Catt's back as Ashton wields axe
- 6 Mar 07, 02:09 PM
London - So Brian Ashton has gone back to the future for the Six Nations game with France on Sunday.
He has lost Jonny Wilkinson, Phil Vickery and Andy Farrell to injury but has still opted for radical surgery, with 10 changes in all.
Mike Catt, 35-years-young, must have thought he had exhausted his nine England lives but he is not only back at inside centre, he has also been installed as captain.
Catt has been enjoying a fine autumn to his career with London Irish over the past couple of years.
And his leadership and nous will be vital with the callow Toby Flood, who has won all four of his caps off the bench, filling the fly-half berth in the absence of the hamstrung Wilkinson.
Catt has not played for England since the two in in the summer.
But with Wilkinson and Farrell both ruled out because of injury, Ashton clearly feels he needs a wise old head in the midfield.
It has been an area where England have struggled since Will Greenwood鈥檚 retirement 鈥 can Catt, with his fine wide passing and superb vision, help England鈥檚 spluttering chariot spark back into life?
Elsewhere the big changes are in the pack.
If England were to succeed in Dublin last time out they needed to dominate up front and the red rose front five .
With that in mind Ashton has decided enough is enough and axed three of the Croke Park starters, while captain Vickery misses out after his chances at the weekend.
His absence hands Julian White, probably the best scrummaging English tight-head, the chance to match the grizzled French front row, with hooker George Chuter the only man to keep his place from the Ireland game.
Wasps pair Tim Payne, at loose-head, and Tom Palmer, in the second row, bring power and ball-carrying ability into the side while the decision to move Martin Corry from number eight to second row is an interesting one.
A few pundits have suggested the move but will he be able to compete with the likes of in-form Lionel Nallet and Jerome Thion? We shall see.
Of the other changes, Nick Easter will be more explosive than Corry at the base of the scrum while Tom Rees brings more pace on the open-side than offered by Magnus Lund.
In the backs the return of Jason Robinson means there are small but elusive runners on either wing, while the hard-tackling Josh Lewsey is back at full-back just a few weeks after Ashton said he was at his best on the wing.
Personally speaking I'm excited by the selection of Wasps pair Palmer and Rees, while the introduction of Catt, although a short-term option, is a no-brainer given England's current resources at inside centre.
The pacy Rees should give England more of a presence at the breakdown, while Palmer seems to have all the attributes of a modern-day second row - let's see if he can do it on the highest stage.
Wilkinson and Vickery are arguably the two main cornerstones of Ashton鈥檚 vision for England.
Neither has been at the top of his form in the past couple of games but, psychologically at least, their absence will be a big blow for England.
The question is, will Ashton鈥檚 mix of the old and the new be enough to halt France鈥檚 march towards consecutive Six Nations titles, or will Catt鈥檚 England get creamed?
Wales 27-18 England
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With the exception of out half this team is miles better than the one we thrashed in Dublin two weeks ago.
Just what Ireland needed for a chance at the six nations...this england side is far more capable of beating france than the one we played two weeks ago...that said its a tough task for them but as an Irishman I'll have my fingers crossed
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Another record thrashing that will surpass the Croke Park match.
I really fear for England!!!!
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To be honest i feel it is totally dependent upon the way France play. If France approach the game with the same amount of tactical nouse and patience that they showed against Wales then i believe they will win quite comfortably. However England have nothing to lose, so if they give their best shot, certain moves come off, a little luck, they could do it, dependent upon France of course!
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O dear this is a bit worrying isnt it. I fear for the Corry in at lock against a mobile and on top form French pairing. Good to see Palmer get his chance finally after being one of the few to impress in the autumn. Toby Flood always looks a bit lightweight at international level and i personally would have preffered Gerahty or even stickin in catty at fly half and puttin Tait in the centre. Good to see Strettle keep his place, seems like we've finally found a player who can really take the game to the opposition. It should be intresting
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Consecutive Grans Slams??
Has everyone forgotten that Scotland beat France last year?!
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Everyone could see it coming, with nearly all the England squad playing this weekend our national team is now denied of Wilkinson, Vickery and Farrel with the other players only half fit. France who has the same Club Country relationship as England has at least been able to scrap the domestic games during such an important period.
As the RFU keep printing documents on the "way forward" I wonder how long the 鈥渕ascarade鈥 will carry on for.
Clubs are important but the national team is England鈥檚 show case. All the other countries in the world seem to have understood this, why not England?
England should and must have full access to its players when ever needed. After winning the world cup for years ago we have gone backward.
It's time for a change!
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And there I was thinking Andy Robinson had just about messed things up as far as it was possible when alon comes Brian Ashton to remind me we're nowhere near the bottom yet.
Make no mistake this team will get hammered by France.
Whilst It would be tempting to applaud Ashton now for taking a gamble on youth, why not do it before? Additionally why continue to persevere with Martin Corry? Yes his club form is good. Yes he tries hard. But he does not carry this form to international level where looking stern and getting a bloody nose just isn鈥檛 good enough.
This selection looks like panic and a ready made excuse. Catt can be thrown to the wolves and no one would care. The sad fact is that the England 1st IV couldn鈥檛 beat France and this bunch of muppets certainly won鈥檛.
In fact I鈥檓 going to have 拢50 on France +20
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Radical changes were needed but Wilko and raging bull will be sorely missed. A chance for Tom Palmer to make one of the 2nd row berths his at last. Although Grewcock has been a great servant to England his best days are behind him. Catt is playing well so why not give him another go. He may not be a long term solution but the world cup is this year after all. Not confident of our chances but up the red rose anyway. Swing low sweet chariot...
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Ashton has rerally selected the XV that is available to him. Would have been interesting to see if CATT had come in anyway, had Farrell not been injured. As an Irishman I sincerely Hope and Pray that England win on Sunday, I think with Wilkinson they would have had a great chance. The PACK worries me - we (Ireland) an experienced pack - struggled against France, so with England`s inexperienced pack......hmmm, am not so sure. If England can get ball - then 11, 14 and 15 will be very dangerous and Ireland`s Championship hopes might be ressurected. Ashton deserves some luck - so maybe will get it on Sunday! Here`s hoping.
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Mike Catt is always suspect under extreme pressure, and is a step backwards at this point in time to select him. We have plenty of younger players who deserve a chance. The French will run riot!
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Guscott was looking well on the telly, sure bring him back too, and the underwoods, they have plenty to say
you've already played Farell, who had no experience, putting him straight into an international, so anything goes
I'm sure Moore would love a run out aswell, seeing as he's a tactical genius and SEEMS to know everythign about rugby, he should destroy anybody in the scrum
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Ashton is proving now that he made the wrong choice between Corry and Lawrence Dallaglio.
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Creamed.....
Sadly, not enough power or preparation for the French.
Good move with Palmer - best forward last year.
Geraghty would have got my nod. In form - two tries etc. at the weekend. Newcastle not really on song with Flood.
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An intersting selection, based on survivors of another torrid weekend of GP fixtures and form players?
I would have liked to have seen Shane Gerraghty and Mike Catt starting together, they have formed a good partnership at London Irish, possibly a better selection than starting with Toby Flood at FH.
Also I feel it might have been the right opportunity to throw Matt Tait into the mix. Although Mike Tindall has been fairly solid he has been unable to deliver any flare.. On the occasions when Tait has come off of the bench he has looked inspired, good line breaks, and great defensive tracking and tackling, if unlucky with a few spilt balls now and again.
Still, new combinations bring a sense of anticipation, whether good or bad, I cannot wait until Sunday to see how they fare!
Good luck boys, I hope you can stiffle Les Blues, and open up their defences!
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It's an interesting selection, but i'd be more interested to know who would have been dropped if everyone was fit.
The front row looks more solid, although that's partly due to the fact i personally don't rate Freshwater at all. Don't know a massive amount about Payne, but he's certainly been part of a club side getting some good go forward.
Palmer and Corry is a second row that seems much more balanced than what we've had of late, with Deacon seeming to struggle with the step up in class, and Grewcock struggling tp stay on the pitch. Corry is definitely lacking the pace for a modern day 8, but does have alot of the key attributes for a decent lock.
In the back row i would have stuck with Lund as i think he's got bags of potential, but that's only a marginal call. So in fairness i think the scrum is about the best he could manage in the circumstances (shame we haven't got a decent hooker to speak of).
In the backs, Ellis deserves a longer run at scrum half, if only because the competition is so incredibly woeful. After a promising first 40 minutes in international rugby this summer, Perry just hasn't shown the quality since.
Flood has to be brought in at Fly Half, otherwise what has he been doing on the bench upto this point? I think Geraghty seems to have a bit more about him character-wise, and if you're gonna play Catt, then maybe that would make some sense. Either way you're entering the unknown.
In the centres i would have been playing Tindall at inside and Tait at outside if Wilkinson was fit; but i can completely understand Ashton feeling the need for more experience. I still worry that we're putting out another midfield which lacks pace. Especially against the French.
No complaints about the back three. I think bringing Strettle in was brave, and i would have gone with Cueto myself, but the guy did a good job, and deserves to hold onto his place. Robinson was always going to come back in and I'm glad to see Lewsey back at full back where he belongs. The idea that he's a better winger is just plain wrong.
Still, a great back three is an awful lot better when play has been stretched by your inside men. Just look at Ireland - O'Driscoll and Darcy make Dempsey and Hickey look like world beaters. And that, they are not.
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We'll get creamed! The problem England has had in recent times is on-field leadership. With Wilkinson and Farrell on the pitch, as well as Corry and Vickery, it did look as though we had the experience we needed out there, but with three of those guys out, it's difficult to see where the direction will come from.
France will target Flood, and I'm not sure Catt will really be able to protect him.
Hopefully the forwards will be more competitive than they were against Ireland, and we can make the game close, but it's difficult to see us containing France with this many changes in to the side.
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This team selection highlights the full folly of allowing International players to play club rugby in the middle of a tournament. Both Wilkinson and Vickery would still be fit, and we would have a half-decent chance of winning this game. Admittedly, some of these changes had to happen, ie Catt for Farrell, but until we can have a united front between club and country, we will never scale the heights of November 2003 again.
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I must say I have been saying for about a year that Corry should go into the second row. He is not explosive enough as a ball carrier. He is honest and will work hard which are fine qualities for a second row. I like the balance of the pack. I feel that Lund has been unfairly critisized but Rees looks a really good player. It is a shame that Tait is still on the bench. I think that Ashton felt the backs too lightweight with tait instead of Tindall. The back three look really exciting if only we are able to get the ball to them in space and going forward. On paper we should get another record defeat. Ever the optimissed I am hoping for combinations to work. Flood (not really seen play much) to bed in early, the front five to grunt and start securing ball and go forward with Catt sending out some great passes for our back three to run onto at pace with dummy runners sending the french defence all over the place. Sorry getting carried away. i just hope england can put up a decent fight score some tries and stay close to the french score.
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Once again I have not much of an idea of how it's all going to go, as there seems to be no coherent vision.
If it goes well the forwards will compete better than last week so it might be a tight game if they tackle themselves to a standstill.
If it goes badly and the French "click" it will be the Massacre at Ballymore all over again..
If I was religious I would be praying for England now..
Scott the Aussie...
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Well, changes were certainly necessary...
Front Row: With Vickery struggling for form, irrespective of any injury, I think it is a good thing to see Julian White return. Despite his indiscipline, White remains the best pound for pound scrummager in England. Hopefully he will rise to the challenge of what is likely to be a powerful French front row.
Until someone better emerges in the Hooker role, I can't see that Ashton had any choice than to persist with George Shuter. Dylan Hartley at Northampton is certainly an exciting prospect, but for one so young and lacking in experience, i'm not sure a rampant France is the game in which to blood him. Perhaps it is in his absence, that the real value of Steve Thompson is shown.
I have not seen enough of Tim Payne this season to comment on his selection, but with a fine return from Sheridan at the weekend, i think i would have been tempted to take a gamble.
Second Row: This is the area where i feel England have been so lacking so far, and i am pleased with Ashton's changes. Tom Palmer has been outstanding for Wasps this season, and deservedly comes in for the ineffectual Deacon.
Moving Martin Corry upto the second row in place of the petulent Grewcock was perhaps the leftest of leftfield calls by Ashton. But why not? Corry lacks the pace to be an explosive number 8, but retains an immense work ethic, is a decent ball handler, and is already utilised as a key line out man. This may prove to be a wise choice.
Back Row: Joe Worsley deservedly retains his place. He may often go unnoticed in games, but that is exactly what you want from a blindside flanker. No doubt he will again top England's tackle count on sunday. Also, a back fow of Rees, Easter and Haskell would simply be too in experienced, especially when one Serge Betsen is around.
Tom Rees is the right call at 7. Magnus Lund has done a fair job, but Rees has been the outstanding premiership openside this season, and brings some much needed pace and dynamism to the pack.
It is fantastic to see Nick Easter been given another shot, after what was a fair, if unremarkable debut against Italy. Having watched Easter at Quins this season, No. 8 is his best position, and hopefully we will see his excellent ball handling skills in close contact, which should quicken the pace of Englands general play.
And to the backs...
Half Backs: Ellis has been good enough so far, and with little competition (save a rejuvinated Andy Gomersall) rightly retains his place.
With Jonny out, Toby Flood had to come in at fly-half, having been the understudy for 3 games. He had a decent game for Newcastle on saturday, and no doubt be looking forward to getting a full 80 minutes at Twickenham. Whether he can cut it at this level yet, we will wait and see.
Centres: Great to see Catty back, and with a young fly half earning his first start a wise choice. Catt's inclusion brings added kicking options, as well as a much needed vision to the midfield. However, i think it is sad that England need to return to a 35 year old in midfield to try to rescue them.
Tindall has had a decent season at Gloucester, and hopefully alongside Catt we will see him do what he does best. Run straight and hard, preferably into David Skrela! Tait is unlucky not to get a run though.
Back Three: Lewsey reverts to full back, his best position. Full back remains, primarily, the last line of defence, and the best pound for pound , one on one defender in England is the correct selection.
