Irish fall under magician's spell (115)
- 30 Sep 07, 11:15 PM
Paris - As Argentina鈥檚 players , Ireland鈥檚 stood around in stunned silence, staring vacantly into the distance.
They looked like unwanted guests at someone else鈥檚 party, not uttering a word.
They then had to go through the torturous process of collecting a medal as a permanent memento of their participation in this World Cup.
It is safe to say it won鈥檛 take pride of place in any of these players鈥 trophy cabinets.
Anything that reminds them of the dismal four weeks they have just endured is not something to be treasured but should be consigned to the nearest available dustbin.
Eddie O鈥橲ullivan shuffled around, hands in pockets, possibly wondering whether that was signed correctly.
It seemed a questionable move at the time, even more so after a campaign in which for the challenges awaiting in the 'group of death'.
Later, as he addressed his accusers in the media, O鈥橲ullivan said: "You don鈥檛 become a bad team in six months.鈥
But Ireland seem to have managed it. Sunday鈥檚 display against Argentina was probably their best of the tournament, which wasn鈥檛 saying much.
The most obvious symbol of their decline was Ronan O鈥橤ara, so instrumental in establishing Ireland as a European force in recent years.
Whatever the veracity of some of during this campaign, the poise and precision kicking game on which the Munsterman has built his reputation was nowhere to be seen.
His frailties were magnified in comparison to his opposite number, Juan Martin Hernandez, who tortured Ireland for the entire match, controlling it with his booming right boot and tactical precision.
Known as El Mago - The Magician - in Argentina, the 25-year-old had Ireland under his spell.
His best moment came just before half-time when he chased a high kick, collected the ball in full flight and deftly offloaded it to a team-mate out of the back of his hand before he hit the ground. Class.
Moments later wing Horacio Agulla was crossing in the left corner and Argentina were heading for the dressing room 18-10 in front.
Where Ireland continually shot themselves in the foot, Hernandez used both of his to optimum effect.
On the he had seen .
Here he stroked over two with his right foot, putting his side 8-3 up and then regaining the lead at 11-10, before calmly switching to his left foot in the last minute to rub in the Pumas鈥 superiority.
It was fitting he should have the last word on the pitch and he was besieged by journalists for plenty more later as he emerged into the mixed zone with his daughter in tow.
He could barely be heard among the raucous din his team-mates were creating, banging on a partition wall as they sang their way triumphantly through the area.
Their outpouring of joy was infectious, taking a lead from their wonderful fans, who twirled their scarves manically in the air as the clock wound down on another famous victory.
At the end, the magnificent flanker Juan Fernandez Lobbe had his shirt off, spinning it round above his head like a man possessed, emotion fusing through him as he roared something to the supporters acclaiming him like a demi-god.
Soon his team-mates followed suit, as they went on a celebratory lap of honour.
This won鈥檛 be Argentina鈥檚 last tango in Paris.
They will take on on Sunday as warm favourites to make it through to the last four, where they would likely face South Africa.
It was a journey that many pundits envisaged Ireland taking at this World Cup.
Sadly, for the 30,000 Irish fans who continued to belt out '' when the game was long since up, the only place the players are going is home.
Bryn Palmer is the 主播大秀 Sport website鈥檚 rugby union editor.
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Ireland were shocking yeaterday, but Argentina were so composed! They had the guts to kick the ball to Hickie and Murphy and dare them to come back at them! As an Englishman its a very alien tactic, but it worked brilliantly.
And people say Latham is good under the high ball, well take a look at this Hermandez fella!
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Eddie O'Sullivan should be sacked now!
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"Later, as he addressed his accusers in the media, O鈥橲ullivan said: 'You don鈥檛 become a bad team in six months.'"...
Surely he doesn't believe that? They've been going backwards; standing still at the very least, for much longer than that. Removing the press hype here in Ireland (and that takes some doing), they've struggled badly in 6N against "poorer" teams (Wales, Scotland, Italy), pinning reputations on matches with England (who are way off the pace) and France (who we never beat).
Reached a good place couple of years ago, failed to move on.
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"Eddie O鈥橲ullivan shuffled around, hands in pockets"........... pretty much what he did during the four matches anyway. ROG is a good player, but by keeping him in the firing line EOS may have done lasting damage, and you could tell by EOS face when murphy crossed the line that he was already thinking of his excuses for not having played him earlier.
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The best team won. Funny to see how much BOD had to say after scoring his try. I wonder how much he had to say at the final whistle. Even funnier was his comment after the match that 'it was hard against a side who refused to play in their own half'! No side chooses 'to play in their own half' ..duh ..you have to make them, and Ireland didn't have the skill or desire. BOD's behavious indicate the root of the problem, he was incensed that such a 'minor nation' wouldn't give the Irish they respect they (think that they) deserve. And there is me thinking that respect had to be earned. This was a victory for sport, and shames the IRB's reluctance to properly fund the wider/world game.
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As an Englishman i was surprised to see Ireland struggle in this RWC as they have been strong for a number of years. I must say some players just looked like this was either a touramant too far or under-prepared - which is the case i wonder? One thing is certain though, next years 6 Nations should be interesting as all teams will be rebuilding - i am sure we have the the last of players such as O'Kelly, Stringer, Hayes, Wallace and Easterby in green. This combined with the obviosu need for new blood in England and Wales should make for a great tournamnet. For the sake of Northern Hemisphere rugby and the British & Irish Lions things need to improve. Hats off to Argentina also they have played well, should beat Scotland then its a semi-final (who knows??)
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Hey matey,
So they didn't perform, and so the mistakes were made. Ireland the squad did not give themselves the title as favourites, so if the media are disappointed, they can only be upset by the pedestal they put these guys on. Good Luck to them and Eddie O'Sullivan. Let's restore some pride in the Magners and the Heineken Cup, then bring on the 6 Nations, where we can put undeserving nations (that eek through easy groups, Scotland) to the sword. Let's not turn this into Welsh Rugby where they sack coaches for fun. The 主播大秀 are sometimes on the button, but sometimes they don't think about what they write. example:
'Ireland failed to make the QFs for the first time' Well if your journalists followed sport, they might find that this the third consecutive RWC with Ireland & Argies in the same group. 1999, Argentina won 28-24 to stop Ireland going through to the QFs, then we returned the favour in 2003 by winning by a point.
Get yer facts right 主播大秀.
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Its the same old story, we always peek and then drop off again, its been happening for years. We got a good rep by beating south Africa and Aus, but they were 2nd teams and were not the strongest teams they could have fielded. Beating england wasn't a surprise. Ill admit that we were playing good for a while but thats gone now and i don't think it will be back, I truly home im wrong.
Phil
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The most shocking thing about this world cup is the intransigence of O Sullivan. The refusal to use a squad, the refusal to make changes, the refusal to see what was happening and even when beat, the refusal to accept the reality we all know. He has ministered a good team into a very very bad team. All credit to Argentina , I would love to see them in the final... but Irish players should be ashamed of themselves. Those who don't want to play under the flag of Ireland or the Anthem of Ireland could go and play for England I suppose. But whatever else lets stop this Irelands call nonsense. It's embarressing more so when you see the quality of play on the field.
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No-one in Ireland would question that the squad selected for the RWC are the best available, nor can the money, time and resources made available for the team be criticised. Therefore we must look at how the players are coached. In this regard EOS has shown a total failure of imagination, flair or an ability to suprise an opposition. Ireland are the most predictable team in world rugby and when you add to this O'Sullivans blind and often misplaced faith in players who have served well in the past the results in the RWC are not as suprising as some would have you believe. EOS has refused to try anything other than O'Gara who has been miserable for the best part of a year and was responsible for about half of the Argies points through his uncanny ability to kick the ball to their best players, John Hayes looks slow and underpowered at world level while the constant overlooking of Boss at scrum half and Murphy at full back is damming proof of the coaches fear of anything new and unpredictable.
Ireland have the resources we now need a new coach, new ideas and a new direction for our rugby.
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Yes Ireland have some good players and yes, they did go through a reasonably extended period of playing above their natural station, but frankly I cannot believe why anyone is massively surprised that a tiny country that has historically struggled at the top level of rugby hasn't managed to beat two of the world's top sides.
Okay, so they "got" professionalism a lot better than Scotland or Wales - mostly by not spending a penny on their stadium until very recently and thus have the funds to pay their players to stay in Ireland.
However, historically, they were the weakest side in the 5 nations with 1 Grand Slam in 106 attempts! And perhaps people need to see their over-achievement within that context.
Incidentally, I reckon that Scotland and England could be the suprise Semi-finalists in this tournament...
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Eoin, I couldn't agree with you more, pinning all of irelands hopes on beating a very average england team and "nearly" winning a six nations is laughable now in the cold light of day. ireland have not moved on since last world cup and had no answers to the so called minnows who wouldn't let themselves be bullied around the park, lets hope lessons have been learned but the big question is, is it too late? do we now have 4 more years with a coach who is over cautious and happy to stick with the same 18 or so favourates that he has picked game in game out for the last 5 years or so (a group of men who Gatlan blooded for him anyway).
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I was at the game yesterday and it was clear from the moment the national anthems were played that there was no hope for Ireland. The argentinians were jumping up and down raring to go while the irish just looked like they wished they were home.
And how can someone play as poorly as O'Gara for four games in a row and never be substituted. The poor lad was nearly begging to come out, no decent coach would have left him on the pitch.
Ireland need a new coach and a fresh start.
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Ireland's participation in this world cup has been a fiasco from start to finish. Poor coaching, poor organisation and poor preparation. O'Sullivan should take the blame and resign and if he doesn't he should be sacked before the day is out.
Fair play to the Puma's; passtionate organised, determined. I'll now be supporting them!!
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"you don't become a bad team in six months" - well maybe, yes. But there always has to be an exception to the rule, right?
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O'Sullivan will not walk, he will have to be pushed as there is big pay cheque to collect. He is not the gentleman Ashton is.
Our pack has been a shambles from the start of this tournament. We used to be an excellent team at the breakdown, b ut seemed to turn the ball over again and again. But, for me, the most disappointing thing from the pack this tournament was the lineout. We must have lost at least 50% of our own and never even contested the opposition throw in. We were afraid of getting mauled! What has happened in the last 6 months. This used to be one of the best packs in the world.
D'Arcy and O'Gara have been the two individual disasters of the tournament. Shadows of themselves and need to be replaced urgently.
We need to sacrifice the 6 Nations for a few years now and start blooding new players.
