As long as Wales beat the English
- 15 Mar 07, 10:51 AM
Cardiff - I took a fair bit of abuse in a previous blog as people seemed to think that my desire to see Wales beat England made me some sort of atavistic cave dweller.
With the big Cardiff showdown now looming large, I’m still clearly smarting as I’ve decided to revisit the touchy subject.
Now I don’t believe that a win over our oldest rivals should be Wales’ ultimate ambition, or that it would completely make up for a for Gareth Jenkins’ team. But it would set the world to rights, if only for a short while – and here’s why…
My early memories of Wales v England games throughout the ‘70s and even the ‘80s were based around the simple assumption of Welsh victory.
I can still remember the feeling of bemusement as the media built up England as favourites ahead of the Twickenham clash in 1988. I just expected Wales to win. And they did.
But some sort of horrible historical aberration after that sent England on the path to world domination and turned their meetings with Wales into an annual torment.
There have been just four matches to lift the despair in those long 19 years since, and on each occasion my celebrations have had to be somewhat curtailed.
1989, Wales 12-9 England
A sixth-form trip with to a (near Hungerford) was the somewhat unlikely venue as Wales – now huge underdogs - defended their 26-year unbeaten Arms Park record against the growing England juggernaut.
I’d somewhat foolishly signed up for the weekend without realising Wales were playing (hey, we live by our mistakes…), but was later assured that I could see the match.
On arrival on Friday evening, we quickly realised that our monastic hosts’ plans for a spiritual and cleansing weekend had made no provision for an orgy of Anglo-Welsh rivalry.
But collective sulking and pages of fervent messages in the retreat’s prayer book pleading for the TV room to be unlocked finally produced the miracle we needed.
Having shockingly missed the anthems and the first 10 minutes of the game, we were finally rewarded when Mike Hall delivered perhaps the greatest try in Welsh history (I only wonder why he never made a career out of basketball…).
But post-match celebrations were somewhat sober.
1993, Wales 10-9 England
Sixth form behind, I had started in 1991 – and endured two years of Five Nations torment from my new-found English friends!
What was worse, none of them were even rugby fans. The only game that interested them was seeing their team give Wales increasingly predictable hammerings.
Now Five Nations days were always one of the highlights of the social calendar, a lively day in on campus followed by a trip to the .
But this time I was unable to face another ritual humiliation at the hands of the men in white and decided to head home to , carrying the usual bin bag full of dirty washing for my mum.
As Ieuan Evans roared past a dumbfounded Rory Underwood, my parents’ living room seemed a lonely place, and even a spectacular home-cooked meal was slim consolation.
I couldn’t even text the Saeson in Swansea with my thoughts. Mobile phones had yet to be invented in Wales.
1999, Wales 32-31 England
In the summer of 1998 I was somehow given a job with a publishing firm in England, my prejudices clearly cooled enough in the close-season to make me seem like a reasonable human being.
Living in a rancid shared house in Stroud and lodging with a fervent Gloucester supporter was not a good environment to be in as Wales kicked off their Championship with losses against Ireland and Scotland.
Things got better with the wins over Italy and France, but a tactical retreat to the parental home in again seemed to be the best option before a ‘home’ game against a seemingly unstoppable England side at Wembley.
I confess to being somewhat excited as Scott Gibbs waltzed over for his famous score.
But when I arrived back at the cold house in Stroud that Sunday night there was no sign of the Gloucester fan.
2005, Wales 11-9 England
As Wales began their much-anticipated I was living in Cardiff - almost within ear-shot of the Millennium Stadium – and working as a sports reporter for Ö÷²¥´óÐã Wales.
The atmosphere had been building for weeks, you could taste it in the air.
But when Gavin Henson memorably and sent over his , I was four miles from the action in the office in Llandaff.
As the mother of all parties kicked off in the city centre, I was preparing the post-match quotes for the website and Ceefax. Ah, the glamour of the Ö÷²¥´óÐã…
So, with a weekend off to look forward to, if Wales win you’ll have to forgive me if I’m seen round the streets of Cardiff in a somewhat excitable state.
But I have the nagging fear that Wales’ next win over the men in white will have to wait until I’m again safely away from anywhere entertaining.
Wales 27-18 England
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Don't worry about wanting to beat the English. Every other team in the UK wants to beat them too. Problem is they are bloody hard to beat at times.
I think the emphasis on wanting a win this Sat is not only about beating England, it's about winning a game in the 6 nations. Wales have had a terrible run and they need a victory to boost their confidence. I've never seen a Wales team so downtrodden as they were after defeat to Italy (dodgy ending aside).
Good luck to the Welsh. I hope they pick their game up and make it a good contest. Nothing worse than watching rugby games that have no competition & one team just gets hammered. Apart from Ireland v England of course :-).
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Fond memories for you but its true. The Welsh will think the season is ok if they beat England.
Wales v England games at Cardiff is the game of the championship IMHO and is the one I look forward to the most. Whatever happens during the 6 Nations you just know the Welsh can find 2 more gears against us.
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As someone whose first rugby memories are of the same vintage as yours (the '78 grand slam and Gareth Edwards' retirement is what I think I can dimly remember), I entirely sympathise with your point of view. Wales beating England is not really about beating the old enemy (although there is something in that); nor is it only about the triumph of the underdog, speed and guile against brawn and apparent arrogance. It's really about the natural order of things being restored, God being in his heaven and the sun shining like it did when you were six.
For the same reason I want England to beat Australia at cricket and Liverpool to win football matches. 2005 was certainly a good year for sport.
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This is truly a sad posting. Why is it you guys only want to beat England? Do you not realise that you will never become a world force in Rugby again until you stop this miopic view of life. Frankly, and I speak as an England supporter, beating us is not that important. Beating the ABs now that is an acheivement! It just shows a lack of ambition. The reason why Martin Johnson's team deserved the world cup is because they did beat the southern hemisphere teams home and away and that is how I will measure the present England team. To be honest the match against Wales is only a stepping stone.
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I notice that all the scorelines in the games you have highlighted have an average difference of 2.
Not trying to cause too much disharmony, but that is not very impressive.
I know, I know, a win is a win, victory is victory, but my question is, will Wales ever be really good enough to "stuff" England?
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Correct me if I am wrong, but Italy were not part on the "Five Nations" in 1999 were they?
So is this correct...
"Things got better with the wins over Italy and France"
Great article by the way though, I would love to see Wales beat the English, we need it!!!!
Gav
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perhaps that's the answer.
Go mad on the Twickers weeks and book yourself into rehab for the following year!
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I agree, a dismal season can not be erased if Wales win in Cardiff. But it will help soothe the sores a bit eh? My biggest memory was moving from Wales to England as a kid. No-once I knew cared about rugby. However they always seemed to take great fun in ribbing me stupid when England won and especially when it was by large margins. So I remember that when Wales beat England and for me it's always the most satisfying of results. So, as long as we beat the English, I don't mind.
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I was also bought up with many defeats at the hands of the Welsh in the 70's and 80's.coupled with this was two school coaches BOTH Welsh.However the tide turned and St George slaughtering the dragon became the name of the game in 90's and 00's.Now we both play to our strenghths anything can happen.But I know after the occasional joy of winning grand slams and more recently Johhny, that kick and World Cup -there is only one thing that matters to me ......WE BEAT THE WELSH
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For goodness' sake, we don't ONLY want to beat England. But beating England means the most to any Welshman. And Irishman. And Scot. And Australian. And German. And Frenchman. There's nothing wrong with that! If anything, it means the ridiculous hype that surrounds any England team will be contained. Would England rather beat France, or Fiji..?
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Robert,
Read the third sentence again, then lighten up a bit. After the campaign we've had, it's all about crumbs of comfort. Let me guess : you're English, aren't you ?
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Robert, I agree totally. I was about to write the same thing.
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I think Robert that your posting demonstrates exactly why, not just the welsh, but every other nation in any sport in the world loves to beat the English. Your arrogance and ability to view everything that is not an anglo-saxon ideal as inferior is evident whenever you open your mouths. If you think that's rubbish then just ask the Scots, Irish, French, Australians, Kiwis, Germans, Indians, Pakistanis ... the list goes on
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Re: Robert #1.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the reigning world champions? Or have I just woken up from a nightmare that has lasted 4 years?
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Robert takes Welsh rantings about England too seriously. There is a strong sense of irony about our apparent hatred of all things English. When Chris White blew his whistle to end the game in Rome I burst out laughing. Here was another wonderful example of English perfidy that we can drag up in the near and distant future to justify our anti-Anglo attitude. In reality the outrage at what was in all honesty an outrageously cowardly decision was tempered by our knowledge that we should not need that sort of decision in order to beat a team like Italy (if it had been the world cup final, on the other hand..................). We really do know that it is the World Cup that counts and it is when we make the semi-final and England don't that the real sense of our progress as a team will be acknowledged. We all need to wait unti September before judging where we are.
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Wow that's pathetic. Gavin Henson picked up a 12 stone 18 year old centre and dropped him. Yeah that truly was a spectacular victory, well done. I think it's pretty poor how you crow on about all these 'memorable' victories from 'great' Welsh sides. Hate to say it, but none of those winning sides in the last 15 years for Wales are as 'legendary' as you might think, they are nowhere near the class of the 1991 or especially 2002/03 England teams.
Sad thing is Wales might be able to beat some big teams if they didn't put so much emphasis on beating a (currently) very average England side.
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Interesting. Nice to see how the 2005 notions of the current side going onto another period of greatness have descended back into small minded provincialism.
I guess I've been watching 5 / 6 nations matches for about as long as you. My own personal favourite wins (hard to limit them to four, so I have six) are:
1991
Simon Hodgkinson kicks a record seven penalties to defeat the Welsh at Cardiff Arms Park for the first time in a million years. England's pack destroys the Welsh forwards. My father has me take a bottle of beer with a black ribbon round it to his Welsh "friend".
1997
Jeremy Guscott comes off the bench and destroys the highly feted Welsh backs with his speed and awareness in a superb second half display.
1998
England concede three tries and then destroy the Welsh with about 18 tries, Austin Healey making Neil Jenkins look like a one paced, one trick pony fly half woefully exposed out of position at full back (funny that). The ITV highlights (remember them) make the game look like an England training session.
2000
Lawrence Dallaglio drives through 14 Welshmen from 40 yards to score a memorable try, Phil Vickery dummies out of his own 22 and Neil Back drops a goal.
2001
Matt Dawson sidesteps his way to a glorious try in the Milennium stadium, Will Greenwood almost atones for his terrible bleached hair with a hat-trick.
2006
England blow the Welsh away with the worst centre partnership in their history and Ben Cohen on the wing: quite the achievement.
Apologies for absurd partizanship and what probably borders on xenophobia, and I'm sure two wrongs don't make a right, but, in the verbiage of the playground, you started it.
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I disagree with Robert(1)!
"I speak as an England supporter, beating us is not that important"
Beating England is 'very important' to Wales, just like getting a result against the French was all important to the English last weekend!
It's pointless setting sites on the ABs, if we can't get a decent run of games against lesser sides, of which England is now one!
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This is truly sad, i mean 4 wins that you are goin on about, i mean, how many times have Wales played England, really this post is sadening.i would like the bring up the destruction of the 2006 six nations match under Englands worst coach Andy Robinson, and i completely agree with what Robert said above!
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fairplay mate you really are sad! notice wales only won four games against the english in 19 years thats why you've never been world beaters! you have to be able to beat all the teams from both hemispheres!!! hint hint:- england in 2003!! but more recently- 47-13 ring any bells?!?! ;)
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How sad that you will view this 6 nations a success if you beat England, even though you lost to everyone else. I really thought this 'chip on the shoulder' mentality had been consigned to the past where it belongs. Seems I was wrong.
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Oh for god sake. Get over it! Jesus, if that's how the Welsh management think no wonder they don't (and never did) stand a chance in hell of doing well at the World Cup.
So you celebrate a 2 point win, then a year later we celebrate (though clearly not in as obsessive a way) a 47-13 thrashing.
Yet another typical blinkered Welsh fan's view. Like a younger brother aching to get one over on his elder brother but never quite managing it.
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I sympathise slightly - but not too much. From age 10 to 15 I was a lonely Sassenach (same word as sais presumably) supporter going to school in Edinburgh. Murrayfield Calcutta Cup matches were a strain - surrounded by loyal Scots I was damned if I wasn't going to cheer for England and a certain amount of rough house ensued. The going was tougher if England won and once or twice I found myself half-hoping that we'd lose.
I don't think it'll be a close game between England and Wales but I'm not totally sure which of us is going to have a long afternoon.
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This article seems to support the fact that Celt teams only seem completley driven and motivated when playing England? Look at Ireland, lots of talent great chance to win a grand slam and blow it (again) because of a lack lusture showing against France and very lucky not to lose to Scotland?
Italy are a much more dangerous prospect than Wales or Scotland right now, perhaps its the weight of expectation that leads to such under achievment or maybe its simply the chips on their shoulders?
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I agree, what a dire posting. Please get over it.Why bother go back to remember the last four Welsh victories over England? Do you ever hear England fans bragging that they thrashed the defending Grand slam champs Wales by 40 points last year? No- England have bigger fish to fry.The Celtic Nations should see winning against the home nations as a stepping stone for the World Cup and SH tours- not the be all and end all. When Wales won the grand slam, they could have really built and developed - now look what's happening:they are staring a wooden spoon in the face- end of chat. By the way, someone please tell me the last time a Celtic Nation won an away Test(or series) against a SH team.
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Calm down everyone. It's just a light hearted look at the Anglo-Welsh rivalrys, just a bit of a joke that's all. Still - England to win by 15 points.
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There is nothing wrong with what he says. Every country has 1 or 2 countries in particular that they want to beat (a lot of them seem to want to beat England, for some reason). And he does say that:
"Now I don’t believe that a win over our oldest rivals should be Wales’ ultimate ambition, or that it would completely make up for a dismal Championship for Gareth Jenkins’ team"
It's just we are the team they want to beat, so he will be happier than if he beat someone else, say Scotland, and lost to England.
This is coming from a 3/4 English, 1/4 Welshman.
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I think you should be more concerned about finding a way out of the current Welsh woes than wallowing in former glories. Whenever do you hear about a New Zealand fan going on about that game from so and so? It's always about the present and the future, and that's a winning attitude. England dwelled on the world cup too long and it's only now we're really getting past it. It's a problem that is crippling far too many teams, especially in the home nations.
Sure, reflect on the glory days, but it's not going to stop the paralysis currently gripping Wales. As for the comments about English arrogance, how many Welsh players commented that they were a better team than Italy before the game and that they 'should win'? At least in public show the opposition more respect than that.
However, I do enjoy the rivalry between the two countries and I hope there's some good rugby on Saturday, but my point is, just like in England, winning one game isn't going to fix all the problems from the top downwards. I hope for the good of European rugby that we all get our acts together soon so we can offer the boys in the South a bit more opposition.
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at risk of wading into an obvious tirade on "as long as we beat the English" I think you may now find a lot of true Welsh rugby fans just wanting to see us beat decent teams. I appreciate England are in a supossed slump at the moment but they are still reigning World Champions. I am a 70's child but never saw the halycone days' of Welsh rugby. I have been treated to the late 80's 90's & 00's where we have indeed only ever scraped a win.
I want to see decent rugby and decent competition. As a Welshman Rugby is THE sport and my passion for seeing Wales win will apply to any of the top 10 ruugby nations. The reason why beating England is so special to me is that having grown up through those incessant losses against England I want to see us compete and win regularly.
Forget the criticism boys - go out and play your game....and to the English team...play like u did against France and By God the lucky 60,000 in the MS will have had their money's worth ! God Bless Rugby and all who Sail in her
ps I've had a few cheeky beers...sorry for the emotion
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Paul Williams - i totally agree. and your point is strengthened by those who think our 2 point margin victories are not significant for the english people, but of course they weren't - you were the losing side!! But those wins are the most dramatic therefore memorable. Maybe 2 point wins are not good enough for you.
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If someone mentions the tackle that Henson made on Tait one more time I shall surely scream! Tedious repetition on a grand scale.
Look he tackled him. Big deal!! Tait weighs 3 stone wet through so its hardly an earth shattering achievement.
Leave Henson to his sunbed and hair gel. Watched the guy against Sale RFC a couple of months ago. Erm, pretty crap really. Can;'t break the line.
Henson can come and play R League if he gets bored of Union. He won't be picking up 13 stone centres in that sport!!!!
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I've been to that place in Kintbury.
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Well I wouldn't like to put money on this one, Wales are going to be fired up for a win and England may be complacent.
Regardless, it would be nice if the home nations' crowds showed the same respect for the opposition and their anthems as the Irish did at Croke Park, I suspect I may be disappointed though.
And here's me, Englishman through and through married to a Welsh lass.
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I like England beating the other home nations, they like beating England. Enough said isn' it?
The stuff about arrogance is nonsense. The home nations just like hiding behind it because they think it makes it more acceptable than plain hatred.
So the French aren't arrogant? So the Germans aren't arrogant? So the Australians aren't arrogant? Get a grip.
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Paulino-that was a good laugh
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The real difference between Welsh rugy and English rugby is that in Wales rugby belongs to everyone while in England it belongs to public schools and universities - and that's why it matters.
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Funny how the long Welsh losing streak was started by the fatuous comment - post 1987 World Cup - by Clive Rowlands, the Wales Team Manager. Asked 'where do Wales go from here?' after being hammered by the All Blacks, he replied 'We go back to beating England every year'. If only he'd never made the comment.....
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Everyone always wants to beat the English, it is something that's deeply embedded within history and will probably never change.
The fact remains though that Wales will lose to England, and as long as the Welsh keep on looking back to the giddy heights of the seventies it is unlikely they will ever be good enough to consistenetly beat England again, (which sits alright with me)
Here's to a good match on Saturday; the one result we're all hoping for. ;)
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Isn't the reality that on the evidence of the 6N to date no NH team has even a remote chance of winning RWC in Oct - dont know the details of the draw but I bet SA /NZ and Aus are all in semis.
I just want to see close edgy games played to the rules (I live in the shadow of 'The Close' so cant help myself) i.e no Super 14 forward passing and knock on's please - no wonder its so fast....
My favouite game ever was during the last RWC when Wales played the AB's -I think the Taffs were robbed by poor reffin (was he S.African?). If we get anything close to the action in that game I will be happy even if Eng dont win - I think (and hope)it could be quite an open game on Sat.
Fingers crossed.
p.s Best player never to get an England call up was the legendary Eddie Saunders - unless of course you know otherwise!
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I don't know why the English get so hot and bothered about the fact that their neighbours take a lot of pleasure in beating them now and again. England have all the resources, a far bigger population than the other "home" nations combined etc etc so of course it gives pleasure on the ocassions they are brought down a peg or two. In football Manchester United (and increasingly Chelsea) are seen as the "big boys" with everything in their favour. All other clubs want to beat them and take far more pleasure in that than beating say Wigan. English fans can console themselves with the fact that most times they will triumph over their smaller neighbours. On the odd time they lose they will in all probability give that years jubilant victors a good thrashing the next time they meet. Whereas (Ireland being an exception at the moment) the other "home" nations can only dream of a possible World Cup win England have done it once and should be able to contemplate doing it again in the future. With the rugby playing populations of Scotland Ireland and Wales being so small it is only the rare exception when they can hope to have a number of world class players at any one time.
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Why , oh why, is it that everyone so badly wants to beat England ? Living in France, the 6 nations is always a painful time of year. England have never beaten France " without cheating, or kicking all their points ( boring) or without divine help "...( the skies opening up as in the last WC semi-final...
At long last, England seem to have won deservedly, and even scored more tries than the French.
My Dad used to go on and on about Wales this and Gareth Edwards that ( understandably so )... so I enjoy an English win, but we can't always be accused by everybody of arrogance. Nonsense !!! It's hard when the whole world hates you !! ( sob) It's like the Ashes and our so-called colonialist mentality. Codswallop.
Well done to the Irish, the best team around, and to the fantastic crowd attitude at Croke Park... and I am an England fan.
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Child of the 40s, passionate English rugby player/lifelong supporter, half Welsh on my mother's side.
How sad to see traditional good-natured, humourous, partisan, national support, as I remember from my playing days, become so vicious and malicious as I see in so many 6 nation blogs (some blogs for other matches are much worse than this).
This is not the traditional rugby supporter. It is more like the mindless soccer hooligan. Please don't let rugby descend to that level.
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* Darran Mather has no clue.
Leave Henson to his sunbed and hair gel. Watched the guy against Sale RFC a couple of months ago. Erm, pretty crap really. Can;'t break the line.
So you obviously didnt see him against Australia in the autumn handing off and breaking the line on a number of occasions, and against New Zealand which he did the same twice however only had 5 mins to show his class because of attitudes from people like you who dont like the fact that he is famous.
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I started watching rugby in the late sixties, as an England supporter. So my earliest memories are really of those wonderful Welsh sides that regularly beat us, and usually ended up being British Lions. They were, at the time, the most exciting team in the world. The All Blacks were the best, but the big question in those days was if they would play 9 or 10 man rugby – their three quarters were really for show (Don Clarke 6 penalties to beat the Lions’ 4 tries also comes to mind). So for me, the England Wales match is still special. No matter how the teams are doing at the time. Maybe it is just remembering my youth, but it is as serious as the Ashes!
And no, I don't mind that the rest of the world wants to beat us. Whatever their reasoning, I take it as a great compliment
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I Really dont care that much this weekend. I just want to see Jenkins gone. Unless we light up the pitch for 80 mins, Im still unhappy. Even if that does happen (which it wont), im not going to forget some of the god awful rugby I've seen Wales try and play. Im obviously nervous for our boys but for good rugby, i'll be watching Ireland.
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Your piece is a nice trip down memory lane and brings back to me many similar memories. There is no denying it the rivalry between England and Wales is fierce. The Welsh love to beat the English and the feeling is mutual. I have long ceased being shocked at the often thinly disguised contempt and loathing (certainly in sporting terms) that the Welsh and Scots reserve for the English. I just think that such long held grudges are a product of the past and the history of what are seperate nations joined together in the United Kingdom, but in terms of governance dominated in some respects by the English.
As far as the game goes if England continue as they played against France then it could be another glorious victory. Wales have home advantage and will be very fired up, so England will really need to take the game to the Welsh in the first quarter and that may well be an important period in the game. The main thing for England is to carry on in the same vein as they did against France.
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Redcoat amigo getting a bit excited there but hey
being a Welsh supporter for many a year i have seen the many lows and tbh not so many higns of Welsh rugby for 20+ years.
Wales v England this saturday should be a good contest i hope with plenty of blood and snot no doubt.
Wales have woefully underperformed yet again , which imo is due to the parochial management , how the days of Waldron and Neath seem back again , sigh.
i think a Welsh win is possible , but unless parity is achieved up front for a change , the Welsh backs will be doing a lot of tackling again.
heres hoping for a quality match this 6 nations , as up to now it has been poor fare for the fans.
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it is a light-hearted blog, taking the piss out of the welsh as much as the english-relax!
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i could not agree more with mr bull no.43 and i,m a child of the seventies
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As an ex-pat Englishman in Los Angeles, my fondest memory is last year's game. I watched it in a pub in Santa Monica, and the best bit about England's thrashing of Wales was watching Ioan Gruffydd - clad in his Welsh rugby shirt - sat in the corner looking more and more pissed off as the game wore on.
The cost, $20 - the result, wonderful - the look on Ioan's face, PRICELESS!
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One of the reasons that the Irish Welsh and Scots like beating England is that we are inundated by English media, and it is nice to hear their excuses when England lose. (and here I am using a piece of English media!!)
It also goes back to beating your neighbour, and as England is our biggest neighbour it is nice to give them a bloody nose now and then, though it is getting too frequent nowadays for us Irish. But I am sure the tide will turn and we will be the ones being beaten. Once it is "all done in the best possible taste" and we all can slag each other in the pub after the game, does it really matter?
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I reckon Wales will beat England on Saturday. Looking at both teams its a strong possibility, can't believe everyones writing off the Welsh. I'm Irish by the way. Its perfectly obvious that for the Welsh, beating England is a cultural matter and not just a matter of sport so why cant Robert and the other English here just accept that.
And can people please stop referring to Ireland / Wales / Scotland in a collective sense as 'The Celtic Nations'. Theres no attachment or loyalty at all between us in sport. Sure look at the nastyness in the Ireland Scotland game last week. Dont know why English people think its like a united block of countries with the same opinions, goals etc.
Also, someone said no NH team stands a chance of winning the WC - thats ridiculous, both France and Ireland do. Remember the Autumn anyone? How many SH do Ireland need to beat to convince you guys! NZ is next on our list.
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Love the way theres a catalogue of English supporters really taking this the wrong way. Perhaps if you hail from where I grew up where Welsh is stamped out in favour of English immigrants you'd a have a different view. Beating England is possibly the best of them all but we dont concentrate on it full stop, it just helps. Quit dragging the sport down, enjoy what (hopefully) will be an epic sporting contest and take the blog for what it really is. Good work Sean you cheered me up with the memories.
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I'm not biased in any way, My only hope is that England dish out a large helping of humble-pie to our celtic cousins (and the irony of this is that they will have a wooden spoon to eat it with!!)
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let people have their fond memories, and we english would be lying if we said we didn't enjoy beating the home nations.
it still bewilders me that the home nations turn it into a racist encounter, with all this swill about celts and anglo-saxons, though! if you do a bit of reading, you'll soon find this is all myth and historical rumour. the truth is that the british isles are peopled by folks of much the same blood and background...and, interestingly, they were originally basques, not celts! check it out, ignoranuses!
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I couldn't care less, as long as England win. Welsh, Scots and Irish all as bad as each other. Years of hatred has turned me into the same as them! Sorry
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All,
The winner this Saturday should be the game of rugby. Excellent to see the Italians steadily improving. Some incredible rugby to date. Bragging rights? Not necessary. Consider; Wales without a home win against Ireland for 24 consequentive years! England without any win against Ireland since BEFORE the RWC, however, great sportsmanship from the Croke Park crowd. Once England return to winning form I hope that they can accept that with humility something that has been in poor evidence in the past. Ireland supporter since 1962 through thick and thin (very at times)
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Self-indulgent tosh. A reporter's job is to report, not to ramble tediously and autobiographically. No-one gives two hoots what you were doing when you were in the 6th form. The blog phenomenon has a lot to answer for.
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Everyone likes their own team to win, but everyone also likes to watch an entertaining match. The expected England performance is similar to watching a 'slug it out' heavyweight boxing bout. Good Rugby is about great movement. The Welsh, French and Irish try to play that way and produce exciting Rugby - you never know what is going to happen. So that is why I suport them, but when England plays like that I can remember that I'm English and want them to beat the lot of them.
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100% agree with Robert, I too was about to write the same thing. The welsh (and the scots) have a massive lack of ambition.
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Sean Davies approach to the match between England and Wales,shared by many others in the principality, and his failure to see the bigger picture is probably why Wales will not be winning the next world cup.
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As an Irishman
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Post 45 - Stuart Reeves:
I think we must come from the same era, although I first started watching rugby in the late 50's and started playing as soon as I was allowed to at school (not a private one !)
I agree, if everyone wants to beat England, I take it as a compliment and would suggest that the England team use it as motivation to up their game this saturday!
I had to suffer all of the 60's and 70's when we were regularly thrashed by the Welsh and we would have taken any win, even by 1 point, to ease the pain. And yes, we did get excited by a 1 point win; remember the 1980 Grand Slam match when 3 Dusty Hare penalties beat Wales' 2 tries (then worth 4 points) and Paul Ringer's sending off. One point win, couldn't care less, still got absolutely trashed!!
Looking forward to this weekend's game, of course I want England to win, but I've got a sneaking feeling they won't. IMHO, the Welsh really don't have that bad a team, and with players like Martyn Williams in the team they are more than capable of beating England, especially in Cardiff. I just want England to continue their progress, which I think they have undoubtedly made this year, so that they can at least make a decent fist of defending the RWC. I'm delighted with all the youngsters that have made their debuts this season and really want them to succeed. I'm really looking forward to an open game this weekend!