Robinson was stunning 3 weeks ago against Wasps, and rightly comes back in. Still creates an air of uncertainty in any defence, i just hope he does not get isolated.
And finally thank goodness Dave Strettle is retained on the wing. He has been outstanding all season for Harlequins, and showed on the few occassions he recieved the ball against Ireland that he is not at all out place at this level. If England can give him some space one on one with Dominici, then i know who my money is on.
All in all, despite the obvious absentees, i still think England can go into this match with optimism.
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It's not the greatest team England will ever have, but at least it should put up more of a fight than we saw against Ireland. it will be good to have another look at Strettle as well - he looks like a good prospect.
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this is the final throw of the dice for england, when you have to throw a 35 year old in at centre you know things are getting desperate? As an irish man despite the fact that its always great to beat england but i fear that this world cup will take the shine of the only previous Northern Hemisphere winner of the webb ellis, if england were in irelands group they i believe 100% would not get out of the group regardless of who they came in for, the RFU have alot to answer for, ireland and Newzealand have got it spot on with their structures, englands is probably the worst in the elite of world rugby, i mean when you look at the england bench, i do not believe one of these lads would make the irish training squad of 32 never mind the match 22, seriously lads the changes have to be made to the structures pre world cup so that at least when england bow out they have something to fall back on, the media will take no prisoners similiar to soccer they believe ye are the best and portrat that to the public so getting knocked out in the quarter finals is going to be taken on hard by the media, a few wise head must sit down and sort it out i mean look at EOS in Ireland he calls the shots of who plays when they play when the rest, BOD and Co do not play more than 22 games a year, english players are playing well over 30, english player dont get a break, irish lads get a minimum of 8 weeks without even training to veg out and recover, irish player do not play until mid october, the english have 5-6 games played by then and by the end of the Nov test the irish lads are flying and the english lads are in sick bay.
please copy us as i would like to see the best possible prepared english team try to compete with ireland, cause at the minute and i am not been bigheaded here but it is a mere formality to beat england, 4 years in a row and counting
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France by 15-20 points.
They have a settled squad, a decent coach, great fast aggressive backs, decent defence, and more importantly a GAME PLAN.
I know England have injury worries but Ashton's changing things every game, its ludicrous, theres no pattern no plan, nothings settled, it can't possible work.
We need a whole new approach to how Englands approach International Rugby, we need get rid of Ashton now, we need to start all over again and it'll take years.
I can't beleive all the great work that Woodwood achieved has just been thrown away. England are in a mess right now and i'm just very sad :-(
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I understand that Toby Flood is relatively inexperienced at 10, but I don't think Catt at 35 years of age is the solution, especially with the World Cup just around the corner. Surely Matthew Tait deserves a start. He has come off the bench a couple times in the Six Nations competition, has proven his ability on the 7's circuit, plays his club rugby with Toby Flood and has a long internation career ahead of him. Realistically England can't will the competition, so why not use it to provide Englands youth with some much needed experience? Furthermore, making Mike Catt captain seems like a bit of a slap in the face to other more consistent senior players like Joe Worsley, Josh Lewsey and Mike Tindall! How can a "finge player" like Catt effectively lead and motivate a team that he has not been a part of for the last 12 months? I wish England much luck, but I think they will need more than that if they are to turn over the French.
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Dr Bullet - I knew there'd be one sharp eyed-reader!
Yes I originally wrote consecutive Grand Slams before remembering Scotland's Sean Lamont-inspired 20-16 win first up.
I changed it, but clearly not quick enough.
For those who came later and are wondering what the good Doctor is going on about don't worry, he was right.
And as for the error, it's the rapid-fire nature of these blogs, honest!
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This team i belive will not beat France. It is good to have change and i know that england have left this well to late to try and build a strong squad for there world cup defense but bringing back a 35 year old mike catt is not the answer youth is the answer stuff experince young players can only get experience from game time and these young guys wanting to come thru and represtent there country are not get a chance MIKE CATT is not the answer. The other postion that puzzles me is moving Corry to lock this guy should have been droped a long time ago ashton keeps bringing back old players then why not bring back laurence dallaglio he brings alot more to the table than corry. But a positive the back 3 look dangerous.
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I understand that Toby Flood is relatively inexperienced at 10, but I don't think Catt at 35 years of age is the solution, especially with the World Cup just around the corner. Surely Matthew Tait deserves a start. He has come off the bench a couple times in the Six Nations competition, has proven his ability on the 7's circuit, plays his club rugby with Toby Flood and has a long internation career ahead of him. Realistically England can't will the competition, so why not use it to provide Englands youth with some much needed experience? Furthermore, making Mike Catt captain seems like a bit of a slap in the face to other more consistent senior players like Joe Worsley, Josh Lewsey and Mike Tindall! How can a "finge player" like Catt effectively lead and motivate a team that he has not been a part of for the last 12 months? I wish England much luck, but I think they will need more than that if they are to turn over the French.
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I understand that Toby Flood is relatively inexperienced at 10, but I don't think Catt at 35 years of age is the solution, especially with the World Cup just around the corner. Surely Matthew Tait deserves a start. He has come off the bench a couple times in the Six Nations competition, has proven his ability on the 7's circuit, plays his club rugby with Toby Flood and has a long internation career ahead of him. Realistically England can't will the competition, so why not use it to provide Englands youth with some much needed experience? Furthermore, making Mike Catt captain seems like a bit of a slap in the face to other more consistent senior players like Joe Worsley, Josh Lewsey and Mike Tindall! How can a "finge player" like Catt effectively lead and motivate a team that he has not been a part of for the last 12 months? I wish England much luck, but I think they will need more than that if they are to turn over the French.
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A lot will depend on how the pack - especially the front five - perform. As we saw against Ireland, when the pack was going backwards the opportunities for our outside halves to make ground, either with ball in hand or over the top, were few and far between. If the talented, but internationally inexperienced, Flood has to play most the game on the back-foot, it could be a long afternoon.
But with the wise heads of Catt, Tindall, Robinson & Lewsey in the backline we might be able to steady the French tide. This isn't so much a team for the future as it is one borne out of injury and a need to counter the immediate French assault.
Plus - Lewsey at full-back - where he has always been most effectively utilised in my opinion.
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Sorry Derek I can't agree about Catt and pressure. Back in 2003 he was the man Woody went to against Wales, and also to finish off the Ausies in the final. The Teddy Sherringham of England RU has the brain to steady the ship. Hopefully its a time to break some shackles, after all we can't be worse than against Ireland.
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Players to bring back
Guscott 41
Brian Moore 43
Martin Johnson 36
Rory Underwood 43
Tony Underwood 38
Neil Back 38
Rob Andrew 44
Jason Leonard 38
Matt Dawson 35, a mere man child
Will Carling 42
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I'm really glad to see Catt get the captaincy. I think he'll be the wise head on Flood's young shoulders that will help ensure he performs as well as he can.
I think this is a far better team that the one beaten by Ireland and I think we'll give the French a good match. I don't think come full time there'll be more than 5 points between the teams.
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What the hell is going on here?
We're bringing in a 35 year-old when there is still pure talent not being given game time, even though the 6N is long gone.
And Ashton is seriously making the statement that Corry is one of the top second rows in English Rugby? That tells a story.
The only good thing from this team is the back row which should provide much more in the way of ball carrying. Also, glad to see Strettle retained.
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* 5.
* At 02:40 PM on 06 Mar 2007,
* DrBullet wrote:
yes they have, a distant memory
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We're going to get battered, make no mistake. Rees aside the pack is painfully slow, in fact bar the back three...well the wings there is little to no pace in the side at all and we can't even guarentee some humiliation saving 3 pointers. How anyone can claim that this team is twice as good as the one that played in Dublin is beyond me! Absolutley bonkers.
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Theres no denying England are in a very big mess right now but its these times where we need to dig deep and find our form that took us to the World Cup Victory!
The upcoming match with France could very easily be a win for England as Jason Robinson is a massive threat!
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Good lord. Not one single player would make the french 15. Come to think of it, nor would they make the 22. I doubt that more than 3 or 4 would make the French 40 man squad either.
If they don't get hammered it will be a miracle.
How the might have fallen
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Now I'm worried ..... as a biased Wasp's fan I've been saying all season that Rees is the best no. 7 this country has produced for ages. I just hope he can live up to all the hype I've given him:-)
Good luck Tom.
Also even though again I'm biased I'd be the first to say that Phil Vickery has been nowhere near his best this year, but s*d's law being what it is he really looked like being somewhere near it on Sunday before going off. (I'd like to say more about the incident, but like the ref I have to say I didn't see anything)
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Matthew in posting 6!!!
Here we go again digging up the club v country debate.
Perhaps you would have prefered them all to have the weekend off to go skiing!!!!!
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Post N0 7
Shame on you, betting against England in its time of need!
In fact, I'm going to do the opposite and bet 拢20 on England to beat France.
Now I know this is a long shot, (that's how to get the best odds) but if Ashton wanted to pick ball carriers to make the hard yards, clean the ball out quickly and then spin it wide to the strike runners to create mayhem, then this is the team to pick, with 5 back row players in the back five of the pack and robinson, Lewsey and Strettle in the back three with good distributors in between.
I don't expect England to win, but I do expect this team to give it a serious lash...and it could be fun to watch.
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Raging Bull? Phil Vickery hasn't been a raging bull since the World Cup. I think people are worrying too much about Corry at lock. He's more suited to lock than the back row in my view. Moving him into the engine room frees up Easter to pick up and drive from the scrum. Palmer will presumably be main line out jumper, with Corry and Easter sharing the rest. England throw to Corry a lot when he's at 8 anyway, and Easter is one of the highest ranked for number of takes in the Premiership.
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Allez la France.
Ashton should be reported to Age Concern.
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Reference to KENBOSS #22.
couldn`t agree with u more about systems - We have it spot on as do NZ .... look at what Graham Henry has done with his players - none of them can play for first 9 or 10 weeks of Super 14.......what are they doing ..... lying on beaches, relaxing etc. Come World Cup time, most NZ players will probably have played no more than 15 or so games.....English players ....probably nearing 40. The RFU must wake up and smell the roses.. Club v Country is NOT the way to go. I feel sorry for Ashton, his hands are tied. Still I remember Ireland back in 2000 getting thrashed by England by 50 points or so....next game we made 10 changes with 7 new Caps...and beat a very good Scottish side for the first time in about 12 years 44-22.
History will repeat itself perhaps on Sunday...fresh blood.....fresh energy.
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Reference to KENBOSS #22.
couldn`t agree with u more about systems - We have it spot on as do NZ .... look at what Graham Henry has done with his players - none of them can play for first 9 or 10 weeks of Super 14.......what are they doing ..... lying on beaches, relaxing etc. Come World Cup time, most NZ players will probably have played no more than 15 or so games.....English players ....probably nearing 40. The RFU must wake up and smell the roses.. Club v Country is NOT the way to go. I feel sorry for Ashton, his hands are tied. Still I remember Ireland back in 2000 getting thrashed by England by 50 points or so....next game we made 10 changes with 7 new Caps...and beat a very good Scottish side for the first time in about 12 years 44-22.
History will repeat itself perhaps on Sunday...fresh blood.....fresh energy.
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It's a great shame that Farrell, Wilkinson and Vickery are out of the game. Yes, all three aren't on dazzling form, but you feel at ease with wilko kicking and controling the game, you feel at ease to know that you have a bull for a captain.
I'm really excited about our back three in the scrum and in the backs; finally some flair and a sniper in my old mate Tom Rees. Can't wait to see it. I have to admit the ball is in the French court, if the French turn up, they could win comfortably, if not England could be in with a great chance. At this stage I'm hoping England can just give a good performance. And I'm praying Flood can prove me wrong because I really don't rate him.
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* 5.
* At 02:40 PM on 06 Mar 2007,
* DrBullet wrote:
Consecutive Grans Slams??
Has everyone forgotten that Scotland beat France last year?!
Doesn't the article say Consecutive titles? Has it been changed since?
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the country vs club debate is key here
your out a captain and a legend cause they played at the weekend, rugbys not like soccer, you need time to recoup, you can not play every weekend
Country is top, deal with it.
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england are clutching at straws in my opinion now,maybe a more fitting expression would be scraping the bottom of the barrel.mike catt! come back laurence,all is forgiven.
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ha ha
and you thought andy robinson selected bad sides !
if france feel like it they could win by 50 points
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I think England lacked leadership and decision making against Italy & Ireland and I think Catt, despite a few weaknesses, is probably what we need. If the pack can get us going forward for stages of the game then Catt might be the guy to at last get the ball out to the wing and release the aces up our sleeves in Strettle and JR. Catt can throw the missed passed and occasionally bypass Tins ...so the wingers can get the ball.
Hope back row with have a bit of pace about it and good to see Palmer in, not sure Corry is best choice for lock. Grewcock and Palmer would have been a fearsome combo (I thought DG's yellow card v Ire was wrong).
We'll probably lose but looking forward to a bit more sharpness up front and a chance to scream out once our wingers get the ball in space.
Glad Ashton's no afraid to change things but we're running out of time for the RWC!
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I'm a big fan of BA, but still can't help thinking we should be going for youth now and building for this WC and beyond. Young players can only gain from playing - even if the French are on course for a grand slam.
I like the idea of putting Martin Corry in the 2nd row and the back row possesses a pacey menance about it. It is in the backs I would like to have seen Tait in the mix instead of Tindall whose ball skills are just not up to it. It is much of a muchness betwen Flood and Geraghty although maybe the form man Geraghty ought to have been given the nod?
France to win, sadly but not by as much as has been suggested (10 points).
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Hammers - what have you been smoking mate???? You have JR as a great threat, yeah he is in some situations but this is 2007 not 2003; take off the rose tinted specs!!! The whole bloody french tam from 1-22 is a threat!!!!
The very best of luck to Tom Rees - he's a world star in the making I reckon.