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Ireland have been heading in this direction for some time now. The IRFU need to take swift action to remedy their decline. Irish rugby appeared to have the pillars in place to become a world force 2 years ago. Munster won the European Cup and 3 Triple Crowns pointed to a team on the rise. EOS has a lot to answer for and Ireland must now do a lot of navel gazing, working out the way ahead for a team of ageing players.
I feel Argentina need to be given huge credit for their steady rise to 5th in the World rankings (and we may see that rise too in the next month. A colossal pack has now been reinforced with exciting back play. All the talk is about the magnificent Hernandez but for me, Pichot has been instrumental. he has been one of the all time great scrum halves, hugely talented, consistent and talismanic. Together they are a match for the Kelleher / Carter axis for NZ
They should cruise past Scotland and then should relish the prospect of South Africa in the semis. I would love to see them go all the way and would not bet against them. Good luck to the Pumas.
By the way, I had a dream about the All Blacks coming unstuck against the French, the last team they would have wanted to play in the Quarters, particularly as they look under-cooked. France - Argentina final? Don't bet against it.
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"Later, as he addressed his accusers in the media, O鈥橲ullivan said: 'You don鈥檛 become a bad team in six months...'"
That's right - sure it only takes six weeks!
They don't call him Fast Eddie for nothing!
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Despite the awful stodge that Scotland - Italy served up, what are the chances that the irresistible force that is Argentina come smack up against the immovable object that is Paterson's boot...? Exuberant and brilliant as the Argentinians are, he will punish any mistakes they make in their own half.
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If I was a Scotsman I would be quietly optimistic. Much of Argentina's game is based around spoiling. They rely heavily on the other team trying to play rugby. Scotland know that they can't play rugby similar to that played by NZ, SA etc. Ireland thought they could but quite clearly can't. Scotland, therefore, have a very simple gameplan, which will be to kick their penalties and be very aggresssive and competitive up front and at the breakdown, and take anything else that comes their way. A bit like Argentina do aginst supposedly "bigger natio
ns". I predict a very tight match, being won by no more than 7 points either way.
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Ireland ultimately paid the price for insufficient strength in depth and a lack of genuine competition for places. O'Gara and D'Arcy have had shocking tournaments but there was no realistic alternative but to keep playing them and hope that they got better. One storming performance against England aside Ireland haven't played well for some time but even so their world cup has been surprisingly dismal. They look poorly lead, with a rapidly declining pack of forwards and little on field leadership.
Could it be that the domestic system, which is designed to benefit the national side, is actually letting them down? Irish players do not play in enough must win games over the course of the season to establish a method of winning the critical games - no relegation and no competition for Heineken Cup places means they spend too much of their domestic programme coasting. The Guinness Premiership certainly has its faults and probably isn't as good a spectacle as the Magner's League but it has far more must win games and so players (and not just English ones) become used to the pressure. Lest we forget, Munster's Heineken Cup win aside this group of Irish players has never won anything of any consequence and thi scan't just be the fault of the coach.
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Post #7
"Let's restore some pride in the Magners and the Heineken Cup, then bring on the 6 Nations, where we can put undeserving nations (that eek through easy groups, Scotland) to the sword."
Easy group?! With the All Blacks? And Italy - whom, if I remember correctly, Ireland were outplayed by in Belfast just before the RWC, giving a small hint of things to come.
That comment reeks of arrogance. Ireland have no divine right to a QF place - as evidenced by this their second failure to reach the promised land. Your team have choked - again - on the highest stage this time. So before looking to blame the organisers for putting you with France and Argentina (which I do think was a bit harsh btw) remember that you were 3 minutes from beating the French in the 6 Nations, and if you were playing the rugby you played 2 or 3 years ago, you'd have beaten Argentina.
So now look at the team and think: which of these players should still be there in February? If you answer more than 7, look again.
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EOS tried to stick to the tried and trusted and they weren't up to it. Good move to ditch Stringer, but far too late, you can't expect Reddan to suddenly become world class in 2 games. Let's face it all of the home nations are struggling up front. We are slow to the breakdown and getting outmuscled all over the field. It's difficult to keep winning games of the back foot. Perhaps we all need to offer some scholerships to a load of Tongan and Samoan school kids and see where we are in 10 years time!
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Well, the only plus point to this disaster I can come up with are 2 cracking WC games to come - France-NZ and Argentina SA.
Bring Argentina into the 6N please, they oh so richly deserve it!
Argentina Existe!
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Give the lads a break, don't be turncoats like the Welsh. They may not have got out of the pool of death and it was always going to be a close call. At least they got over the try line twice which is more than France did and dirtied up the Argentinian's reputation of having no tries scored against them. Agentina have got too big for their boots! and I hope SA thrash them. They think they are gods now just because they squeezed a win over France. Easy for the below average Scots to get through as they had the easiest group and only squeezed by Italy who I think were robbed and deserved to go through. The Scots are becoming more like England depending on the kicker to score them points. The two most boring teams to watch.Come on Ireland, ye'll pick yerselves up, dust yourselves off and will show your fans what you are really made of.
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It was very clear what the Argentinian tactics were yesterday. In what way did the Irish change game plans to counter this? I couldn't discern any change that got implemented.
BOD told the ITV after match audience, that the Argentinians, "Didn't want to play Rugby, " and "Kicked."
Sure he was diappointed, but a more graceless, pointless and futile set of words would be hard to muster. They stuck to their game plan based on their strengths.
BTW I don't think the Scotland situation is absoultely-completely- 100%-hopeless with Paterson kicking, but how many penalties did Argentina give away? Not enough for Scotland to win given Argentina will score tries and drop goals.
The Southern Hemisphere is being out thought tactically -Argentina v Ireland, Soutyh Africa v England etc and with the exception of England, out muscled - Polynesia and the Blacks.
Well played Argentina.
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Luke, you need to have a look at what you've just typed. Scotland only got into Italy's 22 3 times in 80 mins. Hardly a good game of rugby. The backs were ordinary, no moments of flair. I'm sorry, you cannot even begin to compare Hernandez and that 12 stone (wet through) Paterson. Yes he's got a good boot (one) Hernandez, is performing at a higher level. Argentina's discipline was surprisingly good against the irish,and when it wasn't they were able to get away with it. Honestly?? Scotland may not even score. Because without Paterson, they won't. He'll be there, but do you really think that the Argies won't be able to close down a guy that has got no step, no pace, only a right peg, especially after they closed down one of the best half back pairings in the tournament (France) Have a Word matey. No tries for Scotland as usual. Then Hadden will get his P45.
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It has now become clear to me that it is not just a number of the 'untouchables' in O'Sullivan's squad, and the manager himself who need to be ousted. It is the entire board of the IRFU.
What was going through their heads when they hastily and rather foolishly gifted O'Sullivan a 4 year extension to his contract.
Granted, he may have been one of our most succesful coaches ever, but look at what he has had to work with over the last few years! Possibly the most gifted group of Irish athletes ever to grace a sport field. And what has he realy achieved? A couple of Triple Crowns over the fellow home nations who have all been substandard since the last world cup.
The farce that is the IRFU should also be made to answer their charge of favouring Irish Based players over the countless talented Individuals who ply their trade in the English Premiership.
In the dark days of Irish rugby in the 1990s how is it that thy could justify Eric Elwood's continual selection over the budding talent that was david Humphreys just because he played in England, albeit for London Irish! O'shea, O'kelly, Hogan, and Dawson. Are just a few of the names we would never have heard of if the standard of Irish based players had not been so low to neccesitate their inclusion. Many of these only realy got their chance once returning to the provinces.
And now.... the situation is no better.
One of our most exceptional talents, Geordan Murphy was made to stand on the sidelines for most of the tournament. leo cullen and Bob Casey two of the premierships best locks have been completely overlooked in favour of the out of form O callaghan and underweight O Connell.
And a potential bright prospect in Shane Geharty wisely chose to play for England for exactly this reason.
Sure Johnny Oconner almost made the same choice a few years back!
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Argentina got it right, Ireland were dogged but poor. It may be the game has changed, this continual up and under has worked well for Argentina, later teams will play well against it but I worry for the future of the running game I love. Full credit to the Argentinian side, I hope they win again, but I also hope the rule makers look at the long term consequences of the up and under game.
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Argentina deserved to win and best of luck to them for the rest of the tournament.
As for the Irish match, I can't recall ever seeing so many turnover balls won in a single match. Each time Ireland had the ball and were tackled, you just felt Argentina were going to get the ball. They were the one with pride and passion.
If you look at Irish matches in the past, they have played well when D'Arcy and O'Gara have been on song and neither of those two men have played well this world cup. I don't think O'Gara has played well since that awful event at the end of the Scotland match when he was left in very bad shape on the field.
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I think Scotland have a far better chance than alot of people are giving them. Granted, the Scottish and Irish games are broadly similar in style (though executed more successfully by the Scots in this World Cup), but they will be fighting in the game with Argentina in totally different circumstances, and with different tactical objectives.
Consider that Scotland have already met everyone's expectations for their RWC campaign, and can revel in their position as underdogs. Compare this with the massive media hype that was piled on the 'golden generation', hype which may have been well deserved, but only served to pile on the pressure.
Also, Scotland won't be needing four tries, and when penalties are available in the Argentine half, they can rely on Paterson's boot to give them three easy points every time, rather than constantly kicking for the corner. Parks has also contributed far more than O'Gara, in terms of the accuracy of his kicking, his occasional line-breaks, and in his ability to pin the opposition back in their own '22. Similerly, the Blair/Cusiter option provides a degree of tactical variation that the inexperienced Reddan couldn't provide. Sure, the Scots don't have an O'Driscoll in their three-quarters, but with three excellent centers to fit into two spots (Webster, Dewey, and Henderson), the Scots may well dominate. My only obvious concern is the boot of Hernandes, which may well give cheap drop-goals throughout the night, perhaps offsetting the advantage offered by the reliable Paterson. The only way to counter that is to pin the Argentinians back in their own half, and to dominate their forwards. The strength of the Scottish lineout may be crucial here, when the Argentine lineout seems to be misfiring a bit.
I'm not saying that it will be easy, and following their win against Ireland, the Argentinians can go into the Quarter-final with a degree of confidance, but the Scots will be a totally different prospect from the self-destructing 'golden generation'.
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Well played Argentina. You deserved the win. I suppose I knew in my heart when I watched Ireland's appalling performance against Italy at Ravenhill in the last warm-up game before the start of the RWC that we were not going to progress too far. And it is interesting to recall that that evening,too, ROG, Hickie and D'Arcy were among the poorest players in an under-performing team.