However, having been one of the lucky ones who got into Croke Park, I would love the crowd in Cardiff to behave in exactly the same way as they did there. Sing your anthem with gusto, respect the opposition's and keep silence for any kicks at goal. I believe it's all the young scottish supporters who started that habit of whistling the kickers and I firmly believe it has absolutely no place at a rugby match!
Sorry to sound like an "old f**t", but I love my rugby, I'm passionate about England but, above all, I just like to watch a good game. Here's to one this saturday.
P.S. For the record, I had an English father and a Welsh mother (still alive at 90). My middle names's Tudor, my mother's maiden name and that's very Welsh, I'm told!
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Baz,
I'm going to stick up for Sean. I asked him to write something about the game on Saturday - and I found his very personal look-back at this fixture from his own unique and rugby-mad point of view very entertaining.
And I am English.
All criticism is valid - but I don't think it is fair to criticise someone for something they aren't trying to do.
Sean wasn't trying to be objective and I specifically asked him for his 'personal insight' - which you deem 'self-indulgence'.
If you don't like the personal format of a blog, we have news pages where the straight-bat format may be more to your taste.
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These comments make depressing reading.
Over the years I have been fortunate to have attended all the Wales v England fixtures since '88. Almost every match has been a joy because the rugby has been the winner and there is ALWAYS a good spirit been opposing spectators.
Living in London means that there is a lot of ribbing to endure whenever Wales lose - this is only painful if we play badly. Let us enjoy the moment when Wales win - even if this is not very often and not by much of a margin! Wembley was a very savoury place to be on that Spring day in '99.
At the end of the day Wales have very limited rugby resouces compared to England so it is no surprise Wales are considered underdogs. However they do have the individual skills to entertain and IF they can string together a team performance they could well win on Saturday.
Let the sport entertain, whoever wins.
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Why is everyone saying that the Irish hate the English rugby team. Ireland has great respect for the English and some of us remember 1973 when the English travelled to Dublin when the our celtic cousins wouldn't and after all didn't England beat the French for us last week
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Its strange the English are famous for their fair play, where did we get that reputation, well from what I have just read, from the Irish, Scots and Welsh... What a bunch of precious frilly shirts we English blokes are, ITS A GAME.. nobody really hates us... mind you we do have more registered professional rugby players than anyone else in the world, I think our population is
20+ million nearly more than the Irish, Welsh and Scots combined.. so why shouldn't the underdogs win occassionally? Oh I forgot the Irish just did, didn't they by a tiny bit more than 1 or 2 points......
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Completely agree with post 43. Most of the 6 nations blogs contain a large number of vicious comments which are in no way representative of the good natured banter found at the matches.
Post 57 a shining example of soccer style support!
Rugby unfortunately is beginning to descend into the mirky depths of professionalism. How long will it be before players start waving imaginary cards at the refs to get players binned? How many more coaches will receive touch line bans? The soccer style rantings throughout the blogs are in some way reflecting what is also beginning to change on the field. Lets hope it doesn't transfer to the stands.
Now I've finished my rant back to the main topic -
Yes everyone wants to beat England. I couldn't think of a greater complement. Being such a big scalp is surely better than eveyone considering England insignificant.
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Why does it seem to be that it's perfectly all right to ridicule England and its fans, but when we try to return the favour, we've "lost our sense of humour" or being "typically arrogantly English?"
As a rugby fan and ex-player, I love the banter, and think it is what sets us apart from the violence and feral tribalism that haunts football, but still can't understand why it only appears ok when it's directed towards us.
And contrary to Glynn's (37) assertion that rugby in England is the preserve of public school and university, perhaps I should invite him to my old clubhouse where he'd meet a huge cross-section of society and he'd see that his argument is as full of holes as the Welsh defence hopefully will be tomorrow.
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As an Englishman going to University in Cardiff and having to endure the abuse at the 89' and 93'losses, any victory over the Welsh is enjoyable now! Their obsession to beat the English makes it all the sweeter when they don't.
PS I knew we'd lose the 1989 game, the English team were watching Dracula in a cinema down Queen Street the night before. Not a film to psyche you up and Deano was eating far to much popcorn!
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As an Englishman living in Cardiff during the mid to late seventies and sharing a house with several other English and Welsh blokes, all rugby players, the bruises following the ritual battering by the Welsh at rugby have still to heal...and the Welsh lads let us know all about it for weeks, for sure...
On the other hand, there is too much innate rugby talent in Wales for this dip to last for much longer, hopefully it will last for at least one more week though.
On a separate thought, I reckon that Ireland's Croke Park win over England may turn out to be the best possible result for England; it caused Ashton (a natural innovator) to cast off caution and to go with his instincts and we've already seen the results...very important that England play with the same exuberance on Saturday.
Come on the Ashton Kids...!! I think that we might out-Welsh the Welsh on Saturday and beat them by playing the so-called "Welsh Way."
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I was pretty sure that whatever I wrote I'd get accused of being sad, living in the past etc. But what I'm trying to say is enjoy the fantastic fixture that is Wales v England tomorrow, and enjoy it for what it is.
Anyone with a dispassionate eye will agree that both countries have been pretty dismal this season. People say "World Cups should be our ambition" - well, after watching this Six Nations I'd say that favourites for the World Cup are:
1. New Zealand
2. S Africa
3. Australia
4=. Argentina / France / Ireland
7. England
8=. Scotland / Italy / Wales
Given that, if Wales get a win tomorrow I'll be celebrating like it's the best thing that's going to happen to them all year (and one of the five best things in the last 20 years).
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You get more credit when you beat the best so everybody wants to beat England. The sad thing is that the current English team often help them do it.
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Having shared the memories of watching five nations games in JC's Bar. I remember trips to Mumbles usually being to drown the sorrows of defeat, illuminated by the odd victory. I fear that tomorrow will be no different for the Welsh students in Swansea. With the exception of 2005 we haven't really moved on. I don't share Gareth Jenkins philosphy of losing all six nations games for a decent world cup or as long as we beat England, it's a decent season. A win tomorrow will do little to mask a poor championship. I'd swap 4 wins and a defeat against England for the championship every year although losing to them still hurts the most. What I'd give though for a Welsh win and being able to see Mr Sean Davies parading down St Mary's Street in a drunken state, talking more nonsense than usual!
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Sadly the England stars in Australia 2003, Have got that little bit older
and have decided to hang up their boots !!!! This is now 2007 ! and more
to the point the numbers on Rugby shirts go, no 1 to 15 (exc Reps) They dont stop at 10, So England have to stop relying on Jonny Wilkinson and find another 14 guys to support him, this way he may avoid more injuries caused by opposing back row players clobbering him. Anyway COME ON WALES WE CAN DO IT England on Saturday, World Cup Later in the year, NOW THATS A SUCCESS STORY FOR YOU !
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Id like to comment on several pieces that have been written below. Yes beating the English is very important,and anyone who doesn't understand the rivarly here in Wales or accross the border should really get to grips with things. BUT, beating the English is crucial this time because Jenkins needs to prove himself. It seems that the lack lusture approach of the final games he took charge of the Scarlets has somehow stuck with him, and is now visible in the Welsh team.
One final comment. Someone below mentions Wales never being World beaters. Probably not. But do we see anybody from the British Isles being so ? Maybe Ireland, who the All Blacks conveniantly avoided on their British Tour ( I wonder why ), but England ceertainly haven't been WORLD beaters. They won the World Cup- whooopdie dooo. Jammy Sudden, Sudden, Sudden ( I've forgotten how late on in the game it was-excuse the sarcasm) drop goal, and the cup was theres. BUT, after that.......I never saw them live up to the World Champions Tag, and I never saw them play like World Champions !!!
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English supporters shouldn't flatter themselves into believing they matter so much; I'd sooner take Ireland's scalp, anyday. Can't deny there's a special feeling from seeing their smug faces drop though. Personally, i detest them. Hey ho.
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You'll never win anything of any merit if a seasons success or failure(the latter being wales' fate win, lose or draw with England) hinges on beating someone you don't like rather than aiming to beat the best team in the competition. England are ranked 6th in the world, surely the results against Ireland and France should have been more important?
Poor little down trodden principality. Bless.
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A win over Italy in the 1999 '5' Nations?????
Still, a fantastic England v Wales match........
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It is definitely 'the' rugby fixture!! The amount of old English Uni friends, coming out of the woodwork, asking for tickets, wanting to meet up on Saturday for a drink and to pull up a memory or two....I wouldn't change the rivalry for the world...we'll all give as good as we get.....and as long as we beat the English, we don't care!!!!!
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Amusing really. Let me share a memory of mine that sums up you pathetic Welsh. Touring NZ for the Lions tour 2005, happily mixing with the British fans, especially the Scots who were amazing. The first tour game that Shano (as you horribly call him) and the party of Welsh in front of me constantly cheered for the Ospreys and him alone!!! When an England or scot, Irish touched the ball they sat down and went quiet. Don't you worry beating the Welsh is as enjoyable for us however we find it alot easier than you.
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Edryd Jones wrote:
"but England ceertainly haven't been WORLD beaters. They won the World Cup- whooopdie dooo. Jammy Sudden, Sudden, Sudden ( I've forgotten how late on in the game it was-excuse the sarcasm) drop goal, and the cup was theres. BUT, after that.......I never saw them live up to the World Champions Tag"
OK First thing you can't fluke an entire world cup, it's just not possible. Secondly England WERE world beaters but leading up to and during the world cup - granted shortly afterwards things wnet pear shaped.
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Come On ENGLAND.. Last weeks performance was outstanding... I can't wait for us to stuff Wales tomorrow!! They are so anti English.
I however do love the game and hope the best team win.. Which will be England.. And hope the tries come thick and fast… for England.
Good luck Wales. But it would help to have greater ambition than just worrying about England. The true test will be the world cup… and I like what I’ve scene so far after the shake up we needed.
On the attacks we have had over the world cup we so rightly deserved.. all focus on Johnny’s Perfect Drop goal!! But we won because the team are and were the most passionate team! FORWARD AS ONE! tut tut you are all so bitter... I remember a similar drop Goal that secured a welsh grand slam? But he was a hero for you.. so was Johnny for us.
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Wales v England isn't the big game of the 5/6 nations any more. England v France is the big game for English fans. I hope England win this weekend but it's not significant, beating France is the key performance to ake away from this tournament.
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All the home nations want to beat each other - its purely down to bragging rights for a season. And its good fun. I truely believe its nothing about hatred (maybe a minority of unfortunate) its about being able to say we beat you. Our teams better than yours for a few months till the next game. I (as an englishman) love to beat the irish, welsh and scots....particularly the Aussies (who do have a bigger problem when losing to us)as they do the English.
Having been 'World Champions' for the last four years, it has hurt to see us become the worst world champions..ithink in any sport. And all the other teams have enjoyed ripping in to us. However finally i think we have a coach who will get us playing again....
So all i can say is....get ready to taking some thumpings again from the mighty whites!...who deserve to be there cos we are the best ;o)
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And you have the audacity to accuse the Enlgish of dwelling on past success. How come you can write a full blog about your recent victories over the English, but if we even so much as mention the World Cup, the entire of Wales jumps down out throat? One rule for Wales, one rule for everyone else. If an Englishman gets abused by a Welshman, it's payback for years of arrogance, oppression and torment (?????). If an Englishman takes the mick out the Welsh, we're a bunch of racist anglo-saxon pigs. I find the entire thing of the Welsh disliking the English absolutely laughable.
Good luck on Saturday Wales. I have no hatred for you...only pity after reading these blogs.
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As usual a large number of English fail to understand why nobody likes them!! Yes they are World Champions and nobody can take that away from them. They did what they had to do to win it with a good team and exceptional captain. (The coach was over-rated though as discovered with his pathetic efforts with the Lions!!) There is nothing at all wrong with wanting to beat your neighbours and, as someone else said, with an English based media dominating everything we do get fed up with that.
Both England and Wales go into this game ironically stronger without their first choice No 10's. Should be a great game and, yes, beating England will be some consolation for a poor season.
The reality of all of this is that no Northern Hemisphere is any where near good enough to win the World Cup this year.
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Boys (mainly) and girls,
To those of you calling the author up in holes about his "narrow-minded" attitude, perhaps you should reflect that the reason WHY beating England in the last 20 years or so has been so important is precisely because Wales lost the form of the 70s. They're a good side, therefore a target - beating them is an achievement, not just an ancient rivalry.
However, I'll bet if you ask any football supporters who they most want to beat, it'd be their nearest (and/or biggest) neighbours - hence the excitement of the local derby. I defy you to find any Man City fan who doesn't think the United games are the most important in the season, for example.
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A comment mentioned 'no one from NZ going on about one game or another'... don't you believe it. They KEEP going on and on about one game or another, the difference being they've WON all the games they go on about. (I live in NZ.)
Beating England at rugby is paramount. No other scalp is so satisfying. That said, this Sunday morning is different and, God I hate typing this... I hope England thrash Wales this weekend. If the England team could put forty or fifty on us, that would truly seal the final nail in Jenkins' coffin and, possibly, Wales might stand a chance of getting out of the group phase of the upcoming world cup.
Someone wrote about winning four and losing to England... Remember 1994? God that sucked. Five Nations champions, yes, but lifting the trophy after having been humbled at Twickenham... it still sticks.
A win on Saturday would preserve horrific management. A loss would precipitate their departure.
Come on Wales! Lose, for goodness sake.
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Yes 52 I think all this 'Celtic brotherhood' stuff is a load of crap too.
This said, I grew up in Scotland and spent alot of time in Ireland too (North and South) and what some of the people do have in common though is quite a complex about their national identity from which the ensuing nationalism lends them to some quite skewed, myopic understandings of themselves and England/English people. By defining themselves as the opposite of anything 'English' they tend to draw neat binary oppositions which underpin their understanding of their country's national character - generally along the lines of media as 'arrogant/ balanced; history as that of 'oppressor/ oppressed'; people as 'humourless/ humourful', and culture as 'bland/ colourful' etc... with England/English as always the former. Ofcourse, from this point of view they are generally succesful in finding evidence of the 'arrogance' etc.. which entails its opposite and sustains a sense of being part of a culturally and morally superior country. Interestingly it is only the symbols of England/ Englishness which are contested and real English people are generally not as important as contributing factors in the equation: hence the 'I hate the English but you're alright' comments frequently made to English people by the Scottish, Irish and Welsh (often when living in London or other English cities) and which are genuinely understood not to be offensive. This understanding, although occaisionally questioned in soul-searching articles (most recently in the Irish media) about how celtic country X needs to 'move on' and 'look forward' by throwing off a national identity based on anti-Englishness, has nevertheless come out on the Ö÷²¥´óÐã blogs a few times - notably by Jim Stokes on the Ireland blog and here too as the commentators get over excited and reveal their true colours. What the celtic countries have in common - and indeed with Australia, NZ etc though to varying degrees - is a sense of national-culture and identity forged by a oppostion drawn against the symbols of what they are not. This is unhealthy and justifies an ethnocentrism which goes beyond 'rivalry' and ironically is exactly the complaint most often levelled against the 'arrogant English'.
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"Personally I detest them. Hey Ho"
Barry ,you must have had some very bad dealings with the Irish to have such a strong feeling of hatred. What an idiot!!
I believe on the whole, tru Rugby fans have no hatred for each other and that there it just a healthy rivalry. I love it when we (Ireland) beat anyone. Always 100% behind the team and love the banter with the opposition fans.
From some of these blogs I would worry that the soccer type lout who goes to matches to start trouble is ecking their way into a game that has no history of the viciousness assosiated with soccer.
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All this talk of English arrogance is ridiculous and reminiscent of a group of football supporters. At the end of the day it's rugby guys, and anyone playing sport to a high degree of professionalism needs a bit of it or else they wouldn't get anywhere. My best friends are Welsh and Irish and to say they are not arrogant when it comes to their national sides is ridiculous, they are just the same as anyone else and have an overriding sense of national pride - is this arrogance? As with all sports everyone wants to beat the next team and this means some more than others. I think the difference between England and some of the other home nations is that England has moved on from this feudal idea and simply just wants to be the best (granted not going too well at the moment!). Others however are still too wrapped up in beating the English (though I think Scotland and Ireland have moved past this now!) and until they broaden their ambitions then they will get nowhere. I am talking about both the supporters and the players here, more the supporters these days who need to brush that chip off thier shoulders, get over it and get on with the game! Saying all that though, the distinct rivalry between England and well everyone else, does make for some good banter and a healthy drink during and after the game, unlike some other footballing sports...but that is another issue!
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Interesting blog and you can't blame a fan for wanting their side to win, espeically when looking down the barrel of a whitewash. However, it concerns me when any fans objective is as long as we beat X, we should want our side to try and beat everyone.
Been reading Clive Woodward's book recently the modestly titled 'Winning' actually not a bad book despite my concerns on the title. Anyway the point was the way he changed England from a team wanting to compete in Europe to the world is significant and I think it should be the objective of all of the European sides. The Southern hemisphere don't just worry about their local rivals the game is now global. The sooner we all realise that the better.
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The difference is the Welsh, Scots, Irish and French all love beating the English, whereas the English like to beat the Welsh, Scots, Irish and French.
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No it would just mask the fundamental problems that Wales have - including the fact that the current Welsh coaching team are not up to the Job. I think the short term pain of losing to England would be worth the long term benefits gained if it leads to the sacking of Gareth Jenkins and his coaching team - who are clearly not up to the job!
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Re Glynn posting 37
Glynn you are 30 years out of date.
Of course rugby is played at English public schools and universities but universities are no longer only for the "upper classes". My guess is that rugby is played in Welsh public schools and uni's as well.
You should visit grass roots clubs in England where many are running mini and junior sides fron U7 to U17 made up of kids from local junior and comprehensive schools.
England by 20 on Saturday.
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Wales by 10+, it's simple, England will not fire in the Millenium Stadium and Wales will.
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Just to say that I'm really surprised. I wouldn't have thought that Wales had only beaten England 4 times (and by a total of just 7 points!). Despite being English I find this slightly depressing.
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Good old Wales supporters hey, I can believe that a comment is written by the honourable Edryd Jones that England won the world cup and I quote: "woopdiedooo". I don't believe it to be a case of woopdiedooo, I do however think that more realistically on planet earth it must take allot of hard work and determination with a little bit of good luck on top. When the Boks won the world cup in 1995 with a drop goal in the dying minutes of over time, it was not said afterwards that all it took was a little "woopdiedooo" no in fact it took everything they had to give, and that little bit of luck on top! After this the boks too did not always perform as one would expect world champions to do, but then Wales would know all about how to play immediately after winning a world cup...
I think England have got their work cut out, again deciding to rest their players rather than have as much prep time as possible. All I can hope for is another strong performance from the tight five and quick latter phase ball to the wings, Robinson is still as elusive as ever and man O' man can that Strettle motor.
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Yes I've got to admit that the Henson tackle on Tait was a way over the top in terms of media hype.
Scott Gibbs tackle on Oz du Rant in 1997 for the Lions...now that was a tackle to be proud of.
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I am an Englishman living in Cardiff, And I love this fixture. The pure passion that the fans and the team in Wales put into this game is exciting for any fan of professional sport. If only Wales could put the same amount of passion into every game.
What I Don't like about the day is some of the hatred that is strangely overlooked by many. Racism in the Big Brother house is minor compared to some of the abuse I have witnessed in bars in Cardiff. I don't beleive for one minute its intended to be racist but think, "I hate the English", "The English are Arrogant" couldn't this be construed as racism even though it only seems to be used in the sporting world. And have I a right to complain? or should I take it as sporting banter? Its about time that this part of the rivalry is put to bed. And for the people who hate the media attention that English Teams get in all competitions remember this. MEDIA is a business and using basic principles of business the media is out to make money and they are going to target their biggest customer, that is England.
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Barry
I'm hoping you have a really miserable weekend this weekend, it will match your miserable posting.
Edryd
England were/are world champions because over a period of 2 years they were the best side in the world, that run gave them the edge, no matter that it was a late drop goal .. it was a win, despite the Ref's attempt to even up the game by refereeing Englands dominant scrum out of the match.
I'm hoping for a great game, win or lose, I want to see England play some quality, running, inventive rugby. If Wales should win, they'll have deserved it, whether by late penalty or drop goal.
Come on England !
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Of course we want to beat them every time. That is what sport is about. It is better than being at war with eachother as we were for many years. It is sport where we vent our fellings and the right way to do it. Some people wouldn't even want them to come over the Bridge.
At least we charge them £15 for the pleasure of entering our country.
Bunch or rah rah tally ho boys with only one song to sign. You know where to stick the Chariots.
C'mon Wales.
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BTW re post 37, pop over the border into the West Country and tell them that. Go talk to people playing rugby in Cornwall and ask them if they have all been to university or public school.
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Pity the nation that defines itself by what it hates.
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As an Irish supporter, I find this squabble between you two minor rugby nations very cute. I dont see Wales or England beating ireland for a very very long time. You just dont have the structures in place.
Ireland to pull further away in the next four years!!
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ive been watchin wales over the last few weeks with a heavy heart and have hadvery little to console me as ive watched them go from bad to worse. However this saterday will be the match people will rememebr and i pray if nothing else wales give them the hardest game they've had in this tournament, our dreams or winning are in ruins but our oppertunity to still maintain some dignity is within our reach. Good luck lads
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The difference in ambition was summed up for me outside the Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane during the 2003 World Cup. I was ecstatic because we'd won a tight Quarter Final and the World Cup dream was still alive. A passing Welshman was ecstatic because Wales had scored 3 tries to 1!!!! I politely enquired about the time of his flight home!
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Oh i love it when the English get wound up and upset when they hear that other countries revel in beating them and seeing them loose. Its great!!! They are so sensitive aren't they!!!
Why do the English even care?? Your the current world champions. You should take it as a compliment. Grow up.
I can only presume that the English really, really wanted to beat the Welsh in the 70's 80's, did we get upset? No, we just enjoyed beating you heavily.
One more thing
England - 1 million registered rugby players
Wales - 45,000 registered rugby players.
Everyone loves a David and Goliath story,
Get over it.
England still win tomorrow by 2 points
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As an English child of the 70s, beating Wales is always great and it may still take several decades before I actually feel sorry for them. That aside, it's true that the celtic nations are always much keener to beat England than vice versa. That is basically because it was all over bar the shouting hundreds of years ago when we got all the money and the best land. It's hard to rouse yourself over a mere rugby match after that. Now taking on proper countries like France and Germany at sport, that's what makes the passion burn and what made last weekend very sweet in an otherwise bleak few seasons. Provocative stuff indeed but as an English fan cannot say anything without being accused of arrogance, it's pointless being conciliatory and I may as well conform to type. I hope that England stuff Wales by a country mile on Saturday...but on current form I wouldn't bet a month's pay.
Name & Address not Supplied ;)
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Well.....lots of good stuff here a real mix indeed.
As an England fan its important we play well as RWC is the goal. BUT to beat Wales matters a lot to me too as I am passionate about the White short as the Welsh supporters are about the Red.
We have slipped over nearly 4 years now so thats why a win is important but also how we play, how our new players fare is critical so its hard to balance that short term and long term. If we win narrowly because Wales play poorly for example I wont be happy. Wales have dived in half the time we have and that I find amazing. I actually enjoy good rugby and the style from RWC 2003 to Grand Slam for Wales was good to watch. But what has happened?
Almost as strange as the ending of the game against Italy. Would a quick tap have been a better option, retain the ball rather than risk a line out that would have been spoiled anyway!!
Anyway, that said I will be overjoyed when they close the roof at Cardiff so the local people cant hear the home crowds tears!!!
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There are a couple of comments about Wales v Italy in 1999 - Wales did beat them in Rome on their 'weekend off' from the old Five Nations. It was the last year before they officially joined the Six Nations.
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As an Australian, I don't understand the issue. My Pommy mates have told me that Wales is part of England albeit thought of as poor and backward. Clearly they have been having a lend of me.
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Wales have no chance of beating England.
They are very very poor - worst team in tyeh six nations by far.
Rubbish.
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Comment 3 from Paulino - I assume that having had the wooden spoon for so long, Italy may be able to send us some wonderful recipes...
Beating England is enough? Not in my book, beating anybody half decent is satisfying, there's no extra buzz for it being the men in white for me. just means that all the green welly brigade go quiet for weeks afterwards.
I really hope that the guys finally click and produce a big W, but it will only cap a miserable season in my book. One that poses questions on both the coach and captaincy.
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after coming to Swansea uni last year i realised what being english meant to alot of welsh people. I can see why to, only a few matches ago there were some english rugby supportes who were clearly football converts,(after seeing the english rugby team win more games than football) They were been abusive to the other teams in ways which were very unsporting. this annoyed me and got cheers from the welsh when i, a fellow englishmen, told them to shut up!! So we are not all as bad as the press makes us out to be.
I plan on heading down to Cardiff on Saturday dressed as an english knight with some friends, but i have been warned, to be careful??? this annoys me, alot of the good banter between rugby fans has now gone and its becoming more and more like football. Saturday will be a great day no matter what happens, 3matches in 1 day is always good!!!! If we do loose on saturday good on the Welsh, they need it. lol (a joke/firendly banter, dont see much of it on here) lets hope its an awesome game. we can always just beat u at some drinking games afterwards, boat race anyone???? Come on england!!
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In response to Glynn comment 37, Ronnie Regan and Shaun Perry Were both welders before they turned pro so no Uni or public schoolboys there. Also, I get impression Julian White and Phil, raging bull, Vickery come from a school of life background rather than some toffy nosed school. I play with a whole plethera of poeple at my club:-brickies , plumbers, head teachers,lecturers to used car salesmen. Once again the celts view of the Ole Enemy is stuck in the past. I for one will be cheering on my team at my club with my welsh teamates cheering on thier team. Lets not forget rugby is THE beautiful game and not that lawn fairy sport !!!
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Being an Englishman in Wales the worst thing for me is the Welsh media. If Wales win a match, any match, they are the best team in the world, if they lose they are suddenly the worst.
All the hype around England matches just makes it disproportionately worse. Odds on if Wales win on Saturday, Sundays papers will be hailing a new start for Welsh rugby and a bright hope for the World Cup. If they lose they will be calling for heads to roll and looking for scapegoats for the whole six nation debacle.
Hmm just like the English papers with football then!
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Why is it then whenever England win a game with penalties then they are accused of being boring or predictable? England have been beaten by Wales, the ABs and probably most other nations by penalties alone and yet nothing is made of this. Paterson almost kicked Ireland out of the running for the 6Ns and yet no-one has made an issue out of this.
Sure we all like to see open running rugby with spectacular tries, but at the end of the day a win is a win and if penalties put the points on the board then so be it.
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If Wales can't beat a largely 2nd string England on saturday, then their season will be officially a disaster.
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As much as I would like to see Wales beat England and would jump around like a lunatic if we beat them, I really must take umbrage at some of the bitterness that oozes from these posts like a malevolent puss from a wound. I'm a Welshman living in London and - outside of an 80minute rugby match once a year when it's alright to bay for their blood - I like and respect the English. Let's face it, they're not bad neighbours (we could be living next to a bunch of bloodthirsty communists) and have we Celts in recent times not shed blood together to make Europe and the world a safer place?
I'm Welsh first but proudly British second, and I for one don't harbour resentment towards the English.
Here's hoping to a good game of rugby tomorrow and a good show against the SH teams in the WC.
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Can I, as an Englishman, put a bit of reason into this discussion.
I enjoy English victories in any sport, as I am sure the Welsh and Scots do. However, I always support those two countries when they play foreign teams as I would a Scottish competitor in an athletics event in which an Englishman had no chance (and it often happens)! I cannot see England doing well in this years WC (due mainly to poor management since 2003) but then Wales have had similar problems in the past and like most sides have come through it as England probably will, if too late for this year.
It would please me if the Welsh and Scots realised that it is foreign sides that we should all want to beat (France, ABs, Australia, Ireland, SA etc) as British countries. Yes, the Welsh want to beat England, but they should also have the same desire to beat the Scots and visa versa.
Please enjoy the match, but remember it is only a game and there are far far more important things happening in the rest of the world.