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I really like the forwards. Great to see Palmer, just a bit of a shame Borthwick is injured as those two should be Englands 2nd Row pairing. Also like having Rees in the back row. I can't help but think that as has been the case for so many years our backs (with Jonny being the exception) are going to rely on the forwards to get the job done. Unfortunately our pack are still 3 or 4 years away from being good enough to bail our consistently poor backline out
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i am very worried by this team i must admit, i hope it proves me wrong but i feel flood is not ready yet...catt is too slow!
corry in at second row is a bit scary aswell...with that in mind i am however optimistic by having strettle and robinson on the wings, the potential to be very exciting. would have preffered tait in at centre.
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Unfortunately I can't see England winning this one. In fact I can see them being on the wrong end of another record loss. As an Irish man I will have my fingers and toes cross for England.
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So England have 250.000 registered rugby players and they pick a national side with a lock who's only a club no.8, a no.8 who is also a club journeyman no.8, a kid at fly half who is part of a club side inches off the bottom of the premiership (confidence is important to a no. 10). Add on a one-dimensional outside centre, a geriatric at inside centre, one wing whose pace left him a while ago, another wing who has the pace but is very green and........... well you get the message
france will be ahead by 40 points before they get bored
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You have to wonder why the Catt is good enough now when he hasn't been for the past 5(?) years.
If it's the paucity of the alternatives, then I guess it's right.
(Which goes to show that you can never write Beckham out. Of the football team. Although now I think about it....)
So, OK.
But Corry at 4? What happened to the stated intention to play players in their club position? I know he's slow and can't play in the back row, but is this qualification for the second? And it's not as if we're short of options at 4 and 5, so this is an unncessary gamble.
All the excitement from game one seems to have gone: new captain, old captain fighting for pride, JW and JR back, Farrell in.
Read it and weep, as John Madden used to say.
Tearfully,
Tod
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Playing Corry and Lock is astonishing, what a ridiculus descision, England mightened have the players but thats just taking the piss.
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"France by 15-20 points.
They have a settled squad, a decent coach, great fast aggressive backs, decent defence, and more importantly a GAME PLAN.
I know England have injury worries but Ashton's changing things every game, its ludicrous, theres no pattern no plan, nothings settled, it can't possible work.
We need a whole new approach to how Englands approach International Rugby, we need get rid of Ashton now, we need to start all over again and it'll take years.
I can't beleive all the great work that Woodwood achieved has just been thrown away. England are in a mess right now and i'm just very sad :-(
"
As far as I am concerned this is the best team England has ATM. I think its prettyu funny aswell how you know complain about Brian Ashton changing things up too much when under Andy Robinson you complained of lack of change.
When in the hell are english fans going to stop being such total douchebags and actually get behind there national team.
Let Ashton do his thing and eventually you'll start winning games.
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Ashton is just handeling the cards that are dealt to him. Although we are miles away from being world beaters at least a takes decicive , balanced decisions on selection. We need to unearth 4-5 new players to compete in the world cup. Strettle looks like he could be one.
We can't suddenly become world beaters, but Ashton is a breath of fresh air. Lets get behind him. where we were in November was worse than this
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England Rugby is an absolute joke. We have the players but how can they perform if they are working with a structure that is totally useless? However, I think that alot of unfair critism has been written about Ashton and England on these posts. The selection is alot more exciting than it was aganist Ireland at Croke Park, and that is a good thing. Having two recognised kickers is something England have longed after for ages. I do think France are 80/20 favourites- but remember: the french were beaten at Murrayfield last year. Nobody including myself , gave Scotland a sniff of a chance but they pulled it off! So anything is possible.
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This could get really embarrassing.
I doubt that this team could beat most GP sides let alone a decent international side. Lets hope that the 鈥渞ight鈥 French team turn up.
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too much emphasis is placed on age...
having said that, a good performance from catt (36 in sept) could end the international career of farrell (32 in may, unproven and a lot of miles/injuries on the clock)
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Easter? Corry at lock? Is this really our best option?
If Corry is too slow or not explosive enough for 8 he shouldn't be in the squad at all. Chris Jones must feel hard done by, he is surely the better athlete?
And if you have to bring in someone to that crucial position of 8, what about someone with experience like Joe Worsley?
He will play 8 for Wasps and is a hardened England campaigner. You could then have Lund and Rees at 6 and 7 gallavanting around killing ball- they'd be everywhere. It also leaves the inexperienced guy on the bench. Probably for the best.
Strangely, it all has a touch of the Robinson about this selection- great intentions but some biting errors.
Watch out for Heymans, he'll have a field day.
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The straws we are clutching are all we currently have. We need athleticism in the pack and mobility - remember Andy Ripley.? We also need some players who will give a bit of a fight for the shirt- sadly lacking in Ireland. Brian has picked the best available but we play too many games and too much "up your jumper don't lose " club rugby. I should know I watch Saints!! Toby Flood is a prospect as is Strettle and hopefully we'll find the pack to go with a half decent back division.
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Personally I'm nervous and anticipate watching for most of the game behind the sofa.
The biggest suprise for me was the selection of Corry at lock...does anyone know when he played there last? Or why he has been selected there?
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Shame to Lund dropped as has played well but appreciate BA's interest in developing explosive (All Black soundbite) back row speed, and Rees appears to fit the bill. Easter excellent coice, great offloading the ball. Front row appears to be strong in set piece but limited in loose. Flood worries me - any fly half who is playing against Betson would be - however he is playing with an unfamiliar back row/scrum half and inside center! If we're going gung-ho then pick Shane Geraghty who will at least have comfort og knowing Catty etc. LEWSEY is not a full back!!! Great athlete, i'm a huge fan, but a full back must be able to kick which he cannot. Cueto at fback, lewsey for strettle who drops to bench. Fingers crossed
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At first glance it would seem that it is all doom and gloom. However after looking at the combinations this 'new team' of ashtons has more balance and structure than that against ireland.
Front row, More explosive power to exert at set piece to unstable the french pack.
Second row good ball carries and athletic lineout operators.
Back row, all good around the park and a recongnised ball carrier.
Half backs - could be a problem but wilkinson has never been the best distributor and with the inclusion of catt at inside centre this develops the passing and kicking game options that england have and takes pressure off Ellis and Flood, Ellis kicking game needs to improve.
Centres - finess and brut strength lacks pass though.
Back three - i'am exicited about these they will need pace and aggression to contain the french outside backs.
To beat france we will nees to be disciplined and annoy them off the park. Kick the penalties and hope for some good fortune. This team on paper is defensive lets hope it works.
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IMHO I think that the inclusion of Catty is a fine call given the circumstances, I have watched him marshal London Irish to some fine performances both last season and this. He has experience and nous, which you must have in either the 10 or 12 position. This is not a bad team at all with plenty of talent and experience that will only be undone by a lack of training time together and the loss of a guaranteed 12-15 points from the Jonny's boot. For all those who have criticised Ashton's selections, I would ask what alternatives does he have given the injuries and farcical lack of training time that he gets with the players under the current club/country setup?
Always a shame to write your team off, have some balls and put your 拢50 on Eng to win (probably get better odds anyway)!
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Good that Ashton is going to change things around. He has seen the weakness and is addressing them, he has learnt from the experiences against Ireland. This is something that Andrew Robinson never seemed to do.
Hopeful with a few faster guys in the forwards we can actually compete for ball ensuring momentum on the attack and slowing down the re-cycling of the ball from the French.
Big test for Flood with Catt acting as a steadying hand as per World Cup 2003 for Jonny. I think the changes will spring a few surprises on the French, but overall they will adapt and have the experinced players and belief to win.
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Every time we see a new team it breeds some strange optimisim.
It's a team borne out of desperation, it's not changes for change sake. He has no choice. If you keep moving the team, you'll make things worse, not better. Combinations take time to grow, to become instinctive.
You blood new players in small numbers, with experience on the bench and around them, better still, you bring them in when the game is done and dusted, you don'y throw them in against France.
How many new players have been cruficied playing for england in the last 3 years, promising players, heaped with too much pressure, lamented by the press for mistakes.
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How this is not a club v country debate is unfathomable to me.
If there had been no club games between the six nations games then the players wouldnt have been injured in them FACT.
The six nations should be played over consecutive weekends then the debate is nullified and by the way in my opinion,the premiership should also continue to be played to get some of the fringe players game time.Its daft them sitting about or being loaned to clubs in lower leagues to get games.How will they develop?
On the opposite side of the argument I understand there was no club rugby over the Ireland v England international weekend.
Finally one of the main problems in Ireland was the lack of pace in the centre. So what do we do we bring in more pace. Er No we dont-we bring in Mike Catt who as I remember doesnt do pressure too well either.
Ok they are our guys but what do Tait(who has pace) and Noon(who has more pace than Tindall) have to do?
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Why play Flood if picking Catt?
Surely Geraghty would be a better option as
a) he's bang on form and
b) he plays with Catt week in week out
Playing together all the time really does add new dimensions to people's play - look at Ireland with the Leinster backs and predominatly Munster pack.
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Englands midfield defence is wide open for the silky Jauzion and the dynamic Marty, not to mention the abrasive Skrela. Surely Catt and Flood will be targeted all game! And there is absolutely nothing on the bench to get excited about. Strettle is clearly a very good player, but like any other winger he must have some sort of space to work with made for him by pacy centers!?
France are unrelenting, so incredibly powerful going forward. And most importantly, they make all the correct tactical decisions. Always taking the points when on offer. A superb set of players gloriously honed into an uncompromising team, who will surely dominate England in every area.
It is Christmas day in France on Saturday!!
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I think England will come third in this game! Even the referee has a better chance of causing an upset!
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While this is a lot of tinkering, i think it is an ok team. I would rather see a more dynamic back rower than Easter picked though - forrester for example. Corry isn't a world class second row and if you want better ball carrying and athleticism in your 2nd row then we should be picking the ever excellent Chris Jones. Good for Catt, but perhaps it would have been more sensible to play his club mate gerraghty.....they have a better understanding than he will with the equally inexperienced Flood
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What i don't get is why matthew tait never gets his chance in the centre. I don't mind having Mike Catt and Mike Tindall in the team, as they are both quality players, but its not exactly building for the future. Matt Tait for England centre i reckon. He has the pace, vision, and his tackling has improved greatly since last season. He looks like a proper professional now.
Nice to see different pack aswell. This one could pose some problems, as we actually have pace and strength combined.
finally!
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I was one of those urging Ashton not to panic but actually, this has cheered me up. I think it's worth throwing the French a curve ball at this stage. Give Laporte something to think about. Catt is a bright guy, the perfect captain in his mature years, and if anyone can bring the best out of our back three, he can. Corry as a lock worries me, and I'd rather have Geraghty than Flood but otherwise, I like it. The pack were hopeless in the last two games, Vickery wasn't back to his best, Wilko needs more games and Farrell hasn't impressed so, yeah, let's ave em. On paper France should win easily but it's being played on very squidgy turf, not paper. Can't wait!
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Great to see Mike Catt is back in the line up. A wonderfully inspirational player and the captaincy shall not be misplaced. Looks like a brave effort from Ashton, all the new caps. Hope it works out for him. He's a good coach and shall have a bright future with England, if given the chance.
Winning saturday, which I think England have every chance of, will give us (Ireland) and yourselves a chance of going for the Championship and spoiling the party for the arrogent French. Come on England!!!
Oh! I forgot we gotta get past the Scots and the Italians first!!
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Giving Catt the captaincy, when he wasn't even selected at the start of the 6 Nations, to me is mad.
We all seem to have forgotten that Corry was really just a sacificial lamb at the end of the Robinson era, and his selection at lock is a good move.
And I really don't rate Nick Easter that highly. James Haskell should have got the nod at 6, putting the more experienced Worsley at 8.
I would've gambled on Sheridan too, simply because I think he'll do more psychological damage to the French than Payne will.
Oh and Geraghty ahead of Flood. Flood isn't very good really.
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Picking players in form? What ever next. I hope Ashtons adventure gets the reward it deserves. The sooner England centrally contract the squad, the sooner we can look forward to regaining Northern hemisphere dominance.
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I'd have thought some of you might have liked that I change the team after we were thumped by Ireland. You are all dismissing Mike Catt, can any of you name me a better 12 at the moment? And as for Martin Corry, I would have dropped him but Steve Borthwick got injured for Bath at the weekend, and I wanted to retain some experience in the front row. Mat Tait would also have been brought in if Andy Farrell was still fit, but the French would have been licking their lips at Flood, Catt, Tait, so I decided to keep Tins in. He also has the leadership qualities as well.
I hope this has answered your questions.
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Well I wasn't surprised that neither Vickery or Wilkinson or Farrell or Borthwick could make it. We have the RFU to thank for that. I guess Ashton has selected probably the best team he can under the circumstances.
Catt at 12 will be an experienced hand outside a raw Flood at 10, and Ellis at 9 has a few caps too, that is good.
Catt isnt the biggest so a bit of muscle outside him in Tindall is a good balance for the centres, and Tait will probably come in later to stretch his legs.
If I was the French I would be trying to target some of Catts long passes, I expect them to send Jauzion and co straight up englands 10/12 channel too. If I was England I would try and frustrate the French by slowing their ball down mixed with some good tactical kicking. Easier said than done i know!!
by the way, whatever happened to Stuart Abbot, Olly Barkley and Anthony Allen? they are all good inside centres, they can't all be injured?
looking forward to a great game!!
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The England team needed changing from the ireland game, but did it need this much?
Freshwater was poor but atleast can scrummage a bit - not sure about Payne. Julian White in for The KO'd Vickery was always going to happen but can someone tell me when the apparent best scrummaging tight head we've got, actually did just that??As soon as Matt Stevens is back the better.
Corry to lock.......hmmm what about Kay & Jones to name a few? Bravo to Palmer and Rees. Worsel provides a bit of mongrel and wont let you down. Still not convinced about Easter(please prove me wrong)great off loader but has all the pace of Corry. Hurry up Dan Ward-Smith. As for the backs...............well I played in the forwards for 20 years so will leave that to the piano players to debate.
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If England want to lay the foundations for the future just get rid of the liability that is Wilkinson. He's hyped as the complete fly-half, which he isn't. His kicking through the H's is second to none but from hand it leaves a lot to be desired. He his injury prone beyond belief which means constant changes are foisted on the team.