The question of whether EOS has a furure as Ireland's coach is on everyone's lips. I guess I agree with the general view that however compelling the case may be for EOS to go, it is unlikely that the IRFU will sack him. But surely the Union must take up a position of enlightened self-interest: if the postings on this site are representative of the views of Irish supporters--and it is almost axiomatic that they are--then there is near unanimity, that whoever else is at fault, the circumstances require EOS to go, even if only symbollically to make a clean break with the disaster that has been the last month. And if that is the view of Irish fans, how many of them are going to rush to support an Irish team in the 6N in 2008 that is coached by EOS? So come on, IRFU, take the bold commercial decision and keep the supporters --your supporters--happy, and the money rolling in to the Union coffers.
One last thought: will we ever hear the truth about all the lurid rumours emanating from the Ireland camp over the last few weeks?
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Is it me or is BOD becoming a moaning prima donna? His comments after the game where the sort of sulking, one eyed clap-trap you'd expect to here from a football manager after his side had been out played and out-scored by a better team.
No Brian, they didn't let you win and they did it magnificently. Have the humility to admit that.
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A few random thoughts about yesterday's match and in general:
- Argentina controlled the match from minute 7th and never looked in danger
- Marcelo Loffreda is one of the best tacticians around
- EOS was completely outcoached by Loffreda
- Hernandez >>> O'Gara (not only in current form; there's also a void in class)
- Ireland are not as rubbish as people are saying. They were outplayed and outgunned by better opponents. Many of Ireland's mistakes were forced by the Pumas.
- O'Driscoll is wonderful to watch but his attitude and comments are unsportmanlike. You're the skipper for god's sake.
- O'Gara is one nasty fellow. Said Feli Contempomi after the match: "O'Gara is a disgusting person, he looked very nervous and kept trying to unsettle us with his mocking".
- Argentina are a good, solid, and disciplined team. But disregard all the rubbish talk about us making the final. We play to our strengths and we keep it always tight. We don't get ahead of ourselves. We made two mistakes that cost us tries yesterday. I will be delighted to get to the semis. That would be an enormous achievement.
- Argentina Existe. It is no longer politically correct not to give us the chance of entering the 6N or 3N. This is a no-brainer.
- Table-toppers are all from the SH. Coincidence?
- Juan Martin Hernandez is pure genius. Contempomi is influential. Pichot is a spiritual leader. The pack is the best in the world.
- It's true we are not better than France or Ireland. But we are not worse either. And, matches last 80 minutes. Anything can happen. I would like to see whether this is also true if we face the 3N teams. I am not confident I can say the same. I hope we'll have a chance of finding out.
Thanks to all the gentlemen out there who gave credit to the Pumas and will support them from now on, and also to those who won't support us but praised the Pumas spirit and love fo the game. Argentina Existe. Juan Ignacio "Maradona" Hernandez Existe. Believe.
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As predicted 3 triple crowns means nothing. 主播大秀 at the end of the Pool stages. The same as Portugal, Namibia and USA.
The Golden Era apparently means winning a couple of England V Ireland matches, wooo-hooo watch out world!!!
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In response to the last comment- it would be idiotic if Hadden got sacked after a defeat to Argentina. Scotland would be a q-f team at best- they're overachieving and two-dimensional; they remind me of wales a few years back when they were absolutely dependent on Neil Jenkins. Regardless of this WC's results, scotland are the weakest of the old 5 nations sides in terms of player ability- and argentina will beat them quite comfortably with a margin of 10-15 points.
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Post 22. Absolutely right about the lack of alternatives at ten for Ireland. I have read a lot of posts from unhappy Ulster fans calling for Wallace, but who do they think they are kidding?
He doesn't play at out half for his province and you expect him to play international level at ten??? that's a delusion.
I think Eddie did have other options though, such as Horgan at 12 or Carney on the wing, N.Best/Quinlan in the back row. His biggest mistake was (obviously) Murphy. Played very well yesterday despite the insane rating the 主播大秀 blog gave him.
As for RoG, I think the 2 tries yesterday showed that he's not 'lost it'. His pack haven't provided him or the scrum halves with steady ball. The two times they did we pi**ed through the Argie backs like they weren't there.
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Post 29: Three triple crowns in four years is a great success for a small nation who just a few years early were perennial wooden spoon favourites.
This is the first batch of professional Irish rugby players and we have improved hugely. The past few years have to be seen as a good time for Irish rugby, despite the disappointment of this RWC.
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Have to laugh at Wee Man calling Scotland an "undeserving nation" who "eek through easy groups". Just as well than that Scotland avoided the migtht of Georgia (who should have beaten Ireland) and Namibia (who the Irish also struggled past). Talk of easy groups, easy runs to quarter finals etc always come from teams who have failed.
Ireland had a fine team who for many reasons completely failed to perform in this World Cup. Better to focus on what went wrong and try put it right rather than bizzarely having a go at another team who ARE through to the quarter finals.
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ireland have to look long and hard at the complete disaster of this world cup and so do all the home nation with england and sctoland sure to come home next week as well yet again the sourthern hemasphere has jumped head again! even the islanders look better !!
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"Agentina have got too big for their boots! and I hope SA thrash them. They think they are gods now just because they squeezed a win over France."
A more ungracious comment I've yet to hear, and that's even after BOD's post-match reaction. As an Irish supporter, you embarrass me.
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Were there not rumous about EOS's new Ireland contract interfering with him coaching the 2009 Lions - probably not any more!
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what is it with the word 'arrogance'and rugby fans? i thought it was just us english who were supposed to be arrogant but now i see it being thrown at irish fans. i have been to dublin several times for the rugby and to me, arrogant irish is an oxymoron. if this WC has proved anything it is that no nation can be underestimated, which is where we NH teams have probably gone wrong. Argentina have been getting better for years and this result was no surprise to me and no disgrace to Ireland. I agree with earlier blog saying forego 6 nations glory and rebuild, just as england should have done 4 years ago. The 6 nations might not be the best but it is definitely the most looked forward to of the annual tournaments and next year will be no different despite what the SH fans say - packed grounds, great pubs and superb friendships, none better than in dublin. So chins up you irish and see you at HQ next year
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So, Eddie O'Sullivan has a contract for four more years. And, if the IRFU decide to dispense with his services in the near future, it will be an expensive exercise.
Though it would not have been practicable for the IRFU to have sought out the views of the rugby-club members who purchase tickets, and of all of those Irish supporters who have invested Euro 15,000 each for ten year debenture seats in the new stadium at Lansdowne Road (and other categories of supporters), these supporters would not like to see their hard earned money squandered in paying several million in compensation to Eddie O'Sullivan (should the IRFU decide to dispense with his services in the short term).
But, hopefully the powers that be in the IRFU will learn from this experience. And never again award a lucrative contract to a coach just as he is heading into the most important rugby tournament in the world. It will also be a salutary lesson for sporting organisations worldwide. The proof of the pudding is always in the eating.
If the IRFU had not been so foolhardy in committing themselves in advance in this manner, does anyone really believe that they would have stuck with Eddie O'Sullivan in the long term ? Instead, Irish supporters are now stuck with a coach who simply did not deliver for them on the world's greatest stage. And the only way to alter this situation is to pay out millions of their own hard earned money to the coach in question as financial compensation for the termination of his latest contract (albeit monies which are under the auspices and control of the IRFU).
There is no doubt that Eddie O'Sullivan will drive a hard financial bargain. And who could blame him ? His team has given us great joy as well as massive disappointment. Many who stood and cheered the team off the field after the February match at Croke Park experienced the greatest days of their lives. So, yes, by all means acknowledge what he has achieved. But what a pity that that acknowledgement will have to be in the form of several years' salary instead of, say, a single year of salary.
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Re Brendan at post 27 what BOD actually said was "we were playing against a team that refuses to play in their own half". I noticed on the ITV highlights that this got shortened to "we were playing against a team that refuses to play [sic]". I interepreted this comment from BOD as a compliment to Argentina and thought it was a cheap shot from ITV to create something to talk about in the studio.
I also note your comments re Northern Hemisphere. I think the game on Sunday complicated this argument as most of the Argie players play in the North (as do Fijis). Also England won the last world cup at this time of year. My own view is that the current Northern teams are just not good enough.
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"You don't become a bad team in six months"?
Ask Andy Robinson...
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Memo to the IRFU admin, coaching staff and any player ever hoping to wear an Irish rugby jersey:
Drop the haircuts and blond tips. Get off the social pages, out of the gym and onto the training field (in all weather and seasons). Leave your egos at the entrance and start with no 'dick-heads' policy. Get hard and go cold. Be modest and never, ever underestimate your opponents. Build a winning mindset - none of this 'we lost well' and played with 'passion'. Long suffering Irish rugby supporters deserve the best. Warriors stand up please.
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EOS - Go now!
Here's why:
1) You inherited a gifted team from Warren Gatland and have won nothing of note with it.
2) You alienated key players like David Humphries (who should have at the very least been on the bench to step in for the appalling O'Gara at this world cup
3) You have failed to bring forward new players, relying entirely on the old stagers and breeding a sense of complete complacency.
4) You have created a one-dimensional team tactically
5) You are unable to use your bench.
6) Your team selection is a joke. Geordan Murphy proved that yesterday when he was finally allowed to play. (although I suspect if Dempsey had been fit then Murphy would have spent 70 mins on the bench!)
7) The dumb concept of preferring players from the Irish provincial teams (apart from Ulster it would seem) over those who play in England or France. That might make sense for the All Blacks due to the distance involved but not when you have a limited pool of players to start with and travel is not a major issue.
And finally....
You were given all the preparation time you asked for, all the resources and, well, the results speak for themselves.
So do the right thing for once and quit with some dignity intact!
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Ireland's demise comes as no surprise to me. This is a team that believes its own hype. Their attitude stinks and this clearly eminates from the coach and captain. You would be hard pressed to find a more petulant and arrogant group of individuals and this has also spread to many of their supporters. Ireland have gone through a relatively successful period but history shows that they are traditionally the weakest of the home nations. Blaming the world cup draw and complaining that Scotland got an easier route (wee man) is almost as pathetic as EOS accusing Nathan Hines of attempted murder. Incidentally I don't think the choice of anthems would have affected the outcome of any of the matches.
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re: Post 34
You are quick to point out how unsportsmanlike the Irish are, but between dirty gouging tactics in the past against us and your triumphalism yesterday (Contemponi holding his ears when he scored) I, for one, will be happy to see you go out. C'mon Scotland!