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Although it would be nice to beat the English in what promises to be a tight match and send the country into a state of euphoria for a couple of days. It would not be as nice as a strong showing in the World Cup. This unfortunately will be outside our grasp as long as we continue under the same coaching regime. Jenkins summed it up for me with his comment to Ö÷²¥´óÐã Sport when he said "if you take 2005 away it has been an average season compared with the last 10 years". Should we not be striving for more and have average seasons like 2005. Instead of persevering with a level of mediocrity/triviality.
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I don't mind some harmless banter, in fact it is a compliment that the other nations want to beat England, the more hated we are the better - that means when we do win we really upset the other supporters, which makes me laugh!!!
One thing that annoyed me slightly is the all Welsh/Irish commentary team on the Ö÷²¥´óÐã passing comment on the England Ireland game - the Welsh guy, whose team had lost on the same day, finished with "any day the English lose is a good day for me." ITS NOT EVEN HIS TEAM. Chip on his shoulder or what...
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Everybody, please remember two things!
To Wales fans. The vast majority of English supporters/citizens are no more or less arrogant than you and do not feel superior to the Welsh/Scots/Irish/French.
To England fans. The vast majority of Welsh supporters/citizens do not hate the English people- they hate the rugby team/establishment. It is natural that if you have a bigger neighbour you want to beat them, especially if you are the underdog on most occasions.
I cannot understand the enmity that always seems to develop from this kind of debate- on both sides. Sean Davis' weblog is a very entertaining, light-hearted view of what it feels like for other teams like to beat the English.
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4. David wrote:
"nor is it only about the triumph of the underdog, speed and guile against brawn and apparent arrogance. It's really about the natural order of things being restored, God being in his heaven and the sun shining like it did when you were six."
can this person not see where the arrogance really comes from - the english are proud because we are world champions, and because as this article mentions we pretty much whipped everyone for a good few years... the welsh think that them winning is as inevitable as the sun coming up in the morning?!?
Not only is this the height of arrogance, if it were true we'd also probably have evolved without eyes, cos there'd be no point in trying to see.
2005 was a one-off.
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Stevo (70) strikes a chord with me. I know it is a self-selecting group who contribute to blogs but I’m getting quite despondent about the invective and spleen directed at England in them (one of the Ireland v England blogs set unenviably high levels). It seems that it is OK to express hate and scorn for England in a way that if directed against other nations would be seen as offensive and unacceptable. Whatever the history and legacy of home nations relations in all aspects is perceived to be I can’t for the life of me see why they should be press-ganged into stoking ‘hate’ and win at any cost mentalities
I was beguiled by the rugby of the Welsh 70’s team and it grew my love of the best team game in the world. Their play seemed to spring from art rather than science as so much is now for so many teams. Anathema for some I know but I would rather England lose playing adventurous thrilling rugby than grind out an attritional overwrought few points win.
If England play in the manner they did against France and Wales play the way they are instinctively capable of Saturday’s game should be the best of this 6 nations and too close to call.
So here’s a big ‘cheers’ to all the rugby lovers and a ‘take a good look at yourself’ to the xenophobes.
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I can see his point though, Simon (99). Tries are what rugby should be all about and us Welsh feel a tad guilty about winning matches by boring kicks (a la England in the eighties and Scotland now) as we are known for a certain attractive playing style. Other teams have won more Grand Slams than us over the past ten years admittedly but nobody did with the same style and panache as the Welsh in 2005. It was a joy to behold. I only hope we don't have to wait another 20-odd years for another one.
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Edryd Jones (blog 77): you are a sad, sad man. As the guy said, it's not possible to fluke an entire world cup, nor, adding to that, beating all the SH teams home and away, several times in a row.
Winning the world cup - 'woop-de-doo'? Yeah, that attitude is the reason why you won't even come close to winning one anytime soon; given it's the greatest, nost arduous prize in world rugby, and all you care about, instead, is beating a mediocre England team that's only just beginning to believe it can play...
Grow up and get some perspective. 'Parochial' and 'myopic' just don't cover what you really are.
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My comment is that Sean Davis' figures just don't add up in his piece of 'journalism'. He was in the 6th form in 1989, which means at the earliest, he started in 1988, starting uni in 1991 (possible gap year or 3 years in the 6th form). This means he was, at the earliest, born in late 1971. How on earth does he remember Welsh rugby throughout the 1970s? A bit of creative reporting here I think, besides the so-called 'great' victories.
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Edryd Jones wrote:
"but England ceertainly haven't been WORLD beaters. They won the World Cup- whooopdie dooo. Jammy Sudden, Sudden, Sudden ( I've forgotten how late on in the game it was-excuse the sarcasm) drop goal, and the cup was theres. BUT, after that.......I never saw them live up to the World Champions Tag"
OK First thing you can't fluke an entire world cup, it's just not possible. Secondly England WERE world beaters but leading up to and during the world cup - granted shortly afterwards things wnet pear shaped.
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The Welsh always give extra when they're playing Engerland - Which is why it's always so funny watching them Struggle against a pretty poor Scotland.
If I were a welsh fan I wouldn't bother watching them play anyone other than Engerland - you know you're only going to see the team put in 60-70% effort :-).
As a group of depsondant Welsh fans said as they were leaving Murrayfield this year "They wouldn't score a try in a week - never mind the last 5 minutes. We're off to the pub"
Says it all !
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103 - pathetic. A real credit to your nation you mindless idiot.
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This topic has been taken very seriously by a lot of people - i think it's a lot more simple.
Wales need to win this game much more for the future of the coach (and the pressure that comes with a Six Nations whitewash) than some boyish border rivalry. Likewise England could be on course for a Six Nations win - providing a miracle happens in the Stade de France.
I agree that a win over England is sweeter than any of the other Six Nations for me, and a customary phone call to my Uncle in Leicester after is always in order. But in the grand scheme of things, Wales can't afford another loss - and with Hook at 10 i think we will win.
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Re Crezza, posting 97.
Although I agree that the perception of the English game as being somehow only for toffs is a little exaggerated, still: 'My guess is that rugby is played in Welsh public schools...' - Erm. Actually, there aren't really any big Welsh public schools - certainly not any of your Eton, Harrow etc.
Anyway, that was a digression. The fact remains that if I went down to a building site here in London after the weekend and asked if they'd watched the rugby I'd probably get blank looks. Back in Cardiff it would be a silly question - of course they would have. In Wales rugby is a game of the people, which isn't quite true in England. That's why it means more, but unfortunately also why it's so much more parochial and xenophobic. (For an equivalent English comparison just think of the stupid headlines in the red-tops whenever we play the 'Argies' in football)
Looking forward to the final game on Saturday. In all probability the 6N will already have been decided effectively, so I'm hoping for a really thrilling encounter with both Wales and now Ashton's England wanting to play good open rugby. I think there could be a decent points gap at the end of the game, but I wouldn't like to predict in who's favour! From a Welsh point of view I've always thought it better, if you are going to be beaten by England, to be beaten by England playing attractive rugby - rather than just sticking the ball up their shirts as they used to.
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You guys are lucky,
My wife's Welsh, and I'm an aging English fan..Have you ever seen the damage a knitting needle can do?
It's like laying on the wrong side of a ruck with a very upset pack of All Black forwards peering down at you.
Here's hoping it's a draw, and Im spared the attentions of the local A&E department.
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The Welsh are far from a subjugated people.
Whilst we are proud to be part of a union of nations (ref: recent surveys and referendums - Owain Glyndwr himself fought on the side of England before the throne was usurped by unrightful heir Henry IV) and have contributed as much in terms of lives of men (don't forget Rorke's Drift!), industry and sporting triumphs to putting the "Great" firmly into Great Britain - we have retained our national identity through our language, hiriaith (a word that has no English translation), culture, recently devolved powers and national sport, i.e. rugby.
With regard to the latter and indeed the subject matter of this thread, I can understand how outsiders may perceive this to be a chip on the preverbial shoulder.
However, I feel we bang on less about our common histories of English oppressive rule than our celtic cousins... But channel this aggression solely into matters on the rugby field, as civilised gentlemen rather than resorting to anti-social behaviour and the drawing of blood.
Thus, both parties (English and Welsh) understand and appreciate this and the harmless banter of fans continues off the field.
Some of my best friends are English!
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Redcoat you made my day with this post, supreme!!
I lived in Bangor, North Wales 1996-1998)for a couple of years. People there hate the English only slightly less than they hate Welsh people from south Wales!
It was a joy to watch Wales get stuffed out of site during that time, being in Wales, the enemies territory. I actually think I enjoy seeing England beat Wales more than any other other team except perhaps Australia or France.....its the equivalent of when England play Germany or Argentina at football,its that indefinable intense rivalry that makes for great games
18. At 05:21 PM on 15 Mar 2007, RedCoat wrote:
Interesting. Nice to see how the 2005 notions of the current side going onto another period of greatness have descended back into small minded provincialism.
I guess I've been watching 5 / 6 nations matches for about as long as you. My own personal favourite wins (hard to limit them to four, so I have six) are:
1991
Simon Hodgkinson kicks a record seven penalties to defeat the Welsh at Cardiff Arms Park for the first time in a million years. England's pack destroys the Welsh forwards. My father has me take a bottle of beer with a black ribbon round it to his Welsh "friend".
1997
Jeremy Guscott comes off the bench and destroys the highly feted Welsh backs with his speed and awareness in a superb second half display.
1998
England concede three tries and then destroy the Welsh with about 18 tries, Austin Healey making Neil Jenkins look like a one paced, one trick pony fly half woefully exposed out of position at full back (funny that). The ITV highlights (remember them) make the game look like an England training session.
2000
Lawrence Dallaglio drives through 14 Welshmen from 40 yards to score a memorable try, Phil Vickery dummies out of his own 22 and Neil Back drops a goal.
2001
Matt Dawson sidesteps his way to a glorious try in the Milennium stadium, Will Greenwood almost atones for his terrible bleached hair with a hat-trick.
2006
England blow the Welsh away with the worst centre partnership in their history and Ben Cohen on the wing: quite the achievement.
Apologies for absurd partizanship and what probably borders on xenophobia, and I'm sure two wrongs don't make a right, but, in the verbiage of the playground, you started it.
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Living in Wales it gets very depressing the way the Welsh big up the England game so much. As an English supporter it is just another game that I obviously want England to win, there's no special emphasis on it from an English point of view. If Wales go out and play well on Saturday and win from a Welsh perspective i would be really annoyed that they they put so much emphasis on the one game instead of playing well in all the others and doing well in the championship. It can be very wearing the way the Welsh harp on about this one game, the English are jsut seeing it as another six nations game.
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Why do the English get so hot under the collar when ribbed by the Welsh/Scots/Irish? There is always going to be a team that a side desperately wants to beat. After all, doesn't that apply to England v France? Take it as a compliment for goodness sake. I agree with a previous posting saying that competitive sport between historically rival nations is bound to have that added dimension and 'needle' by its very nature.
Regarding comments made about lack of ambition, of course Wales would love to be in the running for the World cup as would any other rugby playing nation, but that shouldn't detract from the desire to come out on top against your neighbour and historical rival.
Here's to a great match with hopefully the reds emerging victorious!
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as the Manic Street Preachers sang
"AS LONG AS WE BEAT THE ENGLISH, WE DON'T CARE"
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I think some of you English guys are missing the tone of this article somewhat. Sean Davies is lamenting the few victories that Wales have mustered against you guys. He is also lamenting the fact that he has never been able to celebrate those victories in style.
I don't think he is boasting about these great occasions. In fact he is acknowledging their scarcity.
I was cheering England against France and not because it opened up our (Ireland's) chances of the six nations title, but because you were underdogs against a good French side. I felt sorry for an English team who looked defeated in Croke Park before kick-off. Then they turned over France with a fantastic performance.
I have to say I'll be cheering Wales all the way this Saturday. Wales have played ok this year and have nothing to show for it. I particularly like some of the Welsh lads in Gareth Thomas, Shanklin and Stephen Jones (though he is not playing) and I think it will be very close. I think Wales have everything to prove and against a fairly green English team and actually look stronger on paper. If Wales can remember that their forwards' primary objective is to grunt and grind and not to play like backs, then they have every chance.
Everyone loves an underdog.... except if they are Italian and the date is 17th March 2007, of course!
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A match between two poor teams whose countries media hype them up when they win just so they can knock them down once again when they lose. There will be no winners from this game just false hope. Not nearly as gud as us French or we can say Ireland aswell
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I'm a Wales supporter, and no, beating england would not make up for losing the other 4 matches so far. For some people it would, I just haven't met any of them yet. Gareth Jenkins needs to be got rid of.
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I'm old enough to remember Wales in the 70's , infact in was watching Wales that turned me onto rugby, the likes of Barry John, JPR Williams, Gareth Edwards etc fantastic stuff.
I agree that winning is everything. I mean how would any englishman feel if Australia had dropped a goal to win the world cup and not Johnny? I imagine there's aussies who still have sleepless nights over that.
The whole point of sport is to win, to beat the opposition, otherwise don't bother.
whoever we support we want our team to win every single match for ever.
Wales v England in Wales or England is always a great fixture its going to be a great match, both teams have a huge point to prove. Infact all of these last 6 nations games are worth watching, all teams have a point to prove.
The best tournament in the World?
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Thanks for all the sensible comments, eg John Kaye, post 126.
It can get a bit depressing commenting on these things online as the enjoyable Anglo-Welsh rivalry/banter that I've always experienced in person on match days all too often descends into bitterness, bigotry and humourless name-calling on a computer screen.
National rivalries, playground rivalries, call them what you like... they exist when Wales play England. They can be a lot of fun. Now, I'm sure there are incidents where these things spill over. But any sensible rugby fan - English, Welsh, or otherwise - will be enjoying the whole Cardiff experience on Saturday.
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From Sean Davis's writings it's obvious that if Wales win he will be celebrating widly. What I want to know is what will he be doing if Wales loose ? Just so I can conjure up the picture on the long journey home on the M4...
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Message 14
Paul. all the nonsense about Anglo saxons and celts is an entire myth.
And the way people bang on about shows a huge amount of ignorance and that they know aboslutely nothing about a heritage they claim to be proud of!
it's becoming really, really tedious.
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You could take Sean's blog and cut and paste it every year. Same old rubbish. Boring. Move on. And by the way, technically the oldest enemy of the Welsh are the Italians (AKA the Romans), but don't let facts get in the way of a good story or gratuitous stereotyping.
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I love the way the Welsh/Irish/Scots make statements like "nobody likes the English". "Everyone hates the English, not just us". Sorry to disappoint you, but actually it is just you, plus a few Australians/NZers who are about as sophisticated as moronic English football fans who think they hate Germany/Argentina. I've lived and worked in France, Germany, Denmark, Poland and Russia. Sure there is banter in France around the time of important rugby matches, ditto Germany and football matches, but the rest of the time they have no strong opinions about us either way. Any why? Because their national identity is about what they are, not what they are not. As for Scandinavia and Eastern Europe, I invariably got a very positive response everywhere when people found out where I was from (Oxfordshire, incidentally). So sorry, but you are the only countries where signigicant numbers of people spend significant parts of their lives worrying about the English. (note the word English here, I'm not talking about people in the Middle East who might hate the entire English speaking world due to the war created by the Scot-dominated British Govermnent). Hate away, just don't try and justify your parochial attitudes with lies about other countries.
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As an Essex boy who lived in Wales. I love the rivalry just like we love the rivalry with the Scots, Irish Aussies, Kiwis etc. England love being the side everyone want to beat. We are the pantomine villans and baddies in every movie (see braveheart). Bring it on,in the right humour, as long as it is no just good old fashiioned racism (i.e we are all arrogant).
However I think the rivalry holds back our Celtic friends. If Ireland had put in 50 % of the England performance vs France they would have a Grand Slam. But they cannot because the one big game they peak for every year is England and more fool them we are not that good.
I think Wales stand a very good chance in Cardiff and it will be a good game a lot will depend on how our young players settle.
However I think in 2 years a serious England side will be back !!
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"As long as we beat the English" eh!
Lets look at the evidence;
Wales - at home, needing a good win to stand any chance of avoiding the wooden spoon, resonably well prepared team (if unsuccessful), all of the tribal passions that accompany this match
vs,
England - developing, title chance will have probably gone by kick off, some players will be 4th choice for their position (No 8 for example),relatively little combined international experience.
Yeah go on Wales be proud of your win. (But what if you lose?!?!)
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Their seems to be a few hypocritical comments here! Somebody saying that the comments here are "soccer like" in describing the fact that they do not represent the majority of the good natured "Rugby like" fans beyond these blogs.
Well let me tell you discriminating, ignorant and hypocritical bloggers (who stereotype) that not all soccer fans are mean, tribal & hooligan like. Maybe there are soccer hooligans, but Soccer is the worlds most popular sport. There are plenty of volinteers that takes kids soccer teams in Ireland out. Many of them are poor or from poverty stricken areas. The FAI sponsor a lot of these leages /events. I don't see the IRFU doing this! And I played both Soocer & Rugby growing up. In Leinster there were only private schools playing Rugby in the 90s with the exception of 1 or 2 schools but fortunately Munster seems to have spread the game to public schools. I for 1 think we should stop sterotyping, promote all sports and stop this labelling junk. As for healthy rivalries and slaggin I'm all for that but there is no need for such nasty tribalism! Let sport prevail this Saturday...
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If Wales start well, they will win. If they play with confidence, their fantastic, free-flowing rugby will be the result, and England will not be able to live with them. The only other NH teams who can live with them in full flow are Ireland & France.
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Post 112 - Mad Max
Quality son - and spot on
You only have to look to the one
Welsh loon who cut one of his knackers off after Wales won in 2005 following the loss of a bet
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ignoranuses . . . is that a wonderful pun or a spelling mistake?
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Glynn -True to a degree, there is the perception that rugby is played by public school toffee nosed people in my country. However, not the whole of England. It is a game loved by all people in the South West. I am a fiercely passionate Devonian and rugby is enjoyed by all down here. Im looking forward to a good game tomorrow. Im just distraught that Phil Vickery is not leading the front row.
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Jimmers (post 117) Im at Swansea Uni too and love the atmosphere in JCs on a match day, theres always a good mix of fans. One of the great things about rugby has always been the respect between the fans, there should never be a problem with enjoying a drink with each other during and after the game. But I have also noticed the increased booing of the anthems, from both sides, and it really annoys me. Last year some Welsh fans booed the English anthem during the Ireland game, it shouldnt happen. I will always tell the booing England fans to shut up, but hopefully I wont have to tomorrow.
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Post 103:
Couldnt it be argued that the English 2001 side, that scored a record 29 tries and record 229 points, won the slam with the most style and panache?
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A win over England would not make up for a poor six nations camapign, but it would be a sweet finish =D
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To Paolino,
As I was at the Stadio Flamino on Saturday and saw an Ok game of Rugby, I'd have to say Grandissimi Azzuri!
But the wooden spoon is not the coveted tool to stir things up.
Bergamasco (both of them) are very good players, but forearm smashes are not allowed in Rugby, I assume you now know this.
In the UK we cite that Rugby is a game for thugs played by gentlemen, football is a game for gentlemen played by thugs. I know this to be different in Italy, as all the thugs are on the terraces and piazza's post a game.
Come back with a prize winning comment when you have a grand slam, or beat a southern hemisphere side.
Until then enjoy the victory, good luck against the Irish, Forza Italia, but Cymru am byth.
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Wales has been rebuilding since the heady days of the 70's which I remember well. One day the rebuild might be finished; but not in my lifetime. Meanwhile we rejoice at beating the English because that is all the fun we get out of the 6 Nations. Above all, let's remember it's only a game. Fit young men sacrificing a social life and putting their bodies on the line for our enjoyment; let's give them a round of applause and a show of admiration and thanks, which ever team they represent.
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So much being said by the English here that beating Wales is not the be all and end all.
We like to win any game it's just that beating England makes it sweeter.
But unlike the English, us Welsh don't rip our team to pieces if we lose providing the players have given their all.
I have lived in Gloucester for 19 yrs and have suffered at the hands of English fans for the majority of those years as they continually beat us.
This year I will be in the bar at Kingsholm after the Gloucester game and I can assure you that if Wales lose I will not hear the last of it for many weeks. You wonder why we like to beat England????
I must admit I did gloat rather a lot in 2005 :-)
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every british nation wants to beat the english because thats all we here is, we won the world cup in 1966 and 2003 when have you won it. its nice to be smug about a victory back.
We have lost all our games but we dont care, as the stereophonics once famously sang:
"As Long As We Beat The English"
We don't wanna be your enemy,
But when we're on the field,
It's red, white and green,
Get beat by the Irish,
Get beat by the Scots,
The French ought'ta struggle,
But you're the one we want,
We want...
As long as we beat the English,
As long as we beat the English,
As long as we beat the English, we don't care
As long as we beat the English,
As long as we beat the English,
As long as we beat the English, we don't care
We don't care
Watch it!
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After reading this blog I can reach only one conclusion- the English are still BORING! e.g. 70,77,82,87,123,130 but especially 91 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Can we remind ourselves who are the current Grand Slam holders? WALES of course.
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I belive Wales can pull off a win this weekend, and altough it wont make up for a poor 6 nations, it will be a steping stone to the world cup.
It will also knock the english supporters back down a few pegs, and stop them thinking they are the best team in the world again after a few wins and avreage displays!
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It amazes me when reading comments from England fans on this site knocking us Welsh for holding onto the memories of our last 4 victories against England. It is the arrogance attached to their posts that is really surprising. The tone suggests that an Englishman would never resort to holding onto those strands of success that may have been achieved several years earlier. Well let me remind you that every time England play football/cricket etc. we can always hear the echoes of "Two world wars and one World Cup" resounding around the bars, clubs and stadia across England all of which happened to be won over half a century ago now! They even have chart topping songs such as "Three Lions" and its subsequent re-release that the English religiously know more of the words to than their own national anthem "God Save the Queen"!!
We may still talk about the Grand Slam of 2005 much like we still here about the Ashes victory of that same year but unlike the English we accept that we are not necessarily the best team in the world and just live in hope each time we play. This realisation does make victory ever so sweet against fans that quite clearly act amazed when anyone beats them at any sport. Following the bewildered looks on their faces the rest of us stand there listening to a host of excuses...these may include Wilkinson being injured or the loss of Michael Vaughan in the cricket, or then again it may be Ronaldo's fault for winking in the football or was it the ref?? and...the list goes on. Sometimes you just need to accept that the English, much like the rest of the British Isles, are a bit hit or miss really when it comes to sport.
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142 - It was the Steroephonics. Know your Welsh bands (and I'm English).
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The reason people go on about the Henson dumping Tate was mainly because the media built up his inclusion, and does not matter how big he is you should not get dumped like that. Thing is every time we get a new player we build them up, and we end up shooting our selves in the foot, as Henson’s head has been in the shed for a while now I just hope Hook can handle the same hero worship.
When Wales were hammering England ( by more than 2 points) with the best players in the world and the Lions went on to beat the all blacks taking 16 welsh players one of which was an uncapped player from Wales, personally I just enjoyed the rugby and celebrated all the countries that played . Things started going down hill for Wales when more than the average amount of influential players went north. England had a great crop of players(wonder why they never went north mmm) their world cup was deserved , and catt was the one who put Wales to the sword with his intelligence, some thing big J was not able to do.
But long before this England were starting to negotiate their own TV contract, and saying that the Ö÷²¥´óÐã nations were now not good enough for England started their own league and filled it full of foreign imports , and they were talking of joining the tri nations. They did the same with football , this is why we have to try to beat England because we need to play them and keep the home nations together it is the greatest tournament I have watched .The thing is as soon as England get the upper hand they talk about being too good for the likes of us and start using posh words like myopic even if they beat us by 2 points .This Saturday I will be in my Canadian basement with my arrogant English friend drinking beer and shouting at the TV hoping I wont need to apply for Canadian citizenship and I can keep my Welsh passport, this is what Rugby is about , because my arrogant English friend will still be my friend after the game unlike football.
Hand bags at 40 paces tomorrow, no silly reffing , and the winner should be rugby
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I don't think we should criticise the Welsh for harping back to the 70s for their glory day in rugby.....unless we also criticise them for harping back to the 12th century which is when the real roots of their hatred of the English lies.
Let's face it - if they are so fired up about stuff that happened that long ago then we should actualy sympathise with the poor devils.
Come on all you Welshmen, join the modern World - what Welshman has been harmed or discriminated against by the English recently. After all, we in the south-east prop up your economy with our taxes, and you contribute significantly to our government and its discrimination against the English. It is the English being shafted by a Celtic labour government.
So let's all just enjoy the rugby for what it really is...... a great sport played by men who are honourable and courageous.
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Nigel, post 148 - if Wales lose I will be doing much the same as if they win, I'll just be slightly glummer. I'll be drinking in the same pubs, with the same group of friends. Those friends will be Welsh, English and Irish (and before anyone starts, I don't have anything against the Scots, Italians or French!). It's just that if Gareth Jenkins' team lose me and my Welsh friends will be on the wrong side of the banter.
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You must all be so young!
For those of us of a certain age, Wales defeating England IS the natural order of things. I still can't shake that feeling of unreality when England walk from the field victorious - them being World Champions or not!
I was moved, kicking and screaming at the time, from the Cynon Valley to southern England. I was 14 it was 1966. 1965 had seen Wales victorious over England while I had captained my welsh Grammar school's under 13 and under 14 teams to victories over the teams of Sherborne Boys School - English Schools champions at the time I understand. 1966 - while England rise to the top in that other sport requiring a ball, Wales again assume their rightful position as England's superior in the use of the oval ball.
For the next 15 years that was exactly how it remained - apart from a blip in 1968 when a draw occurred and - in what I can only assume to be Devine intervention to prevent England from being totally demoralised - a victory for England in 1974.
Yes, I don't feel any particular need to beat England it's just that I look forward to every match KNOWING we will.
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Calm down all. Rivalry is rivalry is is always there (I'm English). The English will always be 'arrogant' and the Welsh will shout it from the roof tops. If it motivates the players twice as much then so be it. Post #164 sums it up, he says he gets so much stick for ages if the welsh loose but he fails to metion that it is exactly the same the other way round. All part of the fun that drives rugby. I wish all NH could sides get so passionate and hyped about beating the ABs.
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Hmmmm! The old tries versus kicks debate.
Maybe the critics of England as a penalty kicking team that wins boring matches should study their rugby history.
At its inception (In England by the way) the aim of Rugby was to kick the ball through the sticks. Crossing the try line earned the player the right to TRY to kick through the posts. The clue is in the name - a TRY!
So let's not condemn the kickers - they are the exponents of the original aim of the game.
It is a modern evolution that has seen the try worth more points than the kicks.
At the end of the day, points are points - and a win a win.
end of story really!
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Owain Glydwyr post 138
Rorkes Drift was fought by the South Wales Borderers who had been garrisoned in Warwickshire before they were sent to Zululand. As was the tradition in those days, the regiment recruited from its garrison twon rather than its territorial title area. Thus about 50% of the men at Rorkes' Drift were ENGLISH. Sorry mate - its a matter of military history - FACT. It was a great effort by a bunch of desperate heroes - nationality is irrelevant in those circumstances.
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There has never been anything wrong with the rivalry between England & Wales (or Scotland & Ireland), infact I enjoy it. I live in North Wales & it's when any team playing England is cheered to win, i.e. so long as England lose. Yes I'm English & support them first, however, so long as Wales, Scotland or Ireland or not them, I will support them.
Anyway, I'll be in the pub tomorrow night, being one of the few English, supporting England & looking forward to the passion/fun on the night.
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I'd like to hold blog number 165 as further evidence of the point I made in blog 91. Apparently English people are all 'arrogant' presumably as opposed to the more 'balanced' Welsh (who cannot be arrogant because the English are). This is a gross generalisation and reflects the ignorance of the writer. Thanks for backing up my point.
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Oh lostwelshman (#164) where have you been for the last 2 months!
How can you say that the Welsh don't rip their team apart after losing.
I've even seen blogs talking about Steven Jones and Gareth Jenkins and they were far from complimentary.
At least the English carry the expectations appropriate for the reigning world champions.
The reason that the celtic nations enjoy beating England so much is beacuse of the 1000 years of having their botty's spanked in whatever conflict existed at the time.
Now the nations have grown up and can live together reasonably civilly we should all be proud that the conflicts only exist in the healthy environment of sport and, when necessary stand together against the SH (Lions).