What can you say about Farrell? I like the player and he has great potential but the guy has back problems stemming from being in the car too much!! WTF is that all about?!!
Corry. Oh no. Its carry on Corry!! Donkey par-excellence. Useless with ball in hand or with ball anywhere. His inclusion defies rationale. Against the AB's..he'd be mince-meat in 30 minutes flat.
I give up in despair.
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It's not Ashton's fault we're in a mess. It's AR's failure to develop the team in the last couple of years and the ridiculous club/country row that hopefully will be resolved in the summer (if the RFU is to be believed). The team isn't too bad, but Tait at outside centre with the selected back three would have been good. Glad to see Lewsey at full back, some of you seem to have forgotten his magnificent performance against South Africa in the Autumn. Corry at lock is a puzzle, could have gone for Brown or Jones. The props are probably the best we have considering the injuries. Flood at fly half is a worry, due to inexperience. Rees is ace, but raw. Catt at inside centre is ok, because Allen is to inexperienced. Will be massively supporting England, but can't see a win since too many new combinations. At least want to see us have a go and for once see the Twickenham crowd get behind their team if things aren't going well!!!
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Slightly off the point, but when - in his column - did Jeremy Guscott get the tag-line 'Legendary England Centre'. It seems to me that one of English Rugby's greatest errors is to constantly look to the past not just in selection, but in comment, style of play, ambition, who runs the show, ideas, everything. The only man who seemed to want to buck this trend - odious as he was - was Clive Woodward.
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I've been trying to work out england's injury/players returning from injury list:
thompson, sheridan, vickory, stevens, borthwick, hill, moody, dan ward-smith
wilkinson, hodgeson, farell, morgan, balshaw
i may have missed some out or some of those may be actually fit and not selected but it seems insane to me that we have that sort of length of injury list, for all that is said about ireland, if they had that many players injured they would be absolutely butchered. how can we hope to build a team when that many players are out injured!?
can only assume it is because of the seemingly huge number of games out players are playing. something needs to be done!
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I wouldn't write off England's chances of winning for several reasons:
1) This is Twickenham where England always seem to find an extra gear - remember the All Blacks game in Nov 05 when they v nearly won
2) I remember the last time Mike Catt played against the French. England were losing 21 - 3 at half time when he came on and turned the game around, and they only narrowly lost in the end.
3) With the French you never know, remember the Scotland game last year when no one gave the Scots a chance!
So...probably the French will win, but I won't place any bets!!
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i think this is a massive mistake by ashton, the one thing i hate more than watching england win the 6 nations is watching france do it, i really do hope england win, but if the french are on song im afraid its going to be an absolute drubbing for england
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I think that Ashton has made some good selections although i think that the midfield could be a problem. I think a pacey no13 could thrive of the good disrubution of Catt. So i would out of the squad of played altough my personal opinion is that Dan Hipkiss of Leicster is the answer in this position as he has been playing great for Leicster this season.
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For me this is a worrying looking teamsheet for any England fan. But then so is every team England seem to put out. It's all well and good to be putting in inexperienced players but you have to fear for them against a rampaging French team. Still I expect them to be better than England were in Croke park. I think White for Vickery and Catt for Farrell strengthens the team, but there is no way I can see them winning. Just as I did before the Ireland game you look at the england team and think how many would make the french side? You would think Wilkinson if fit probably but after that i'm afraid maybe robinson but probably not. It doesn't bode well for the men in white. Expect this game to be over with 20 mins to play.
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Well done to RFU & Clubs!!
Between them they are responsible for our key players being missing. You may as well tie the Blue,White and Red of France on the trophy now.
Why can't they figure out to stop domestic games during crucial international periods. Whats next! Are we going to fly players home for weekend so they can play during the world cup!!!
If this is what happens on "REST" weekends why bother, lets play straight through. O thats right the 主播大秀 want to show the FA Cup so we can't!! Heaven forbid that Rugby gets in the way of football.
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Toby Flood is an awful player.
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#22 You're a arrogant fool what goes around comes around England will sort themselves out in time and be back where they belong at the heart of elite rugby unlike your flash in the pan bunch of no hopers.I'm telling you you're not even coming out of your WC group as France are way better and the Argies will destroy your paperweight pack!!
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get some more youth in the team..mike cat..?are you serious..what about aiming forthe future? ...aiming for a maming!
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Good choice in Catt.
When is Dallaglio going to come back now... We need him
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What happened to Ashton's stated intention of not picking players out of position?
First we had Easter picked on the flank - near enough. But Corry in the 2nd row? Please!
He's just lost any tolerance being extended towards him because of an horrendous injury list
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As a season ticket holder I've seen Mike Catt voted man of the match on regular occaisons for London Irish this and last season. OK Irish haven't been doing as well this season, but Catt when he's played has been influential in guiding young players. The club captaincy has also given him fresh confidence in his own ability.
All I can say is I've rarely seen a decent report on a London Irish match on the 主播大秀 website (or TV or radiio) so it's no surprise that this blog is so anti-Catt.
Catt has to play if England are to bring the inexperienced talents of Flood or Gerahty into International rugby.
If Wilko was fit, Catt wouldn't need to play. Still I'd like to see Tait at #13.
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Good grief...
Surely there must be some young players waiting in the wings to play for England....? If there are then selecting Catt must be a kick in the teeth to them. If not, then ... what is wrong with rugby in this country?
Maybe Bracken could hang up his ice skates and come and help ... or the other celebrity panel host, dancer, chef ...what's his name?...Matt somebody or other.
I'm not sure if looking backwards to bring these guys in is really the forward thinking thing to do for English rugby. Catt's defence is dodgy at the best of times and he never had much presence when he played. Didn't an All Black once run over him ..? ( I'd never seen a catt as flat as that)
This certainly is an England team held together by brown paper and sticky-back tape. I see them limping and hobbling along to a serious defeat and much embarrassment. Please would someone put them out of their misery....
The French will be having their Roast Beef under done with loads of vegetables...Oh dear.
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This is as weak looking an England team as I can remember. Before the tournament, I fancied England's big result would be a win against France. It seems inconceivable at the moment. England have to ditch the old boys and pick a young team for the future. They've got no hope in the WC or 6 nations for a couple of yars, so they've got nothing to lose.
They should have started rebuilding in the 2004 6 Nations, then they might have been in with a good shout again by now.
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I don鈥檛 think I have ever seen such a wholesale change in the structure of a team. A journalist amongst you will no doubt be reviewing old team sheets to see when the last culling took place.
If the goal is forging a team for the world cup, this is probably a good test for the inexperienced. If it鈥檚 a team to beat France? - Ireland showed us two things other than pure ability that really count, playing together for 3 years, and controlled passion. It鈥檚 hard to be effectively passionate when you鈥檙e running out for the first time.
Hit 鈥榚m early, hit 鈥榚m hard and just don鈥檛 stop. If it can be done, if value can be gained from this shake up, Twickenham is the right place and its too late to worry about losing.
I am amazed not to see Haskell and Jones on the bench.
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I think Corry should always have been a lock, but now he is too slow even for that position.
One thing that simply baffles me, is the constant calls from the media to play White. Does anyone actually watch the game, the man is simply abject in every facet of rugby union bar the scrum, and even then, he only looks good when he can overpower someone, in recent times when he has come up against the Argies, the Boks or the ABs he has been blown away.
I am a London irish fan, but I am not sure about the selection of Catt. Looking to the future, I would include a midfield of Allen and Tait, and give the second half to Geraghty to show what he can do.
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Post 95:Pete
Tut tut.
Nevertheless, france gotta be worth 拢100 by 20 points.
Sadly, i fear Rob andrews much celebrated entrance as the saviour of elite rugby at RFU HQ has so far resulted in no changes. I'm quite sure Robinson is laughing his *** off. Does anyone seriously believe that Ashton is doing a better job than Robinson did.
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As much as I am unhappy with the selection of Corry in at second row, i believe it is to cover the massive loss of experience (Vickery and Grewcock). The tight five is offered a visible leader, which is something Chris Jones - who is a better lock, does not offer.
The scrum is good, although its a shame that Sheridan and Stevens (the best prop in england) have been overlooked, although this is mainly due to fitness.
Our back row has a lot of potential. It is the most mobile it has been for a while and also bears a lot of firepower. Rees is a running machine and like Easter will be hungry to prove his worth. Worsely, who has been the pick of the England forwards so far in the 6 nations is still going to be his ever present self, an immense carrier of the ball, he will be supported by Easter who is also great in this role.
Toby Flood has been picked through necessity, although it is interesting the BA didnt select Geraghty, who is used to playing with Catt. I do feel sorry for whoever is wearing the 10 shirt though, not only do they have fill JW's boots, but they have to cope with the likes of Sabastien Chabal running at them like a madman.
I think that there were two options for Ashton in the centres, either Farrel and Tait, or Catt and Tindall. Because Farrel is injured he is forced to go with the in form London Irish centre, who i am sure will not disappoint. It is also highly possible that the Farrel/Tait pairing will be made apparent against the Welsh.
Our greatest strenght is in the back three, who are all immensely threatening and talented. However it will be down to the back row to win this game, which i believe they can.
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Come on chaps, this excitement is all a bit silly. Let's raise the white flag against France with a bit of dignity, safe in the knowledge that our good man Strettle will have 'em quaking come October.
Bravo!
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I note that there is no player-by-player analysis of the French team in comments so far - only positive (some evidentially argued but often wishful in tone) or negative (some empirically supported but mostly based on a priori bias) comments about Ashton's selection for the game against France.
I would suggest this betrays, assuming this is representative, an introspective tendency that is a major contributing factor to England's recent performance. England need to focus on each game, not so much as a personal test for each player (selection pressure can be useful but not at all times and never by itself), but more as a real encounter, as a team, with a real adversary with specific and unique characteristics which they must take respond to and utilize to their advantage. I would not agree that most of the players picked thus far would not have been selected by the French team, as I don't see that individual ability is the main problem. Confidence is what is lacking first and foremost, and when it is, we tend to look inwards and lose sight of the adversary. This likely leads to further poor performance, subsequent self-critiquing, and the cycle goes on.
What is needed to return to confidence? As with life: a number of things. Operational leadership: in this case, on the field of play. Catt, though probably not a long term (i.e. WC) option), may serve to steady the boat and inject some self-belief. Wise counsel: in this case, off the field directorship and guidance. The invective of some quarters aside (e.g. from previous England players, press, fans), it seems to me Ashton is bringing mature leadership by making his own decisions. Following these first two: team cohesion, i.e. players are more likely to play naturally and well if they see and trust their leaders. Finally: results. These will come when these three generate the self-belief and team ethic without which no team, however talented, will win consistently (lest we forget the foundation of the All Blacks team: not skill routines but psychological strength).
Longer term, England will remain in need of consistent on-field leadership, and skilled management that directs the focus away from themselves as players, towards their teammates and towards the opposition.
The battle is primarily for confidence. In my assessment, in difficult circumstances (i.e. injuries and inconsistent field leadership) Ashton is going in the right direction. It remains to be seen if there is leadership on the field long term. The selected team should think less about the fact that they have been picked and more about who they are playing.
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kenboss #22, what a ridiculous post.
When did you last win the World Cup?
When did you last win the Grand Slam?
Oh wait, thats right, your team cannot handle the big occasion, as seen by the chokers at Croker.
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I cant believe no one is giving England a chance!!! At Twickenham!!! The lads will be fired up like there's no tomorrow, they know it's make or break time. The French are getting cocky, well Thomas Castaignede is getting cocky, and that hasnt been happening in a while, in fact never has happened before playing England, so there's a big opportunity for creating the major upset of the tournament!!!
I'm amazed at the general resignation, so not English...
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No new structure equals the injuries we have seen Hope the clubs are happy - not that i blame them too much. Robinson, Ashton any other mug... Can't this club country think get sorted? We will get mullered. No recognised flyhalf to france's 2 or 3. Flood will be Betsen food. Pack might be able to cope. Corry is a strange one but might work. Vickery might not be such a big loss. If Catt gets some decent ball he could release a talented backline. How many of this team will we see in the RWC?
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As has already been said, Catt straight in as captain? What the hell is going on. In any club team I played in that decision alone would demoralise the regular players. Corry at lock? Good grief! I don't know if I will have the stomach to watch the game, France must be laughting their socks off. If the point of all this nonsence was too get the French so laid back that they don't even get off the coach, then we are truly grasping at straws. I am horrified by the prospect of getting another record stuffing.
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Things look a bit confusing for England at the moment.I dont think itll get any better for a long way.
This is the result of England solely wishing to win.Whether it be win ugly or drop goal their way to victory,this is not the way to build a solid team which England should be focusing on expanding their game.Their set pieces and building a cohesive unit that is able to adapt to overcome whatever opposition is put in front.
England need time to establish a good team.Its not done over a short period.I believe they also need to adopt a new mind set about how they play the game.They need to update and get out of the 2003 mentality.This win at all costs mentality leads to the confusion that England is.
Im all for winning but not at the expense of long term goals which is yet be seen.Winning for England used to be predictable,now its hardly possible.
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it doesnt matter who you put in, the forwards are too slow, cant pass, the backs have no idea how to run angles,pass flat along the line to bring runners on, some of the backs are good sevens players like tait but no idea at 15 aside, strettle is far too light for the modern game. i have never seen such a disjointed team for many a year and so many overrated players. we will get pasted on saturday. farrell got a lot of stick but at least he can pass and has the vision. with these players we have the potential to be poor for many years to come
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Even though I agree with many of the above comments and believe England will lose at the weekend against France I don't see why so many people are criticising Ashtons decisions. How else is he going to begin to build a decent team without taking a few risks by introducing young players and shuffling people about?