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maybe o driscoll and rog were concerned about the pumas 3 off the ball incidents on murphy. the pumas deserved to win but they should have been punished for their illegal targeting of murphy.
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Congratulations to Argentina. Its always important to remember that an upset in the RWC is always a great leap forward for another nation (Georgia vs. Ireland; Fiji vs. Wales; Tonga vs. Samoa).
Anyway enough of that rabbling. EOS should go and we need a new coach with fresh ideas. He must have learned a lot from Alistair Campbell during the Lions tour about spin judging from some of the rubbish he has come out with after some of the games. Argentina are always a tough side to play, the best on this occasion, and France always beat us. Remember that we wouldnt have needed the 4 try victory if we had got 4 tries against all the 'minnows' (i.e. Georgia) we were grouped with!
Finally the idea of selecting players from the provinces over players from outside ireland is ridiculus. Look at Paddy Wallaces situation. He is no. 2 for ireland at fly-half and is also no.2 for Ulster. So he doesnt get a game for either team. If he went to England he would more likely be getting regular playing time but he wont be picked for ireland because he is playing outside Ireland. If he went to Connacht, the quality around him would be so much lower that he would never improve.
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anybody who follows rugby and didnt see this coming must be pretty deluded this morning...i am about to collect my winnings from a bet made in may that we wouldnt get out of the group..its unbelievable how so many people were under the impression that we had a good 6 nations and all this bullsiht about our players being world class. it was obvious from the first few minutes yesterday that it was going to be another failure when o'gara kicked the early penalty to touch...no structure to the "game plan"...i mean surely the idea was to first and foremost win the game..we had no support runners all tournament and that is just bad discipline which cannot magically sort itself out in a fortnight. it was like the emperors new clothes for the past year...everyone going on about how good we are..o'sullivan constantly reminding us how things will come right and everyone wanting to buy into it..i for one am not in the least bit surprised about our failure. i read some scottish guy in this blog talking about how ireland are the worst performing team in the history of the 6 nations, well the irb can stick the 6 nations cause it has been shown to be what it is, a tournament of mediocrity and the tradition of the 6 nations is something that any progressive rugby team can do without. i am sick of playing against crap opponents every year...that is the malaise with which ireland have suffered...playing crappy scotland and getting bogged down in crap rugby. o'sullivan should have learnt his lesson from the lions in 2005. we had no support runners and nobody clearing out rucks all tournament. the thing is you can get away with it in the 6 nations, but not against teams who have progressed with the times. scotland may disrupt argentina the same way they always try and beat ireland, by keeping it tight and dragging the standard down but we should all cop on and make a stand against playing such a hopeless tournament every year. it is a waste of everyone's time. this is no time for sentiment
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Re comment no. 38, the "triple crown" is no longer an indicator of the calibre of an international rugby team. To be counted as one of the top teams, you have to be able to make it to the semi-finals of a World Cup. The "triple crown" was all very fine in an era in which there was no World Cup and there were only five national teams playing in the Northern Hemisphere's championship. Now, it is a meaningless accolade.
Ireland have to perform on the World stage in the Rugby World Cup and, only if they make it to the semis in 2011, will they really have emerged as a major player.
As regards Ireland being a "perennial" wooden spoonist in the five nations chapionship, I think that the use of the word "perennial" is an exaggeration. To the best of my recollection, we never 'won' the 'wooden spoon' more than twice in a row. And, once Italy joined the fray, we simply stopped winning wooden spoons altogether in the newly expanded Six Nations Championship.
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***O'Sullivan said "You don't become a bad team in six months"***
Very true....
Which means.......
They already were a bad team
but where made look adequate playing against similarly atrocious opponents in the first half of this calendar year: lets face it they beat the Wooden Spooners by 1 point!!!
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hey it's not all bad news for ireland - at least they managed to score enough points to equal japan's group total!
eddie o'sullivan - hari kiri?
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From an aussie's point of view Argentina were entertaining and impressive- would be great to see them get into the last week or 2 of the tournament.
BOD is a class player but let himself down with his post match comments. Was O'Gara sledgeing? He must feel like a rank loser today. The opposite flyhalf was a class or 3 above.
Hope the Irish find some form and come back.
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Why don't people accept that Ireland were never as good as they thought they were?
O'Connell, O'Gara, D'Arcy, O'Callaghan, Leamy, Flannery et all are hopelessly over rated. BOD is consistently world class, and Hickie has rarely let his side down, but the rest - the pack in particular - have been totally shown up over the last year.
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Wales + Ireland were terrible at this WC. Scotland aren't brilliant either and have the Italian penalty knick miss right at the end to thank for their progress.
Theres one thing glaringly obvious here - the Magners league is a waste of time for giving players week in week out quality rugby. Its all right waiting around for the Heineken cup matches, but there arent many of them, especially if you drop out at the group stages like most of us Celtic nation boys do!.
We have to change the way we do everything in rugby within Great Britain and Ireland or we WILL be the minnows in 2011. I can imagine NZ fielding a 2nd string against one of us in 2011 and giving us a pasting, just like they've been doing to the likes of Romania in this WC.
Hope the people at the top of rugby here have it in them to really sort things out and get some good ideas going.
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I think alot of Irelands problems started in the warm up games. They played very poorly during these matches and each time the same excuses were given...rustiness etc...It is quite obvious looking back now, that the rot had truly set in back in August.
Unfortunately when it comes to doing well in Big Sporting Events - Timing is CRUCIAL....just look at the ALL BLACKS!!!! O'Sullivan did not have the tactical sense to replace players not in form - D'Arcy, O'Gara etc..and his ommission of Murphy on the bench for the French game was probably the most spiteful decision I have ever seen. BTW - I think Murphy had a good game yesterday. For this alone I think Eddie should get his marching orders - But we all know it won't happen...(One rule for Kimi coaches and one rule for Irish born coaches )!!
However, I think the future is bright for Irish Rugby - Irish supporters should be positive looking forward. One thing this team has achieved is raising the profile of the game particularly over the last 5 or 6 seasons..
Lastly - I would like to commend the Argies who I will be supporting for the rest of the WC. The spirit they have shown during the tournament has been unbelievable.
Looking forward to the reaction Felipe get in against Munster this year!!! HA HA...
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Thanks to all our fellow Celts for your unstinting praise of Scotland and their achievement in reaching the QF's - NOT!!! There are no lucky teams in the World Cup, we got to where we are now, by sheer hard work and a passionate desire to do our country proud. Wales and Ireland? do one!
SAOR ALBA
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Well said KMS. The author (#25) of that comment obviously does not know anything about Argentina's progress in the world of rugby.
They have not only beaten France numerous times, but they have now sent Ireland home from the RWC, not once, but twice.
They remind me of the Ireland of old...playing with total passion and commitment. Instead of mouthing sour grapes we should be acknowledging their success and wishing them well in the rest of the tournament.
They will not have as easy a time against Scotland as some are predicting, but I do hope they go through to the SF's
Vamos Argentina!!! Fuerza!!!!
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Re:STON Post 45.
Fair point - should have checked the BOD quote.
Mind you, the kicking of Hernandez was very specific. Deep, close to a touch line, in play and with the Argentinian defenders then arriving as a group rather than individals spread out so that they could engulf the ball carrier. EOS seemed to have no answer to this.
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To be fair 2small2slow, Andy Robinson did inherit a team, half of whom promptly retired.
This is the same team, same coach as last year which is what makes the sudden dip in form so hard to fathom. Same team apart that is, from Peter Stringer....
What's the story there? Why drop your master distributer half way through a campaign? Reddan's step-step-pass gave the defense a yard gain on the centres and defused the backline.
Has there been a minor power struggle within the ranks? The conspiracy theories will no doubt abound and I hate (ish) to add fuel to the fire but with BOD's 'bigger than the game itself' demenour nowadays, could he be involved?!
Reaction welcomed!
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Firstly as an Irishman I have to commend Argentina for their incredible spirit, skill and effective tactics. I don't normally like us losing rugby games but my disappointment yesterday was tempered by an admiration for Los Pumas. I live in Spain and would love to see them operating from here in a 7 Nations. The IRB have been arrogant and erroneous in their treatment of Argentina. Perhaps the other 6 Nations should also offer more support for their cause.
As regards EOS, I believe that he has failed in his leadership of Ireland in this World Cup. That said his record was pretty impressive up until last March. Resting his 'A' team for the Argentinian tour was a mistake (you didn't see the English doing that in June 2003!). This was a chance for him to create some competition for places, with both 'A' and 'B' players present. I feel that the players were also guilty of believing the media hype. There appears to be a certain arrogance, an inability to accept responsibility and a tendency to talk too much with little follow up action. The players have essentially allowed internal and external 'voices' interfere with their performance... hence they never reached their full potential.
That said, I believe that the IRFU should let the dust settle. EOS should be asked post World Cup to present his vision and strategy for the next 4 years. If this is not inspiring and doesn't include alot of learning from this World Cup (including why the Soutehrn Hemisphere teams are dominating so much)... then EOS should sacked; even if it is financially costly.
I'm very disappointed in BOD's lack of taste, gratiousness and intelligence after yesterday's game. I'd expect more from a leader and an ambassador for our country. He does seem to be moaning too much. He is a great talent... but one who needs to come down to earth again.
All is not lost... the secret is in the learning from this failure. With the right leadership Ireland can do this; can grow and in 2011 finally perform to our full potential.
Finally, I do hope that Argentina win this World Cup.
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All this whining about easy groups is just sour grapes. When you look at the other home nations then no one had an easier ride. Realistically, Scotland were never going to beat the ABs, Wales weren't going to beat Australis and England were going to get beaten by SA so you could argue Ireland had the only group where they had a genuine chance of beating everyone.
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Watching the first half last night here in Australia, ireland were inept and deserve to lose....Rohan O'Gara might be a prolific point scorer, but when his side needed 4 tries and a win, his performance was pathetic....quite frankly, Ireland got what they deserved by persisting with a negative kicking game....Argentina will make the Semi's...expect the Semi's to be 4 Southern hemisphere teams....
Steve
POM in Melnourne
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As Argentinian, I sincerely thank Marie for comment# 25 and hope the Irish and French Rugby Unions think along your lines.
Only fools keep doing things the same way expecting different results.
Argentina squeezed a victory against France. Right on...in case you didn't know, the Pumas squeezed 5 victories in the last 6 games they played against France and the one they lost, was by a single point.