I'm English and personally enjoy the spice between the home nations, how boring life would be if games got predictable and went to form all the time.
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Post 170
Explain penalties then Steve.
It is the fact that penalties can be kicked through the posts that has spoilt the game. That teams like England play for territory so they can make the defending team offend or appear to offend.
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I simply cannot understand all this fuss about public school rugby. As a former (minor) public schoolboy I deplore the way in which the game was misguidely exported to less developed nations and corrupted in several unpleasant ways. Firstly, why has this winning thing become so important? Quite takes the fun out what should be some brisk exercise followed by a communal bath. Secondly, the sheer physical ugliness of some their players, especially compared to Blenkinsop Minor floating down the right wing like a cross between a Greek god and thread of gossamer undulating in the breeze. Since when did fisticuffs become known as handbags? And while I'm at it I think that it is very familiar to keep addressing one's butler as Eddie. Heaven knows what it could lead to! One can only hope that WRFU can at least select a side of gentlemen who know how to do the decent thing.
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wales will have to try very hard to beat england this weekend they will have to go through the backs as the forwards are just too strong atm, with flood in at fly half and the boost of confidence he will have had at beating france you will have trouble containing him, you will need to be in his face time and time again as he is only young put him under pressure and he will crack. but what have wales got too offer right now i dunt think there is quite a lot they can be good going forward but they lack the killer instinct i predict a very heavey defeat for wales unless htey can keep it tight up front
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Of course the other teams want to beat England in the six nations as they are the WORLD CHAMPIONS still.
Despite being poor for the last three years (mainly due to retirements) every side in the world still judge themselves against England until next year when everyone will be judging themselves against the next world champions NZ.
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wales will be a tough game for england, they will be extremely up for the occassion, as they always are, but i can't help but think if wales do beat the english it will go down as a successful championship, i suppose its the welsh mentality and has been for as long as i can remember. and can i remind u rob edwards thet we are the current world champions, doesnt mean we are the best side in theworld, cos we're not, just as wales are not the best europe has to offer, as the championship has shown so far, saying that should be a good game, however i think the english front five will be too much for the welsh and they should win by roughly 5 points, but it'll be a well fought game. p.s. if we are talking about good tackles, what henson did to tait has been sooo overrated and sadly has become something of a legendary welsh moment, compare that tackle to the tackle on the southafrican prop by scott gibbs (a great player) on the lions tour, noooo contest. come on the english!!, however.
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Post 177 Steve
You're not as intelligent as you would like to think you are Steve, as I referred to Rorke's Drift as just one example of when the Welsh have "contributed as much in terms of the lives of men... to putting the Great firmly into Great Britain."
The key word here Steve is "Contributed". The context in which it was put, was being proud of our heritage as a contributing country of the union.
I'm aware of the facts of the battle and indeed the South Wales Borderers, having visited the museum in the old barracks in Brecon, South Wales, many times, and the purpose of mentioning this well known battle was to emphasise the point I mentioned above, not spur an discussion on the semantics of the regiment's composition.
I could have used many examples of when our Welsh men who have given their lives and won wars for Britain, e.g. the Welsh archers who won the Battle of Agincourt for King Henry V. We also have enough names of dead soldiers from both World Wars to warrant cenotaphs in every town and village in Wales. Whenever there's been bother since in places like the Falklands or Iraq, the Welsh Guards have been amongst the first regiments there sorting it out (please note the use of the word "amongst" here Steve).
If you want to get pedantic again Steve, please ensure you read the posts before writing in ignorance.
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This is typical of any blog unfortunatley. All the nutters come out. I told myself I wouldn't read the comments, but I gave in, knowing they would upset me. All I can say is this, England are our local derby. They have been the much, much better than us over the past 25 years.. So yes, Wales would love to beat them (and it doesn't matter how much by).
But please god understand, that know one hates the English in Wales. We just want to beat England at rugby for the obvious reasons!! Please respect the fact that we are the underdogs against a huge rugby nation. Its banter.
When I read these blogs it makes me wonder where some of the people come from! Comments from Welsh and English alike. Comment 78 and 79 by a welshman and englishman respectively are incredibly distateful. I'm going to my local on Saturday where Welsh and English will mix and have the usuall banter. This generalising of nationalalities has to stop. If you want to see how it can develop to full blown racism, just look at you-tube!
Rugby fans are better than this. Rugby to win on Saturday. Respect to each other.
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hahahahaha! "As the manic street preachers sang..." I've been laughing about that since it was posted. Anyway, I'm Welsh and have lots of English mates and thats what makes these games so special. The banter, the build up, the rivalry, all in good nature. Everyone knows the divisions between countries, but I believe we should all be proud of who we are, but not ignorant or dismissive of other cultures. I don't hate the English, I just mildly dislike the English rugby team (especially Grewcock!). Who wears white in a grass and earth based game anyway?? :)
On another note "How Mathew Tait has turned the tables on Gavin Henson" - surely the Beeb has seen something we haven't..? Anyway, here's to a good game.
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maybe these handy statistics should shine some light on the rivalry between the welsh and the english (apart from the obvious conquering of us in medieval times!!)
England:
Tournaments:105
Outright Wins(Shared Wins):25 (10)
Grand Slams:12
Triple Crowns:23
Wales:
Tournaments:105
Outright Wins(Shared Wins):23 (10)
Grand Slams:9
Triple Crowns:18
so as you can see, england arent that far ahead of wales in terms of history in the tournament, and we are also englands closest rivals during the history of the competition.
also, here are the Head to Head results (in all competitions) from the 6 nations website
Played 114
Wales won 50
England won 52
Drawn 12
so there really is nothing between us historically really.
but i say come on wales, stick it up em on saturday!
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Douglas 181
fair enough riposte mate - but what I was really driving at is that kicking - in whatever form is now part of the game - it was brought in by the IRB and its predecessors to make the game more watchable and competitive. What is so wrong with exploiting an opportunity? If a team is vulnerable to penalties then they should change their styl. And let's face it - England have LOST games because of their poor discipline - so should we simply blame England for playing boring rugby.
I just would like to see a bit of balance and objectivity in the discussions. Sadly, mny of the posts on here are simply emotional or just spiteful - not based on sound arguments.
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I hope with all my heart that England beat Wales by a massive margin tomorrow. Normally I would think it more important that we had a good game, whatever the result. But I have just returned from Rome where I spent Saturday cheering on the Welsh (alongside my Welsh-supporting father) and then Sunday listening to the viscious comments being made against England by the Welsh all around us in the Roman pubs watching England play France. I was gobsmacked at the strength, nay visciousness of their feelings, and could not believe that sport could bring out such hatred among fellow rugby fans. Actually we concluded that these one-eyed Welshmen and women were not rugby fans at all. Just bigots. Will that be last time I ever cheer Wales on against another country? The jury's still out. So come on all you Welsh supporters out there, show me that you're a nation worth cheering for again!
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Gareth, your 182 post is spot on mate.
I'm Welsh, are your right, thoses Henson tackles have been well over-rated, mostly by the bbc I might add. I think your front 5 will have, as always, too much for us. Should be a good game if we get parity in the forwards. The English backs are looking dangerous.
Again your spot with your comparison of Henson and Gibbs, no contest.
Head says England by 9, Hearts says Wales by a last minute drop goal, now I'm dreaming.
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I wrote way back in the early part that it was all about the ribbing people give and take. It's fun for most the time and shouldn't be taken too seriously at all. Anglo Welsh rivalries have been around for centuries. Some bloke called Offa even built a huge dyke to divide the countries! Why would anyone expect that centuries of old rivalry would dissappear?
But that's not the point...the point is that all of this, the blog, the banter..it's all FUN. Welsh people love to see England slip up as much as English love to see the Welsh slip up. It's only bragging rites now. If there was a trophy at stake then the game has more importance. Right now as a Welshman I'd take a win against anyone but guess what we're playing England so not only is it a win but it's one up on "the ol' enemy". Crack on!
All I can hope for is a cracking match, good rugby to watch and a few beers with the mix of Welsh, English, Irish, Scots, French, Italians, one of the many Aussie or South African barstaff that seem to have invaded all the locals these last few years... As a Welsh comedian once put it...it's all to be able to say "I was there.."
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Being a true Englishman I am very arrogant and proud of it. There is no denying we Englishmen are arrogant and we should revel in it, not bow down to the pressures of bloggers from the principalities and try to deny or excuse it. It is my birthright as an Englishman and is borne of a natural superiority over all other nations. The only reason I moved to Austria was to be among my inferiors and treat them with the contempt they deserve. I'm considering moving to Cardiff next.
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have to say as an irish fan i'm loving this debate! i personally feel that if england win, it won't ,matter to me but if wales win it won't ,matter to me. whichever side wins will obviously have deserved to win. i have no probs with the welsh or the scots but sometimes it's kind of annoying to be grouped in as the celtic nations versus the english. to be honest i havent spent much time in wales or scotland and i dont really know many welsh or scottish ppl. not saying their not nice ppl but i have lots of englsiuh friends and not once ( well except when they won the world cup) could i ever accuse them of arrogance. to be honest i would support england if it came down to it, i did in the world cup final. however it's lin d of good being irish as we generally get along well with most of the home nations fans! although i must say it's nice having beaten england 43 to 13 and fourth yeeat in a row so i can take the piss out of my english mates. however after the france game i got it, so it all works out pretty evenly ha ha.
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Tom Jones 166
What an INTERESTING contribution to the blog. Good job you are not boring mate - you'd have to become an Englishman.
Now, why didn't you make some astute and relevant comment about the merits of the two teams playing tomorrow?
You could have examined the relative form of the two teams, discussed the styles of the two coaches, team selection, why both teams are playing below their optimum form.
But that would not have been anywhere near as interesting as your blog.
He he!
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Hate us if it makes you feel good - but surely you should put your efforts in to playing Rugby, not hating people, Ruddock etc.
For the record
1) NZ
2) Ire
3/4 France England
5) Argentina
6) South Africa
7) Aus
8) Sumoa
9) Scotalnd
10) Italy
12) Romania
13) Georgia
14) Canada
15) Iceland
16) USA
17 Kenya
18) J Lomu
19) Andorra
20) Isle of Wright
21) Wales
Bring on 5.30am
10
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Post 172 Steve
How much tosh do you actually talk?
When was the last time we were shafted by the English? Maybe not in recent years but here's three example's in living memory:
1.) Aberfan disaster 1966 - in the aftermath of the terrible disaster, the village was forced to pay for the removal of the precarious slag heaps out of their own fund - and that was after some substantial petitioning after the labour government backtracked on earlier promises. Tony Blair of Labour recently gave back the money to the Aberfan people for the upkeep of graves and memorial park but did not see fit to include inflation, but at the 1966 amount, i.e. £150,000 instead of £1.5m.
2.) Miners' strike and subsequent closure of mines 1980s. Lots of hungry mouths in the valleys, lots of unemployment and lots of apathy from Margaret Thatcher and the like. Now the Labour Government is talking about coal again, now the gas/oil is running out - I wonder who where the first port of call will be?
3.) Flooding the populated valley of Tryweryn about 40 years ago, destroying a verberant community to provide drinking water for the people of Liverpool.. For which they have only recently apologised.
In summary, the Welsh can be likened to the people of New Orleans. No-one's going to rush to our corner when times are rough but take all we have as we're British after all!!!
Finally, as for your taxes - I think you should really get your facts right here. Yes there are poor or what TB's Government have labelled "Deprived" communities in Wales but:
1) It was convenient for the valley communities to be kept quiet in their social position so that the environment could get ripped to shreds and the people would work in treacherous conditions without objection;
2) There are poor communities all over Britain, i.e. including England. Remember the North?
I hope you are able to take in these points while you are sunning yourself in Essex, rolling in all your hard-inherited cash with your chaved up girlfriends.
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Forget world cup’s forget grand slams 15 Red vs 15 White is always special. This year Wales are wounded and desperate. England are renewed but fragile. I expect mistakes a plenty, commitment in buckets but above all a great afternoon of rugby. I coach a bunch of 11 year olds who are just beginning to understand just how much fun this sport is. This weekend they will see what it is all about.
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Post 181
Rubbish. So many teams are cynical and kill the ball to prevent tries. The penalty is the thing that keeps them honest along with the sin bin (Grewcock). Stopping the killing of the ball is the thing that makes more tries. For some daft reason now a team cannot really clear out. Bring back shoeing !!!
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My god, how arrogant are some of you Welsh people. You say that the English are arrogant, I think that you have taken our mantle at that sport.
If some of you truely believe that one game can salvage your season, then psychiatric help is needed. Both teams have had a poor season so far, neither side are looking good for the WC 07, keep deluding yourselves that everything will be ok as long as you win one game out of 10, 11 or maybe 12.
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RE 180 Jim
England may carry the expectations of the current World Champions, what they havent done however is PLAY rugby like World Champions. I think I am right in saying they have by far the worst record as World Champions, which is such a shame.
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Just to add to post 120. Usually if a team wins by kicking lots of penalties it is because the opposition has unfairly prevented them from playing open, running rugby.
That's why they get all the penalties.
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Ok guys, must admit that post 197, the rugby league table, is pretty funny.
Welshman with a sense of humour.
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I would rather win the other 4 games and lose to england!
Under Jenkins I doubt we will win anyhow, a 20% win ratio is dire considering the players at his disposal, ashton has been bold and played players in form we havent thats why we are heading for the wodden spoon do us all a favour and go now jenkins
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owain 138.
You bang on about having retained national identity etc and your pride in that. And then you refer to yourself as Celtic.
Thereby proving you're not even aware of the reality of your national identity. The celtic thing is a myth and a very boring one at that.
By the way; I spotted what you did in another blog. Cahnged my name from Guy to Gay. Massive intellect that!
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Verdict:Ireland are pre-tournament favourites with Wales second.
Former Wales captain Ieuan Evans dated 2.2.07
Well that could be 50% right if france slip up.
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A couple of people have referred to the great Scott Gibbs tackle on "the South African" prop in the Lions Tour of '97.
It wasn't a tackle, it was a superb charge at Oz Du Randt by Gibbs, (probably 5 stones lighter) who was in possession of the ball at the time just outside the Boks 22, if memory serves right.
Hm. Its now officially rugby week-end, I need a beer.
Is anybody else mildly concerned for Jimmers going to the match dressed as an English knight? Youthful exuberance is great, son, but King Arthur and the rest of the Round Table might come in useful on Queen Street on Saturday night if England put 40 points past the Welsh.
(Only kidding - I'll sure you'll be well received by Welsh and English supporters on the day... my Cossack outfit went down a storm in the Old Arcade way back in the Seventies...)
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Sean Davies approach to the match between England and Wales,shared by many others in the principality, and his failure to see the bigger picture is probably why Wales will not be winning the next world cup.
the lack of quality players, quality coaches and decent adminstrators is proably more of a reason we wont
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The biggest of the 6 Nations games...and the final one for both teams. So, 'As long as we beat the English' really does mean everything! Wales have been unlucky through injuries the past two years, and with no continuity..how can you build on the Grand slam year. No other team has has that much bad luck, but with Hook at 10 and Alfie in the centre playing our natural expansive game...i see a good win for the boys!! Lets get back on track and use this as a spring board to getting some belief and push for a good world cup!
Dewch ymlaen Cymru
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Post 204
...and Graham Henry said that Wales would win it! That's the first mistake he's made in 3 years...proof positive that he is already under-estimating England.....!
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Just to quell some of the mutual paranoia that has been spouted on this blog. When England played Argentina in the soccer world cup in 2002 I was in a packed pub in Bridgend and in excess of 80% of my fellow welshmen were supporting England. When england won the rugby world cup in 2003 it appeared to me that a significant number of welsh rugby fans were pleased that they had won the final. This is despite feeling that we should/could have beaten them in the quarters. The banter and hyperbole that goes with tomorrow's game is just part of the tradition and both sets of supporters give as good as they get.
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can anybody tell me out there how many points do we need to beat wales by
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Well Well Well i cant wait to see my fellow welshmen crunch the english on saturday. Wales are undoubtobly the best team in the six nations but have not had the chance to shine against other teams as they were so bad. And everyone knows that it is impossible to ply well against a good team. Everyone who reads this will definately agree that wales rule the six nations.
Jonathan Keplar
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Jason Leonard - public school? Don't think so.
There may be some hints of public schoolness in the Ö÷²¥´óÐã Counties but down here in Devon rugby is a game for everyone.
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Arrogant? Moi? The reason the known universe have a dislike, nay - hatred of we English is because they are jealous. We can politely pat them on their heads because we all know, homo sapiens is divided into two sub-categories; the ENGLISH, and those who wish they were English.
p.s.
If you have Ö÷²¥´óÐã interactive then listen to the commentary on Ö÷²¥´óÐã Radio Wales, it'll be a hoot ;-)
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Post 206 Obviously heterosexual person
In the words of Bob Dylan (who took his name from one of Wales's great poets); "Don't criticise what you can't understand!"
No myths. It is possible to feel both a national identity and a cultural identity.
I don't blame the English for not being able to understand this, what with their lack of culture and all!
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Owain, you're still not getting it are you?
It's really not rocket salad. The myth is that the Welsh (and Scottish and Irish) belong to some homogenous Celtic tribe that exclusively settled those parts of the British Isles.
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Well, #wales have the prospect of the wooden spoon huh. It pains me to see such a proud rugby nation folding soo badly. If Saturday`s game was against England i`d definitely have my fingers crossed for them. What is happening to Welsh rugby? Can someone explain??
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Having grown up a generation later, I'm used to the almost continual sight of England beating Wales at rugby. In fact, anything else just seems wrong.
I think the difference between the two sides over the past twenty years or so is that when Wales have won, it's only been by a point or two. When England have won, it's tended to be more of an pasting.
I'm hoping that the trend continues and Wales get a pasting....
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I am fed up with this argument, I am an ex service man who has serviced with men from around the UK. Support your country (e.g. Wales, Scotland England and Northern Ireland). As long as the strongest team on the day wins what does it mater.
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For the sake of Welsh rugby going forward I hope Wales lose this weekend.
If we (yes I am Welsh) win the rest of the 6N will be viewed as an unfortunate glitch.
However I believe there is something fundamentally wrong with the state of the Welsh game, whether it be fitness, form, management or morale (or any combination thereof).
Something stinks and it needs to be turned around.
If it takes a thrashing from England to turn things around then so be it.
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England and their money dominate the IRB. Referees know this. At the back of their minds they know that if the give poor decision against the English they might not get to referee a game again. So it could be argued that perhaps they subconsciously sometimes give England the benefit of the doubt because of this pressure. A Welsh sin binning, a crucial penalty, an unjust England try, or so many more slightly doubtful decisions – who knows what will happen on Saturday? But on the other hand if a Welshman swings a punch do we think that Jonathan Davies will demanding that he is cited and banned for life? Lie back after the kick off and watch the sparks fly. It’ll be fun.
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Don't worry Wales, at least you're better than ..........um............um.....................
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"as long as the strongest team wins" what rubbish....the mating call of the loser,i say!sport is all about the winning and the communal shower afterwards of course.NZ of the 70's and the present team cheat like %$!& but they win so......does that make them the strongest or the cleverest??Wales are too honest and in some ways stuck in their"love of rugby"to win crucial games(1 would do)Did Gareth Edwards ever win a world cup ???i think not!!!The good thing about the wc winning English team was their ability to cheat within the laws(witness Dawson,Grewcock,but especially Neil Back)."Cheaters never prosper"so spoke Xenophon.They never played rugby in ancient greece obviously!!!!
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post 212 or Paul Williams(if that is your name??)
I too was in Bridgend for the England- Argie game and distinctly remember YOU booing the Beckham penalty and refusing to watch them playing Brazil in the quarters due to" xenophobic tendencies"I wonder if you put your post down to a bad memory or maybe your love of m people?Typical of the Welsh philosophy I'm afraid,selective memory that suits the arguement at that time witness JPR at the G3 summit of 1977....."i love doctoring me,tidy like etc doctor Shippman?never met him..."
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Are the welsh really so disheartened with their rugby that they are happy losing 80% of their games and just winning 1 against it has to be said an avarage side, when i started playing and watching rugby where a great side and even 10 years later their fans were convinced they would win everything and based success on that, where has the pride gone?
Surely that mighty Welsh dragon will rise again to former glories? and as an English man i hope it will dose at is will make me happier when we win more satisfying.
But having siad that win or lose you will still be drinking just the tone of the song will change
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@Post 217:
Are you referring to the same Dylan Thomas that said, 'Land of my fathers? My fathers can have it!'? Icidentally, the reason why we English don't continually refer to one great poet (witness also the Scots with Rabbie Buens) is that we have so many: Shakespeare, Wordsworth, Tennyson, Milton, Chaucer etc. etc. I concede that the Irish do have their fair share of greats, though.
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To handy-legend, living in England, i have not been able to forget about the 47-13 drubbing wales recieved a couple of years ago........ or the defeat to Italy........ however, I have never ever insulted an Englishmen about the standard of their teams play....... if they lose, they lose its life, its upsetting enough for them without gloating foreigners....... I believe if your team beats another, it should not be rubbed in nastily as this is behaviour that is not in any way sporting, or does belong to the game of Rugby. Good luck Wales btw!
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Ah Tarquin!! just when I thought I could get away with it, You got me bang to rights - I thought that it was a strange coincidence that tarquin de otter had posted a comment. I didn't think there was more than one. I think your memory has been beer-adled. I never said that I liked the m-people and when England play France,Australia, South Africa or NZ I want the English to win (mostly)!! I may have booed Beckham, but that has nothing to do with Xenophobia it was just the beer booing!!
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perfidiousalbion-That is some of the funniest stuff ive ever read on a blog site! Do you by any chance frequent thechap.net?
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In 1994 Wales won the 5 Nations for the last time. They went into the last game V England having played three and won three. England beat Wales that day 15-8 but Wales won the championship.
I was 14 years old at the time and the Welsh rugby team wouldn't make me that happy until 2005. Ieuan Evans said something to the effect of "Manchester United wouldn't care if they won the championship but lost on the last day of the season." and he was right, they wouldn't. I was overjoyed at the fact that Wales had won the 5 nations championship, the greatest championship on the planet. I didn't care that we lost.
Of course I like to see Wales beat England, I like to see Wales beat anyone (especially these days) England is a special game because they are our closet country, we have a huge history with them. It's like a local derby a game designed for bragging rights.
But when those bragging rights become more important than winning championships or world cups then we have a real problem. I hope Wales beat England, I really do, I don't want them to lose all their games again.
Beating England doesn't give us creditability, winning the 6 nations does, beating Australia, South Africa, Argentina or New Zealand in their home country or winning the world cup, they are the important things, they will give us the credibility we need.
If Wales beat England (which I don't think they will) this Saturday I hope it will not distract the nation from the awful, awful 6 Nations it's been for Wales, that would be fatal to any world cup plans.
Oh and for a display of senseless patriotism, I loved it when Wales beat England in 1993 because England rolled into Cardiff as if the grand slam was their God given right!
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Well I am English- but if Wales could win to-morrow,Scotland beat France and Italy hammer Ireland by a good few points, I will be happy- I backed Italy to win 6 Nations at 200-1. They make the Ö÷²¥´óÐã Nations look pretty poor when an Italian team is within whisper of winning. Had they more belief against England,i reckon I could be in for a big pay day. So lets applaud the Italians and wonder what is going on in Rugby in the other 5 Nations -we are failing to make progress- all of us. NZ on current form will walk the World Champs- and that should be the concern, not just England /Wales playing a match.
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Think people have missed the point - Rugby is Wales' National sport, if we can't beat our favourite rivals in our own sport, what can we beat them at?
We like to beat England because thats all we ever hear about on the UK news is how the England team is doing! It does embitter you about England if, like me, you don't give a monkey's what England are up to...
I remember the victory in 2005, as I spent the weekend with the English, the only guy wearing a Wales top, and I was ribbed to death for it ... until Henson's Boot went off....!
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WALES TO WIN BY20 POINTS AND ME TO DRINK 20 PINTS OF GUINNESS ON SATURDAY, ONE OF THESE STATEMENTS IS FACT
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Response to David - entry 216
Well,all I can say is that I am proud, very proud to be Welsh. I have lived in England for most of my life, however I certainly do not wish I was English and I never will do. You underestimate what is a very proud nation!! Best of luck to the Welsh team tomorrow, as much as I don't want people to think that a win against England would be a one off, I would never want my team to lose.
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my god but you're sad reliving little fragmented moments of glory from the past 28 years.It's not like you've achieved anything apart from one grand slam!
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re Gavin Lloyd post 7
no Italy weren't officially in the six nations at that point but all the nations played them and if i remember Alfie bagged 4 tries that day.
At the end of the day winning games is important, bheating teams that are closest to you is even more important which is why Cardiff love to beat ponty, Narbeth love to beat pembroke, bristol city love to beat bristol rovers. rivalrys make sport that much better they add the edge. the needle, helps to improve your game.
I'll Be screaming for a welsh win Saturday, with all my heart and soul, but there will be a little bit of my brain thats thinking is it the best thing for the country if we do, cause it'll give jenkins the abilty to say we've turned the corner. when we wont have. and the sooner that Jobs for the boys is drop kicked like Wilkinson did to the Oz the better.
I just hope we play like the under 20s did tonight. they weere amazing in defence
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I quite like the fact Wales consider it such a big rivalry between themselves and Wales for an Englishman the two teams I really like to see us win against are the English and the Welsh and if England lost every single game in the six nations but beat Wales I'd still be gutted I wouldn't clutch at straws saying it all be alright if we just beat the Welsh, for me it is just the welsh trying to reatin some pride for being the worst team at their favourite sport.
Also Simon if anything the media in the Uk positively discriminates giving much more coverage to Wales Scotland and N. Ireland than they merit population wise for every one article about Wales there should be 16 about England as England as sixteen times the size yet the welsh complain when it's not 1:1. Become signficant and then maybe you'll get some coverage lol.
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Crezza - you missed my point. Rugby's equivalent in England is football. In Wales EVERYONE will be well aware of the game tomorrow, while in England half the population will not be aware it's on. Meanwhile here in Toronto it's just started snowing again and tomorrow I will have to drive for twenty minutes to pay $20 to get into a bar to watch the game. And the company who produce the video feed have a deal with Guinness!
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Houstie, presumably when you say 'every other team in the UK' you mean the ONLY other UK team in the six nations, i.e. Scotland.
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if Wales beat England on sat all will be forgiven
on the population stats England should win at least 16 times more than Wales that’s why its such a big thrill when the smaller nations beat the super world leaders in losing (cricket whitewashed again .football its been 41 years sorry forgot about the tiddlywinks championships 1978)
alan hughes (croke pk 2007)
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read a few bitter comments so thought instead of selectively picking a time period, we should refer to the all time stats.
Games played: 114
Games won by England: 52
Games lost by England: 50
Games drawn: 12
Most wins in a row for England over Wales: 7
Most losses in a row for England to Wales: 5
Largest points for England: 60 60 - 26
Largest points against England: 34 34 - 21
Largest winning margin for England: 40 50 - 10
Largest losing margin for England: 25 25 - 0
Total points for England: 1,386
Total points against England: 1,228
Average points for England per game: 12.16
Average points against England per game: 10.77
Average points difference per game between England and Wales: 1.39
So England have had quite a good last 19yrs or so. But in the larger scheme of things, a country with 25 times the population is on an even keel with Wales....not a huge achievement really, is it?
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Hi I wonder who won the under 20 grand slam?
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I have scanned this blog and found plenty of banter and the usual to and fro. I will be sitting watching this on telly with a special glow as by then we will be champs.We will be in the pub at one o'clock on St patricks day. If the rugby in Cardiff is not rivetting (as it may well not be!) I will be tuned to the Cricket.. Ireland Vs The Mighty Pakistan....two world cups in one year..... and Fermanagh for the all Ireland.....Oh for dreams..
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Owain glendwyr - 186
My point exactly mate - it was a joint anglo welsh battle!!
So.... NO I wasn't trying to be intelligent - just point out that the rivalry is all about sport - not history or politics.
Not getting into it mate - just wanted to make the point that your reference to Rorke's Drift was irrelevant seeing as it was a great example of the English and the Welsh standing together.