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As far as I'm concerned I feel it's a very capable and quality side. I am over the moon that finally Tim Payne, Tom Palmer and Tom Rees have been given the chance to show what they can do Palmer and Rees have been two of the best forwards in the premiership and Payne should have been first choice Loose-head from the start of the tournament. I am also confident in Toby Flood, people are saying he is an over-rated player and I agree however he is a quality player and Mike Catt is the perfect man to line up next to a young fly-half against Serge Betsen he has done it a million times over for Wilko and there is no reason why he cannot do it for Flood he is in the form of his life and is the perfect choice for a stand-in captain. the back-line looks promising, I feel that Tindall will work well off Catt and with Jason Robinson, Dave Strettle and Josh Lewsey waiting to get their class arts of finishing into action if you think about the talent in the back line with Catt running the show I don't see why people should be worrying so much. I know England will be going in as under-dogs in this game now we have lost two most influential players but I can see England pulling off something fantastic given the right motivation from the crowd and critics.
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From a French point of view, all these pessimistic comments are startling. Yes England has played poorly thus far but a game in Twickenham has never been easy for the French, except in the 80's. All you guys seem to think the game is lost long before it is played (except for the odd Irish fan who desperately hopes that the English can achieve what his own team could not do). To me, your team seems much better than the one that showed up(?)in Croke Park. All these injuries may be a blessing in disguise. At the moment JW, Vickery, Farrell, Chuter, Corry, Freshwater, Grewcock do not have the quality to appear in the English team. It is true that very few, if any, English players could make it in the French team. But this is not what a team is about. We are not talking individual sport, as tennis or golf. Besides the basic skills (and the English still have plenty) a team is about pride, commitment, solidarity, desire, humility. This being said, I agree BA should bring in more young guys, blood the Ciprianis instead of going for the older Catts. Sunday, as usual, victory will choose the team that desires it most.
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TO Post 109 when will you ever win it again when your Clubs rule your Country,as someone who finds it very interesting that England have 148,000 registered players to Scotlands and Irelands 9,000 and 18,000,get a life and enjoy it.
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It depends on which French team shows up. Most important is that this is a French team of two halves; Wales shot out to a big lead in minutes while Ireland commanded until the last few minutes. Laporte in case nobody has been reading the papers has constantly changed his starters and views this competition as a mere dress rehearsal for the big event. England could easily win though not by much, even with a weakened side, as the enigmatic French manager continues his chess game. By the way if you follow the Top 16 you can only imagine how much better the French team could be without a pile of injured internationals.
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the england nightmare continues-catt was rubbish first time round,he cannot tackle at this level...
what is it with corry no one has the courage to drop him-he cannot do it at this level at no8 what chance has he in the second row.....
ENGLAND WILL LOSE BY A RECORD MARGIN AT HOME.....
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They'll get creamed
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the england nightmare continues-catt was rubbish first time round,he cannot tackle at this level...
what is it with corry no one has the courage to drop him-he cannot do it at this level at no8 what chance has he in the second row.....
ENGLAND WILL LOSE BY A RECORD MARGIN AT HOME.....
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In fact I鈥檓 going to have 拢50 on France +20
You're on mate. This team has much more potential than most whingers here appreciate. I think we are on the way to at least putting up a creditable performance in the world cup.
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The lack of rest last weekend is only so much of an excuse. So if they'd had the week off a few key players would be fit but the overall team would still be average.
A structured season, GP, HC, 6N would help.
But the key is the style of rugby played in the GP, with teams desperate to grind out a win and survive another season. That and the clubs desire to overpay for aging Southern Hemisphere stars collecting a pension. It might fill seats but it doesn't help English Rugby.
Clubs vs Country runs much deeper than rest weekends.
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So, Ashton appears to be looking to the future - by passing off two of the form forwards in the country - Alex Brown and Andy Hazell. If Ashton really is picking players on form, then how can Corry be one of the form locks, with Brown playing his socks off week in week out. As for Andy Hazell - what has he done, because everytime he is simply ignored. It is a disgrace.
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didn't guscott say the same thing about another ex rugby league player in Jason Robinson?? look where he is now??
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I really feel Ashton has taken another step backwards in picking Catt. Although there are few other options, Ashton's promise to use youth has been left in tatters it would seem. Allen is a replacement for Farrell who also seems to be the long term replacement at 12 for Greenwood. There are also other options such as Dan Hipkiss, whose form for leicester (when he gets an opportunity) is usually very good. Picking Catt has left longer-term plans in ruin, as it only delays the production of a team capable of competing at the RWC 2011. Its too late for 2007, so england need to do what ireland have done-reorganise their assets and investment/development, and spend 4/5 years developing a team. They might not be world beaters just yet, but they're getting close. England have GOT to stop thinking that they have to be better than everyone else just because they're english, and take some bad results, and let a team build. As a welshman I know that this would be hard to accept, but other teams have had to do it (look at wales-its still going on!). Better would be to pick a team of mainly youth players, and give them 5 years together before the next world cup. However here's my suggestion for this weekend:
1. Payne (as there is no one else)
2. Mears (Chuter can't throw)
3. White (best pound for pound around scrummager)
4. Palmer (dynamic and good work rate)
5. Brown (same as palmer and good skills for a second row)
6. Worsley (one of england's best players
7. Rees (edges Lund for current form)
8. Easter (one for the future and he's from my school)
9. Stuart-Smith (can't remember the last bad game he had for the scarlets, deserves a chance for england)
10. Geraghty (more unpredictable than flood, quicker and creates more openings than flood)
11. Strettle (looks good for some time to come)
12. Allen (the 12 for the future)
13. Tait (another who should be good in a few years, not quite there yet but experience can only help)
14. Robinson (great finisher)
15. Lewsey (will need an experienced head at the back-one of the only class english players at the moment)
Disagree as you like, this is my opinion, but Corry, Tindall, Farrell, Wilkinson, Ellis, Grewcock, Deacon, Chuter and White need to be dropped, as the forwards provide no platform, and the backs are useless without the forward platform, even wilkinson, as was proved last game against ireland. He kicks brilliantly, but can't play on the back foot at all, and certainly doesn't run the backline.
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Can anyone shed some light on the following players and why they have been overlooked? Although we have not done well in the six nations for a few years we had not had a hiding like the one in Croke Park. Anyways:
Anthony Allen
James Simpson Daniel
Olly Barkley
Jamie Noon
Ollie Smith
I think these guys have all performed well in the midfield for england- esp Noon.
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Guys, let's calm down a bit here. England are playing in their own back yard, they never turned up against a fired-up Irish team who needed to pull a big win off against England. England showed the Irish too much respect, (they even had former Irish internationals lecturing them on the importance of Croke Park a week before the game) and the Irish took advantage of it. Les Bleus are managed by two clowns, Joe Masso and Bernie The Door, who only win because they have a great set of players covering up their mistakes. The French posts show that they are getting cocky and see themselves in the WC final already (until they lose to Scotland as they did last year or are beaten by England on Sunday), which means that it's a great time to pull the rug from underneath them. England needed changes and I applaud BA for his slection. I think if England play with conviction and bloody mindedness as we know they can, then I think we will be a lot happier come Sunday evening. England by 5-7 and France going back to the way they should be, worrying about how they will escape their pool in the World Cup.
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Guys, let's calm down a bit here. England are playing in their own back yard, they never turned up against a fired-up Irish team who needed to pull a big win off against England. England showed the Irish too much respect, (they even had former Irish internationals lecturing them on the importance of Croke Park a week before the game) and the Irish took advantage of it. Les Bleus are managed by two clowns, Joe Masso and Bernie The Door, who only win because they have a great set of players covering up their mistakes. The French posts show that they are getting cocky and see themselves in the WC final already (until they lose to Scotland as they did last year or are beaten by England on Sunday), which means that it's a great time to pull the rug from underneath them. England needed changes and I applaud BA for his slection. I think if England play with conviction and bloody mindedness as we know they can, then I think we will be a lot happier come Sunday evening. England by 5-7 and France going back to the way they should be, worrying about how they will escape their pool in the World Cup.
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ive got to say i think its about time englad used their younger players i mean for three almost four years we have stuck with out of form old guys or just out of form guys i got to say though mike catt is the exception he has been brill for irish and i cant wait to see him control the game englands pack looks better than last game but cud be even better with chris jones in second row instead of martin corry i also think lee mears should be starting and haskell at blindside this would give england strong QUICK forwards who can get to the break down faster also englands back line tindall i think is just not goodenough try jamie noon again he may run across the park but surely its simple to tell him to run straight also england need to get back three into the game a lot more robinson and strettle r so dangerous give them the ball let them cut the french defense apart.
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The real question must be;
Should i get completly trashed down the pub with my mates and watch England roll backwards? Or should i stay at home and get drunk, saving my mates and anybody in proximity from a drunken stream of abuse and sadman armchair punditry till closing time?
Still, if i m down the pub i won t be able to here Eddie Butlers voice.
When is Chris Jones going to become a world class lock? Anybody?..
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Forgot to say,
Well done Mike Catt on getting into the team. Picked on form and a great achievement. Wonder if there will be a "Catt camera" this time around. i doubt it somehow..
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So mike Catt at 35 is the answer and the worlds best rugby player, Farrell is not good enough!!!!!League or Union does not matter and it is such a pity he is out as really is Mike Catt the long term solution.......NO! I wonder if there will be a Catt Watch camera with some body watching every move he makes and reporting back to Chinless Wonders R Us HQ. Is Farrell the answer ......who nows but the vitriol is not deserved and lets face it if Union could teach basic ball skills the plunder of League would stop but until Shaun Edwards wins the Premiership with Wasps I guess breeding over skill will out. Guscott and Carling are a disgrace and why oh why do I have to waste my licence fee on rich twerps with nothing useful to say........please get rid...
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So mike Catt at 35 is the answer and the worlds best rugby player, Farrell is not good enough!!!!!League or Union does not matter and it is such a pity he is out as really is Mike Catt the long term solution.......NO! I wonder if there will be a Catt Watch camera with some body watching every move he makes and reporting back to Chinless Wonders R Us HQ. Is Farrell the answer ......who nows but the vitriol is not deserved and lets face it if Union could teach basic ball skills the plunder of League would stop but until Shaun Edwards wins the Premiership with Wasps I guess breeding over skill will out. Guscott and Carling are a disgrace and why oh why do I have to waste my licence fee on rich twerps with nothing useful to say........please get rid...
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The guinness premiership is at too low a level for england selectors to pick the big game players. Ashton needs to follow the irish example and concentrate on the players who preform in the h-cup.
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England will get hammered - they're in complete disarray and these selections look like desperation identifying a lack of depth in almost all areas. Agree with Oblong (#129) - where are these guys? They've performed well for England in the past and have experience - don't England need some of that now?
And please stop moaning about how tough it is for players to play 3 weeks in a row - just toughen up guys! The S14 series, which plays at an intensity and skill level well above 6N, is every weekend for 12 weeks - each team gets 1 week off during that time. Sure there are injuries, but they get on with it and peform at the highest level every week. Moaning about the player workload is nonsense. When the AB's toured last Autumn, positions 3, 7, and 10 (arguably the hardest 3 positions in the game) were the same for 4 weeks in a row - no complaints!
France will be very confident this weekend - England's only hope is if France are indeed 'over-confident'!
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I am a South African, and like I said before, support England in the Six Nations. Now we all know that England did not play the best rugby, they suffer with a lot of injuries and France is going to CRUSH them on Saterday. BUT... don't you think we should keep on supporting our team and be positive in our believe that they are learning and will improve with time? Don't just support your team when they are on a winning streak, a real and true supporter stands by his/her team no matter what, thats how we do it in South Africa!!! We also get angry, we cry and get frustrated, but man,when that team runs on the field we are 100% behind them good or bad, win or lose,they are our team and we love them.(trust me as a South African I know what it feels like, been there and we are rugby fanatics!!!)
So good luck boys, we will be there for you on Saterday, you just give the best you have and most important enjoy the game!
Regards
Veldie
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I find it strange that Ashton has not considered Ben Kay or Simon Shaw at lock! To bring experience, size and strength to the second row. I do worry about our pack against the French; I have a feeling we are in for another drubbing!
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Get real Ashton. Your selections to date have been pathetic and so lacking in planning that it is embarassing. To me, it is summed up by the choice of Donkey Corry in the second row - I wonder what the likes of Alex Brown and Chris Jones are feeling right now.
And guess who would have been playing there if fit? Yep, you've got it...two more Bath cronies:
- 26 cap wonder Borthwick who has hardly played this year and who has been given so many chances it is a disgrace
- Balshaw. Yet again being found out at Gloucester where even their supporters place him as third choce full back for their team
I thought Ashton was selecting "in form" players - when was Corry in form playing out of position for the third time this season?
Get rid of Ashton now and bring in two new coaches: Gloucester's Dean Ryan for the forwards and Bristol's Richard Hill. And by the way, how many players do "in form" Bristol (2nd in the table) and Gloucester (3rd) have in the side ? - just one, ex Bath man Tindall!
The best thing that could happen to English rugby would be for the French to give us a beating.
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Bringing Catt back at 35, and especially giving him the captaincy is ridiclous. Putting Corry in at lock is just putting two fingers up to every oter second row who works hard for their club in the premiership. We need to stop pretending there is any hope for this world cup, get a squad of players together all under 25, let them play together for 4 years from now and win the next world cup. Piecing a team together from old geezers coming out of retirement is a waste of time- England's talent currently lies in youth, lets use it.
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Any one notice Guscott slamming Farell for lack of pace but welcomes Catt back into the side even though he is not the fastest center in the country!!! Got to give Farell time other wise whats the point in all these quick fixes.
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Bring back Chilcott too, why don't you ?
If we are to read the views of those who played in the days when the forwards walked between lineouts, and the crowd handled the ball more than the players, then why not ?
The fact is, today's rugby is played with the ball in hand. Underwood and others are correct to highlight the sad lack of basic skills .
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i think jamie noon and ollie simth would be geart for englang in the cetres. noon would be a top class 12, in both attack and defence like greenwood. dont think Geraghty, flood and tait are ready yet. see post 127. easter and palmer are good colls though
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With the return of Chabal and Villiers the English pack will struggle. I'd love England to go out there and put in an epic performance, but if i were a betting man I'd go with a comfortable French victory.
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Ashtom wants more agility in the line out and he has put Corry in at second row? Ye Gods
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I have to say I am guilty like many of allowing myself to indulge in some "what if" banter in support of the England team. However, I feel personally that its time to forget about a world cup defence and winning the 6N and even beating the French, just enjoy a really good year of rugby, just don't expect it to come from England!