The Pumas were reason why Ireland created a professional league (after the 1999 RWC)
Perhaps one day you will wake up, your comments remind me of something Cervantes wrote in the Quixote: "The dogs are barking Sancho, is a signal that we are moving"
And relative to South Africa, don't worry sweetheart, I know for sure The Pumas will leave everything on the pitch and who knows, they may win. But first, is Scotland.
Take care, Ed from Argentina living in USA
PS: The Pumas won 1 game on the first 10 matches they played at the RWC, and they won 9 of the last 12.
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ARRGGGGGHHHHH! Can everyone please get off of Ireland鈥檚 back about this world cup! They underperformed in a very difficult group, that鈥檚 all.
Yes expectations were very high but I honestly think deservedly so. 3 Triple Crowns in 4 years and losing the Six Nations twice on points difference, is an achievement and no-one should be undermining Irelands success鈥 by saying the Six Nations is an inferior tournament.
I think most seem to be missing a very important point, the SH are just coming off of the back of their rugby season, where as we (NH) are just commencing ours. This makes a huge difference to the player鈥檚 fitness and skill levels etc鈥 Just look at Australia and South Africa who were beaten fairly convincingly last November by Ireland. It鈥檇 be interesting to hold a World Cup in the winter months and see how well the SH teams鈥 perform.
I can鈥檛 believe that BOD is being criticised for showing some emotion after scoring his try. I鈥檇 put money on that these criticisms are coming from the same people who slated the Irish players for not showing emotion. BOD is one of the greatest players that Ireland has ever produced and I can鈥檛 believe his passion or captaincy is being questioned by some on this forum.
I also think Argentina are not as good as everyone is making out. They only just beat a very poor French side, who incidentally missed 2 easy penalties, which would have seen them win the game. Just getting a bonus point against Georgia; scoring their fourth try with the last play of the game. Also, being in the position that Ireland needed a bonus point to go through to the QF. I think if Ireland only needed the win, then they would have got it.
Argentina have played well and do deserve their place in the QF but they are punching above there weight and haven鈥檛 a hope of winning the Rugby World Cup! Most seem to be critical of Ireland and their underserved hype (whatever) going into the World Cup, why is this not the same for Argentina who have only just beaten an under-performing Irish and French team.
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Pondering further the Irish remind me of the England football team. Ludicrously over hyped as a 'Golden Generation' in spite of never having won anything of any import there is then much wailing and gnashing of teeth when they inevitably fail.
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As an outsider I'm not sure I'm competent to comment on some of the domestic Irish issues at stake here (though given that the Irish Provincial model has regularly been seen as the model way forward into the pro era for small countries with limited player bases, it amazes me that Ireland seem to have ended up in a situation where a seriously out of form player like O'Gara can't be pulled out of the firing line because his apparent understudy- Paul Wallace-isn't playing provincial rugby at outside half- how do Irish central contracts work, for heaven's sake?).
While I can understand the temptation to blame the coach for everything- including a policy which seems to have left Ireland short of back-up players with any real international experience- this misses a couple of points.
Argentina are a very good side with as many players of genuine world class as Ireland. Given the very limited international opportunities they get outside the World Cup it's amazing just how well they play as a team. They've always been powerful up front; now they have some backs of quality they're a formidable outfit. It's long past time that they got proper recognition from the rest of the rugby playing world and a berth in one of the major competitions. My feeling even going into the WC was that Argentina might be the surprise package of the tournament and that Ireland might be in trouble given that there was no way I could see that France would be allowed to be eliminated from their own tournament at the pool stages. Argentina played extremely well- I don't think I've ever seen so many turnovers in a game between two top ten sides- and while their tactics might not have been pretty they certainly worked.
In that context, what would worry me if I was an Ireland supporter was the lack of nous displayed by the players on the field. Why on earth didn't O'Gara take the three points on offer in the first couple of minutes? Why were Ireland throwing the ball round in the way you usually see when a team's ten points in arrears with less than five minutes to go virtually from the kick-off? I know they needed four tries, but surely these were far more likely to come if Ireland played a "normal" game and put points on the board early on. If these were considered tactics by the coach then he's every bit as big an idiot as some of the participants in this thread are suggesting- if not, who was taking the decisions on the field? O'Driscoll as captain? And why was O'Sullivan apparently unable to change things (the blood binning of David wallace would have given a perfect opportunity to get a message on to the pitch before half time). The Argentinian lineout was perhaps their weakest phase of play- why wasn't O'Gara kicking deep into the corner every time he got the ball with Ireland attacking the throw? I can recall him slowly strangling more than one side that way in the past- why not in this game? It would have had more promise than Murphy's attempts to run kicks back which merely served to show up how little he's played with the rest of the side in recent years.
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Post #7
You sound like EO'S's press agent, your post shows you are observant as O'Sullivan is. Namely, ignore what you're actually seeing and keep on spoofing out the same old arrogant tripe. "We'll win this, we'll win that.. etc"
Ireland reverted to form and blew it, whereas Argentina, Scotland and every other team that qualified played to their strengths and played on their opposition weaknesses. Those teams went into each match with a defined game plan and executed it.
We, on the other-hand ran around like headless chickens while our Outhalf imploded, and our coach ignored the fact he had 15 other players available, and choose the same misfiring team for match after match.
I would suggest a bit of humility and respect for the other teams left in the world cup, from you #7 but I doubt you could muster even that.
The only thing to comfort me while our rugby team returns to the bad old days, is the thought of you making a fool of yourself on forums such as this.
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Having read all, it seems to me that although ireland before the Pumas match went overboard saying that they had what it takes , that they were up to the challenge... that they had the skill and the will...and so on.
Yet after the match all the weight goes into disecting why they lost...added to lame remarks like " the Argies didn麓t want to play rugby...they didn麓t want to play in their field.... " (??) imagine loosing 100-0 to the All B麓s and saying in the press cfrence " they didn麓t want to give us the ball!!
If you ask me , it麓s plain and simple ... the field , the ball and the rules are the same for both sides... do your best to win in 80 minutes... period.
Ireland put out it麓s best game , and Argentina beat them, cos they were the better side. No rocket science!
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Well done to the Argies, You played to your strengths, took your opportunities when presented, outplayed and outclassed us.
Now a few observations
1) Why does EOS not use his full squad ? He sends his b-team on a summer tour to Argentina...the majority of which don't get a game in the RWC, This leaves the A-team playing with scrum-machines and Ice-baths in Poland. ...So what did he learn from that..nothing !!, but demotivates the b-team, gives a clear msg to the A-team.."you don't need to try"
2) Where are his game plans, where is the plan A, B, C...Ireland game is so 1-dimensional and easy to read..even I can do it.
3)"You dont become a bad team in 6 months..."...Yes you managed it Eddie..
Poor 6N game in Wales
Scraping by a Scottish team, easily beaten by Italy,
Poor and 1-dimensional agaist the French.
2 losses to Argentina...
Loss to Scotland, should have lost to Italy in ravenhill but for very "dodgy" last minute try...
..and dont get me started on the RWC performances...
4) To be fair...the timing of the RWC doesnt suit the 6N teams...their season hasnt started and many have not kicked a ball in anger in 6 months...whereas...3N's teams are match-fit
Eddie, do the decent thing, step down, make way for new ideas, you have brought this team as far as it can go..and we are all grateful...but its time....
I'm off to the bookies..for a NZ-Argentina final
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"Agentina have got too big for their boots! and I hope SA thrash them. They think they are gods now just because they squeezed a win over France."
If there's something thay both argentinian players and supporters are showing is respect to the other teams.
Everyone is aware of their limitations and nobody believes they are Gods.
Pichot even said: "We are not the best technicians, we are not even the most physical, but we play with heart"
Against Scotland will be a very difficult match, I really hope the Pumas can beat them.
Remember that we are talking about a team that gets together four or five times per year, sometimes not even for a week... players that had to threaten to quit the Pumas, almost a year ago, in order to be heard by the UAR (Argentinian Rugby Union) when the UAR wanted to fire Loffreda and when they tried to get the professional players to sign contract whilst leaving the amateurs (like Agulla who scored against Ireland) without a contract.
Everything is hard for them, they receive little to no support from the UAR, no support from the IRB and they are not part of an annual competition.
How can they believe they are Gods when everything they accomplished they did it with with effort, heart and guts?
Sorry for my english, I know it sucks... but I guess it's better than your spanish ;-) :-D
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yo killian, i agree with you to a large degree. i would revert you to some of my comments at 53. I am dismayed at how little o'sullivan has learnt from his experiences in past tournaments. he has truly failed us this time. in the last world cup he was exposed against france...i mean it is hilarious jhow everyone seems to forget that he pretty much made the same mistakes 4 years ago. the difference was that the team seemed to have some balls and actually want to play for each other. denis leamy getting knocked back yesterday summed it up for me..there is a guy who would never let that happen to him for munster...there was hesitation in nearly everything we did and when you have got a coach who doesnt seem to learn from mistakes made in the past (lions 2005, wc 03 etc) and who hesitates about making necessary substitutions etc, then i cannot see how he has a leg to stand on. surely the irfu report must take into account the players' feelings on the matter. i doubt he has the backing on the squad
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Why has nobody mentioned Geordan Murphy's wince-inducing efforts to chase his own up and unders? The figurehead of Irish under achievement and misplaced self belief managed to dive from the merest Argentinian contact no less than THREE times, trying to con the ref into awarding a penalty. Never seen anything like it, and the ref laughed off each effort.
With O'Driscoll's token petulance and Roy Keane-esque haranguing of the ref now a trademark of Irish rugby, along with Murphy's diving, BOD's hideously charmless post match comments, O'Gara's general demeanour and EOS's famously spineless and underhand labelling of Nathan Hines as an attempted murdered in the 6N, nobody is weeping for Irish rugby today. As it sounds like the team barely speak to each other, I can't imagine there are too many tears there either.
One major positive - not a chance in hell of EOS coaching the next Lions tour. If that does happen, I guarantee that, following on from Woodward's calamitous reign, the Lions tours will discontinue after the next one.
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Re 65/Killian - what exactly did BOD say to offend you post match? As per my earlier post ITV edited his comments very unfairly. I would also be interested to see what people's thoughts are re Stuart Barnes (not a patch on Greenwood in my view)
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After Irelands poor World Cup and EOS with a four year contract and a large bias towards southern players we need to encourage all young irish players of all backgrounds and from Ulster to go tomorrow and change their names by putting an O in front. If Humphreys was O'Humphreys he would have been at the worls cup.