Don't need to say any more I think
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Niel Kinnock 198 wrote
When was the last time we were shafted by the English? Maybe not in recent years but here's three example's in living memory:
1.) Aberfan disaster 1966 - in the aftermath of the terrible disaster, the village was forced to pay for the removal of the precarious slag heaps out of their own fund - and that was after some substantial petitioning after the labour government backtracked on earlier promises.
Steve Says: That was a Labour Government dominated by Welsh and Scottish MPs
The slag heaps collapsed because they were not constructed properly or maintained - how is that a case of the English shafting the Welsh
Niel Kinnock 198 wrote
2.) Miners' strike and subsequent closure of mines 1980s. Lots of hungry mouths in the valleys, lots of unemployment and lots of apathy from Margaret Thatcher and the like.
Welsh mines were not economical because the militant trade unions undermined productivity and profitability - same goes fo rth Kent mines where I live - not a nationalist issue - just a simple matter of economics. Blame Arthur Scargill - not the whole English nation.
Niel Kinnock 198 wrote
Finally, as for your taxes - I think you should really get your facts right here. Yes there are poor or what TB's Government have labelled "Deprived" communities in Wales but:
Steve's comment - TB is the leader of a government dominated by Scots - sure the nation elected them - but it wouldn't have happened but for the voting in Scotland and Wales
Niel Kinnock 198 wrote
I hope you are able to take in these points while you are sunning yourself in Essex, rolling in all your hard-inherited cash with your chaved up girlfriends.
Steve's Comment
Now we see your true colours mate! Essex - wrong - Kent. Chav's - no burberry in my house and not a single baseball cap in sight. Girlfriends - been around a bit too long for that my friend - happily married for 26 years. I am afraid you just sound like a bitter and spoilt child in that last comment.
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Let's just hope that we witness a great sporting spectacle and that whichever team wins will be worthy of their victory. IT'S A GAME.
Some of these blogs are some racist or personal that they are utterly irrelevant to the subject of rugby
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Owain Glendwyr
With regard to tax advantages for the nation of Wales, how is it that people in Wales are exempt prescription charges with effect from 01 April?
Presumably the bill will be picked up by the south-east of England which generates 40% of all Britains wealth.
And the Welsh will fall for the Labour vote winning freebie yet again - come on guys - have more self respect - pay your way!!!!!
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England women will win a Grand slam-again.
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post 217
So now the English have no culture??????
compared to..................????????
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English arrogance? As a league fan I would be imclined to agree with that comment with my views on union, but gotta say guys, you're all arrogant. At uni in Scotland, with the ra ras parading around saying England will win it this time hands down, the irish saying they're the best team in the world (apparently they're gonna 'crucify' the all blacks....try the reverse), the welsh thinking they'll win the grand slam and the scots predicting a hammering over the english and italians. And to every single one of the home nations I predicted two italian wins...oh. and I was right. Try and show some reapect, I did, and my predictions for Italy were correct!!!! Think France may take it this year again too.
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I Love Raf 243's comment. lets go back 112 games so the stats dont look too bad for Wales.
In the bogs timescale we have had 5 WorldCups. Wales have had 3 appearances in the Quarter finals or beyond 1x to the semi final. England have been in the final twice, a semi and 2 quarters and during the relevant time period have lost to Wales 4 times by a totalof 7 points.
"All our yesTerdays"
Wont amount to much tomorrow, its game on and it will be a cracker, but its not the real thing,its just the 6 Nations.
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Response to Rhian Allyson post #236.
Look at my post again, it was all there with a wink and a smile. And here is another one hoping for a cracking game today :-)
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From all welsh security men working in iraq Pob lwc heddiw hogia
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The Ö÷²¥´óÐã blogs have been great this 6 Nations, so thanks to all concerned. Pity some posters don't understand the difference between a blog and a news article, and criticise the blogger for being biased. I find it quite amusing that these same people are happy to parade their ignorance to the world by posting ;-)
I can understand the point Sean's trying to make in this blog. All Welshmen lament the fact that Wales have only managed to beat England 7 times in the last 20 years. Just as the many English supporters who I remember meeting in the pubs around Cardiff on match days in the mid 80s, would lament the fact that England had only managed to beat Wales 4 times in the 20 years prior to that.
I'm expecting a good contest today, with both sides having plenty to prove.
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In a word NO, too many indian's and a complete lack of chief's I'm sorry but even the Titanic had a Captain (a competent one at that) and if history is correct Captain Smith was told to push that disaster by his superiors
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Okay -
Let's put things into perspective
1) In England we don't take sport seriously; except cheese rolling and bog snokelling
2) Rugby is only played in public schools (private)
So what if Wales win; It will be a victory over English private school boys who don't really take sport seriously and just aren't good enough to roll cheese.
I suppose the question you fear to anwser what if you don't win. Cause a major disater and blame the English - because after reading all these post your are World Champs
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aslong as wales beat england and ireland win the six nations
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I'm afraid at times I thoroughly detest and abhore the English with the darkest bile possible. But I have English friends.... If your English reading this you will not understand such hatred, unless you have lived in Wales and can experience the ill founded predjudice - against us Welsh by your 'lot'.
I have never met any English person in my 40 years who has ever said anything positive or constructive about Welsh culture - I can never understand why. Culture in Wales is rich, there is a tradition of poetry music in the real sense. The English bias in the press is nausiating in the extreme, anything Welsh is ignored or discredited (Welsh Longbow for example, Ivor Novello, Bertrand Russel's Welsh roots played down the list is endless.
So the game today is a clash of cultures, the pompous English and their absurd notions or hierarchy and monarchy against an egalatarian passionate people who reject English domination. Think of the English - like the Borg - they wish to assimulate, we piss over them.
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This game today is gonna be an absolute cracker
ardiff is gonna be a mad day out and as long as no arsey English git wrecks the day we should be fine!!
Think Welsh Backline needs to be solid and the front row needs to win its fair share of ball more than it has been.
As for the WAles Victories, it has nothing to do with just wanting to beat England but the way ENgland fans are after the result it is important to win so we can rub it into them more than they do us!!
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Joe Davies (post 16)....... apologies for late comment to this post but did i read your comments correctly ? Italy and Wales contesting a WORLD CUP FINAL ???? surely if Italy make it to the final they deserve a team to play against who would make it a bit more of a contest than Wales could ever supply ? ;-))))))))
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All this stuff about the media going on about England. Well you could always switch over to Ö÷²¥´óÐã Wales/Ireland/Scotland, I would like to switch to Ö÷²¥´óÐã England - only we don't have one. And before anyone comments on the current Ö÷²¥´óÐã, that is awash with the Welsh/Irish and Scots so don't go there.
Mind you we could always get sparked up with our national anthem before the game - but we don't have one of those either. I would write to our English assembly - but we don't have one of those. No wonder people hate us English.
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All this talk about WALES.
WHAT is or are Wales exactly?
WHERE is it?
Is it a state of mind?
A scalp condition perhaps?
And what of all these slag heaps? I thought a slag heap was a pub in Essex.
I think someone should come clean and tell us.
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Blah blah blah - Beating England is fun - granted,if the English dont know why - reasons like how you cant seem to figure why out is a part of it. I'm Irish(munster) and we only like beating SH teams - Oz/NZ. I cheered England at the WC 2003 final and i'll cheer them again when they play SH teams again. When England are poor, 6 nations is poor - we need a good english team - beating them recently (asides the Croker element) meant little. We wanted to beat a good English team - to prepare for the world cup. We'll choke come tis WC again. I feel England will do okay in the WC (semis).
As for scotland - sorry guys, lucky win? we were in 4th gear...
Italy - Great rugby(albeit some lucky tries)Well done the Azzuri
France - I always believe they'll come good, not so sure. Skrela the answer? Time will tell.
Finally Wales -
I used to love the Welsh -Gibbs, bateman - not theses nancy boys - henson, parker, mjones. I'm sorry but shane williams cant bloody defend. My da did and does tell me about the great welsh teams but today aside from a jones, peel (suberb),a younger g thomas and now maybe hook... wales are weak. As for the mad ref decision against Italy, stop complaining, as my two welsh mates said "we deserved to be beaten"
South Africa with B James at 10 to win WC!!!
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The only reason England are world champions in my opinion is that even though many on here claim that england beat all sides in the last world cup. They didn't beat one specfically , largely because they never met them in the fixtures. That is the All blacks , every time they have met them in a world cup they have lost , So I believe the world cup win was a muted one since they never actually beat the best in the world at that time , but turned the game into a penatly/drop goal competition from which the game has recovered ( thank god). Wales forever
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a question to all the english all over the world
why do you think that top teams in any international sport would rather beat england than any other team? ever?
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It's the same old story as usual. The Welsh, with their huge chip on their shoulders, spend all their time and energy whinging on about the good old days and only worrying about beating England. You need to get over this boyos or you will forever be wooden spoon candidates (and you will NEVER win a World Cup). The secret to success, as England have found (we are the reigning World Champions after all) is to focus on beating everyone, not just one team. If the Welsh could get this petty inferiority complex out of their systems and get behind their team whenever they play I'm sure they would win more games. It's a very sad fact, but you really do need to move on. There's more to life than beating England - please get over yourselves....this is all a bit tedious.
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265 Stuart.
I think you'll find they beat the team that beat the All Blacks!
By the way, how many tries did Australia score in the final? Yet another bit of Anglophobia built on a myth.
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Posts 247, 248 & 249 (although I think you confused me with 'Owain Glyndwr' on the latter post) Steve
Your comments on 247 (in which you have selectively quoted me - can I assume that the points you didn't quote you accept whole heartedly?), are so audaciously ignorant they are laughable.
Now let me educate you:
1.) Your first point about the Labour Government was precisely the one I was making in response to your earlier comment that Labour is all pro-Welsh, i.e. illustrating that it is clearly not. As soon as the rest of my compatriots realise this (they are starting - re Blaenau Gwent) the better! I see from previous posts that you like to deal in FACTs - so please feel free to research the composition of the Labour Government at the time and post these hard facts on here too. I think you'll find you will be proved sadly wrong.
2.) Your 2nd point still relating to Aberfan, asked how it was the English shafting the Welsh. Quite simple, Steve: English mine owner, not giving two hoots about costly health & safety considerations and actually ignoring the warnings of the slag heaps being built on a mountain spring - as Welsh life was obviously considered to be cheap!
3.) Miners strike a national issue - Fair point which I accept. If we are to play a numbers game here though Steve, I think you'll find that it's impact on communities in Wales and N.England was significantly greater than in Kent.
4.) Your comment that TB's government is dominated by Scots is quite absurd and also Peter Snow's map of Great Britain had plenty of patches of red all over England. Although, probably not in Kent as from your comments, greed/avarice obviously clouds any rational reasoning to the point where its all about "Which party will make me richer than I already am?"
5.) RE: my perceived bitterness and spoilt child attributes... My comments were meant to be ironic, - as you displayed so many bigotted misconceptions about the stereotypical Welsh, it was my attempt to make you realise what it's like on the other end of ignorance. As you seem to have missed the point yet again, I don't know why I bothered.
Post 248
1.) You refer to racist and personal comments on postings - I think if you read back your last ten postings you will find some prime examples! It's lucky we take it all in good humour in Wales!
2.) It's nothing to do with rugby. Why bang on about it then Stevie? Of course it is, or this blog wouldn't have attracted so many postings.
Post 249
1.) Your question about prescription charges being free. This is because we have devolved powers in Wales. We can make our own micro laws to suit our own needs. It's nothing about being subsidised by English. Your government could do the same but they choose to spend it on something else instead, e.g. Olympic Games.
2.) SE England creating 40% of the wealth. Bully for you. But when the sea comes to reclaim the land in 40 years due to the global warming you have contributed to, I think we may well see a change in that balance. Will you be coming cap in hand to the mountain people then? I think so.
Finally, I do agree with you on one point; let's have great game of rugby today!
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Lets get back to todays game and the merits of the 15 guys on each side. I think a big point that everyone seems to have missed in all these bloggs is how Mark Cueto will do at full back. The England camp have kept really quiet about it, as I feel they are worried about this position. I bet Stephen Jones is gutted he can't play now as I think he would be better equiped to test Cueto with his kicks than Hook. Also I bet he would rather have Gareth Thomas inside him just now with his confidence so low. What do you think?
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One thing you learn being Welsh is that the regard the English have in you wanting to beat them is very different from their own view of them wanting to beat you! Tell an Englishman that you hope Wales will beat them at any sport and he will look you in the eye and call you a jingoistic troll, or more usually make a racially stereotypical comment involving sheep. If you similarly challenge the same person on his desire to see England beat Wales then he will tell you that its quite normal for the English to want to beat the Welsh, will look you in the eye and call you a jingoistic troll, or more usually make a racially stereotypical comment involving sheep! The English want it both ways!
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Wales has become crap since mike ruddock left! WE NEED HIM BACK!!!
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Having lived in Wales for most of my formative years, I always thought of myself as Welsh, especially when I went to live in England. However having moved to Llanelli 13 years ago, I can honestly say I've never been made to feel more English. It's not just the rubgy which inspires the bigotted, xenophobic crap which is a daily occurance. I don't know why the Welsh feel so inferior, I don't feel superior to them.
What really winds me up is the 'any enemy of the English is a friend of mine' attitude. So sad!!
I hope England win today, I'm not sure they will, but what I would like most of all is a great game of rubgy.
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Well if you look at Taite v Henson now, who came better off? Answer, Taite he is one hell of a player now. Oh yes and Taite does tackle, ie not shoulder charge. I think Taite has a lot to thank Henson for. However, I am not sure Henson would feel the same.
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GE
Great comment.
Thanks for your one off last week England, but it has to be said "Come on Ireland, come on scotland, come on wales"
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For GR - post #272.
I never used to matey, whenever the SH teams came on their tours I always cheered on the Welsh/Scots or Irish. But since the "Anyone but the English" mentality came to the fore then I am afraid my attitude has changed somewhat.
And for what it is worth we English do have our share of morons, as do most other nations.
p.s. On paper England should win, unfortunately we are playing on grass ;-)
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Hey i am at Swansea Uni and heading down to JCs to watch the match later!
I have an english friend who knows nothing about rugby but enjoys laughing in all our welsh faces when she hears england have won a game.
evil.
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As an England fan with a Welsh grandfather, I think I understand the strength of ill feeling that our celtic cousins feel for us English.
However, what annoys them more than anything is that we really couldn't give a stuff about the Welsh. They do occasionally beat us by the odd point, but normally we stuff them by fifteen- twenty points nowadays. From now on the big games in the northern hemisphere are Ireland and France, whilst the other games are just sideshows really.
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My Comments after reading eveyones is :-
(1) Rugby is not just played at public schools and university,whoever said that is living in the past.
(2)I enjoy it when Wales beat England as a lad,before the 70's England always seemed to win,the glorious 70's where a joy then it has been a rollacoaster.
(3)I have always been ribbed about supporting Wales whilst living in England but by colours are pinned to the mast since childhood and I see no reason to change.
(4)The Media always has a bias towards England be it Rugby,Football,golf,cricket,swimming,underwater hockey,needlework and the rest.Even the news is biased towards London-nowhere else exists in the mind of the press.
(5)Even if Wales lose,which I hope does not happen,I think some good will come of it.We have had bad results since Ruddock left and the WRU should look at them selves to sort it out.The whole set up has to be like Ireland.
(6)The players seem to have lost confidence ,they go through the motions but withour passion/enjoyment.It has been lost since 2005.
GOOD LUCK CYMRU,enjoy it and win.
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Should humour - however gentle and well-intended - be removed from sporting discussions? Discuss.
To answer the above question, I would like to refer to a few of the posts above in response to a blog on the Ö÷²¥´óÐã website on the day that Wales played England in Cardiff.
In so doing, I am sure that there is one conclusion we can all reach: For some, it already has been.
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As an Englishman, I'm quite appalled by the ignorant and hateful tone of many of the comments on this blog - they are completely unlike the Anglo-Welsh banter that you can find on actual rugby forums, where people treat each other with respect and humour, and post knowledgeably about the game.
I sincerely hope all the bile-filled comments on here are not representative of the view of real rugby fans. Personally I judge people by what they're like, not where they come from. Earlier in the week, I had a great evening in the pub discussing today's game with a Welsh colleague - unfortunately I can't remember a word we said, but I know it was enjoyable! It is possible to view your opponents with respect and courtesy, and is one of the things rugby prides itself on.
I'm hoping for a great game of rugby today, and I'm looking forward to discussing it with Welsh fans afterwards, win or lose. Bring it on!
Incidentally, I thought there was nothing wrong at all with the original article on this blog. It was well-written, entertaining and funny - particularly calling Mike Hall's try "perhaps the greatest try in Welsh rugby history". Younger contributors on here (and I suspect there are rather a lot of them going by the level of discussion) may not be aware of the irony in that statement!
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Just to play devil's advocate for a moment. When Prince Charles finally becomes King and presumably Prince William becomes Prince of Wales, who would the rugby following young Prince be expected to support?!
Just a thought....
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For all our sakes..
Let the welsh win so the Irish can have a good Paddy's Day!
Come on Scotland as well..we all have to do our part to deny the arrogant French from yet another unconvincing Championship victory.
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266-stuart
I seem to recall england beating the ab's in new zealand. Now if that wasn't a feat....well
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I don't take Wales at all seriously in rugby at the moment. There was a time when Italy were considered a stupid inclusion in the tournament but if 5 teams had to be picked on merit where would Wales be?
Further to that how can anyone take seriously a team with a centre that shaves his legs, slaps on the moisturiser just so he can 'look good for the lads'.
There'll be a welcome in the hillsides....Yeah! Wearing Village People outfits probably!!!
Eng 35 Wales 10
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you , sir , are not a cave dweller. And you are certainly not an expert on rugby. When ever I want a good laugh , I read one of your articles .
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Wow, what a lot of junk spouted on this thread.
No surprise really. The blue touch paper was lit by a clumsy opening post.
'As long as we beat the English'? Sean Davies. Lend me your brain. I'm building an idiot.
Posting 30 (cheeky beers and all!) is what I would call an intelligent, articulate and passionate perspective. Welsh rugby will only move forward with this approach imo.
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You really must be grasping at straws if the sum total of your memories for four victories in 19 years is an aggregate difference of 7 points. What is the total points difference in the games where you didn't fare so well and choose to erase the games from memory ??
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it makes me laugh to read the headline "As long as we beat the English"
Whenever do wales beat the English at anything?? one man and his dog maybe. I'm English , i work in a factory full of Welsh, when England win nothing is mentioned but if Wales were to cause an upset the lads would jump around like they won the world cup or something. quite funny really but then quite sad when you stop to think about it.
To the welsh, thank you in advance for the run out later on this afternoon, we can always count on our little relation for a good warm up.
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Why are the Ö÷²¥´óÐã using all Irish predominantly and understandably biased commentators? There are 50 million English who want Italy to win. Most of the Irish team are as foreign as the Italians.
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whatever it is, i wish the red dragon team all the best for today's match ;)
whatever it is, i hope wales could beat england ;D
go wales go! ;p
- from one of the die hard fans of wales rugby team -
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If the English celebrate their wins it's typical English arrogance. When the celtic nations do it, it's hand on the heart patriotism.
I really believe it does the celtic nations no good at all, and even gives the English this sense of superiority when everyone gets so annoyed at English fans. For the English it's great.
I am half Welsh half English married to a Jock, brought up on Max Boyce and my rugby years in England.
When England win I'll be cheering, when Wales win I still get a tingle down my spine. I love to see the Ireland forwards pounding in to opposition, and nothing makes me happier than a sloppy Scottish kick charged down and planted over the try line by an Italian :-) Sorry, the bitterness of my Scottish inlaws still gives me some enjoyment, and I don't feel guilty for that.
The celtic nations have far more national pride than us, but still keep themselves down by not being able to get over the bitterness towards England. When the bitterness stops you'll really know for sure that you'll have a chance of overtaking England for more than the odd game here and there, and I know I'll be big enough to applaud as I cry in to my pint.........unless it's Scotland :-).
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Excuse me post number three, heartily agree with all that you say, am also called David. If you were born in Wrexham then I will start to fear you.
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Look we have to be logical about this. The english have been awfully useful in assisting the Celtic Nations in winning the odd couple of world wars and have been generous in allowing us to play cricket for the MCC on occasions against the colonials - although with remarkably little success in recent years. But there really is only one purpose in life for us Celts: beat the english at Rugby, Soccer, Curling, Shinty, Underwater basket-weaving or in fact anything!
And to be fair, the english put up with us!
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Wales are now a rugby minnow, and I cant see that changing in the future. As a country it is just too small to compete on the international stage, you could probably muster a team of players born in the Greater London area that would have as much talent. The popularity of rugby is on the rise in England and the number of youngsters who traditionally wouldn't try the game is increasing, hopefully this will lead to a prolonged era of English dominance over the smaller nations in the Northern Hemisphere (Wales and Scotland). The Welsh were immensely fortunate in beating England on their way to a Grand Slam in 2005, although I will give the Welsh credit for taking thier opportunities throughout that tournament. However I think Welsh rugby fans should perhaps buy the DVD of the 2005 Six Nations and treasure it as I'd be surprised if that win is repeated any time soon!
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Get a life . Beeting England in itself means nothing anymore, there are much better teams out there. Wales need to get fit, start looking fit(curly perms and beer bellies belong with those memories of the 70.s)and show they are fit. We have looked like a team that deserves the results we have achieved. To be good enough to get results we need to compete and perform in all matches not just in some overhyped end of tornement meaningless match>We will finish bottom. That is not good enough.
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Get a life . Beating England in itself means nothing anymore, there are much better teams out there. Wales need to get fit, start looking fit(curly perms and beer bellies belong with those memories of the 70.s)and show they are fit. We have looked like a team that deserves the results we have achieved. To be good enough to get results we need to compete and perform in all matches not just in some overhyped end of tornement meaningless match>We will finish bottom. That is not good enough.
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Fair enough - it hasn't been the best tournament, but of course you want to win any match. (Especially against England, though...) Whatever else, the Welsh fans are still the best in the world - would you rather be listening to the titter-tatter and moaning at Twickenham or the proud singing of the crowd in the Millennium Stadum (not including the guy with the hat and the flag and the suit at Twickers, though, he is quite keen!)? Precisely because they always support the team through thick and thin (and seem to make up the bulk of B&I.Lions fans despite presumably inferior pay packets) this makes them so. Less hate, the Welsh love their rugby. xx
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I'm a Welshman (and proud of it too), and I hope that Wales beat England today.
Not because I'm anti-English (well - maybe an eensy-weensy bit), but because my big fat chum is English and we have a pint of beer wagered on the outcome (and last year he got several beers as we wagered on tries instead).
You see - I have my priorities right (now where is my wallet again!?)
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I'm an ex-pat Welshman living in Barbados... I will be going to Surfside to watch the game with my mates who are all English. If Wales win, they'll get some ribbing off me and if England win, I'll get the same off them. It happens every year and - guess what? - we're still all mates. I love living here.
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I watched bits of a film last night called the animal or something like that. What struck me about it was this coloured chap, an African American who was paranoid about why people were being nice to him and was convinced it was only because he was "black" (his words). And this he insisted was just another form of racism. Returning to the point, isn't this post all about some form or anoter of xenophobic racism? I for one am sick and tired of it, Wales isn't my enemy, neither old nor new, neither is Ireland (Ifrom whence my father hails) nor indeed the "auld enemy" Scotland - it's all a load of hype in the media and generated by the RFU (in this instance) to put bums on seats in stadia and to generate revenue from advertising! They must think we're stupid and that we all swallow it! There are more Welsh and Irish people living in England (never mind the USA, Oz etc....) than there are in Wales and Ireland - let's have a little respect from you people please, especially the Ö÷²¥´óÐã an it's employees, be they Davies, Davis, Edwards, Griffiths, Jones or whatever, it's the British Broadcasting Corporation after all
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I think the main reason everybody wants to beat England has less to with historical issues and more to do with English media hype. I feel sorry for Brian Ashton - he does the textbook thing of bigging up the opposition so as not to motivate them and then the "B"BC fills the studio, commentary box, and pitchside with one-eyed ex-internationals who cheer when England score, and perform analysis of the match from an entirely English perspective apart from the obligatory "take nothing away from...(insert opposition name)...but England...". Today, after an unexpected win against a universally accepted bafflingly subdued French side last week, the Ö÷²¥´óÐã are bigging up the English youngsters who "are the future of World Rugby". If that doesn't want the oppsition to wipe the smirk off Inverdale's/Guscott's/Moore's/Healey's etcetc faces I don't know what does.
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Well. well. Let me just give my opinion on why the celtic teams like to beat England so much. The english media is arrogant in victory, and truculent in defeat. This attitude is reflected somewhat by english supporters. Basically, if you could learn to be modest winners, and gracious losers you might find peoples attitudes change. Until then, I hope you get stuffed at rugby, football, cricket etc. etc.
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i suppose the problem with wanting to win so much is that the low you will feel after the game.
i wish wales were more competitive but you need to win an easy game before you can attempt to beat a half decent team.
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Post 303 ALRC
Ah, some tired old cliches. First refuge of the tired old bigot.
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You can sing Hymns and Arias very well but Wales need to play rugby better than they are doing. You can talk the talk, can you walk the walk. Good luck boyos....you will need it....come on England!
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hobbit 220 it's ireland not northern ireland! in rugby anyway!
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Post 303 - ALCR - don't know who you support but you're an awfully sad person - please give an example of this lack of modesty of English supporters. Why should one be a good loser! Losing isn't good - in anything.
Post 298 - Remember when England silenced the Cardiff crowd at the Millennium Stadium? Not that long ago eh!
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I grew up watching the English teams in the 1960s and 1970s regularly lose to Wales and my disappointment at losing was always tempered by the joy of watching the glorious rugby played by Gareth Edwards, JPR Williams, Barry John, Phil Bennett, Derek Quinnell etc etc. and at the same time knowing they would be available for the real battles playing for the British Lions against the Springboks and the All Backs ( the Wallabies were not important in those days).
The comments posted in this Blog reveal disturbibg attitudes originally promoted by the Celtic teams in particular but now taken up by England,as well, that gives succour to the opponents of Britain and undermines what should be the true national attitude of producing great British teams.
In Australia for instance there is great sporting rivalry between NSW and Queensland but it disappears when they put on the green and gold for Australa.The lack of this attitude in Britain is indicative of an obsessive clinging on to historic wrongs rather than creating a strong nation and therefore national sporting teams for the future.
For me, whoever wins between England and Wales is still a victory for Britain.
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why is it the welsh always go on about how good they are mr davis the comentator is so one sided it makes me laugh just to hear the rubbish that comes out of his mouth one day the welsh will realise that its more luck that they win the 6 nations than anything else like normal they win it then the team is rubbish. At least with the irish and english and even( god i'm goign to say this )the french can produce a team that is consistant for a few years wales wake up and amit the other teams are just better than you.
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all the banter above! previous victories or not, points don't matter, it's the victory that counts whether welsh or english!
let's see whose got the balls this year!
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Cry More
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all i can say is come on England, although my welsh neighbours do not think the same lol
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To put the case for a rebuttal .....
As a child, I was brought up in a rugby club environment in the mid 70's, where the considerable Welsh contingnet in the club (Basildon) would not only loudly proclaim the greatness of their team, but would also take even more pleasure in England's ineptitude. This was not helped by having Welsh PE teachers and form tutor at senior school. I developed an intense dislike not for Welsh people, who are as decent and down-to-earth-good-solid-working-class people you could ever meet, but for the Welsh rugby team. I wanted them to lose every single game they play just to shut them up - and still do to this day! It's why the unfairness of England's 9-8 win in 1980 is still my favourite game - because it rankles with Wales so, so much!
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To any Welshman, Wales beating England in the 5/6 nations has always the goal.
In reality it's just banter and trash talk, but having lived in Canada for the past 20 years. The only game I want to see Wales win is against the Anglo Saxon hoard. When Wales lose to any other country, Canada included, there is always a friendly handshake,a tough luck mate and a pint. But for some reason the English always have their 10 minutes of rubbing it in with salt, arrogance and a smug Chestershire cat grin. Probally never forgotton about the beer bottle that once held bitter ale.