As for Ashton, the Sword of Damocles will surely hang above him, unfairly in my opinion. Atleast this guy knows when to hold his hand up and is trying different things to sort out the whole sorry state.
This weekend I will be happy to see the following things a cohesive defensive line, a positive mentality, some secure moves through hands and attempts and running decent lines and the forwards protecting the ball in the breakdown. There will be a few mistakes I imagine, so I would think a French penalty as the first score, they will look to hit us hard in the opening minutes. And the french will probably win by 10. not the emotion of the Irealnd game so not going to be a killing.
We also need steady performances from Ellis, Chuter and White. I want Catt to bring a heads up mind set as Jonny did on the opener, since then we have lacked that.
But back to where i started, I can't help myself, come one England! Swing Low..........
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To Spencer Tracy and some others .
Hey guys , it's up to you to calm down !
Where did you read that we, French, believe it's gonna be easy to win at Twickenham ?... Nobody , in France, players as well as supporters , is "COCKY" for the next match on sunday...and we don't see already ourselves in the WC Final... We respect all our opponents and..WE WORK A LOT !
There's no overconfidence or arrogance in that team like I can read here in many comments...but ,on the contrary,full of HUMILITY. We take all our opponents and game very seriously. And we know as well our present forces as our limits and all the work remaining to fill the gap between us and the best ones :the ABs.
So please stop talking about a French team and French supporters that only exist in your imagination full of old , very old clich茅s !
Saying that, and with all respect I have for England Team, after reading some so agressive and unfounded posts here, be sure the French team will be ready to give the perfect answer on next sunday!!!
Enjoy folks !
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Andy Farrell apparently made 17 tackles against Ireland , more than any other player , how many will Mike Catt make against France. Jauzion must be licking his lips !
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I am really getting tired of the old boys club (Guscott, Carling and co.) using Farrell as a scapegoat for very ordinary England performances and their comments seem to taste a little like sour grapes.
Let me make this clear, I am no Farrell fan and believe that the choice to bring him to Union was an unnecessary waste of RFU funding, better spent on developing the lower leagues and National Divisions and boosting the development system.
However that all said and done Farrell is here, and let us be honest even though he is still finding his feet he has performed better than many with the red rose on their breast. Everyone is harping on about his lack of pace, wake-up people he is playing inside centre traditionally the position filled by a player with physical presence i.e. Mike Tindall in the Woodward era.
Tindall was then also criticised for a lack of pace but now finds himself in the number 13 jumper and in my opinion has not performed, but by remaining anonymous on the pitch has escaped criticism from the old boys club (could be due to his membership of said club).
The necessary changes for this weekend I welcome and I have always respected Mike Catt鈥檚 ability to help develop younger players. The team for Sunday鈥檚 clash against France has helped to highlight the Farrell vs. Catt debate and I am still in two minds over this. One thing to me is clear though these are the two men for the 12 job and a little healthy competition will do them and the team a little bit of good.
My only problem with the team as it stands now is that Tait is a young vibrant player looking to prove himself, but is kept on the bench. I think with Catt at 12 we have a steady head that can help to develop Flood inside him and Tait on his outside.
Here is how my England team would look for this weekend.
1. T Payne (Wasps)
2. G Chuter (Leicester)
3. J White (Leicester)
4. M Corry (Leicester) *cap
5. T Palmer (Wasps)
6. J Worsley (Wasps)
7. T Rees (Wasps)
8. N Easter (Harlequins)
9. H Ellis (Leicester)
10. T Flood (Newcastle)
11. J Robinson (Sale)
12. M Catt (London Irish)
13. M Tait (Newcastle)
14. D Strettle (Harlequins)
15. J Lewsey (Wasps)
16. L Mears (Bath)
17. S Turner (Sale)
18. L Deacon (Leicester)
19. M Lund (Sale)
20. S Perry (Bristol)
21. S Geraghty (London Irish)
22. O Smith (Leicester) / S Abbott (Harlequins) * If he was not concussed
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Hmmm! Some interesting posts, some thought provoking, and some just plain daft - and the latter not just from non-English lovers of this great game!
BA does seem to have got a little confused. If picking on form then Catt, Strettle, Palmer, Rees, Easter and Worsley should be there. But Corry & Tindall? And Corry at lock? Once the 15 is selected though the captaincy is a no-brainer - Catt is the obvious choice - once again on form. Pick your team first and then pick the captain from it.
Although I always want to see England do well, I am disappointed that BA didn't decide to use this 6N for experimentation regardless of results. Forget the fact that England are RWC champions (I would use the term "holders" instead), acknowledge that a Q-final berth at the next one is the best we can expect, and seriously start planning for the one after. Keep 5 or 6 experienced players as the pivot of the side - but only if form dictates - and ring the changes on the rest to find the best squad of players over time. I would keep 3 experienced backs (one in the back three, one in the centre, and one at half-back) and 2 or 3 experienced fwds. Blooding players against France would have been no bad thing - not tainted by failure nor probably by the weight of great expectation, with nothing to lose and everything to gain. Dylan Hartley would have been my first choice hooker, and Chris Jones and Alex Brown would have been way ahead of Corry. Ellis and Flood is about right though, although like many of you Geraghty looks a good bet too.
Of course there is also the small problem of any 15 selected doing the basics right and, and perhaps one of the half-backs could control a wire looped around Julian White's nads, just to encourage him not to infringe so often! A little tug here and there when all three balls are in England's half could keep the penalty count down!!
When all is said and done though, I will always be rooting for any England 15 against any other team in the World, and France at the w/e is no exception. No shame in losing to a better team though. All I ask is for the boys to play to their abilities, put up a good show, give BA some pointers to the future, oh! and entertain me.
Is that too much to ask? Probably!
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Come on England, do us Irish a favour & beat the French! I think England's problem is recalling older players who are past their best (i.e. Catt) rather than giving younger guys a chance. What about Ollie Smith? He was good enough to go on the last Lions Tour! England should be looking to the future rather than clinging to the past. People are even calling for Dallaglio to return - that is ridiculous.
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Mike Catt is back, a backward step or what?
I've got some great news for Brain Ashton, I've just spoken to Dean Richards, he says he's fit and can turn out, still waiting news from Bill Beaumont and Fran Cotton.
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Whilst I suspect that England have just kissed any chance of a creditable world cup defence goodbye, BA's selection is the sort of thing Andy Robinson should have been doing 3 years ago.
England's problem is that the young guns such as Flood, Tait, Barkley, Simpson-Daniel etc. Have not had the international game time to establish themselves in their own right.
Catt is not the future, he has lost some of his pace, would I have picked him? absolutley - with his vision and experience he is exactly the person to play outside of Flood.If JW was fit, I would have suggested someone else. In terms of ability under pressure those that say he's poor obviously haven't watched him much. Anyone remember that pass from off the floor between his legs that stopped certain Aussie points.
This team could beat France, I just don't know where the points off the boot will come from.
In terms of #23 comments that BA must go because he's undone all of Clive Woodwards good work. I assume that he's been asleep for the last 3 years, England's problems started then and go much deeper than the coaching (it could even be argued that some of CW's ideas had become a little too radicle.)
I beleive that BA must start building a team that can win 2011 WC and stuff everything else until then. To do that we must accept that England will not be a force for another 2 years and let BA get on with it.
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Agree about the further wiff of Bath cronyism in the selection.
The chances are that the English forwards will be going backwards for much of the game so the fact that Catt is a good line kicker (better than Wilkinson)is an advantage. However, those with longer memories will know that his passing and trickery does not transfer from the premiership to the international stage. France of all teams will know how to exploit this. Shame there is no place for Tait. Few other teams would have treated him so badly. Same goes for Jones. Playing Corry out of position is the final indignity. What is most disappointing is that there doesn't appear to be any clear thinking about selection let alone any real vision for the future. Shame on England!
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I ve been watching many England- France games and been reading many posts and comments for years but this time you english, you are scared !!! you are scared and you better be. France will win easily with 20-30 points up !! Regarding the World Cup, you should prepar to be kicked as soons as your team arrive on the French ground. Love it ! and good luck
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Interesting that France have replaced Mignoni with Yachvili. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that Ellis completely wiped the floor with Mignoni a couple of seasons ago against Clermont-Auvergne, while Yachvili had the upper hand in Leicester-Biarritz games?
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I think solid selection from Ashton. It is now up to the players to perform...happy to see lewsey at fullback adding a bit of defensive steel, he is wasted on the wing. Fraustrated but not surprised to See the hugely talented Tait being overlooked but then again that is no great change from the last regime. It seems we are continuing to impliment half cocked changes designed to appease that, due to their shortsightedness will eventually fail. Find some courage Ashton!!!
I'm very much enjoying the 'Toby Flood is a touch lightweight for the international game' comments. Clearly made by people who have never seen Flood play in a falcons shirt, and cream the likes of Merthans and Rubeni in the premiership. This is his first big chance on the international scene. interception pass against Argies aside he hasnt been given a chance. He is easily as talented as young Wilkinson, and although not as solid in the tackle he is his superior in terms of attacking flair. I cant wait for him to put Skrela on his A**se! lets please wipe the grin off of the gnarled visages of les Bleus.
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Does any one else think that Tait is a far superior player to Tindall and should be given a start? Catt coming into the team isn't the worst thing that could happen, and combining his experience with some serious flare outside him could create problems for France.
Corry should have been dropped ages ago, our line out may well get slaughtered this weekend.
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As a frenchman who traditionally relishes "le crunch", I'm really disappointed by this selection : Does Brian Ashton really think he can beat a full-force french side with this team ? Of course, as Andrew Mehrtens once famously put it, France is predictably unpredictable, and there is a remote chance that we perform poorly on Sunday. And yes, if it rains heavily, if the ball gets as slippery as soap, it can be a contest. I hate to sound arrogant, but indeed who in this english side would be selected by Laporte ?
Ok, maybe Jason Robinson and Harry Ellis (on the bench for the latter).
On the paper, France has a minimum 15 points head start, and the fact that the french players were rested last weekend won't help to bridge the gap. In my opinion, the main problem for England will be to keep up with the pace ; I expect Tindall and Catt to experience a torrid afternoon...
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As a frenchman who traditionally relishes "le crunch", I'm really disappointed by this selection : Does Brian Ashton really think he can beat a full-force french side with this team ? Of course, as Andrew Mehrtens once famously put it, France is predictably unpredictable, and there is a remote chance that we perform poorly on Sunday. And yes, if it rains heavily, if the ball gets as slippery as soap, it can be a contest. I hate to sound arrogant, but indeed who in this english side would be selected by Laporte ?
Ok, maybe Jason Robinson and Harry Ellis (on the bench for the latter).
On the paper, France has a minimum 15 points head start, and the fact that the french players were rested last weekend won't help to bridge the gap. In my opinion, the main problem for England will be to keep up with the pace ; I expect Tindall and Catt to experience a torrid afternoon...
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One question. Where are the kicking points coming from? Wilko on one leg can still win a game with his eye for the sticks. Has Flood got the nerve in the big game? It could come down to that if England play smart and I don't fancy our chances in a kicking duel without Wilko.
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I don't understand the people who say Mike Catt is a backward step. Despite getting on a bit Catty is a good player, why shouldn't BA pick older players if they are the best he can pick. As much as I would love to see new players all over the park playing well that just isn't a realistic expectation. When they come onto the pitch and feel the atmosphere the pressure will start to work on them. Catty has played in England teams who have won by large margines and who have been thumped too. You cannot underestimate the importance of having an experienced head on the park giving reassurance to our new bloods.
Do I think we'll win? Possibly. It depends which French team turn up and if England can stick to a game plan. Much like all hispanic and italien teams who play with 'passion' the French will get annoyed if England keep it tight and don't let them play how they like. Just get the French angry then they will start losing the plot and make mistakes. Not as easy as it sounds, but England can just grind the Frenchies out of this game.
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I think France will easily win the 6 nations this year. Even Ireland is far behind. They were pretty lucky for not losing more against the frogs.
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Some interesting points made. I think essentially what we as England fans have to realise is that we are not that good anymore. We don't have the players performing week in week out to step up to international rugby. I hear those asking for Ollie Smiths inclusion. He's a solid player and on his day would offer something to the team, but on his performances this season is he desrving of a recall. If recalled who do you drop.
Catt is the right call to start and captain a relatively inexperienced side lacking in leadership. Tindall needs to start to sure up the England midfield defensively. Don't forget one of Wilko's main attributes is his defense. With him gone and Catt playing inside centre (sometimes prone to a defensive lapse in concentration) someone of Tindalls presence needs to be there to sure things up and lead the line.
However, I'm a huge fan of Taity and believe he is the man for the future, so much gas and talent!!! He exploded on to the 7s circuit winning rave reviews from around the world. I think he should be introduced with 30 mins to go to offer something different and challenge the French defence. He poses different questions to the more direct and brutish Tindall. He had a large hand in Strettles try, timing his pass well to draw his man. His defence is also fairly solid demonstrated in that great covering tackle made last week to certain try. For me he should be starting come the World Cup in France. I think under Ashton we're heading in the right direction, and will be a better XV come the world cup!! Not winners though.....
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Honestly, I think England will display a good match and can play a big card here, not only for this 6 nations' tournament, but also for the next world cup. Sure, England were not as great as they used to be, but the team is on its way to a reconstruction, and a part of its spirit is back. Forget the match agaisnt Ireland. It was too much a special occasion for both countries.
France have a real fighting spirit in this tournament, yes, sure. But believe a French, we fear England. We know the English players have talent, and if they find the spirit, we will have serious problems, whoever plays on the pitch. The pressure is great, because of the next world cup, and a defeat in England would spread the doubt in the French minds.
Our squad is not the best on the world. We won in Ireland, right. But the Irish played without two of their best players and they deserved the victory as much as us. We reacted well against Wales, right. Still, we conceaded three tries. Yes, France can win at Twickenham, but, once again, if we win, it will be a victory against an England squad without its best players and will not reveal the real value of the teams. But believe me, England players will not lose the game without a real fight, supported by the whole Twickenham. I hope to see a great match, and may the better squad win !
