cup needs more midweek matches instead of packing the games into saturday and sunday.
its not easy to organise an event like this beacuse new zeland, australia and other pacific islanders need to kick off at about 1pm uk time so they can ve watched in their home countries and therefore can only realistically play weekends so that europeans can see the matches.
the world cup needs to be this long because of the recovery time. altough teams should be made to field stronger teams in all group games. new zeland have only come up against reserves sides in their competitive matches (scotland). scotland know that they are not going to win so put in their reserves and as a result new zeland have effectively been given the group.
the haka is part of the ceremony before the game and the crowd enjoy seeing it. keep it in
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Keep the haka, the sipi tau, the sivi tau etc - they are too much fun to watch to lose. Remember the Tonga - Samoa start?
Also, rather than reducing the number of teams, increase them. I would like to see 24 or 32 teams, in groups of 4, with the winners going through (and top 2 runners up in the case of 24). The games I've enjoyed most have all involved so-called 'minnows' - Japan have scored the best try, and possibly the 2nd best, of the tournament, and can anyone say they have seen a better game in the WC than Tonga - South Africa?
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NZ are definetley the team to beat, just as they were in 1991, 1995, 1999 & 2003........
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firstly scotland,ireland,wales and england allready have formed a team its called the brittish lions and thats a farse cause its only got token players from scotland and wales and ireland.
secondly the ahka is not a asking for a fight to the death it is a challenge to the oposition asking them to in thier own way "bring it on"
thirdly the reason the world cup is so long is because people who play rugby are men who dont get payed a fortune to play they do it for the sport and the chance to compete and anyone who thinks that its posible to go into a game with the south africans or the all blacks who are all built like bulldozers and tanks, take takles for 80 minuets and then jump out of bed the next day feeling fine needs to have a game of rugby some time oh and a little side note footballers have no right to complane about the lenth because for those 4 weeks of the world cup you dont get to here about anything else thats happening in the world and yet if you look back you will find that the game between scotland and romania was kicked over to a back row channel for the football
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So the ABs are so good because of the better weather? I take it you've seen the sunny posters of Queensland and assume all the SH is one big sunny desert?
I am from Dunedin and can assure you that I didn't play rugby as a kid in 30deg sunshine. Winters were very cols and wet when I was growing up and games would get called off because the ground was frozen as hard as concrete. I've played in horizontal rain where you couldn't feel your legs let alone fingers, I've played in snow, and in sun of course, but not usually warm weather unless it was a preseason game and an Indian summer type of weather.
The reason we are so good at rugby is because it has become an inherent part of our culture. We start throwing a ball around almost before we can walk so it's just a natural thing to be able to throw a good spiral pass. We also take pride in our performance on the field and don't like to let our mates down so the pressure makes you either play well or you'll be out of the team.
Which is why we defend our ABs whenever criticised. NZ is basically one big rugby club, the ABs are just that club's 1stXV so we take it as a personal insult when someone has a go at them. But the hardest critics they'll ever face is themselves and the NZ public. They, and us, really don't care what the rest of you think.
They are here to win this RWC and anything less will be seen as abject failure no matter how well they play. The vitrole you lot throw their way is nothing compared to what awaits them if they step off the plane in Auckland without the cup.
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Sorry only just read this blog so could be repeating what has already been said. No the contest is not too long the smaller nations are already being disadvantaged by quick turnround of matches. The big nations all have two full teams so they can manage a mid week game it is not about TV revanue its about fairness in sport. As for the top 10 playing each other whoopy it happens every year with Norther hemisphere teams touring down south and returned the next year. I love all the rugby and even more-so when you don't care about the result just enjoy the spectical.
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No 142 - thats the sanest comments from a NZ fan that I have ever read. Fair shout matey.
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No 142 - thats the sanest comments from a NZ fan that I have ever read. Fair shout matey.
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The length of the world cup is absolutely fine - this comes round once every 4 years, let us enjoy it whilst it lasts!
And talking about the Haka - why scrap one of the oldest traditions of the game and one of the best spectacles in the tournament? Maybe it just works too well and everyone is getting too intimidated by it and now we're saying it should be stopped. It clearly works for the Kiwis, maybe we should do our own version and we wouldn't be so rubbish!
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130 did you not see the etc etc? I used these names to make a point both of these players played for thier home country Samoa prior to the ABs. Mind you my real point was that NZers moan about the IRB not doing enough for the PI and my point is if players of this ability played for their home country the PI teams would be a lot lot stronger. I have lived in NZ for 18 years and the non stop IRB rubbish chant has always prvailed even when the VP IRB was a kiwi Rob fisher they still did nothing whne yoiu had the chance. And it is rubbish to say they play for the ABs as the ABs are the best, the ABs may well be the best but most of these players play for the ABs for money and a better life. And don't try and tell me that rugby players did not get paid before rugby become Pro!!!!I hope now you understand. Try taking the patch off that eye !!!!!
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Jeremy
A New Zealand citizen/resident Polynesian is eligible to play for the AB's or their Pacific Island of ancestry origin (whether born there or not).
They don't choose the AB's for money.
They can make more playing in the UK or France and still play for their island (just not the AB's who require residency in New Zealand). Most AB's make more money playing overseas than while they were AB's and so would any Polynesian New Zelander who chose to play overseas throughout their career and also their island of ancestry origin.
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