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Even from deepest Spain I can sense the venom. Just savour the porridge you can stir with your wooden spoon. We´ve got to beat you every year until 2030 to get parity on played & won.
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Good on you mate, I agree every one just wants to beat the English because of thier arrogance and smug attitude.
When you I work abroad I say i'm Welsh, what a different attitude I get from our European friends !
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What is Eddie Butler on ?
A Welshman my backside.
He just loves the english eh !
Get him off the box now
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Let me be the first to say congratulations to Wales - a good game for you guys. Respect to your team!
Now can we all be nice to one another again .... It's not that hard really.
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I've never seen a team so happy to be joint bottom of the RBS six nations....when Wales wake up tomorrow in the cold light of day they'll realise they actually lost 5 out of 6 matches with the only consolation of a home win over England...not exactly the impact I think they wanted to make this year...England will come back stronger from this and we'll whoop Wales at twicks next year (and probably again at the world cup...enjoy the scraps Wales.
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james hook is amazing
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ive just heard an almighty crash outside my house on checking ive found everything is ok its just the whole of england crashing back to earth....to all of those english fans who had a go last week.....your only as good as your last game and that means we are better than you!!!
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This is a great week end
Italys ended up with a last minute try closing a good tournament (they are improving year after year)
French for the second time beat Ireland on teh last second, thankd to a vermulen try
and the must is the English again defeated.
French last week lost the game rather than sayinhg England won it.
Their team was out of spririt and far from what they used to be
Today even if France had lost against our Scottish friend or loose the tournament to Ireland, only the Welsh victory would have make me teh happiest men !!
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Just wanted to say congratulations Wales! You really made my day!
Oh and congratulations to all the people on here who were so negative and rude about Wales - you made my day too :p
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as I stated last week "Wales the IRB 2007 World Cup Winners" you read it here first viewers. Keep the faith boyos!
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I can't understand anyone making a big deal of beating England,whether it's on the rugby field,soccer field,cricket field, any frigging field ....even their cows and sheep are inedible.....must be the fields?
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Hmm. Heartbroken.
Dads Welsh, mums English, I was born in England and wear a white shirt with pride.
Halfway through the first half I was told to stop cherering on England if I wanted to stay healthy. Over the next twenty minutes or so my girlfrined (a football fan)on her first ever rugby experience, was then spat on twice and had a load of drink cans thrown at her, the language accompanying this was not for a bbc website.
To be fair there were lots of local welsh apologising and trying to stop their countrymen.
Left the stadium early with a couple of Welsh mates promising 'its just because we get so passionate on a day like this'.
Puts the rivalry in perspective. Like my parents used to say, no-one is anygry just disappointed. Ok maybe i am a bit angry.
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It funny how Wales seem to use the England game as a way of covering up how they have drastically under performed this season. Look at the table and it says it all.
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Heh Heh!!, All is now right with the World.
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Re 289 Jamie
"when do the Welsh ever beat England at anything?"
TODAY, thank you for the "runout"!
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well done wales!from an englishman.....it has been a long week for me as i dont agree with the english selection at present and only hope that brian ashdon has used the six nations to blood players to see how they can perform in certain positions and if they can handle the pressure at the top level?well the answer is no they cant,so thanks wales for sorting this out for me as i have no idea why france played so badly last week!with the world cup in mind we need experience that know how to handle the pressure and still perform that means,dalligio,kay,wilkinson,tindall,catt,grewcock,hill,vickery,robinson, white,build your team round these players and you have at least a chance,they will be motivated for the world cup and have the desire to succeed once again,but most of all they know what it takes and for that there is absolutely no substitute for experience!!!
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I'm fed up of the double standards and dishonesty of some of the Celtic 'supporters'. They take such delight in hatred but don't like it if English love their country. Generally based on myths built up on false history, all too often backed up by institutions that should know better. Such people are scum and should be recognised as such no matter what country they come from or loyalty they claim. It’s no different from any other group anywhere that preach hatred. We have the old problem that some people seem to think they do their country a favour rather than a dis-service by shielding such twisted bigots.
Its one thing to have some light hearted banter but often there is nothing but pure venom. I notice from a quick skim through the mails here that the guilty often try and excuse their behaviour by claiming a mythical English arrogance. [Which seems, on what little evidence for it to be based on the fact the English rarely hate like too many of their neighbours].
I expect some people will claim I'm just a bad loser. As usual their wrong, as that's been my view for years. Admit to being incandescent about the result and even that I could be bias on that. :) [If I had met the ref immediately after the game someone could have ended up in hospital. Its a famous English tradition that we detest cheats! Or he could just be a contender for the most incompetent official in the history of the tournament. Those are the two top options suggested by Occam’s Razor.] However that a matter of frustration and rage rather than bitterness or hatred towards the Welsh. I'll even admit they probably would have won with a balanced performance from him. [Or that on performance on the day, one of the Welsh players may have been bribed to throw the game. :)]
Steve
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Re Steve Ragg 320
"5 out of 6 matches" have I missed a game somewhere? Try to at least sound as if you know what you are talking about!
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It must be very hard being Welsh or Irish if the limit of your rugby world is beating England. Perhaps if both nations took a peak outside the garden fence and raised their horizons they might realise that the three southern hemisphere nations provide the real benchmark in world rugby. The fact is clear: if both the Welsh and the Irish played as they have done against the English this year they would give Wallabies etal a good game. But I fear the limit of their ambition is to beat the English and it doesn't matter what happens in the other games.
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Blog 314
What rankles about that 1980 game was not the three English kicks to two Welsh tries tries "victory" or even Paul Ringer´s almost preordained dismissal. It was the spineless WRU´s craven acceptance that Welsh rugby was plagued by a "culture of violence" which had to be stamped out. From there on in, Welsh rugby declined, helped on it´s way by Mrs Thatcher decimating the SW coal and steel industries and the RU getting rid of Wales´s greatest ally, the English rugby selectors.
What rankles still is to visit those parts of SE Wales that are being overrun by English in-migration and seeing signs like "Woody Grove, formerly Coed yr Allt" at the entrance to middle class building developments. They annexed our country in the 12th Century and they are still at it. And they expect us to love them.
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To 320 Steve Ragg: We actually lost 4 out of 5 because you dont play yourselves in the '6' nations. We are very happy with the win, not because we beat England, but because the players finally got their confidence back and played to their abilities. You guys did the same to France last week, but the gods were on our side this time around, personally id rather that we had beaten France or Ireland seeing as they are the actual northern hemisphere hopefuls for the World Cup....Nevermind Well done lads!
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Unfortunately, another poor display by England, sooo many errors, mind you, just goes to show how poor Wales are.
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In 1 way delighted to see Wales beat England, but Wales should have won by 20pts or more, to reflect the dominance Wales had in the game, which was the most one sided contest in Wales favour for a long time, of ocurse Enlgand have given us many stuffings.
If I was being cruel I could say Wales are still yet to have beat a decent team at rugby under Gareth Jenkins, but that is being churlish.
Looking forward to the world cup, it shows the importance of having a experienced number 10 playing for Enlgand if Wilko or even Hodgson was fit,it would make a big differece.
Wales played far better today, and if they can play like that again in the World Cup, we could quite well, and the quarters seems the mimimum achievement.
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Well, the Welsh beat the English! Well done! What a smashing day's rugby! Spoiled only by the commentary team of Moore and Butler! For God's sake can't the BeeB now just put these guys out to pasture? They are both as biassed and pompous as each other. All I wanted was intelligent comment, All I got was bickering.
Come on Bill! Where are you hiding?
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Get it right up you arrogant beano's i don't see too many comments about superiority now. It's worth watching just how quick the bbc can finish the program when their glorious lovely boys get humped again, let's hear it for eddie butler, brian moore,jeremy guscott and john inversnail!!! how about more of those slow motion shots and magazine photos for the tough rugger boys with the white shirts.
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Few things (from a Welshman living in England).
1. Beating England in the last match of the Six Nations DOES make it a good Six Nations.
2. For those English fans who think it's sad for the Welsh/Scots/Irish to enjoy beating England SO much, why don't you take a minute to think why it means so much to us. (Hint - it says more about you than us - just think how you feel at beating Australia when they are at their most arrogant!)
3. Sean, you really missed out in 1993, JC's followed by Mumbles that year was special. I know as, someone once said, I was there!
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To Steve Ragg. Where on earth is 'Twicks'!?
In the cold light of day as you put it; Wales were woeful against Scotland true, played really well against Ireland and France but didn't get the result and were, at best average in Rome. BUT, and it's a big but - we beat the English which always makes any true blooded Welshman happy. We have a team that have been nearly there for the whole of the six nations campaign (except against Scotland); firing on 6 or 7 of our 8 cylinders. In the first 20 minutes today, you saw us firing on all cylinders, with the turbo charger on full and England's answer? Total and utter bemusement... We are progressing towards the world cup quite nicely thank-you. England is a mish-mash of a team who rely on old codgers to hold them together.
By the way, bad luck for the Irish lads and happy St Patrick's Day to you all.
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In reply to 329:
What? By beating them thoroughly?
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to be completely honest, at the moment -
Welsh rugby = poor
English rugby = poor
So i will forget international rugby for the moment and go back to supporting my club side. .
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Well I've heard it all now, Wales call on Peter Pan characters to beat the English. Man-of-the-match (Captain?)James Hook.
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Having one rival that we particularly want to beat is the reason we will never be world champions? Lol, get real, it has nothing to do with that.
We have had a rubbish season this year (and last) where we just haven't clicked as a team and become the team we were 2 years ago. It has nothing to do with wanting to beat the English.
I think its commonly believed that the welsh just want to beat the english and do nothing else. we don't. we love any and every win we can get, but if its over the english its just that extra bit sweet! so if we can beat just one team, we'd probably choose england.
Go back to 2005, we were unstoppable, if the all blacks were in the tournament we'd probably have beaten them or at least given them a run for their money. but did our mentality of "as long as we beat the english" change that year? no. so before you go saying that the reason we'll never be world champions is because we just want to beat the english, think, that kind of mentality has nothing to do with how we play!
Anyways, good match today, really enjoyed watching it and cant wait for the world cup and next year. hopefully we'll do better then a 16% success rate!
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There have been some really naff comments from England supporters in this blog. Shame on you your bunch of losers.
I am so happy after the match where at last the Welsh side performed close to its true ability. This has been been the most frustrating 6 nations for the Welsh in living memory where we could have won or underperformed in all the matches of the tournament. I was dreading the match tosay but int he cold light of day we were always in control! Well done lads!!!!!!!!!!!1
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It's hardly surprising that Wales vs England is a grudge match because they are the two countries that have historically dominated the tournament and found each other the team to beat (I think at present count Wales have 51 wins, England 52).
And yes, you have to add in the animosity - and if you're Welsh you have felt anti-Welsh prejudice in small things like teasing about the accent, or big things like denying that you have your own separate history and culture to England.
On top of that, rugby is the game of the English middle class, of their public schools; but of the Welsh working class. It's where the poor Welsh historically met their 'betters' on the pitch, and had a chance to thrash them.
But in all of that at pre and post games, whoever has won or lost, the atmosphere has always been well-done, good game etc. - and there's nothing the Welsh crowd at Cardiff appreciate more than good rugby. You see a great try against Wales in Cardiff and all around you'll hear 'Fair play, it was a good try' - so don't get too steamed. It was an exciting game today, and I'm thrilled that Wales won, but I'm happiest about the fact that it was exciting rugby, and that's the point.
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It's all just fantastic banter. It's what makes the game great. What would the history of our game be without rivalries like these?
It's a compliment to the English. When I hear Englishmen saying they rate a win against the Scots or the French over a win against the Welsh I feel rather jealous.
For those who say this is anti- English bile or immature tribalism, I would say you need to mature slightly and enjoy intelligent sporting rivalry for what it is. It's not as if we're beating each other over the head about it....
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Well done Wales! Unfortunately condemning us (Scotland) to the wooden spoon but still always good to see the underdog win.
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Well I have read many comments. I have to say that when Wales beat England it changes the mood of the nation. If England had won it would not of changed anything. Lets us not forget that Wales population is 2.8 million compared to 55 million in England. With just four teams to choose our players, over an area of just 70 miles. It is a victory to be able to punch at this level. We are 8th in the World and can still beat a great country like England even if they have a weak team. However not to take anything from England they did win some good games and have sound potential. We are all British here and what matters is bettering our nation. I'm in the Army and Englishmen constantly rib the Welsh, we do pack a big punch for our size, do not forget that WALES! if we had a population of just 40 million things would be different! My hope is that the term enemy is removed as I have served along side some fine Englishmen and wish people would embrace the union, we are strong together!
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Oh Dear, blogs once again full of anti English sentiment - even illiterate Canadians talking about "Chestershire" cats (whatever they are).
Let's confine these blogs to serious rugby fans (in my nearly 60 years of following rugby, they are the ones with anything worthwhile to say).
Passionate English rugby supporter, but half Welsh.
Today's result came as no surprise. Wales have threatened better rugby without carrying it through, but I always felt they would do so against England. Well done Wales. Hook must be first choice no.10
However Ireland today showed how far both England. and Wales have to go, Good forward technique (as also shown against a much heavier English pack) allowed their superbly creative backs to play.
England! oh dear. What is happening? I was dismayed at the lack of effort, responsibility, passion leadership, skill, technique (after Catt went off). Tait's half-hearted effort to follow up a kick ahead in the first half was typical of what was happening all over the field. Ex captain Robinson gave no example of leadership for the younger players. Given the intense competition at club level in England, I cannot understand the lack of basic techniques and competitiveness amongst English player, nor the lack of any kind of passion when they pull on an international jersey.
BA, I respect your thoughtful, quiet approach to coaching, but have somebody in the team to inject some passion and pride.
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To Steve Ragg 320
I think you are a bit mixed up mate, Comic Relief was last night.
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Hola Mad dog Comment 316 toma! toma ya! Hijo puta. Nice one wales!!!!!
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To all my Engligh & Welsh co-writers - bottom line is that this is the worst England team that I (as an Irishman) can remember - Wales, you beat them .... just.
Get a grip - the WC will see both of you eliminated at group stage.
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Reply to Tony 330
An absolutley awesome display by England, worthy of their world champion status, so i guess that just goes to show how good Wales were today!
Is that blog the best you can do? Wheres all this honourable in defeat I have been reading so much about?
"Sooooo" - If Tony, you are younger than 13 I forgive you, otherwise grow up.
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Gongatulations to the Welsh for a fully deserved victory however if I were a Welsh person I would be furious that my team did not play with as much passion and intent in the other 6N matches, as a Englishman I just want to see my team win regardless of who we play, if Wales could apply the same intensity to all their matches I believe they could be a world force again
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To all my Engligh & Welsh co-writers - bottom line is that this is the worst England team that I (as an Irishman) can remember - Wales, you beat them .... just.
Get a grip - the WC will see both of you eliminated at group stage.
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Oh Dear, blogs once again full of anti English sentiment - even illiterate Canadians talking about "Chestershire" cats (whatever they are).
Let's confine these blogs to serious rugby fans (in my nearly 60 years of following rugby, they are the ones with anything worthwhile to say).
Passionate English rugby supporter, but half Welsh.
Today's result came as no surprise. Wales have threatened better rugby without carrying it through, but I always felt they would do so against England. Well done Wales. Hook must be first choice no.10
However Ireland today showed how far both England. and Wales have to go, Good forward technique (as also shown against a much heavier English pack) allowed their superbly creative backs to play.
England! oh dear. What is happening? I was dismayed at the lack of effort, responsibility, passion leadership, skill, technique (after Catt went off). Tait's half-hearted effort to follow up a kick ahead in the first half was typical of what was happening all over the field. Ex captain Robinson gave no example of leadership for the younger players. Given the intense competition at club level in England, I cannot understand the lack of basic techniques and competitiveness amongst English player, nor the lack of any kind of passion when they pull on an international jersey.
BA, I respect your thoughtful, quiet approach to coaching, but have somebody in the team to inject some passion and pride.
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What an exiting game I watched it in my Canadian basement, with my arrogant English friend, who admitted Wales were a better team on the day I gave him stick, he gave me stick, bottom line we both got drunk and we are still friends, this is what rugby is about I am sure I could have a drink with all the English people who threw negative comments about Wales we all know where we stand rugby is a great game and belongs to the people. Every dog has his day and life has a natural cycle, you just have to take the wins when you can. The only thing true in this blogg is that ed butler is not Welsh and the setanta sports commentator is Tick see you in the world cup
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lol number 320 is so stupid "5 match out of 6" there is only 5 match in the six nation and wales aren't last but the scots are
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In the spirit of fair play, here's to Wales: hip, hip hourrah.
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Well deserved victory by Wales. As an England fan I feel genuinely relieved that Wales aren't ending the campaign in crisis and have once again found there passion and tempo.
As for England, bar Catt and Corry they were nothing short of a disgrace to the jersey. By all means lose games but the lack of dog and character was embarrasing to watch.
On a more technical point, am I the only one who thinks that other than the odd break, Ellis is ruining our game with his head up, slow ball game at ruck time? I didn't once hear his voice on the ref's mic, whereas Peel was constantly rallying and directing those around him.
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Why so many English at Cardiff?
Unless I misheard John "tell me Jonathan do you see Wales ever scoring a try" (Wembley 99) said there were 20-25000 English at the stadium. What is going on I can assure you Pembroke RFC did not sell one ticket to touts so what is going on. who is doing it & why (hopefully not just to pay some mercenary from the next town).
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I should think Eddie Butler, the pseudo Englishman, is sobbing into his beer tonight.
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Hey Wales, you do realise there are 4 other games to play in the six nations you know? Please see the bigger picture here. If your not sure what that is, it's the fact that you had a very poor 6 nations, as did we, however we still managed to beat the champions France. Good luck in the world cup! Your going to need it.
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why is it so important for the Welsh to beat the English? everybody wants to beat England. in an interview after the world cup -new zealand / england -match back in south africa lomu was asked what the captain said to him and he answered that fitzpatrick told him it didn't matter who they beat-so long as they beat england.
i mention this to highlight the seemingly universal urge to beat england-not because they are 'the' team to beat but because of their whole attitude (i include fans and commentators in this too). yes it would be nice to beat new zealand, australia and south africa and we, as a nation are thrilled when/ if it happens; but beating england is like slapping the cocky smile off an arrogant child.
as a welshman i'm NOT anti-English-i cheer when their football team does well and might even support them in the world cup, but even though england goes crazy during the footie world cup, the populus isn't absorbed in the self conceited smugness that takes over the coutry (rugby-wise) whenever england play rugby.
i wish we had played better during the 6n; we embarrassed ourselves against scotland and could (i really believe)have beaten ireland and france but that doesn't detract from the feeling of joy at having wiped the arrogance off the face of everyone who thinks wearing an england rugby shirt means superiority-everyone who thinks that because wilkinson is 'back' the rugby playing world should run for cover..ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? a great kicker no doubt but asside from that..nothing special. just an example of the conceit that runs through the veins of englash fans and players.
well played wales, and thank you.
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Well we did it, well done Wales.
The rest does not matter we beat the English thats what counts.
Sorry for the Irish they deserve the championship. Our fellow Celts
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Fantastic performance from the Welsh boys today however it shouldn't cover up the awful performances in the other games this season.
In regards to why the Welsh/Irish/Scots seem to hate the English so much, the majority of it is the fault of the predominantly English media
Example
2002 Winter Olympics-Curling
At the start of the tournament the media were refering to the british team as the "Scotish" curling team. They win the gold medal and its "an outstanding acheivement for British sport" i.e the english trying to claim part of the victory whereas previously they were distancing themselves.
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The Northern hemisphere rugby is terrible. Italy got 4th in the 6 Nations, ahead of Wales and scotland.
Jonathan Davies is the worst commentator in the world. How could he say that Wales played well tonight?
They got 5th in the competion. That is good?
They beat a pathetic English side.
N.Z, Australia and S.A would beat all the teams that played today by at least 50 points.
6 Nations rugby is a disgrace!
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The Northern hemisphere rugby is terrible. Italy got 4th in the 6 Nations, ahead of Wales and scotland.
Jonathan Davies is the worst commentator in the world. How could he say that Wales played well tonight?
They got 5th in the competion. That is good?
They beat a pathetic English side.
N.Z, Australia and S.A would beat all the teams that played today by at least 50 points.
6 Nations rugby is a disgrace!
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"What rankles still is to visit those parts of SE Wales that are being overrun by English in-migration and seeing signs like "Woody Grove, formerly Coed yr Allt" at the entrance to middle class building developments. They annexed our country in the 12th Century and they are still at it. And they expect us to love them."
Firstly, I think you'll find it was Norman French monarchy who annexed wales and their dynastic kings ruled for about the next 300 years..... Edouard II ring any bells?
Secondly Woody Grove has probably been called Woody Grove for several hundred years, as most of the industrial revolution in Wales was manned by inward migration from England..... so you are in fact all descended from Englishmen!
Back to reality.... Wales played better than i poor England side and won a game in a poor competition for home nations. (Can i say home nations ? as i'm not sure we want to cuddle each other any more??)
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post 326
I have been to international matches at Twickenham on many occasions and NEVER seen or heard anything like your experience today.
How sad that rugby folk in Wales are becoming the new football hooligans.
I hope it never happens at Twickers!
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post 350
English praise for Johnny W = conceit!
Welsh praise for James Hook = Pride.
someone explain!
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Excuse me jumping in on this BB, but I'm either too stupid or too pissed to work out how to start a new discussion. However my point is that whoever gave that gibbon (Moore) a contract should be shot. He knows absolutely nothing about anything let alone rugby, I'm surprised Eddie didn't grab the microphone and stuff it up the gibbon's nearest orifice! Next time Ö÷²¥´óÐã, get somebody who can talk and think at the same time and knows about rugby. Try Regent Park Zoo, there is a Chimp there who, not only looks like Brian but can also put together a better commentary. I heard once that Gareth Chilcott was voted by his team-mates as the player to most likely to breed outside his species, well I guess Brian Moore is the result. The English Broadcasting Corporation at its best…..god help us.
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Sam - you clearly haven't done much research on definition of "Celts" have you..... if you had you would know that the post glacial influx of iberian peoples bringing with them the Celtic tongues account for about 4% of the Irish DNA and about 7% in Wales - the highest being in southern England along the south coast - 11%..... thank you fellow Celt.
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Hey English folk lighten up! The defeat could and should have been a lot heavier.
Pool your money to buy a chin and use the change to buy the Sunday Torygraph - PC Ackford will surely write that you were the better team and you did in fact win - all will then be great - you can even ask Nanny to put extra Gentlemens Relish on your muffins.
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come on......1/5 wins and it is a triumph .......against a side (England) that is still disorganised, rebuilding (even after three years) and erratic. Some victory. How I respect the Italians....their most successful ever campaign and a quiet dignity to mark it....Wales? one of their worst 6N ever ......and suddenly it is a triumph. And we (the English) are apparently arrogant!!!!???? Give me strength!
Well done Wales - you were the better team on the day!
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reply to:
326 Rich
Hi Rich, I'm a passionate rugby fan and proud welshman however was shamed to read your post.
It obviously won't make any difference to you or to your poor girlfriend but I would like to appologise for the way you were both treated in my country by my countrymen.
it's absolutely disgusting and there is no excuse for this yobbish bullying behaviour..what is this..football??
Wear your white shirt with pride and PLEASE come back to the stadium again i'm sure you'll have a better experience, we're not all mindless, aggressive morons i promise!
sorry again.
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post 360
i think that any praise for hook is based on performance (mainly today's) and also on the hope of what he might represent for wales in the future - much like henson in '05. he played exceptionally well today but before making claims that he is the next wonder of welsh rugby i think we ought to wait a little longer to see.
Wilkinson on the other hand is a formidable kicker but having to listen to claims that he's the best no. 10 in the world etc and the euphoria that surrounds the media (egged on continuously by eddie buttler) is crazy. he is the stereotypical english public school rugger boy (absolutely no offence intended) and coupled with his kicking ability seems to make him the rugby sensation of the decade.
we'll have to give hook the chance to show what he's really made of on an international stage (like the world cup and beyond) but whatever praise he might receive there has never been the 'oh hook's playing so we're bound to win' kind of smugness from the welsh fans that has preceded wilkinson every time he he dons his training kit by the English.
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The rasist comments (for that is what they are) in this blog, just show that the Union is no more. The sooner the Scottish and Welsh go there own way, with only themselves to blame for ANY problems/set backs, the better, although they will still find someway of blaming the English even then.
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As a proud Welsh man currently living in England I have enough to put up with watching the Six Nations why do I also have to suffer the indignity of watching a home Welsh game being commentated on by Eddie Butler who is the most English Welsh man ever to be born and the "Pit Bull" Brian Moore. To add issult to injury that fool Austin Healy is also on the TV. WHY WHY do we suffer such English bias. A home game should have Welsh comentry.
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Comment #367. When you learn to spell, feel free to enlighten us with your opinions. Until then, please be quiet.
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Well done Wales!
Just winning at last is fantastic, admittedly made better for beating the English (what else are neighbours for but also to be rivals??)
Bonuses ... decent form at last for the back row, which is a talented mix... and James Hook staking a claim for the 10 shirt.
Jones is still a good player, just out of form, but I suspect even when he is back to his best Hook will prove to be better
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326 Rich. I'll speak 4 all those dirty buggers who treated your girlfriend like dirt. I'm honestly sorry. Anyway I got up in the middle of the night 2 listen 2 that match because in australia they don't have the six nations on foxtel. I am born in Wales though and I'm so proud of it. It was very very nerve racking but I'm glad that we won. I'm not making any excuses here but if Wales had played properly in Edinburgh they would have won.
Anyway the game should have been dead and buried in the opening twenty minutes. But Shane Williams chose to keep the ball to himself and try and be a hero. This is coming from his biggest fan.
Even though I'm delighted with the result, I'm very dissapointed that we didn't win at least three games this tournament. Anyway England aren't that good anyway (as alot of English fans say) so really we shouldn't be taking that much out of it apart from ending a 5 game losing streak and gaining some confidence. I hope there's more for Wales out there.
Despite this, Gareth Jenkins I think should be replaced by Mike Ruddock (although as I've said before he probably won't want to come back.
As for the rest of the games before the world cup I think we need to prove ourselves in the warm-up games and that means winning at least once in Australia, winning in Twickerham (see how we do against our rivals on their soil) and some of the other games.
We've got an excellent draw for the world cup really though so if we can beat the aussies in cardiff we will most probably be playing England in Marseille. If not South Africa. Or possibly Samoa!
Anyway we've got so much work to do before then so we've got to be prepared.
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To #326, I lived down under and used to get wound up that all games were so late at night! Anyway, Australia have huge respect for Wales and you are correct, if we can beat them in the pool games the rest should click in to place to reach a semi final.
BUT, not with Stephen Jones there and not with Horseman there, Jones has got to step out and be cover on the bench after Hooks performances, its not beginers luck any more, he plays natural rugby and it seems at the highest levels! Horseman is a penalty monger! If he could control his temper to at least the opponents half! He cost us alot of points this year!
Wales bow out on a classic win and can at least feel alive again, no one stuffed us no one looked like stuffing us so stick to what we have and wins will arrive come September 2007
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welshgirl 383
How does a person's spelling error disqualify them from their right to an opinion and indeed the basic right to freely express that opinion?
Now we see not only rabid nationalism from someone on this blog, but the most arrogant form of bigotry yet.
Notably you said absolutly nothing about the game!! Are you rugby fan? Or maybe just another bigot from the val-lies? (please forgive my pathetic effort to write in a welsh accent lmao)
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Wow good to see passions run high still in six nations. i live in south africa these days but am a passionate welsh supporter, to the english man who thinks we're rascist and should go our own celtic way i can only say im sorry but we'll be around for a while yet to torment you. england wales is the best game on the planet and i for one would be sorry if that day ever ceased to be. why doesnt he take it on the chin with a grin and stop being boring! well done wales, lets see them play like that in the world cup and there might be a few upsets. also well done to england beating france previously. hope that unruffles ur feathers. and to all the welsh supporters out there i have only one word: 'YES'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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326 Rich
i to am sorry to here of you bad experience. in all the years i have supported rugby i have never seen any thing like what you have described. i can assure you these people are a minority and are probably not regular supporter's ,only turning up for the england v wales match .we have scumb bags both sides of the border. thankfully they are rare at ruby matches and i know where myself and my mates to witness any of this kind of behaver at a match we would put a stop to it.