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I think France will easily win the 6 nations this year. Even Ireland is far behind. They were pretty lucky for not losing more against the frogs.
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Yeah about as scared as we were at Waterloo or Trafalgar.
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Yeah about as scared as we were at Waterloo or Trafalgar.
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There are an awful lot of doom and gloom merchants here who seem to think that Ashton should just be able to wave his magic wand and all will be magically transformed.
Like any coach he can only work with what is in front of him so lets just look at the facts.
He inherited a confused,demoralised bunch of players trapped in a playing season that in terms of preparation for rugby at the highest level could not be worse.
Whilst every other nation rests it's players allowing coaches to spend more quality time with their squads ,his players have to trawl their way through a weekend of high intensity if not high quality league rugby ,thus surrendering precious time he could be spending moulding the team into the unit he wants in addition to losing players to unnecessary injuries.
He is damned if he does and damned if he doesnt as far as the changes he has made.For all those moaning about Corry's selection wake up ,you cannot go into an international against France with a forward pack with Worsley aside no more than a handful of appearances amongst them.He is there for his experience as much as anything and I think it is a pragmatic and sensible choice.Tindal is there for pretty much the same reason and I would also say that he cannot be blamed for the poor showing of his forward colleagues.No team ,not even the mighty All Blacks will win games when their forwards are so comprehensively outplayed.
BA is also right in saying that we in World rugby's second division and until we get a proper structured season ,and he gets more control over his players there will be no way forward for England ,and I for one think it is unfair for anyone to criticize a man for trying to do a job with one hand tied behind his back.
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Have to say, was suprised that Cat was not in the team from the start of the campaign. He has consistently been the in form English centre for the last 18 months or so. As a Welshman I hope Ashton reverts to Farrel for the game on 17th!!
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Can anyone actually see England beating France on current form?
Come on, Ashton himself said we are a 2nd division side, not exactly a, 'for England, Harry and St,George' type of approach.
England will struggle, we will lose possession, we will drop the ball, we will give away penalties, we will be offside, we will knock the ball on, we will look shapeless and shoddy
just face it.........
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Can anyone actually see England beating France on current form?
Come on, Ashton himself said we are a 2nd division side, not exactly a, 'for England, Harry and St,George' type of approach.
England will struggle, we will lose possession, we will drop the ball, we will give away penalties, we will be offside, we will knock the ball on, we will look shapeless and shoddy
just face it.........
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England do not have the quality players to realistically win. France B would beat England.
Ashton's changes are welcome, but too late. We should have been introducing new players 3 years ago.
After the dullest years under Andy Robinson, I just hope England can progress and develop a dynamic and attractive style of rugby for the future. I'd rather they lose but play well.
Until then, England supporters will need to be gracious in defeat!
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Catt is the "In Form" English centre without a doubt, his pairing with Shane Geraghty has been magical to behold and I really do think Mr Ashton should consider Geraghty over Flood.
I am saying this as an Irish man and in particular an Ulster man. We Ulster fans know all about the Catt-Geraghty partnership in the Heineken Cup.
This England side could just surprise the more pessimistic of you English fans. I'm glad you didn't take this side to Croke 2 weeks ago.
COME ON ENGLAND !!!!
(Did I just say "Come on England")?
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Brian Ashton's options are:
(a) Scrape the barrel; or
(b) cancel the fixture.
Given that he cannot go for option (b), why criticise him for taking option (a)?
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Interesting... I'm just livid at what England have been doing during the past 3 years. When we won the Web Ellis we knew that we had to use it as a launchpad to really cement us as a top, top side. We had 4 years to prepare for a world cup we had more chance of winning than 2003 - being held in the Northern Hemisphere.
But no, we don't use the 4 years to structure our game (I dont want to bash on about club-country but look at Wales 2005 season) We dont use the time to nurture young talent so we have a pool of 40 odd top players with the 10-15 players of World-Class standard.
E.g. why bring Tait in for 1 game, where he got smashed by Henson then leave him hanging and still he is not experienced at International Level!
Interested to see Corry in at lock but if he is up to scratch, then why not put him there before when he has not looked up-to-scratch at 8 for some time - nothing compared to Dellaglio even now.
Injuries have plagued us but instead of using them as an opportunity to show their metal we have used then like Sven-G-Ericsson did Theo Wallcott. We have used stop-gaps to try to get a narrow victory to keep the media off the RFU's back.
Hasn't worked has it.
Back 3 is good, but they're not going to get the ball as Tindall and Catt are good premiership players but will get swallowed up by the World Class French Back Row and Centres.
If you're talking about bringing back some old classic players, what about Ian Hunter, Martin Bayfield and Tim Rodber haha (you can't tell I'm a Saints fan eh!)
Come on England- as long as we show up to the French and beat Wales I'll be happy
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All this doom and gloom is getting me down.
The 6 Nations hasn't gone!
If England win on Sunday the whole thing blows wide open.
Lets face it, Ireland have only performed once this year and their remaining matches are away from home. Expect Italy to ask serious questions of the Irish pack. Even if they win the remainder they may not significantly improve their points difference.
France should win against Scotland leaving Wales to stop England.
OK it looks unlikely but home advantage counts for a lot and no team is guaranteed wins on their travels.
I think there may be other surprises.
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Catt is the "In Form" English centre without a doubt, his pairing with Shane Geraghty has been magical to behold and I really do think Mr Ashton should consider Geraghty over Flood.
I am saying this as an Irish man and in particular an Ulster man. We Ulster fans know all about the Catt-Geraghty partnership in the Heineken Cup.
COME ON ENGLAND !!!!
(Did I just say "Come on England")?
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Catt is the "In Form" English centre without a doubt, his pairing with Shane Geraghty has been magical to behold and I really do think Mr Ashton should consider Geraghty over Flood.
I am saying this as an Irish man and in particular an Ulster man. We Ulster fans know all about the Catt-Geraghty partnership in the Heineken Cup.
This England side could just surprise the more pessimistic of you English fans.
COME ON ENGLAND !!!!
(Did I just say "Come on England")?
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Interesting... I'm just livid at what England have been doing during the past 3 years. When we won the Web Ellis we knew that we had to use it as a launchpad to really cement us as a top, top side. We had 4 years to prepare for a world cup we had more chance of winning than 2003 - being held in the Northern Hemisphere.
But no, we don't use the 4 years to structure our game (I dont want to bash on about club-country but look at Wales 2005 season) We dont use the time to nurture young talent so we have a pool of 40 odd top players with the 10-15 players of World-Class standard.
E.g. why bring Tait in for 1 game, where he got smashed by Henson then leave him hanging and still he is not experienced at International Level!
Interested to see Corry in at lock but if he is up to scratch, then why not put him there before when he has not looked up-to-scratch at 8 for some time - nothing compared to Dellaglio even now.
Injuries have plagued us but instead of using them as an opportunity to show their metal we have used then like Sven-G-Ericsson did Theo Wallcott. We have used stop-gaps to try to get a narrow victory to keep the media off the RFU's back.
Hasn't worked has it.
Back 3 is good, but they're not going to get the ball as Tindall and Catt are good premiership players but will get swallowed up by the World Class French Back Row and Centres.
If you're talking about bringing back some old classic players, what about Ian Hunter, Martin Bayfield and Tim Rodber haha (you can't tell I'm a Saints fan eh!)
Come on England- as long as we show up to the French and beat Wales I'll be happy
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It is pointless to whinge and moan about Ashton's selections for the match against France. He's made his decisions so button up and save your energy to cheer Catt & Co on as, quite frankly, England will need every fan to be 100% behind them.
Here's hoping for a competitive match at Twickenham.
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It is pointless to whinge and moan about Ashton's selections for the match against France. He's made his decisions so button up and save your energy to cheer Catt & Co on as, quite frankly, England will need every fan to be 100% behind them.
Here's hoping for a competitive match at Twickenham.
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Interesting... I'm just livid at what England have been doing during the past 3 years. When we won the Web Ellis we knew that we had to use it as a launchpad to really cement us as a top, top side. We had 4 years to prepare for a world cup we had more chance of winning than 2003 - being held in the Northern Hemisphere.
But no, we don't use the 4 years to structure our game (I dont want to bash on about club-country but look at Wales 2005 season) We dont use the time to nurture young talent so we have a pool of 40 odd top players with the 10-15 players of World-Class standard.
E.g. why bring Tait in for 1 game, where he got smashed by Henson then leave him hanging and still he is not experienced at International Level!
Interested to see Corry in at lock but if he is up to scratch, then why not put him there before when he has not looked up-to-scratch at 8 for some time - nothing compared to Dellaglio even now.
Injuries have plagued us but instead of using them as an opportunity to show their metal we have used then like Sven-G-Ericsson did Theo Wallcott. We have used stop-gaps to try to get a narrow victory to keep the media off the RFU's back.
Hasn't worked has it.
Back 3 is good, but they're not going to get the ball as Tindall and Catt are good premiership players but will get swallowed up by the World Class French Back Row and Centres.
If you're talking about bringing back some old classic players, what about Ian Hunter, Martin Bayfield and Tim Rodber haha (you can't tell I'm a Saints fan eh!)
Come on England- as long as we show up to the French and beat Wales I'll be happy
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Interesting... I'm just livid at what England have been doing during the past 3 years. When we won the Web Ellis we knew that we had to use it as a launchpad to really cement us as a top, top side. We had 4 years to prepare for a world cup we had more chance of winning than 2003 - being held in the Northern Hemisphere.
But no, we don't use the 4 years to structure our game (I dont want to bash on about club-country but look at Wales 2005 season) We dont use the time to nurture young talent so we have a pool of 40 odd top players with the 10-15 players of World-Class standard.
E.g. why bring Tait in for 1 game, where he got smashed by Henson then leave him hanging and still he is not experienced at International Level!
Interested to see Corry in at lock but if he is up to scratch, then why not put him there before when he has not looked up-to-scratch at 8 for some time - nothing compared to Dellaglio even now.
Injuries have plagued us but instead of using them as an opportunity to show their metal we have used then like Sven-G-Ericsson did Theo Wallcott. We have used stop-gaps to try to get a narrow victory to keep the media off the RFU's back.
Hasn't worked has it.
Back 3 is good, but they're not going to get the ball as Tindall and Catt are good premiership players but will get swallowed up by the World Class French Back Row and Centres.
If you're talking about bringing back some old classic players, what about Ian Hunter, Martin Bayfield and Tim Rodber haha (you can't tell I'm a Saints fan eh!)
Come on England- as long as we show up to the French and beat Wales I'll be happy
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Can I just say on behalve of ABE (Anyone But England) that it is finally good to hear the English rugby fans realising that they aren't the side that won the World Cup. And yes I know you won the World Cup but like the English football team, you don't have this devine right to win every game you play!!
Since the Worrld Cup Final you have played Ireland four times and lost all four!!! What odds would I have got for that back in 2003?
I hope you do pull a victory out of nowhere against France so Ireland still have a chance at winning the Championship, because a third Triple Crown in four years is a disapointment this year!
And if you do, don't be booking your hotel room in Paris for the World Cup final just yet!!
Shoulder to Shoulder
Alan
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Some interesting points made. I think essentially what we as England fans have to realise is that we are not that good anymore. We don't have the players performing week in week out to step up to international rugby. I hear those asking for Ollie Smiths inclusion. He's a solid player and on his day would offer something to the team, but on his performances this season is he desrving of a recall. If recalled who do you drop.
Catt is the right call to start and captain a relatively inexperienced side lacking in leadership. Tindall needs to start to sure up the England midfield defensively. Don't forget one of Wilko's main attributes is his defense. With him gone and Catt playing inside centre (sometimes prone to a defensive lapse in concentration) someone of Tindalls presence needs to be there to sure things up and lead the line.
However, I'm a huge fan of Taity and believe he is the man for the future, so much gas and talent!!! He exploded on to the 7s circuit winning rave reviews from around the world. I think he should be introduced with 30 mins to go to offer something different and challenge the French defence. He poses different questions to the more direct and brutish Tindall. He had a large hand in Strettles try, timing his pass well to draw his man. His defence is also fairly solid demonstrated in that great covering tackle made last week to stop a certain try. For me he should be starting come the World Cup in France. I think under Ashton we're heading in the right direction, and will be a better XV come the world cup!! Not winners though.....
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2005 Ch. Batailley
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In the circumstances BA has made some bold decisions. Why not test some of these young lads against the best side in the Northern Hemisphere.If I was going to be hypercritical,I could argue that if he is looking for pace, he could have gone for broke and put Tait at Outside Centre instead of Tindall, and played Simpson Daniel instead of Robinson or Strettle( yes that would be very unfair on both of them, but Sinbad needs to prove he can last a whole international match before the World Cup). Bringing Catt back as captain could be a masterstroke. He has the knowledge and experience to guide these young lads, and lets face it, there weren't many other candidates. As for the result, it doesn't really matter as the ultimate goal must be at least a SF place in the autumn.
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I absolutely cannot understand why Ashton feels that Flood is next in line to the Jonny throne. I think it would be fair to say that all of the four outstanding, young fly-halfs in the English game (Flood, Geraghty, Lamb and Cipriani) still make mistakes and are by no-means finished articles. But, for me, even with the mistakes ironed out, Flood is a solid option at best. For a team that, unlike Ireland, relies on creativity at 10 rather than in the midfield this, I feel, will simply never be enough. Geraghty, whilst inexperienced, offers much more spark and prescence than Flood. And if only wasps would give Cipriani a game at 10 - he's pure talent and will outshine the lot in the future!
So Flood is in for his 'international experience.' Lets face it, he hasnt set the world alight. I think France will be sharpening their knives, and it might not be such a bad thing for the future of the English game if they show him up at the top level, as I fear they will
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I was at the London Irish win over Newcastle at the weekend and as a LI fan would have loved to have seen Catt and Geraghty start together but can understand why Flood has been put there as he has at least had a few caps from the bench. In the 2nd half he looked good going forward as did Tait (who should be starting instead of Tindall).