We would have had an alternative to ROG who has to put his hand up and accept he had a poor WC and would have understood being dropped or replaced at half time in all 4 games.
Fot the benefit of the Irish game to go forward EOS and most of the Irish board who give him the contract have to be gentlemen and resign with no pay off . But then they are not gentlemen or have Irish Rugby at heart, they are back slappers. We need the loyal Irish fan to keep their hands in there pockets and watch Irish Rugby from the comfort of the TV till we have a forward looking coach and board.
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After Irelands poor World Cup and EOS with a four year contract and a large bias towards southern players we need to encourage all young irish players of all backgrounds and from Ulster to go tomorrow and change their names by putting an O in front. If Humphreys was O'Humphreys he would have been at the worls cup.
We would have had an alternative to ROG who has to put his hand up and accept he had a poor WC and would have understood being dropped or replaced at half time in all 4 games.
Fot the benefit of the Irish game to go forward EOS and most of the Irish board who give him the contract have to be gentlemen and resign with no pay off . But then they are not gentlemen or have Irish Rugby at heart, they are back slappers. We need the loyal Irish fan to keep their hands in there pockets and watch Irish Rugby from the comfort of the TV till we have a forward looking coach and board.
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Post no 69- Fair enough for the ABs etc but the Argentinians nearly all play in the NH (including Ireland.....)- and as poster 72 points out, they've held together as a team almost despite their Union rather than because of them.
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auzaider no 72- apologies for whoever made that apallingly ignorant and bitter remark about argentina. argentina have been the most consistent team in the wc so far and that includes nz and sa. they fully deserved their victories over us and france and i will cheer them on for the rest of the tournament. hernandez is an amaing player. what i would say id they should watch their discipline as there were a few off the ball incidents esp involving geordan murphy. however it is mean spirited to say that argentina are too big for their boots etc etc. get over the loss and i hope argentina stuff sa if they meet them as it would be a great result for them. the fans were fantastic and we have no one to blame but ourselves for the situation.los pumas deserve the utmost respect.
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Post no 69- Fair enough for the ABs etc but the Argentinians nearly all play in the NH (including Ireland.....)- and as poster 72 points out, they've held together as a team almost despite their Union rather than because of them.
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I think it is harsh to call for Eddie's head. He got some things wrong - Geordan Murphy and Neil Best's absences were mistakes in my view and whatever preparation they did seems to have exhausted them beyond repair. However, in Argentina and France we were well beaten by two superior teams, who could beat us on any given occasion. No massive surprise.
I think the problem is that continually beating Wales, Scotland, Italy and England over the last few years (with the exception of Wales' magnificent 2005 team) has led us to believe that we have a strong team. We believe our own press. Beating the might of the English pack, who in Croke Park were as poor a pack as England has ever put together.
The fact is that we never beat France and at the moment they are the only half decent northern hemishpere team. After the pummelling they will receive from the All Blacks, the gulf between the hemishperes will be apparent.
Wales were knocked out by Fiji, England run close by Samoa and Tonga and humiliated by South Africa. Scotland pummelled by New Zealand, but happy with the performance. Italy - earnest but with very little behind the scrum. The six nations is as weak as it ever has been and that is why this "golden generation" of Irish players has done so well. A nice backline, a decent back row is all a team needs to compete against such poor opposition.
Well done to Argentina. They will probably now make it to the semis, where they will get stuffed by a South African team who are not afraid to run from defence at pace.
Then will Northern Hemishpere rugby realise what a dire state it is in?
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I think it is harsh to call for Eddie's head. He got some things wrong - Geordan Murphy and Neil Best's absences were mistakes in my view and whatever preparation they did seems to have exhausted them beyond repair. However, in Argentina and France we were well beaten by two superior teams, who could beat us on any given occasion. No massive surprise.
I think the problem is that continually beating Wales, Scotland, Italy and England over the last few years (with the exception of Wales' magnificent 2005 team) has led us to believe that we have a strong team. We believe our own press. Beating the might of the English pack, who in Croke Park were as poor a pack as England has ever put together.
The fact is that we never beat France and at the moment they are the only half decent northern hemishpere team. After the pummelling they will receive from the All Blacks, the gulf between the hemishperes will be apparent.
Wales were knocked out by Fiji, England run close by Samoa and Tonga and humiliated by South Africa. Scotland pummelled by New Zealand, but happy with the performance. Italy - earnest but with very little behind the scrum. The six nations is as weak as it ever has been and that is why this "golden generation" of Irish players has done so well. A nice backline, a decent back row is all a team needs to compete against such poor opposition.
Well done to Argentina. They will probably now make it to the semis, where they will get stuffed by a South African team who are not afraid to run from defence at pace.
Then will Northern Hemishpere rugby realise what a dire state it is in?
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Why not including Argentina in The 6 Nations? Next year's sixth (Italy?)would play Los Pumas and the winner (Los Pumas?) of that match enters 2009 6 Nations. And then again, the sixth (Scotland?) against (Italy?). This way there is a punishment to the last team and the level gets improved. Why playing in 6 Nations instead of Tri Nations? because most of our players play in Europe. We might play in Spain, we don't care. But let us play. Hern谩ndez, F. Contepomi, Pichot, Longo, Ledesma, world class players.
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is something rotten in (denmark) ireland.
we allow them to print their own flag.
we allow them to write their own anthem.
and we wonder why they look confused,tired dejected,and beaten.
that is until we realese they are paid by the printers and the songwriters. oh well.
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is something rotten in (denmark) ireland.
we allow them to print their own flag.
we allow them to write their own anthem.
and we wonder why they look confused,tired dejected,and beaten.
that is until we realese they are paid by the printers and the songwriters. oh well.
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To Gavin; a lot of your comments about the Irish side were justified, but I wonder just how confident England will be, facing them in the six nations next year. Ireland have improved over the last ten years, and improved beyond what we thought was possible back then. I will think of you when they beat you in the spring, and indeed look forward to the pasting England will Recieve at the hands (and feet) of the Australians. Look at the dejected faces of the Irish and remember it will be you at the weekend
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Argentina's coach Marcelo Loffreda has formed a pretty good XV. Not just the traditional 2, 8, 9, 10 & 15, but good players all across the board(*). The Irish should have known this before coming to this World Cup with their "B" team.
B team?
O'Sullivan said yesterday after their defeat (reported by The Guardian: "we didn't bring our A team". He thought that his barely prepared men would get through just because they were very good in a not too distant past.
Fortunately his thesis dropped down short of his dreams and the Irish (sorry, no pun intended) are back at home now, still asking themselves what could have happened. They should have watched the videos of our performances in this cup as well as those of the prior test matches. Our Pumas have still the hardest nuts yet
to crack but they have shown their class already. Why is it then that the Pumas are not invited to the 6 nations?
And, btw, why is it that a united kingdom brings 4 teams, one for each of the kingdoms united under a single crown?
(*) I played rugby for my school (Cardinal Newman)since I was 7 (9th division, 1947) but left seven years later (3rd division, 1954). Some of us still hear our sportsmaster (the late Brother Gallagher) crying like mad "tackle him low, tackle him low"
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Thank you to all the gentlemen who have had the decency to express their admiration for what the Pumas have achieved thus far. I would like to highlight the attitude of the Irish, as the vast majority have been extremely gracious and have shown what sportsmanship is all about at a time when they are feeling pretty sorry for their team's inexplicable performances. I am an Argentine, and am understandably very proud of my team. I would like to point out a couple of things : Firstly it was the British - and the Irish in no small measure - who have had the greatest influence on Argentine Rugby for nearly a century (I know, my father played for Argentina, not yet known as the Pumas, in the 1930's). It was they who instilled the spirit of the game into the "Argies". I was particularly gratified a while back to read Les Cusworth's comments on the players and their spirit. Secondly, I would agree with the comment that you could almost sense the game was over at the singing of the national anthems; the game meant more to the Pumas than to the irish for one simple reason. Yes, we are a proud and passionate nation, oft considered arrogant by our South American neighbours; but there is more at stake here than just winning Rugby matches. For too long we have been considered the "bad boys" of world sport...ill-disciplined, ill-tempered, un-sportsmanlike cheaters, a label brought on us by the actions and behaviour of many of our teams (mostly in football) in the past. What is also important here is that this team is trying to show the world (along with our Women's hockey, our tennis players, and our basketball) another face of Argentina - and judging by the reactions of most of the media and the comments I have been reading, they appear to be succeeding. One last thing...I rather suspect that Felipe Contepomi's "cupping his ears in a triumphalist manner", as suggesteed by one of the writers here, was more a response to the very poor sportsmanship shown by many in the crowd by booing at every attempt he made to kick at goal. Where were the cheers after a success ? Again thanks to you Irish for your kind words, and I for one will look forward to a resurgence in your rugby, and will cheer for you when my team is not playing.
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Thank you to all the gentlemen who have had the decency to express their admiration for what the Pumas have achieved thus far. I would like to highlight the attitude of the Irish, as the vast majority have been extremely gracious and have shown what sportsmanship is all about at a time when they are feeling pretty sorry for their team's inexplicable performances. I am an Argentine, and am understandably very proud of my team. I would like to point out a couple of things : Firstly it was the British - and the Irish in no small measure - who have had the greatest influence on Argentine Rugby for nearly a century (I know, my father played for Argentina, not yet known as the Pumas, in the 1930's). It was they who instilled the spirit of the game into the "Argies". I was particularly gratified a while back to read Les Cusworth's comments on the players and their spirit. Secondly, I would agree with the comment that you could almost sense the game was over at the singing of the national anthems; the game meant more to the Pumas than to the irish for one simple reason. Yes, we are a proud and passionate nation, oft considered arrogant by our South American neighbours; but there is more at stake here than just winning Rugby matches. For too long we have been considered the "bad boys" of world sport...ill-disciplined, ill-tempered, un-sportsmanlike cheaters, a label brought on us by the actions and behaviour of many of our teams (mostly in football) in the past. What is also important here is that this team is trying to show the world (along with our Women's hockey, our tennis players, and our basketball) another face of Argentina - and judging by the reactions of most of the media and the comments I have been reading, they appear to be succeeding. One last thing...I rather suspect that Felipe Contepomi's "cupping his ears in a triumphalist manner", as suggesteed by one of the writers here, was more a response to the very poor sportsmanship shown by many in the crowd by booing at every attempt he made to kick at goal. Where were the cheers after a success ? Again thanks to you Irish for your kind words, and I for one will look forward to a resurgence in your rugby, and will cheer for you when my team is not playing.