Any way no beating england isn't every thing but it was a descent consolation prize. i expected you lot to put 20 points on us we needed the win. think how depressed id be right now wooden spoon the English press gloating no more six nation matches to look forward to . its bad enough it being mothers day .its cost me a fortune and my wifes face is still down to here boots. still i can crack a smile because of the win.
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comment 383 - welshgirl
sorry to offent you welshgirl but i'm dyslexic (about the only word i can spell correctly) however i can appreciate that for some people an inability to spell must signify a lack of intelligence - a prejudice i've had to put up with all through my life, still- thanks for highlighting it here.
nevertheless, did you have an opinion to make? this is a rubgy blog entitled 'as long as we beat the english' the one about taking the piss out of people's disabilities you will probably find somewhere else.
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Wales were awesome. Their back row totally outplayed our boys, ripped into everything we tried to create and set up a great platform for that Hooky lad to control things well. Always going forward. He had an armchair ride really.
All that said, I note a few bloggers suggesting the England team, as with Croke, didn't turn up - I have to agree, in fact I am quite sure I saw Corry, White, Lund and Haskell sharing a sneaky fag on the England team-bus around the time that Wales set down for their opening try. And I ain't talking the sort you light either... ;o)
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I hope France win the world cup and we all start to wear striped jumpers and onions and smoke Gauilloise cigarettes. Interestingly enough if you look at the number of rugby players in Wales, England etc. then by all accounts England should be a much better side. The fact that they are not means that:
a) Public schools do not encourage rugby past 15
b) Public schools focus on GCSEs instead of rugby
c) There is a law that stops Public school boys playing rugby
d) All the public schools in England are closed during the rugby playing season
e) State schools in England don't offer rugby in PE
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Don't be downhearted my Anglo-Saxon chums - your women's team thrashed Wales. Perhaps you can get some tips from them?
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hi
i'm happy that Wales won.im welsh
they did brill
James Hook fab!do u think
GO ON WALES ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!
england!boo 4 ever
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Chris - you may not be able to spell but you seem to be more than capable of venting ill-informed generalisations about a people you know very little about.
Again.... English pride= arrogance
Welsh pride= historically justified love of nation....
Understand this. Most English people do not believe that their teams in any sport are World beating. Most English people have a slightly muted love of country, (not an over-riding, anthem singing, hand on heart, nationalistic fervour) and most probably find your opinions quite strange when it is the some of the Welsh who post on these forums who are believers in their superiority.
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Hey Wales, wheres your world cup hey? shhhhhhhhhh
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i really enjoyed the game yesterday it great to see wales firing on all cylinders ..but wots beginning to irritate me is the english comments about 'if thats all that matters beating england then your sad'..ok the game does have extra spice because of history but to me and many other welsh people its about pride, vastly out numbered by other countries population sizes and infrastructure, we just have a couple of guys from south wales taking on all commers in the game ..and before any says well new zealand only have a population of 3 million they are a country in their own right who can produce a good team in almost any sport..wales simply do not have the money or the resources to do that (or pacific islanders to pinch) all those players out on that field yesterday were fuelled up on pride for there country..so when we topple much bigger countries with bigger squads and resources and population sizes the victory is even greater...so my point is thats its just not about u being english!!...oh and another thing u beat france who went on to win the tournament so u cant be that bad.
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When Wales when the world cup, I might take notice of their gloating supporters. Rugby is their national sport and they couldn't finish higher than Italy.....
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I watched the match in the pub yesterday and the atmosphere for the match was amazing. As a welsh fan, sitting with my friends who were a mix of both, we had a fantastic time. I agree with my English friend who stated when it was at 18-18, that whoever won the match, rugby had won as it was a fantastic game that was bad for my stress levels!!! After we had won, everyone was shaking each others hands, comiserating with the English in good natured fashion, and then all heading to the bar for a drink! Surely this is what the 6 nations is all about?
Excellent game!!!
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Oh how i love to beat the English and send them packing . We actually trounced you yesterday. great
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
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Oh yes all is right with the world Wales beat England. The one game in the six nations they managed to win. How sad that this once great Rugby nation has resorted to this. Look at the bigger picture. Wales should be aspiring to be chalenging in world terms not looking at winning one game against lets face an average England side .
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So there I was, sitting in a shopping mall in the southern hemishpere hoping that somehow England didn't sneak it. Two good breaks down channels shut down with avengence otherwise, a lucky bounce and a lonely lunge for the line, that was Englsnds lot. Wales played with passion, territory and most importantly the ball for most pf the match. Nice to see the Ö÷²¥´óÐã headline is that Ashton saw positives in the "dynamic" England side ;-) Presume Alistair Campbell gave the post match pep talk and Ashton debrief, as no one else could deliver that reflection. Enough said. Wales have had some tradgic results but played well in passages. On todays performance they are ready, so if you are onside, get behind them. You will deliver the confidence they need.
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What a glorious, glorious day it is here in Wales today!
Don't you just love the English?
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Hey Jonesy - I bet you keep your English ancestry quiet....
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Despite Wales losing 4 out of 5 I think Wales are considerably ahead of England as a team. We played 3 games on the road this season and for whatever reason our forwards didn't start performing until yesterday. If we can keep the front 5 playing like they did yesterday and secure 50% of possession Wales are capable of beating any team in the world. That said unlike other leading nations Wales are also capable of losing to the weaker nations if they are not at 90% or above.
The sad fact is that until England sort out club rugby they will not challenge for honours internationally.
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Steven who?
Let's hope Hook stays for good now then! Sheer class, that will only develop into brilliance with more games at no 10.
Next thing we should do is get rid of that Gary Glitter lookalike, Gareth Jenkins, before the World Cup!
I thought we could have put at least 40 points on them but for some uncharacteristicly bad decision making from our key players at times. A 40 pointer would have convinced me that our blip was over and we could make improvements just in time for the World Cup.
However, as we didn't convert our dominance into more points, I still harbour some real concerns about our ability to compete with the big boys (obviously not including minnows like England!) when it matters later this year.
I'm not sure Glitter has got the humility or wherewithal to admit he was wrong by permanently dropping Steven Jones and getting in a more able team of coaching staff under him though. I hope he proves me wrong.
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Message to the English:
For all those centuries of oppression, persecution and attempts to erase our national pride and identity; you are now most certainly forgiven!
Please don't ever change!
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Post 400 - Jonesy
Yesterday Ireland Trounced Italy, it could be said that the French Trounced Scotland, one thing that did not happen my Welsh friend is a trouncing at millenium stadium. England played pretty bad all game, yet Wales still only won by 8 points. When you won the Grandslam and beat England by one point that also does not translate as a trouncing. Have fun with your win, note the singular language there. Win opposed to wins. :) haha
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In the year 2030, the British Lions squad will be made up entirley of people from Port Talbot!
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408
How was your lemon juice this morning? Bitter, by any chance, lol
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Congratulations to Wales on a respectable 5th place (just below Italy). Next year who knows what dizzy heights will be achieved? ;) ;)
Seriously though - well done Wales, the better team won (and gave a glimpse of what they can do if it all clicks).
From an England perspective, I think most fans would have taken 3 from 5 if you'd offered it before the tournament (and bitten your hand off if you'd included France). Lots of work to come but at least we're rid of Andy Robinson, Wales still have Jenkins!
Great friendly banter from all fans in the pub last night - apart from the girl in the Ireland shirt waving her middle finger in the air for the length of God Save the Queen - thanks for sharing your stupidity with us.
Hopefully we'll meet in the latter stages of the RWC - then we can all have something to be bitter about for decades to come :)
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The reference numbers keep changing - so my sarcastic comment about spelling was not directed at either "Steve" or "Chris" and was not about disabilities.....(?) I responded to "Nick" who didn't write about rugby, but instead just blasted both the Welsh and Scottish.
Come on people, lighten up. Wales won a great game after a series of terrible performances. Let's just enjoy it.
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Whby do the Welsh have such a sad devotion to beating England. To the English it is nothing more than a rugby match against a good opposition side.
Before people start saying about 700 years of history. - What have the young men got to do with this. They have nothing to do with it. They were not even thought of when the conquest of Wales occurred.
Wales will never be a world force again untill they get rid of their inferiority complex against England.
Fair enough it was the last game and Wales want to win at least one match but Wales could lose in the final of the World Cup and they will say" we still beat the hated England so we are laughing".
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I am Welsh and I am disgusted by the small-minded and bigoted attitude of some of my compatriots (and some of the English contributors) on this site. Firstly, if we are going to go into politics on a SPORT website, can I just say that with terrorists on our soil wanting to destroy our way of life, we should all be directing our bitterness at them, not at each other when we have so much in common. This is a time for British unity.
As for this "as long as we beat the English we don't care attitude". It's absolutely ridiculous and reveals the limited ambition of the Welsh. Not just in rugby but in everything. I live in Neath and there was once a time when you'd see certain "professional" rugby players eating kebabs on a Saturday night at 3am, drunk and surrounded by adoring slappers. The players were kings of their own valley and that was enough for them. Us Welsh are so flippin' provincial sometimes and it sucks.
As for Rich, who had a torrid time from Welsh fans at the Millennium stadium - I am so sorry you had to put up with that nonsense but rugby hooligans really are a minority. Please don't let that put you off from coming back to Cardiff.
And to the SH fans slagging off the six nations, it's just jealousy because southern hemisphere rugby is more predictable, your stadiums (and countries) are third world and you'll never have the kind of electric atmosphere seen in Dublin and Cardiff this year.
And New Zealand - since they concentrate entirely on rugby and nothing else, of course they'll be good. But what about your other sporting achievements - athletics, football..?? What exactly has New Zealand given the world bar kiwi fruit, rugby and...err..
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As a Celt I completedly understand that it's GREAT to beat the English. But lets not get carried away.
Between Four and Ten years ago it would have been a GREAT achievement.
Nowadays it is just GREAT fun. This England side are very poor. Disregarding the victory over France; England had not beaten any full strength top five side since the world cup final. (NZ, Aus, SA, Fra and Irl). Indeed they have had fifty points put past them on three occasions, several forty pointers and often have failed to cross opposition goal-line.
Indeed for the Largest playing base in World rugby their six nations (second tier tournament)standing since 2003 has been 3rd 4th 4th and 3rd.
Scotland beat England last year. Argentina beat England at Twickenham and a South African reserve side also tasted victory in the Autumn.
In my opinion the Welsh performances against the better sides - France and Ireland - which were not bad, indicate where they stand in the pecking order, not this victory over England.
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Woah, there are some bitter, bitter english people on here?! Yesterday was so good because wales showed a return to good form after a series of terrible games. However,I thought sport was supposed to be about fun, enjoyment and entertainment?!
Come on guys, calm down! Everyone is entitled to be proud of their country, and welsh national pride is one of the reasons it's the best country to live in in the world!
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Yes good point made earlier,, Wales has their national sport as rugby (pleae note, rugby a great sport invented by us english) and yet Wales couldnt even beat Italy, or finish higher in the table. Let's not mention the football hey lads. Also, i'd like to comment on the scum that spat on an English female supported at yesterdays game. How low can you go Wales!!!
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The rasist comments (for that is what they are) in this blog, just show that the Union is no more. The sooner the Scottish and Welsh go there own way, with only themselves to blame for ANY problems/set backs, the better, although they will still find someway of blaming the English even then
any chance of paying us for our water or scotland for their oil then ?
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I read a squillion anti-Welsh comments and then others from the bright sparks who accuse the Welsh of myopia and petty racism. You English take the buscuit. You're the worst people in the world and everyone knows it. By the way, yesterday was sublime, even if it was a win against a bunch of over-indulged fairies. Easy; frankly even embarrassingly so. Ta-ra, numpties.
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I really can't get over the number of posts containing the comment: 'why do wales only care about beating england'....do you english guys actually believe this??? at best the 'as long as we beat the english' quote is used as a light hearted joke here in wales, mainly based on the fact that wales v england has always been a fantastic and competative spectacle to watch. the 51 - 52 wins is a testament to that. this year, regardless of opposition we have been in with a shout of winning in all the matches - this shows a lack of confidence more than a lack of talent(the latter is usually denoted by a couple of 40 point drubbings). So sorry, that im not that disapointed this year. Yes im very happy we beat england, but only because wales showed they can win when playing with confidence. So i think theres a bit of reverse psychology going on here, so quick to jump on the above comment, yet if the english want to talk about a country being bitter then they only need look back at when wales beat them 32-31 and after which their players refused to talk to any of the presenters after the match, something which i have never seen a french, irish, italian, scottish or welsh team ever do. So well done Wales for beating england and well done england for beating france...good matches lads!
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Can anyone find a link on the net to a video of Kelly Jones singing that oh-so-special song? My brother is stuck in England while we celebrate; if I sent a copy of it to him it would make his day....
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Hi Welshgirl,
Wales deserved the win! England are not very good at the moment and will probably be knocked out in the group stages of the WC. None of the northern Hemisphere sides play flowing rugby, always taking the ball into the contact and not making it available for offloads. They will all get severely punished by the southern Hemisphere sides that can.
However, having said that, Sorry to have misspelt racist for you! But if making a typo makes someone illiterate and therefore unable to have an opinion in your books then you’re a bit of a bigot.
The number of blogs on this site just show how affected a number of people are in this respect. I have suffered numerous cases of racism because I’m an Englishman, similar to the instance spelt out by Rich in 327 that I, like a number of people, have finally come to the conclusion that it's time everyone went there own way
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AsLongAsWeBeatTheeEnglish!! =D lol
i dont wot it is but every welshman has been brought up to hate the english its in our blood but it go shows the country's heart is bigger than the country its self!!
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any chance of paying us for our water or scotland for their oil then ?
Yes. With all the millions of pounds flowing west and north into over staffed public services and financially subsidised radio and television and 3/4 of Merthyr Tydfil on the sick I think we already pay.
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Obviously, as a Scotland fan (whisper it) I didn't know who to support, untill about 30 seconds into the game, then it became glaringly obvious.
Maybe if the English weren't so full of themselves, every other country in the world En-ger-land came up against wouldn't want to knock ten bells out of you's. Then again, maybe not...
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For all those centuries of oppression, persecution and attempts to erase our national pride and identity; you are now most certainly forgiven!
If you go back 20 generations, to say 500 years ago (at 25 years per generation) then we all have about 1,048,576 ancestors.
5 more generations, so around 600 years or so, then we have 33,554,432 ancestors....
So, my dear 'Neil Kinnock' if you have the mental capability to grasp the concept then you will realise that you are in fact also descended from those 'Anglosaxon' and 'Norman French' oppressors.... so go hate yourself and blame your forebears for the sad life you now fill.... for, shock and horror, you are not pure Celt, as no such thing exists.
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AsLongAsWeBeatTheeEnglish!! =D lol
i dont wot it is but every welshman has been brought up to hate the english its in our blood but it go shows the country's heart is bigger than the country its self!!
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419 Barry Rees
So we, the English are the worst people in the World.
A very reasonable assessment my friend - after all we are far more evil than the islamo-fascists spreading death and terror around the World aren't we. And we are certainly worse than the Zimbabweans who only conducted a racist campaign that has resulted in the bread basket of Africa becoming a famine stricken mess. Oh! lets not forget how much worse we are than the Americans, who think they can bomb and shoot the world into a US style global market backed up by their version of democracy. Let's not even mention the Holocaust or ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. After all we are much worse than that.
I think you got it just about right there mate. Maybe you were talking about crimes that were committed hundreds of years ago - I think the phrase is 'Get over it'
Numpties? Hmmmm! You really have just embarrassed yourself. You are a joke!
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419 Barry Rees
So we, the English are the worst people in the World.
A very reasonable assessment my friend - after all we are far more evil than the islamo-fascists spreading death and terror around the World aren't we. And we are certainly worse than the Zimbabweans who only conducted a racist campaign that has resulted in the bread basket of Africa becoming a famine stricken mess. Oh! lets not forget how much worse we are than the Americans, who think they can bomb and shoot the world into a US style global market backed up by their version of democracy. Let's not even mention the Holocaust or ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. After all we are much worse than that.
I think you got it just about right there mate. Maybe you were talking about crimes that were committed hundreds of years ago - I think the phrase is 'Get over it'
Numpties? Hmmmm! You really have just embarrassed yourself. You are a joke!
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418 jbob
I think the English taxpayer has more than paid for your water by keeping significant numbers of Welsh people in a benefit lifestyle since your trade unions made Wales an economic desert as a result of constant strikes. Who the hell would invest in a country with a workforce that doesn't work!
Oh and the oil is extracted from international waters by global multinational companies. It is traded on internationl commodities markets! .......Whose oil?
Rugby
By the way, I thought the Welsh rugby team played very well yesterday and deserved their victory. Respect to them.
But not to the bigots who spit on English women. Must have been Cardiff City footy fans. Wales was shamed by that one single act. The other fans should have thrown them out of the stadium.
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I find it really sad that a blog about a rugby match seems to have turned into a cultural/political/'racial' slanging match.
I am proud to be Welsh and proud to have seen an exciting game with Wales taking a long-awaited victory, putting in a good - but by no means great - performance.
Rugby is our national sport and yes, there is something very special about the Wales-England fixture which is part of our heritage. This is something to celebrate so why can't we just leave it at that? Using it as an excuse to perpetuate out-dated, xenophobic attitudes only displays (on both sides) an unacceptable lack of sportsmanship and a lack of confidence in our national pride.
We should be bigger than that, and thankfully - I think most of us are.
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393 Jon
Who are these Anglo-Saxons you refer to?
I thought this was a thread about England vs Wales.
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There's a underlying arrogance and self importance that makes England such a target. The nations media is a good example of this... pick up a 'NATIONAL' paper or watch the 'NATIONAL' news and everytime England gets the limelight, after the game I read a national paper and all the English teams performance was rated! What about the Welsh, or for that matter the Irish and Scottish, no pictures just a small paragraph. Then there's the national news. Now we all have our local news and I'm not referring to that, take the Ö÷²¥´óÐã 'National' news. If there's some european international football games being played, they spend 5 minutes covering England's progress, Beckham's fingernails or something, then simply just mention the score of the other home internationals without showing any footage. This kind of subtle discrimination doesn't help and you see lots of other examples of it, be it in JJB Sports, I'm sure this shop is anti Welsh. They never stock any tops and when I've asked about it.. they say 'you want a welsh top, why don't you got to Wales' like they don't stock Portugese, Italian, Brazilian, Swedish stuff.
Back to the game now... Wales have a really good squad and have shown some excellent play during the 6 nations, in the final game they wanted to WIN, it's a pity they didn't have that strong desire previously.
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I see they are celebrating in that western region of England known as Wales. Equal bottom of the championship, 1 win from 4 but ecstatic because they had one good day. Shows exactly why the Welsh were so easy to conquer, why they remain a colony and why noone takes Wales seriously as a rugby nation.
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Congratulations to Wales on their win. A lot of hate and bile on these comments, which is sad to see, but as there were still no reports of violence or any bad conduct by fans (barring Rich's experience) I think rugby won it today.
Although the games were good today, and another gripping tournament draws to a close, none of the Northern sides are a patch on the All Blacks! At this rate none of us are even going to beat the Aussies or Boks.
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Dr Zemf
Where do you live?
If you're Welsh and living in England please feel free to go back and take your petty and bitter attacks with you.
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Went to the Wales vs England game and felt that, on the day Wales were by far the better team. Shame I couldn't say the same for some of their supporters! Very disappointed to hear several sections of the crowd near to where I was sitting booing while the English anthem was being sung.
I, naively, thought that Rugby fans were above that sort of behaviour.
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266 Gregg,
Q. Why do all international teams want to beat England.
A. They Don't.
Good International Teams want to beat the team in front of them.
Well done Wales - you deserved your Victory.
ps If you'd played like that for the whole tournament you might have been champs.
Still - You beat England - that's all that matters :-)
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426 Celtic Cousin
Please get a grip on yourself.
Please read my original posting (407) again and remind me at what point I referred to my Celtic heritage?
It was our national identity I referred to, i.e. being Welsh.
While we are on the subject of identities though, it is up to individuals to search their souls to realise who they are... Not for little chancers like you to make up bogus stats and assumptions, which even if true, don't effect one's prior conclusions as to one's make up.
It can be entirely possible for one to feel an affinity with the plight of the Celts (as an ancient race), while feeling patriotic about being Welsh and indeed British.
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Gavin (420).
This whole blog is because a Welshman stated that the Welsh beating England would put the world to rights.
Apologies if the English reading bloggers have picked up on this.
Maybe there's a gaelic version for you ;-)
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Its so great to get lessons in humiltiy for our welsh cousins - looking forward to the Max Boyce special already - when we English win we are just so far up our own arses as to be insufferable aren't we.......
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...anyway everyone, getting back to the Rugby for one second.
The Welsh really were up for it and rattled English players, especially the young ones (e.g. did you see the follow through on Flood during the first Welsh try). Maybe England needed to find a subject to get them fired up too?
The worrying thing for England is the number of line breaks the Welsh made. If Shane Williams had been more clinical, England would have been out of it by the first half. Picking backs based on creative flair is only one half of the equation.
P.S. Who are Celts? Didn't they migrate here from eastern Europe after the ice age?
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Wales Vs England can be used as a barometer, as England always think they are the best team in the world dispite recent records, therefore saturdays result means Wales are now the best team in the world.
This win does give hope to a win in the quarter finals of the world cup.
Cofiwch treweryn hogia
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reading this in the cold light of day, I just wanted to express some facts to put both warring factions back in their places. (I should point out that I am Welsh, but that shouldn't make a difference to what is true and what isn't)
1) the Welsh like beating England more than anyone else because of a heady mixture of very true historical atrocities (and I'm not talking about the 12th century or whatever) that don't get taught in English schools (I went to one between age 4-18) and some mythical, perceived ones.
2) what really winds Welsh people up is when English people don't particularly care when they are beaten by Wales (unless of course you've a) been goaded into it, or b) you've decided to proclaim some superiority beforehand)
3) Wales need to become more gracious winners, but it would really help if the English could be more gracious losers.
4) It would serve the English rugby supporting public well - in general terms - to a) learn a bit more about the game other than the received wisdom that England are the best team in the world and always win, b) develop an understanding and a perspective on why every nation on earth seems to entertain a marked dislike for the English, and c) stop assuming that everyone hates the French; no-one hates the French except you. The same goes for the Australians... The Welsh fans don't have a rugby team to threaten the Southern Hemisphere yet, so til then have no choice to remain fixated on doing whatever damage we can to the English.
5) Anyone who verbally or physically abuses anyone else on the basis of the jersey they are wearing should be taken to a dark place and left there forever. If you excuse the obvious yet unintended sexism in this remark - "Rugby is played by grown men and watched by grown men; it's football that is played by little boys and watched by little boys"...
6) The banter expressed in the majority of these posts is technically racism - on both sides. Yes, we Welsh are capable and guilty of it. English people - and I speak from personal experience - you dish it out in spades...
7) we won, and next time we might not. hard luck, good try, well done.
p.s. I thought little Matthew Tait looked lovely; bless him...
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436, I wasn't aware that they played an English national anthem at rugby matches. What is it called?
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441.
Slight over simplification but you'd be correct in assuming that they have absolutely no connection with people now living in Wales, Ireland and Scotland.
Though it's pretty pointless trying to tell them as it upsets their ingrained chippiness.
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I went to the game on Saturday and was sat in a section where there were more English fans than Welsh. The atmosphere in the stadium was amazing and the banter between us and the English fans was fantastic. There was no swearing, booing or abuse at all, we shook hands at the end and they congratulated us by saying that the better side won on the day. That is how Rugby crowds should be and generally always are. In a stadium of 77,000 there are always going to be the mindless morons but thankfully they are the minority and are not just restricted to Wales. I was punched in the side as an 11 year old at Twickenham because I stood up when Wales scored that doesn't mean that I have always had the opinion that English fans are abusive.
I think it really is sad that a Rugby blog has been the catalyst for all this xenophobic and political bile being touted here.
Support your team with pride and shake hands and have a beer that is what Rugby is all about.
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"Gavin (420).
This whole blog is because a Welshman stated that the Welsh beating England would put the world to rights.
Apologies if the English reading bloggers have picked up on this.
Maybe there's a gaelic version for you ;-)"
Oops Jason 439, really showing your ignorance there. Since when have the Welsh spoken Gaelic??? Actually, the blog (from my limited knowledge of English) appears to be a tongue in cheek look at the cliche that the Welsh will be happy no matter what if only they beat the English, the humour in the article appears to have been wasted on many English posters who have re-interpretted it as "Wales only want to beat the English because they hate us and don't care if they lose to everyone else". The Welsh hate losing a rugby match to anyone and are extremely disappointed at this season's showing, in my case even more so after Saturday showed how they can play when they give 100%.
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Dave 443.
Can we move onto the promised facts now please?
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Re Dave's comments At 02:08 PM on 19 Mar 2007, just to say that his comments were splendidly spot on!
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Having been to a lot of internationals at all bar one of the 6N stadia, a significant part of my enjoyment of the occasion has been the abiltiy to sit amongst supporters of both sides with nothing more hostile than a bit of good natured banter. The camaraderie and mutual respect shown by fans of all teams is a significant difference between this great game and many other spectator sports.
My experience leads to me to conclude that there are a lot of contributors to this blog who don't actually attend games and don't get the very thing that makes Rugby Union different from so many other sports.
I am extremely saddened to read many of the comments here, which frankly have nothing to do with Rugby and everything to do with a bigotted, narrow minded, chauvanistic view of the world.
There are a very large number of contributers to this blog who should be ashamed of themselves and personally I hope if you do attend matches I never have the misfortune to be sat anywhere near you.
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Re: 414
We're not so bad at cricket either ...excuse me but was that someone from Wales saying that NZ and Australia are third world countries ??? Have you visited lately?
And you call yourself a peacemaker?
I think that perhaps you are the one who is jealous and frankly a touch deluded.
Personally I enjoyed the 6 nations, especially Italy's display and watching France pull together was great too. It was a shame for Ireland but they did a great job at the Cricket World Cup.
Can't wait for the Rugby World Cup...but in the meantime I'll see how NZ goes in the cicket..
It's all about the sport guys - not the petty jealousies and the past...ENJOY
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Jason (439)
Quite correct, the blogger points out that over the period of time he has watched rugby, he has been used to Wales' dominance over England for the majority of the time, and to him this is a more normal state of affairs.
I however was rebutting the idea that all Wales care about is beating England. Which, if my English is correct, are two separate and distinct concepts.
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Only the French showed any consistency during this campaign.
Unfortunate slip against the English but these things happen.
Congrats to Wales on the win against us on Saturday. It was a fantastic game of Rugby played at breakneck speed which showed just how much further England have to go to compete at leave alone win the RWC this year.
It has been an up and down campaign and impossible to call some of the games but still a great championship.
Let's all set our sights on the RWC and aim to get all our home nations competing at the top level and put it to the SH sides.
Realistically though I think SA have the edge on NZ.
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Re: 414
..We're pretty good at cricket...
But yes we do tend to concentrate on what we're good at...
and we don't do too badly for a 'third world' country.
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Wales celebrated well into the night, and awoke on on Sunday moring with massive hangovers and the realisation that they are still ruled by the English. How good to be Welsh
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Its really strange that England are the old enemy of just about all the other nations. Still Wales deserved their win ,its just a pity they only seem to raise there game against England and let the likes of new boys Italy make them look less than average. Also what was the ref thinking about allowing a knock on when the ball went backwards? must be another old enemy action. Anyway well done Wales.
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Hey Larry , that's because you've invaded half them, then left a lot of carnage behind. Did you not do history in school???
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"For all those centuries of oppression, persecution and attempts to erase our national pride and identity; you are now most certainly forgiven!"
Neil Kinnock
The simple point i made, which obviously is too hard for you to conceive, is that in the period history to which you refer, "the english" and "the welsh" have interbred, to the tune of many millions of descendants -and their descendants are..... ALL OF US!! INCLUDING YOU.
So, if you want to moan about oppression, blame your own great,g,g,,g,g,g,g,g,g,g grandfather!!
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Hey Celtic Cousin son,keep your dumb opinions to yourself, your calling me a bigot,you dont know anything about me. I'm not English or British or a decendant off,you seem to think I am, (dont be fooled by my name)where I'm from we never invaded anybody under my countries flag, so you can go and flog yourself an education like your buddy Larry,
"Eireann go brath"
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I am Welsh. St. George did not kill the Welsh Dragon.The legend of the Welsh Dragon and the legend of St George are entirely unrelated.This is one of a myriad of examples of English arrogance and innaccuracy over the centuries in which they have oppressed a small but giant-hearted nation.Is it important that a Welsh sports team beats an English one.YES!Oh and by the way, Taffs are from Cardiff(where the river Taff is), or is it ok to call someone from Lancashire a cockney?PS For any Englishman who thinks the Welsh Dragon is dead, find a Welshman, tell him so, see what happens to you.
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"Eireann go brath"
So which part of Celtic speaking Antartica are you from? because i don't know of any country thats never been involved in some war / invasion / enslavement / pillaging .... no matter what flag they fly.
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History, your story,
passion is obligatory,
who did what to who and when,
we are all sons of these men,
and now there are such great divides,
and yet the thing which joins the sides,
are common ancestors of old,
upon these isles windswept and cold,
in their graves they are all turning,
for to the past we keep returning,
and they ponder as to whether,
we can all be brought back together.
United we stand, divided we fall,
Love each other, one and all.
Copyright me 2007, just now.
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Alun Smith
Re. the dragon story, it is not arrogance to be wrong.... it is just ignorance.... or maybe it was allegory?
Smith - must some English in there somewhere back??? have you looked into your English forebears??
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CELTIC COUSIN,
I WANT YOU TO NAME ALL THE COUNTRIES THAT THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND HAVE INVADED UNDER IT'S FLAG, I.E. SINCE 1922, ASWELL AS THE RACES THEY'VE ENSLAVED, AND THE LOOT THEY'VE PILLAGED.
THIS SHOULD BE INTERESTING.
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I think theres a lesson to be learned here, have one blog with just the article for those of us who are interested in reading it and giving our opinion on, and then a whole seperate blog for those among us who only have the capacity to read the blog title, then insist that they are giving an informed opinion, but in reality just using the blog as one of probably many vehicles they can clasp onto just to insult people.
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CELTIC COUSIN,
I WANT YOU TO NAME ALL THE COUNTRIES THAT THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND HAVE INVADED UNDER IT'S FLAG, I.E. SINCE 1922, ASWELL AS THE RACES THEY'VE ENSLAVED, AND THE LOOT THEY'VE PILLAGED.
THIS SHOULD BE INTERESTING.
I think you'll find Irish attacks and enslavement of Britons resulted in your patron saint being taken from Britain to Ireland..... interesting!! You don't need a flag to commit crimes.
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Will
Again, I think you'll find an Irish professor recently stated that the Irish have more English DNA than Celtic.... You, i am afraid, are descended from those English settlers who made your island their home many centuries ago... if you want someone to blame for your miserable existence, blame you own ancestors, as you are descended from those rapists / pillagers / enslavers.
I seem to remember mention in history of the feared Irish attacking the coasts of Wales and England and taking slaves back to ireland.... if this is nothing to do with you, then what was done under the British flag has nothing to do with me!! Name me one Briton alive today who had any involvement.....
You should not put the sins of the father on the child.... get over history, for it is not YOUR history, and move on.
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POst 461
Last sentence sounds like a threat - is that what a rugby blog should be all about.
Let's face it, the Wales rugby team deserved their win. They were the better team on the day. Congratulations to all of them.
What I do not understand is how people all over the countries of Wales and England seem to think that through the efforts of 22 men on one day they are all empowered over the supporters of the other team. It was your team's victory. Congratulations to them. We should all be proud of our teams and their achievements. However, we DO NOT have a claim to any of their glory! We are all spectators and no more - so a supporter from Wales is not a better man that an supporter from England just because his country's team won on the day. It is a sport and that is all.
With regard to all the rest of the nonsense on here - it is history - let it go. The UK was once a great nation and a place where all inhabitants had a chance to prosper - if they chose to. We should not hate because of the actions of our ancestors.
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asan irish fan i'm appalled by some of these comments on this blog! surely this was about a rugby match! i'm so sick of bloody history being brought up every time! seriously i wasnt alive when britain colonised ireland and neither were most of the british on these blogs! therefore stop having a go at them from some deluded irish idiot who was probably only born in 1982. likewise british fans colonisation wasnt very pleasant for the irish nor for the african nations. it's been proven. but for god's sake can we not watch a decent game of rugby without bringing up history. i personally go to england regularly and always treated with great respect and have loads of friends there! it's rugby not a history lesson!
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Oh happy days. As I entered the hallowed stadium called Kingsholm I was met by many a derogatory comment (for a Welsh rugby shirt I was wearing). Following a good win over the Quins I made my merry way to the local to be met by many a chorus suggesting I should go home now as the result was all but done and dusted. Funnily enough the pub was very quite come 7 o'clock except a cocky Welsman singing Sospan Fach ( wonder who that was).
In all honesty a good day, much bickering (all friendly)and some half decent rugby. Look forward to the next one.
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For myself one of the main reasons that beating the English is more important than the other five nation teams is the huge pool of resources and players that England have at their disposal which never seems to be acknowledged.
Registered players:
Italy 46,000
Ireland 60,000
Wales 70,000
Scotland 99,000
France 248,000
England 1.2 million
Interestingly NZ only have 140,000 and if you add every country in the world cup together excluding England you get 1,577,400 registered players
[sourced from the official 2007 WC site]
Yes, we do know you are the World Champions, well, with almost half the amount of registered players as the rest of the world put together, you should be.
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I can't start to say what I think to the majority of this board in anything under 12,000 words so I'll do it loosely in one...PATHETIC.
462 - The One. Really nice.
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The simple stuff first:
Most of the major sports herein discussed started in England, or at least found their first legs in England - rugby, cricket, football. Football is an international sport, so lest leave that aside for now. Rugby and cricket are played, predominantly, by former colonies and current parts of the UK. So, in simple terms, there is the issue.
The English essentially think this is "our sport, we ought to be good at it" (this is also true of football). The Colonies in simple terms want to put one over their former masters; understandable. The end of their colonial status is largely in living memory, hence the strength of feeling. It never seems to decend to hatred though, merely a greater sense of desire to compete, mpre of which later. I do find it strange though that British seems to equate to English, as it was in fact the British Empire, not the English empire - many of the finest British troops then and now are not English.
It gets really pathetic however when we come back to the home nations, because we are all British today. So in the case of Wales, we are talking of a nearly 1000 year old grudge, Scotland 600 years and Ireland 400 years.
Edward I subjugated Wales and began the conquest of Scotland, largely with Scottish help I should add. The completion of Scottish Union was truly effected by the Staurt line (Scots who ruled Britain as it then was, just as they do now despite having their own assembly, so one could argue that is the English that are again ruled by Scots - Blair, Brown, etc.) So, unlike Wales and Ireland that were actually conqured by the English (or Normans, thus the French??? LOL!), the Scots who it seems hate the English most of all, in fact conquered themselves through greed, bribery and intermarriage!
Ireland is more complicated, but in short was finally conquered by Cromwell, a figure of vilification here in Ireland. What I find entertaining is that most people here think Cromwell exclusively persecuted the Irish; in fact he persecuted Catholics and was so reviled in England for the atrocities he committed that he was exhumed years after his death and his corpse publically hung for a similar number of years. The really interesting thing about ireland is that they hate the English but seem to like the Scots despite the fact that the plantation owners were laregly Scots, the Black and Tans were largely Scots and to a man, the Unionists in the North today are decendants of Scottish antecedants.
Surely hundreds of years on we are now so interlinked, inter bred that these histories should be irrelvant. And yet.... Ireland, Wales and Scotland play against England with hate. Scotland are cheering on the Aussies in the last World Cup - how pathetic and myopic is that????
As a result of this latter act, I now hope that Scotland lose to everyone from now to the end of time. The Irish team, funnilly enough, sent messages of good will to England in the lead up to the final, an act I am proud of and one that I think truly shows the way forward. Scotland however sent their messages to Australia. No wonder Scots are considered so disruptive on Lions tours when they do, on the odd occasion (certainly of late) when they actually have a player worth taking!
I do not think the Irish team's respect for the England team of 2003 is the sole reason for our current strength, but I do think it played a part. Ireland learnt from that England team, unlike Scotland and Wales. France did too - Laporte has often said as much.
Returning to the hate issue, I have to say that perhaps what England today lack are the likes of Dallagio, Back, Hill, Dawson, Johnson that played with equal hate against Wales, Scotland and Ireland and met the Celts with the same passion and same ferocity. England of today are a shower of wimps by comparison.
So, in summary, the Celts have done well against England away from home this year, largely because it has been hate against naiviety, though I would add that Ireland are a tight head away from a World class side.
I think the modern day Celtic hatred of England is myopic, ignorant and frankly pathetic. Roll on the day when England rediscover some pride in their shirt and fight fire with fire and then we will have a 6 nations to remember and all bets would be off as to who would win.
I am strongly of the opinion that so called English arrogance is down to the fact that many of these games started in England and that the English find it hard to take that they aren't any good at most of them today!
One final point - can England please stop signing "God Save the Queen" as their national anthem as it is the British anthem, not the English anthem. Perhps this too would help to stop the rabid hate that passes for sporting interest in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Perhpas it is a source of irritation to the Welsh and Scots as perhaps, one might argue, it gives them the thought that British means English and thus stirs the hate of the subjugator? Whatever the concensus, I refuse to stand for it and will never do so. I will however stand and give all due respect for and to an English anthem.
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i've read a few comments about how all the "celtic" nations are always only up for beating england because it's england. that may be true of the scots and the welsh (and i'm not critiscising them for that) but someone said it was the same of the irish at croke park. i just want to clear something up. it was a momentous occasion having england and god save the queen at croke park! to be honest most irish fans were looking forward to the match- not because it was england, the "old enemy" which frankly i find insulting to the irish and englsih fans. however the reason ireland were so fired was because of the historic day that was in it and also mostly because we had been beaten by france there 2 weeks before and we didnt want to lose the other home game! not because it was the english. i and most other irish fans are sick to death of the whole celtic nations v english rubbish! the team that is good enough to win deserve it! not because there part of a "triad" of celtic nations or because they're old rivals. have to admit i never shouted for england as much as i did v france tho lol!
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well said greg- are you irish british or englsih tho lol!
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Wales beat England on Merit. Whether England were good or bad, it simply makes no difference. In my eyes that was the best performance by a Wales team in the 6 Nations bar none. They would have blown any team in the world away in that first 10-15 mins and England simply could not cope with it......but..... please dont go on about it for the next 4-5 years until you manage it again.... very, very, boring. We often sweap Wales aside and take our victory in a Gracious manner.
Well Done Wales.
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chris watts agree with the sentiments but talking about wales banging on about a victory over england for the next few years is a bit rich coming from a country where 1966 and 2003 are brought up at every opportune moment! congrats to england for winning the world cup in 1966 and in 2003! can we leave it at that!
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chris watts agree with the sentiments but talking about wales banging on about a victory over england for the next few years is a bit rich coming from a country where 1966 and 2003 are brought up at every opportune moment! congrats to england for winning the world cup in 1966 and in 2003! can we leave it at that! lol. ps only taking the piss!
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Greg
Fascintating and educational. You a history teacher or summat?! I learned a lot from reading that and would now be interested to hear your thoughts on what should be our anthem. I like Jerusalem but the title could make it a tad misleading! Second choice...Ilkley Moor Bar T'at...again, probably not very popular with most of the country. So what can we sing? Suggestions please.
I envy the Welsh when they sing all their folk songs...even if they are about small pans or were written by Tom Jones and Max Boyce (joke). As an Englishman who loves a good sing-song, let's dust off some old folk songs and use them more frequently and at sporting occasions. We are a bit repetitive with Swing Low Sweet Chariot and I can see how it gets annoying. Although the Welsh are in danger of the same with Sospan Fach (you can stick you f****ng saucepan up you a**e!).
I also have to agree with Emerald Star. Apart from the odd comment on here, I don't believe there is the same dislike coming from Ireland as there is fromm Wales and Scotland.
Final comment also goes to Emerald Star. Re. you final comment...2 World Cups is worth banging on about. A grand slam isn't. (I too am taking the piss).
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480 tom! it's true about 2 world cups! they are worth banging on about lol. just letting chris know that if england can bang on about winning 2 wcs wales can go on about beating them to avoid the wooden spoon lol!
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OK, deal! My lady's Welsh and by God she IS banging on about it. ENDLESS!!!
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well my fella is english and can say nothing lol hence the comments about the wcs!
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OK, deal! My lady's Welsh and by God she IS banging on about it. ENDLESS!!!
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I't occured to me on saturday in the stadium, why the welsh want to beat the english so much. Because half the english fan's are absolute arses. Half of them are brilliant, good to have a drink with. but the other half are so far up their own arses its ridiculous. An english fan in front of us was gesturing to the massive majority of welsh fans when england got level on saturday, then last year at twickenham two guys in front of me were shouting abuse at shane williams, calling him a sheep sha**er and all this stuff, and the english wonder why it gives us the greatest joy to beat them.
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barry that is actually shocking- but to be honest at least it's the vast minority. idiots like that should be ignored. to be honest it was probably an english football fan who got lost on the way to a football match!lol.
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Ok, hands up, yes am part West Country English - father is. Mother is Irish and grew up here, so Irish first I think anyway.
As for English anthem - "Land of Hope and Glory" seems to be the most likely as if you look at the Last of the Proms series, that is the one that the English crowds seem to belt out strongest.
England is too divisive in terms of culture to have a unified musical tradition. Celts to in the West Country, Saxons in Anglia & the South East and Vikings in the North East. Really it would be difficult to pin point a single root and whilst those three bloodlines have so intermingled, arguably the traditions have not. Thus, you have Morris dancing and Celt laments as part of the traditional culture in the West Country, unsure what elsewhere.
It would be many hundreds of years after the arrival of the Vikings that the classical era of music led to teh first songs that were nationally absorbed - the likes of Land of Hope and Glory, Jerusalem and so on being the most famous though later prodcuts of this. Jerusalem in fact is a song about the story of Jesus coming to England on the boat of his Uncle, Joseph of Arimethea, which in trun feeds into the mystique of Rosalyn Chapel in Scotland, so perhaps also a good contender as it is a song celebrating England.
Whatever song is chosen, God Save the Queen must go!
Another thought in re. perceived English arrogance; Chris Watt earlier (post 477) has stated that "We often sweap Wales aside and take our victory in a Gracious manner." In contrast, when Wales beat England, national party. Same for Scotland. Maybe therein lies teh rub. England expect to beat Wales and Scotland, so no biggy when they do, tradgedy when they don't, much the same as Wales expected to beat all before them in the 70's. Thus, ironicaly the very fanfare that follows a Welsh win over England serves also to demonstrate the gulf in national perceptions. For Wales, beating England really is an acheivement. For England losing to Wales is a three yearly hiccup in the last 20 years.
I have noticed that as the Irish team does better, so the celebration on beating England has diminished similarly, accelerated by the genius of Andy Robinson in force marching an English decline. Arguably, Ireland now expect to beat England, Wales and Scotland and the real challenge is France. Wales and Scotland do not and cannot until Wales discover a more consistent game plan that allows them to use their strengths without so easilly exposing their bellies and Scotland unearth 14 players of International calibre (expect more "Kilted Kiwis").
Any thoughts on whether this has merit?
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greg your comments are very interesting! must go to the west country sometime! as i said beofre ireland dont take the same pleasure in beating england, that the welsh and scots do. if we beat england we are happy not because it's england but because we did win against tough opponents and even this year- england were not that bad, ireland just brushed them aside! yeah it's true what you say about ireland expecting to beat all the british teams bnow- hope that doesnt sound arrogant but our sights are usually on frnace and will be at the wc. it went wrong this year but i'm still happy with the way we played!
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Interesting stuff Greg. I'm a Yorkshireman, therefore the only song to sing is clearly Ilkley Moor Bar T'at. However, I appreciate this may not be a popular solution nationally. Land of Hope and Glory is a great song. I'd love to belt that out (maaaake me miiiiightier yeeeeet!!!). I also love Jerusalem (I sang that in a 'sing-off' with some Wlesh boys after the match, I also sang Ilkley Moor...).
The thing is, most people are agreed that this is what needs to be done. The Celtic nations certainly want us to change it and, regardless of its history, I think GSTQ is dour and sh*t compared to...well compared to everything! So how do we go about getting the relevant bodies to agree to a shift. I'm up for it.
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P.S. Barry. Ignore them mate. They are the minority in England. My thoughts are thus:
In England, most private schools play rugby and cricket (in my experience). Most state schools play football. Private school kids then go on and play club rugby. Twickenham allocates a lot of tickets to the clubs. Therefore, there are a lot of toffs playing and watching English rugby. Sad but true. And before all the Englishmen jump down my throat becasue they used to live in a septic tank in t'middle o't road and THEY played rugby, I am merely SUGGESTING that this a trend in our system. And then before all the people with a private education jump down my throat and say that they give £10,000 every week to dying Somalians and spend rugby internationals buying pints for the opposition and learning the words to their anthem...I am not suggesting that ALL privately educated people are the morons that end up in the Bullingdon dinner club or whatever it's called.
All I am suggesting is that this could explain some of the ridiculous behaviour that other nations have experienced at the hands of a few tossers with a white shirt on.
Barry...next time you meet another one of those arses in a white shirt, just remember that to the likes of me and my decent fellow countrymen, they are no less idiotic. The VAST VAST VAST majority of English people are well behaved people who would be a great guest at any away match and ahrbour no ill-feeling apart from the odd friendly jibe towards any of their neighbours. Just so we're clear, we are talking about rugby here. Football's a different story sadly.
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The point is we won the most important game. And besides it shows that Steven Jones should move aside to let way for the new - much better - talent. The point that everyone except Gareth Jenkins had realised when Steven was injured in the previous game. He has had his day and this win has just proven that he should no longer be in the squad. Hook is a much better overall player and even without as much experience still judges the game really well. He deserves the chance to play to his full potential not be forced to a position not suited to him by a coach who is clearly favouring Steven just because of their past together. I for one was glad that England were the ones we beat after they had been so confident. Pride comes before a crash boys!!
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although we had a shocking 6 nations this year, i personally feel that any occasion a Welsh side or even the nation beat the English it is a morale victory and as i was shown this year one great way to celebrate your birthday. All i can say is bring on the world cup as it should provide us with yet another tasty encounter should both nations perform well.
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459 Celtic Cousin
I hope you didn't find my delay in responding as an acceptance of the naff irrelevant point you keep trying to make. We haven't all got no lives you see.
Anyway, what period of history did I refer, again? I think I left it pretty vague and open to interpretation myself.
If you wish to see recent examples, which wouldn't include any chance for the offenders genes to enter my bloodline as we speak, check out my postings at 197 and 269.
Additionally, if you read my original posting, to which you have taken such exception, you might want to recognise the undertones of subtle humour/irony.
It must be really hard to be so obtuse, while being bereft of a sense of humour. Quite a feat. Well done!
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agree with tom 492! those kind of pillocks are the losers to be honest becuae everyone scorns them but the real fans are the ones who get together and commiserate or congratuale the opposite teams fans on a victory- that is a typical rugby characteristixs. as for another example of englsih football thuggishness- in a pub in dublin when ireland were playing eng;and this year, croke park being the scene of 14 ppl being shot dead by british soldiers, an english football hooligan IN AN IRISH PUB (idiot) made machine gun gestures at irish rugby fans while the anthems was being played. absolutely disgraceful but he definitely wasnt a rugby fan, just there to cause trouble and disrespect the memory of 14 dead innocents as well as the occassion. and apparently got a good hiding ha ha.. so barry there is always a happy ending lol.
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Phillipa, you did not win your most important game. In a tournament, all games are as important as each other. So the point is, that Wales lost 4 out of 5 games, and that needs some serious work. For as long as the attitude in Wales remains as it is now, where you raise the bar and the effort for one game, you'll remain sniffing around the bottom end of the table, regardless of whether you beat us to save yourselves from total embarrassment. I don't give a monkeys that we lost to Wales. We won 3 out of 5 and there were some real positives to take from the tournament, some real negatives too but after our Autumn internationals, a definite improvement. Passion is a wonderful thing but only when coupled with professionalism, as has been noted by a good few of your countrymen and women on here.
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Neil Kinnock
Have read your postings and am now able to understand why you appear so embittered.
It is because of your belief in this thing called "England" and that this entity, called "England" has somehow, with its one conglomerated mind, conspired against you....
Yes. Lets blame "England" for Aberfan. Well, if this owner of the mine came from England then obviously ALL English are culpable. And the government. THEY do their work in "England", although they come from Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England. So by the same embittered, paranoid logic, then they too are acting on behalf of the "England" entity. I mean, it is an "English" government after all. The other nations are only there to give it some semblance of democracy.
I bet your grandfather told you about the fleas the "English" sent over to torment you. And the germs the "English" put into your undercooked food to make you ill. And I have suspected for some time now that the "English" were responsible for background radiation and increasing levels of Radon gas.....
And i thought cannabis made you paranoid.
When the Liverpudlians drink water they should think of the drowned village. When you go on holiday from Heathrow or Gatwick you should think of the many destroyed villages which lay under the runways........ or maybe the "English" did that because they heard some Welsh were living there?
Grow up.
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martin 334- i kind of resent your comments about the welsh and the irish taking plaeasure in beating the englsih. as an irish fan i am always appalled at some of welsh and scottish attitudes towards the englsih rugby team and supporters. the fact is ireland and our fans dont just look forward to playing only england and beating them because of who they are, we love beating england the same way we like beating the other teams. i dont want to speak for welsh or scottish fans but i know the irish fans dont look to only beating england as a sign of a good season! i really am annoyed with your comments- to be honest ireland in rugby really couldnt care less who they beat- a win is a win and it doesnt matter if it's england or not. as for football, we cant say if we love beating england or not as we havent played them since 1995, when the english football hooligans came to dublin, ripped up seats at lansdowne road, threw bottles at irish fans and onto the pitch and caused the game to be abandoned!
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I see Celtic Cousin got out of the wrong side of bed AGAIN this morning.I really think that you have a serious chip on your shoulder regarding your nationality, should anybody even think about criticising England you're then like a rabid dog, furiously attacking them.
Other people are allowed to have their opinions, even if some are outlandish from time to time. You remind me of McCarthy during the comi witch hunts of the 1950's, your paranoia is truly magnificent.
You do know that this is a blog about rugby, actually I'm not so sure if you do.
NZ to win the world cup, if's that ok with you Celtic cousin of course!!!
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193 daveinaustria. that was brilliant (not being sarcastic) lol. just shown what a fabulous sense of humour the english and has reminded me again(i'm irish) of why i go to england so much. besides the acvailability of smoking in pubs and the fantastic beer!
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A lot of people on this blog are questioning why the Welsh should get so fired up for the English game... Have you noticed that the majority of them are English?
Why should we stop feeling this hatred (if that's the right word), if it is what our rugby team can use/channel into such success on the field?
Of course the English would like us to lose our edge, as any other team with a superior arch rival would.
If our team can do as method actors; remember the motivation they had for the England game and apply it always when they play the bigger rugby nations... Then we're in with a good shout in this world cup.
New Zealand, use the haka to re-find their motivation before every game, and it hasn't done them any harm over the years.
We should find our very own Welsh Haka and be world beaters again.
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owain it's fine to be fired up for a match but when a team that has played as badly as wales all 6n, is only fired up to win when it's against the english, there is something wrong. if you had won 4 out of 5 and lost to england, i think the welsh would have preferred that. the fact is that although the victory over england was good, it's not necessarily going to mean wales are back again. noone is saying you can't be fireed up for a game and friendly banter etc is all fine but some of these comments about wanting to hammer the "arrogant" english are silly and childish. i'm not english- i'm irish and believe me beating any team is the way it works. our season doesnt just revolve around beating england.
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501 Emerald bird
You are actually agreeing with me without knowing it.
My point is exactly one about moving on... and how we could do this by bottling what we've found to work against the English and applying it when we play other teams. It doesn't mean we are back, but it could mean we are on an incline rather than a decline.
On another matter, while you mention it... Ireland, have been quite good at times this tournament (although very lucky to win against Wales and Scotland) and it shows what a team can do when they've had time to mature. But they are by no means the finished article at this point and would get a right thumping by the all blacks, as would we all, at this point in time. I also think that when the older heads retire after the world cup, they haven't invested as much into the infrastructure of the game in Ireland yet for enough younger players to come through and build on the good work.
Don't get me wrong I love Ireland and have a lovely half-Irish son but I fear that your smugness (and the smugness I've witnessed from many of your compatriots with regard to the rugby of late) will soon dissipate and you too will be searching for answers as we in Wales are now.
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496 Celtic Cousin
Thank you for dropping your rediculous attempt of trying to make us feel less Welsh somehow by spouting those pathetic geneology assumptions, which are neither here nor there in terms of the main issue: One is Welsh because one feels Welsh, acts Welsh, is proud to be Welsh and loves Wales.
Whether my great great great grandfather was an Englishman is irrelevent to how 100% Welsh I feel and indeed am.
To illistrate this satirically, shouldn't we change your(English)/our(GB) national anthem to "God Save our German Queen"?
Anyway, finally you come up with some originality in your last rant, which I actually found quite amusing and can respect to a degree, seeing as you are obviously a stereotypically ignorant/arrogant English person, intolerant of other cultures... It was only the constant reference to watered down celtic genes and the aloof "what have we ever done to you?" arguments that spurred reference to the three events in recent history to which I made reference.
You see, I like to think of a love/hate relationship of sibbling rivalries when it come to our two sub-nations. We are both integral parts of a family (GB) who, are constantly striving to be the dominant brother (in rugby terms) and would be prepared to put the other brother down in furtherance of this goal. However, if anyone outside the family or this goal, threatens either brother (e.g. War or Terrorism), the other brother would be the first to jump to his defence.
I would also like to ally myself with the words of wisdom contained in Owain's posting at 500, while also stating that long may our Anglo/Welsh rivalry continue if it produces improved standards of rugby in the land of my fathers.
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owain yes i love the welsh too! but what was so smug about my comments! i really resent being called smug because i realise the limitations ireland have but we still beat wales and scotland despite these! also for the ab's- we have a good chance against them and i have complete faith in my team. it's not being smug, it's being optimistic and supporting my team! we are capable of beating the ab! hope it doesnt come across as arrogance but i am really looking forward to the wc. as for your half irish/welsh son- he has the best of both worlds ha ha!
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Beat up a Toff today :)
Now that is not too difficult ha ha !
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Wales stuffed the Irish pack all game and created a penalty try that they were then cheated out of. Had the score been as it should have been after that decision (the right one)had been given (16 - 12 to Wales), no way back for Ireland. Should've been a win. Had we won that game then the scots would've been the walkover of the century. France was an improvement, but still: no wins, no (allowed) tries, confidence down. If things had been different then so could the scoreline after those two tries at the start. The italy game was a real shock to the system but wales should've won it, and had the officials been of international quality (the bergamasco/jones punch, "can we take the line-out?" - "if you do it now, yes. oh, sorry i forgot to tell you that there's no time left on the clock and i haven't the balls to do my job properly and override the 4th official's decision") then the game was in the bag. England, well what can i say! Did'nt we put you in your place! All the emotion and hope riding on the last game was taken to a different level, because emotion and hope will always prosper over arrogance and smugness. Wales were missing some players, but they have arguably the most talented back line in world rugby, and a pack that found its way against the team that without a pack have nothing. I must say that the english game is the most boring, poorly judged, and over-hyped joke that i have ever layed my eyes upon and it is fronted by probably the single, most overrated sportsman in history:Jonny Wilkinson. Wales for 3rd place in the world cup. England, don't kid yourselves. you haven't got a hope in hell.
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