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Re. 78, BOD's comment re Argentina not wishing to play in their own half. Furthermore I believe that he erred in his comments during match week with France regarding the French media/O'Gara rumours and revenge/another issue to add to the list. Yes the media were out of order but he should have focused on making his views heard by way of the game itself.
I do believe that BOD is the best player that Ireland has ever produced but he does need to come down to earth, and to focus himself and the team on action and not meaningless rhetoric and verbal promises. Simply all the talk was not matched by the team performances. Also looking back on EOS's interviews before the Argentinian game, if you watch his body language and the words used closely, he reveals that he didn't believe that his team would achieve the task. Both he and the team lacked honest confidence; despite all the 'fighting talk'. Their interviews were not dishonest, but neither were they honest. They can say what they like to the media but at the end oif the day their performances suggest that they have not been honest with themselves.
It seemed to me that Argentina, France and even Georgia were physically stronger. Just look at the number of turnovers... especially yesterday. Ireland have always been excellent at scavenging... this was not evident at all in the world cup. They seemed to lack hunger and confidence. I do believe that they have the talent but there was something wrong with their attitude and their behaviour. Just look at players like O'Gara, Leamy, Easterby, O'Callaghan, O'Connell and D'Arcy for example... they were well below par.
All in all, Ireland were in 'Cloud Cookoo Land', as evidenced by their lack of tactical, mental or physical competitiveness. The fault lies with both EOS and the players. The result has been humbling... if they can come down to earth now, learn from it all, take a nucleus from the exisitng side and blood 5-7 new players, then the future can be rosy again. But only if they are honest with themselves and the rest of the world.
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Post #69
Niall, Argentina have won something like 13 out of 15 games against 6N opposition. They are on par with France and better than the other 6N sides, they outplayed Ireland totally, you never looked like winning on sunday.
If Scotland beat them, it will be a huge achievement. Ireland scored due to 2 BOD moments, Scotland dont have one. Good luck in the QF Scotland
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53, you are letting your bitterness at not winning rub away with you. You are fed up playing ' crappy Scotland ' in the 6N which you want scrapped. As has been rightly pointed out, Ireland until recent years were the whipping boys of the old 5N, now it seems some overdue, if rather limited success, means you have the right to dismiss a Nation which has beaten you far more times than the reverse is not worthy of a fixture against you. Thankfully you are not typical of Irish fans who are much loked in Scotland, so go away and grow up.
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Gutted.
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Re No. 78, BOD 's comment re Argentina not wishing to play in their own half. Furthermore his comments prior to the French game (regarding the O'Gara rumours being another one to add to the list for motivation/revenge) were best unsaid at the time. He should have been focused on letting their on the pitch performance provide the right response (notwithstanding the fact that the French media were out of order). BOD is the best player that Ireland has ever produced but he needs to take a good look at himself and his level of humility before he can once again be a wonderful ambassador for our country.
If you study EOS' interviews prior to the Argentinian game, it is evident from his body language and his choice of words that he actually didn't believe that Ireland would achieve the 'impossible' task. The players and EOS simply lacked confidence. Their rhetoric wasn't dishonest per se, but neither was it honest... worst of all I feel that they were dishonest with themselves through their actions... i.e. their performance on the pitch.
Ireland appeared to me to be lacking in physical strength against Argentina, France and even Georgia; just look at the number of turnovers. We are usually excellent at scavenging but this all but disappeared in the world cup. This is further proof of a problem with attitude, desire and hunger. The performances of O'Callaghan, O' Gara, D'Arcy, Leamy and O'Connell were well below par and lacked real bite and confidence.
Furthermore the squad appeared to be lacking their usual good humour and connection with the public. They were isolated in the countryside near Bordeaux. They seemed rather bored. My view is that we are a rather sociable race that is best suited to a more informal environment. EOS and his staff needed to ensure the right environment to support the mental and physical preparation of the players. This was clearly not the case. Professionalism yes but not at the cost of real personality. Again the set up didn't seem honest in this regard either.
So rather than blaming others, the media and circumstances, EOS, BOD and the team should leave 'Cloud Cookoo Land' behind and return down to earth. Learn from the mistakes, take responsibility, make appropriate changes, blood new talent and add to the existing nucleus, foster an open, honest and informal club-like environment... and in 2011 we will show our true worth through honest action as opposed to 'bull-shit'.
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Firstly let us state that the Argentinians deserve to be where they are they beat BOTH France and Ireland fair and square absoluetly no doubt about it.
How many teams can beat France at home? not many ireland have I think managed it once in the last twenty years or something BOD's famous hat trick and David Humphries conversion AND Argentina have beaten France at home recently before so the opening night result was no fluke make no mistake about that.
Last night Argentina played smart rugby and Ireland had no answer our number 10 had gone AWOL and was not capable of turning the game around which is the job of the fly half in particular to read the game and think on the hoof all tournament O'gara did not step up to the plate. BOD cannot win on his own but why was Murphy only played in the last game when he clearly gives Ireland a second attacking option and scored what so far is one of the tries of the tournament - it would seem that O'Sullivan let personality issues cloud his judgement on that one.
O'Gara must be dropped as clealry he has off the field problems that need sorted and his game has gone AWOL so who are the options - Paddy Wallace who has not got a great deal of experience at Heineken cup level as he plays second fiddle to David Humphries at Ulster. Ian Humphries - Davids younger brother plays for Leicester and is developing well in hindisght a bit of an omen as he was playing for Leicester at fly half the night they beat Munster at thomond park in the HC and perhaps the start of O'Garas decline could be traced back to that night
If O'Sullivan is to keep his job he had better get his thinking cap on and start building a team with more depth and perhaps some players wings need clipped as it would seem player power is a problem in some of the Northern Hemisphere teams
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Ireland will be back, I'm Scottish and I expect an (slowly) improving Scotland to be beaten at Croker next year (as I do all visitors to Dublin). Thats part of the problem, Ireland at home are fierce, passionate and driven and play great rugby, away in this WC they were a team lost and soul less. EOS looks confused and not bothered by whats going on, he's picking favourites and he's got to change. (John Hayes!)
99% of Irish people are not arrogant in the slightest, it seems most of the ones that are post nonsense on this Blog!
Stop picking on Scotland, we are not going to say sorry for getting through to the Quarters! Italy robbed? they got exatly what they deserved, had they played more rugby outside of 12, they would have taken us. Their fault not ours!
We've got nothing to lose against the favourites Argentina and don't we just love it. (Well done Argentina, a true team that is shaking up the world with pride!)
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I think Agustin Pichots comments were disgraceful after the match. He is not very graceful winner. He has the biggest chip on his shoulders ever. If Ireland only had to win against Argentina that result would have been different for sure. Don't count your chickens Agustin. I really hope Scotland beat them for our Celtic pride!
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When I watched Ireland beating Scotland earlier this year I said that Ireland looked like a team struggling to keep where they are and Scotland look like a team that's going somewhere. The Irish lad joked "Yeh Glasgow" which was funny but like the Irish team he believed his own hype and missed the cold reality. EOS's time is up. He forged a good team but doesn't know what to do with an ageing team. His accusation of 'attempted murder' by Nathan Hines proves in itself that he has lost the plot. He is inflexible and has lost the plot - time for Ireland to look forward.
As for Scotland. The Italy game was like the Somme. Italy's only try came after an unspotted illegal tackle which resulted in a spill and the consequent lucky bounce which would have been capitalised on by any team in the competition. They were guilty of a lot of off the balls that the ref missed and got 10 more points when the ref sinbinned a Scot for an offense which was nothing compared to what the Italians had been getting up to all through the game. The difference being Italians complaining to the ref.. One attempt to break the line was stopped by an Italian on the ground sticking his leg up and tripping the Scottish attacking player; again unpunished.
Scotland played the conditions perfectly. It was always going to be stodgy cause it was pouring down. Parks kicked fantastically well for position and we waited for the penalties which came and Paterson punished them. The massive Italian pack never got the better of Scotland's and that bodes well for Argentina who play not dissimilarly to Italy. Hadden has built up to the competition gradually. He has not asked the team to do anything more than was required. The team spirit is excellent and there is talent there that will be a force, in the next 6 nations, to be reckoned with.
If it was not for the ref on Saturday, Italy would have been nowhere. They cheated and still couldn't win. So, credit to the lads for doing what was required given the conditions and playing a team who were after all ranked higher than us.
I think on Sunday you will see a Scotland team that none of you recognise. We can score tries but have had no need to as yet so that was not the objective.
Smart, intelligent coaching and a team fighting for each other. Ireland don't have that and that's why we're in the quarters and you're not. And all this tripe about Argentina waltzing passed Scotland is just flannel designed to make it sound that Ireland were beaten by a team whose level was surprisingly good - that's bollox.
Argentina are better than Italy and will not cheat to that extent so I predict a tight game which will be a kicking game again. Scotland can take them but now we need to show a little more of what we have up our sleeves.
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When I watched Ireland beating Scotland earlier this year I said that Ireland looked like a team struggling to keep where they are and Scotland look like a team that's going somewhere. The Irish lad joked "Yeh Glasgow" which was funny but like the Irish team he believed his own hype and missed the cold reality. EOS's time is up. He forged a good team but doesn't know what to do with a ageing team. His accusation of 'attempted murder' by Nathan Hines proves in itself that he has lost the plot. He is inflexible and has lost the plot - time for Ireland to look forward.
As for Scotland. The Italy game was like the Somme. Italy's only try came after an unspotted illegal tackle which resulted in a spill and the consequent lucky bounce which would have been capitalised on by any team in the competition. They were guilty of a lot of off the balls that the ref missed and got 10 more points when the ref sinbinned a Scot for an offense which was nothing compared to what the Italians had been getting up to all through the game. The difference being Italians complaining to the ref.. One attempt to break the line was stopped by an Italian on the ground sticking his leg up and tripping the Scottish attacking player; again unpunished.
Scotland played the conditions perfectly. It was always going to be stodgy cause it was pouring down. Parks kicked fantastically well for position and we waited for the penalties which came and Paterson punished them. The massive Italian pack never got the better of Scotland's and that bodes well for Argentina who play not dissimilarly to Italy. Hadden has built up to the competition gradually. He has not asked the team to do anything more than was required. The team spirit is excellent and there is talent there that will be a force, in the next 6 nations, to be reckoned with.
If it was not for the ref on Saturday, Italy would have been nowhere. They cheated and still couldn't win. So, credit to the lads for doing what was required given the conditions and playing a team who were after all ranked higher than us.
I think on Sunday you will see a Scotland team that none of you recognise. We can score tries but have had no need to as yet so that was not the objective.
Smart, intelligent coaching and a team fighting for each other. Ireland don't have that and that's why we're in the quarters and you're not. And all this tripe about Argentina waltzing passed Scotland is just flannel designed to make it sound that Ireland were beaten by a team whose level was surprisingly good - that's bollox.
Argentina are better than Italy and will not cheat to that extent so I predict a tight game which will be a kicking game again. Scotland can take them but now we need to show a little more of what we have up our sleeves.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. How can you evaluate the teams performance as a whole when the No. 10 is so bad that they never get to go through their phases and end up on their back feet because he's kicking directly to their most dangerous players for 60 of the 80 minutes played?
And dismiss the Scots at your own peril. Argentina are a well rounded team, but if the Scots No. 10 facilitates running through phases and has a half way decent day with the boot, rather than kicking the ball straight to Argentina's best players, anything can happen. Also, Scotland was tactically brilliant in how they played the group. Conceded to the All Blacks with a B team that enhanced their depth while focusing on playing presumably France in the quarters. Now they have Argentina. And as I said, if their No.10 has a decent game, Argentina will be in trouble. Which, when it happens, will prove that Paddy Wallace should have been given a chance in this tournament!
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Firstly let us state that the Argentinians deserve to be where they are they beat BOTH France and Ireland fair and square absoluetly no doubt about it.
How many teams can beat France at home? not many ireland have I think managed it once in the last twenty years or something BOD's famous hat trick and David Humphries conversion AND Argentina have beaten France at home recently before so the opening night result was no fluke make no mistake about that.
Last night Argentina played smart rugby and Ireland had no answer our number 10 had gone AWOL and was not capable of turning the game around which is the job of the fly half in particular to read the game and think on the hoof all tournament O'gara did not step up to the plate. BOD cannot win on his own but why was Murphy only played in the last game when he clearly gives Ireland a second attacking option and scored what so far is one of the tries of the tournament - it would seem that O'Sullivan let personality issues cloud his judgement on that one.
O'Gara must be dropped as clealry he has off the field problems that need sorted and his game has gone AWOL so who are the options - Paddy Wallace who has not got a great deal of experience at Heineken cup level as he plays second fiddle to David Humphries at Ulster. Ian Humphries - Davids younger brother plays for Leicester and is developing well in hindisght a bit of an omen as he was playing for Leicester at fly half the night they beat Munster at thomond park in the HC and perhaps the start of O'Garas decline could be traced back to that night
If O'Sullivan is to keep his job he had better get his thinking cap on and start building a team with more depth and perhaps some players wings need clipped as it would seem player power is a problem in some of the Northern Hemisphere teams
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I think it is time for EOS to go, for the good of Irish rugby. The Irish performances at this world cup have been stale and lacklustre. When a coach openly admits he can't put his finger on why things went wrong you have got to worry. He has taken Ireland so far but maybe that's as far as his ability will allow.
If Ireland aspire to be a top-class rugby nation then they have to expect higher standards. You couldn't see a southern hemisphere coach keeping his job if his team put in displays like that. It is obvious there was some disquiet in the squad and EOS getting that contract signed before the tournament probably made things even worse.
Someone needs to be brought in with some fresh ideas, where every member of the squad feels they will get a fair shot at getting on the team. You cannot have a ridiculous situation where one of your most talented backs, Murphy, doesn't even make the bench for the France game. All because the coach has a problem with him.
EOS, thanks for the triple crown memories, but time to go.
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If I may be excused for returning to a point I've made before, the consolation for fans in this part of the world must be that a minor rugby union nation is progressing so impressively. Perhaps they may be allowed into the 6 (7) Nations now? As a League fan I'm genuinely envious that so many 'minnows' have shown such promise in this World Cup.
Disappointing, though, to see postings criticising individual backs, like English fans do. I've rarely seen an international team so starved of possession as the Irish were, especially in the second half, so there's no way the backs could do anything at all.
Just one point though, outstanding though the Argentinian pack was, were they allowed too much leeway by the referee? There were countless instances of them miraculously winning the rucks after scrambles in which no forward was on his feet.
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If I may be excused for returning to a point I've made before, the consolation for fans in this part of the world must be that a minor rugby union nation is progressing so impressively. Perhaps they may be allowed into the 6 (7) Nations now? As a League fan I'm genuinely envious that so many 'minnows' have shown such promise in this World Cup.
Disappointing, though, to see postings criticising individual backs, like English fans do. I've rarely seen an international team so starved of possession as the Irish were, especially in the second half, so there's no way the backs could do anything at all.
Just one point though, outstanding though the Argentinian pack was, were they allowed too much leeway by the referee? There were countless instances of them miraculously winning the rucks after scrambles in which no forward was on his feet.
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re #1 chris ,
This 'fella' hernadez has been an excellent player for stade francais for many years. His performance against Leicester last yr was unreal, he more or less kept them in the game wit some ferocios tackling.
Argentina were good but I expect scotland to put in a better challenge than we did so a semi is possible! I thought from the first round of matches they looked the best of the home nations and I havnt changed my mind. One thing is for certain dere will only a one or two point winning margin.
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Three disasters make a wake:
1. the coach - failures in preparation (the Argentina tour, the warm up games) are manifest; failures to use the squad on rotation as every other nation did are criminal; failure to identify failures on the day and make the changes are terminal and Ireland ran into the buffers big time on this account - the definition of madness is to do the same thing over and over again and yet expect different results - we have a coach whose approach is madness: he has to go
2. the captain - on the field the coach can do little to change what happens - that is the captain's responsibility. Yet here BOD - undoubtedly a great player (but maybe not the world's best?) - is obviously not a great captain, and there was no evidence either in the run up to the RWC or in the train crash the it has become that we had a captain on the field - there is a vacancy here that needs to be filled - the 'best' player is not always the best captain
3. the players - the coach is not responsible for the time after time habit of the Irish team to gift possession away through poor kicks from hand, poor option choice (to run from deep with no support against a massed defence) or turnover in the loose - this is a matter of basic technique and if well paid professionals cannot meet the basic standards on the game they do not deserve to wear the shirt - for many of the first choice 15 this must be the farewell tour.
for the future - welcome to the SH RWC - with the NH teams playing in the Shield tournament from the outset - at least that way we will not be fleeced for tickets for an apology for a sporting spectacle
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Three disasters make a wake:
1. the coach - failures in preparation (the Argentina tour, the warm up games) are manifest; failures to use the squad on rotation as every other nation did are criminal; failure to identify failures on the day and make the changes are terminal and Ireland ran into the buffers big time on this account - the definition of madness is to do the same thing over and over again and yet expect different results - we have a coach whose approach is madness: he has to go
2. the captain - on the field the coach can do little to change what happens - that is the captain's responsibility. Yet here BOD - undoubtedly a great player (but maybe not the world's best?) - is obviously not a great captain, and there was no evidence either in the run up to the RWC or in the train crash the it has become that we had a captain on the field - there is a vacancy here that needs to be filled - the 'best' player is not always the best captain
3. the players - the coach is not responsible for the time after time habit of the Irish team to gift possession away through poor kicks from hand, poor option choice (to run from deep with no support against a massed defence) or turnover in the loose - this is a matter of basic technique and if well paid professionals cannot meet the basic standards on the game they do not deserve to wear the shirt - for many of the first choice 15 this must be the farewell tour.
for the future - welcome to the SH RWC - with the NH teams playing in the Shield tournament from the outset - at least that way we will not be fleeced for tickets for an apology for a sporting spectacle
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If I may be excused for returning to a point I've made before, the consolation for fans in this part of the world must be that a minor rugby union nation is progressing so impressively. Perhaps they may be allowed into the 6 (7) Nations now? As a League fan I'm genuinely envious that so many 'minnows' have shown such promise in this World Cup.
Disappointing, though, to see postings criticising individual backs, like English fans do. I've rarely seen an international team so starved of possession as the Irish were, especially in the second half, so there's no way the backs could do anything at all.
Just one point though, outstanding though the Argentinian pack was, were they allowed too much leeway by the referee? There were countless instances of them miraculously winning the rucks after scrambles in which no forward was on his feet.
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We Argentines are bloody ecstatic right now, I'll tell you that! It's not everyday a lesser rugby country manages to top a group! (yes, of course we're a lesser rugby country). But we're also extremely wary of the optimists... I've been doing a fair amount of blog and forum reading today and let me tell you, it's not us that are proclaiming ourselves finalists. It's everyone else. Local papers here celebrate what we've done so far, but don't expect much more.
I just hope we keep playing well and nobly, win or lose.
Oh and BTW, Argies frequently route for Ireland whenever the Pumas arent playing. I bet most of you didn't know that. :)
Cheers!
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Why won't you stop blaming your players, some of them played a brave game (including Murphy who kept his nerve under heavy bombardment); why can't you humbly admit the obvious instead of believing in some unexplainable lapsus robbing you of your "real level": Argentina beat France, Argentina beat Ireland, ergo, Argentina is playing inspired and powerful rugby; Argentina is to blame.
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As an argentinean ex rugbier, im very proud of this team. But we cant cheat ourself. we dot belong to the top nations, we don't have serious international competition and our budget is the tenth part of England麓s or France麓s.
When this great group of players and coaches get retired, we will be again the 8th or 9th position in the world ranking. And, sadly, that will be soon.
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Argentina's coach Marcelo Loffreda has formed a pretty good XV. Not just the traditional 2, 8, 9, 10 & 15, but good players all across the board(*). The Irish should have known this before coming to this World Cup with their "B" team.
B team?
O'Sullivan said on sunday after their defeat (reported by The Guardian: "we didn't bring our A team" (Go raibh maith agat!). He thought that his barely prepared men would get through just because they were very good in a not too distant past.
Fortunately his thesis dropped down short of his dreams and the Irish (sorry, no pun intended) are back at home now, still asking themselves what could have happened. They should have watched the videos of our performances in this cup as well as those of the prior test matches. Our Pumas have still the hardest nuts yet
to crack but they have shown their class already. Why is it then that the Pumas are not invited to the 6 nations?
And, btw, why is it that a united kingdom brings 4 teams, one for each of the kingdoms united under a single crown?
(*) I played rugby for my school (Cardinal Newman)since I was 7 (9th division, 1947) but left seven years later (3rd division, 1954). Some of us still hear our sportsmaster (the late Brother Gallagher) crying like mad "tackle him low, tackle him low"
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