But what is Flood's kicking like??
Can he cope with this sort of presure?? As he only kicks if Wilkinson in injured, which is a lot!!!!
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Has anyone noticed that the England Ladies Team has yet to concede a point in their Six Nations. How about it Brian? Mixed rugby just may be the way forward !!
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I'm having 拢50 with the bookies on France by 20.
Should get some decent odds?
It all starts in the tight five.
England simply won't win enough ball for their two wingers to do the damage.
As a diehard Rosslyn Park supporter, England could do with Andy Ripley back at no 8 and John Ranson at no 11 complete with brylcream!!!
That would stuff the frogs....
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Just remembered 2 other Rosslyn Park ex England players who would rattle the frogs.........Maurice Colclough, Chris Winn and a rather fine rugby league player...Martin Offiah!!!!
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Hmmm Mike Catt to bring on the youngsters 鈥︹︹. Wasn鈥檛 that the bloke who appeared determined to make sure Tom Varndell never played for England again with his telegraphed and regularly repeated (fooling nobody apart from England selectors it appears) loopy cut out passes in Australia last year 鈥 result was the fastest wing in the country received men (Tuquiri, Mortlock et al) and ball at the same time 鈥 invariably meaning a turnover. His confidence suffered so much that he never tried running around anyone after that and constantly kicked the ball away.
Are we going to win against France 鈥 er no. Will we learn anything new by playing Catt - er no again. Will old pros trot out the same nonsense that we need experienced heads to play when the people who should be played are being held up by past-it players. If Farrell is jettisoned as it appears to be predicted by most people here, will we have an experienced alternative to turn to when Catt gets inevitably injured 鈥 er no again.
As much as I admire Johnno, his and others 鈥榦nly winning your next game is all that counts鈥 philosophy has not worked for the last years. Bringing back old players who once did it for a one off game in order for a damage limitation exercise has been proved as a failure repeatedly during this period but yet again the selectors are at it.
I鈥檓 sick and tired of listening to old pros trying to apply some flawed logic that if something worked once, it always works. The 2003 RWC team were a great team, full of players who would have been selected in a world 15 with a great deal of experience gained both personally and as a team. The team hardly ever changed, they all knew how the other played, were generally lucky with injuries and were geared to peaking in the world cup.
However most were coming toward the end of their careers and the vacuum created by the lack of rotation meant nobody was there to replace essentially a whole team when that happened. Mr Robinson tried almost blindly to recreate this with the back ups combined with the lesser talented, out of form, not fully fit parts of the original team. Again net result was very few wins and absolutely no development of future players. Perhaps with Johnson and others, it also proves that ex-pros who were themselves good players do not always (or perhaps hardly ever) make great coaches.
So we arrive where are we now 鈥 Ashton decides to pick golden oldies to nursemaid inexperienced youngsters in key areas for one off games. We appear to only have the following types of player today
1. Very experienced players who while still able to show flashes of their former days are generally past it and get shown up in the bigger games.
2. Semi-experienced but have never been great players but are able to go through the motions before getting found out by proper international sides
3. Talented youngsters who are either: -
a. picked but never given the best opportunities to show their talents because they are considered too inexperienced on their own and have to be surrounded by type 1 or normally type 2
b. not picked because they are considered too inexperienced to be trusted and have their potential place taken by type 1 or normally type 2
Why is it other countries have great players who are picking up their 50th cap in their early twenties when often ours are only picking up their 1st when they are nearly thirty? To be quite honest there is all this talk about the importance of experience but where were the experienced players when Ireland were bossing the game? Did they change their game plan on the pitch after recognising the issues going on around them? Were they the very same people who were navel gazing behind the posts in the same way as the inexperience players?
Well as far as I鈥檓 concerned we have to accept that we are not a good side at the moment and no amount of papering over the cracks for one-off occasions will help in the short, medium or long term. Will scraping though the group games of the RWC and then losing in the quarter finals with a mix of players of type 1 &2 do us any good 鈥 obviously not !!!
So after a marathon post my vote is to get in the talented youngsters who show promise at age group rugby and give them the chance to build a team together, gain experience in this world cup and have a chance of winning something in the future. It may also stop talented youngsters such as Ryan Lamb being tempted away by very tenuous links to other countries where they will not be overlooked for a has-been and actually get games albeit due to the dearth of their own talent.
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What a joke ouir national side has become. Sad, but very true. We are now the laughing stock of international rugby through our inept performances.
The fact remains that our pack is the problem. We have never been able to replace Neil Back, Richard Hill, Lozza, and Johnson.
We lack mobility and look ponderous as opposed to the rampant pack that beat the all blacks in wellington in 2003. Our forwards had 5kg a man on the irish pack yet were physically just not up to it.....size does NOT equal strength or power...
also, why oh why, can our forwards not just leave the ball - do their job, and let the backs do theirs...i am sick of the backs not getting any ball until 5 or 6th phase possession because Grewcock and Chuter (two main offenders) keep taking it at first reciever and running headlong into a brick wall....
Why Matthew Tait is denied a place at outside centre is beyond me as he consistently scores tries for Falcons, and showed glimpses of his pace against Ireland...
But our backs cannot use SLOW ball....it is down to the pack to create quick ball that lets the backs (and we have actually got some flyers) expose the opposition...the reason we can't break down the irish or italians was the speed of ball getting to our backs was so slow that it was too easy to defend against...
Sort the pack out first...
Get them doing some speed and power work, maybe if they lost a few pounds in weight too...!!
As for Corry, great club player but NEVER international standard....what has happened to Forrester...and if only DWS had not been injured...
I despair about this England set-up...
I'm sure Ashton is trying to do the right things but watching them on the pitch they look clueless and leaderless...
I fear the worst for us on sunday...
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From 1999 to 2003 England won 3 6N with a Grand Slam in their WC winning year and a triple crown the prev year. They done this with a pretty settled team, coming to their peak culminating in the WC win which was Clives ambition. Post WC, the goal should have been to bring through the new faces over a couple of seasons.
Bringing in older players as a stop gap since winning the WC has proved fruitless. At least blooding a younger side with a look to the future would mean that the losses would serve to instill the experience required to compete at the highest level.
Ireland have done this and while have not won anything of note as of yet (bar triple crowns) they can compete at the highest level. Obviously their structure has helped but there is plenty of emerging talent in England.
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From 1999 to 2003 England won 3 6N with a Grand Slam in their WC winning year and a triple crown the prev year. They done this with a pretty settled team, coming to their peak culminating in the WC win which was Clives ambition. Post WC, the goal should have been to bring through the new faces over a couple of seasons.
Bringing in older players as a stop gap since winning the WC has proved fruitless. At least blooding a younger side with a look to the future would mean that the losses would serve to instill the experience required to compete at the highest level.
Ireland have done this and while have not won anything of note as of yet (bar triple crowns) they can compete at the highest level. Obviously their structure has helped but there is plenty of emerging talent in England.
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Even with all the changes, I don't think England are in a position to beat anyone, let alone France. They will have to play alot better then they have in the past two years to stand any chance.
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Even with all the changes, I don't think England are in a position to beat anyone, let alone France. They will have to play alot better then they have in the past two years to stand any chance.
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I think what England (and Ireland) need to ensure that France lose is some trademark French illdiscipline of the France side in the 90's.
The English might stand a chance against 14 or 13 men.
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Why is that non-English rugby fans (or "ABE" as #185 puts it) think that English fans believe we have a divine right to win every game we play. Get real! We are English rugby fans, not soccer supporters!
Why does there seem to be such an inferiority complex amongst so many of the non-English? Every passionate fan wants their team to win every match, but that's not the same as a divine expectation. Did I want England to beat Ireland? Of course I did! Did I expect it? Of course not!
There is no doubt that England got it wrong following RWC03 and we are now a helluva long way behind the best teams - particularly the tri-Nations, France and Ireland. More power to the Irish for getting it so right - so far that is.
I sincerely hope that England make the QFs in October but my expectation doesn't go any further than that. That doesn't me any less passionate or committed a fan. Just a realist, even though everyone knows God is an Englishman!
Enjoy your rugby, support your team with a passion, be realistic; and if you are Irish - enjoy the good times while you can. Success is easy to imagine, great to savour and hard to sustain - as every English fan will tell you.
Remember - treat people kindly on the way up so they remember you with a similar kindness on the way down.
Good luck to Ireland in the Autumn. I really hope you win the Cup (England won't). I won't call it a divine right though. Work hard enough and then put it down to the luck of the Irish!
Oh! And good luck to Catt and the boys on Sunday. England expects............ a creditable performance, nothing more!
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Dr Bullit - Scotland did beat France last year but France still won the six nations championship. It's not a consecutive Grand Slam the article was referring to but a consecutive six nations title.
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England has always been the team I supported after Ireland and I wish Brian Ashton and his team well next Sunday. That said, France will take them to the cleaners because they are so strong in all positions. I'm afraid it's going to be another embarrassing afternoon for England. France played a superior brand of rugby in the first 20 mins at Croke Park - a brand which only the All Blacks could improve on at present. Still, England is still a land of hope and glory!
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I support England passionately in any sport but particularly rugby which is my main love. So believe me when I say that I don't want an England rugby team to lose.....again.
But you have to see the big picture. Most of this team are in their autumn years and some are in their winter!
What will the effect be on the long-term health of English rugby if we some how manage to scrape a miraculous win on Sunday with this team?
All it means is that those players are one game closer to retirement and the young talent are one game older without gaining experience. Is that good preparation for building a team which is top of world rugby in the lead up to WC 2011?
I like Ashton and his attitude but I can't help thinking that he has fallen into the trap of thinking too short-term.
That said of course I will be behind the boys in white 100% on Sunday.
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Knee Jerk Reaction seems to be the order of the day, consistency seems to be an ideal dissapearing fast.
Let's look from a coach's perspective, you've lost your captain at Lock and your talisman at Fly, you're facing arguably the best team in the competition, albeit at home, what do you do?
The answer seems to be a mix of youngsters and veterans, my thoughts and i am a Gloucester man so do excuse my preferences:
On the wing James Simpson Daniel is without equal, look back to the 2003 investec and it was him that set up Cohen every time, look at him now, the one score for Gloucester at the weekend, how can he not be in contention, i've never seen such a talent.
Fly Half, Ryan Lamb is as good as any of the youngesters yet routinely overlooked,
In the centre, Anthoney Allen, Gloucestere's young light, (and they haven't got to third in the premiership by luck)is just what they need, another 2006 young international cast by the wayside.
Jmaes Forrester, the form No 8 in the premiership, Robbo should be down on one kneee begging this guy to play.
Lastly, a 6'6" 19 Stone winger, guess what we've got one, he's bigger than Lomu and shrugs off tackles, Karl Pryce should be warming up at TW now.
OK i accept a one sided view but something radical is needed and fast.
Good luck is all we can hope for on Sat
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It's all very well relying on Mike Catt to get us out of our current difficulties, but relying on our World Cup 2003 veterans is a short term fix to a long term problem. We should be trying to make the best out of a bad situation (i.e the current spate of injuries) to get some younger members of the squad some experience in the international arena.
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I don't agree with the stuff about Catt. The mistake is not bringing him back - it was not having him there whenever he was fit enough to play. He has always added a creative spark that we otherwise seem to lack. He could have helped bring on the plethora of young talented backs we have had in this country whose confidence has been destroyed by brief unsuccesful Englad careers with Robinson at the helm. With Wilkinson injured for so long and Hodgson never seeming at ease in an England jersey, who has been there to stabilise things and provide a calm old head for the young players to build their game around?
As for short term fix, well how long do you think the World Cup is away? Used correctly this short term fix could provide the time needed to gel some of the younger players into the International scene, after the World Cup there is time again to continue the building job, but for now, we would like to offer some kind of serious attempt at retaining our World Cup!
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I am as patriotic as they come but even I have got to admit that England are in a right mess at the moment. The simple fact is that after the WC we lost players who would pretty much walk into another team in the planet (Leonard, Johnson, Back etc) and you just can't replace these guys at will, they were great leaders who did all the hard yards and we simply world class.
With regards to the team selected, White must play as he is the best scrummager, that is his primary objective, I know he isn't going to dance in with a 50 yeard try but I don't care as long as he does his job at scrum time.
Corry at lock - not a bad choice, some of the others must be wondering what they have to do to get in the team but he is too slow at 8 although is a key line out man and also does the ugly work so it could be worse.
Catt - Could prove to be a good addition but Ashton is taking a big gamble bringing in a guy who is a calls player but hasn't played international rugby for years and then to make him captain, what's that all about??
Ellis - Must be given a good chance at SH, mainly because of the lack of competition. He has good potential.
Scoreline - France win by 15 points
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I am as patriotic as they come but even I have got to admit that England are in a right mess at the moment. The simple fact is that after the WC we lost players who would pretty much walk into another team in the planet (Leonard, Johnson, Back etc) and you just can't replace these guys at will, they were great leaders who did all the hard yards and we simply world class.
With regards to the team selected, White must play as he is the best scrummager, that is his primary objective, I know he isn't going to dance in with a 50 yeard try but I don't care as long as he does his job at scrum time.
Corry at lock - not a bad choice, some of the others must be wondering what they have to do to get in the team but he is too slow at 8 although is a key line out man and also does the ugly work so it could be worse.
Catt - Could prove to be a good addition but Ashton is taking a big gamble bringing in a guy who is a calls player but hasn't played international rugby for years and then to make him captain, what's that all about??
Ellis - Must be given a good chance at SH, mainly because of the lack of competition. He has good potential.
Scoreline - France win by 15 points
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I am as patriotic as they come but even I have got to admit that England are in a right mess at the moment. The simple fact is that after the WC we lost players who would pretty much walk into another team in the planet (Leonard, Johnson, Back etc) and you just can't replace these guys at will, they were great leaders who did all the hard yards and we simply world class.
With regards to the team selected, White must play as he is the best scrummager, that is his primary objective, I know he isn't going to dance in with a 50 yeard try but I don't care as long as he does his job at scrum time.
Corry at lock - not a bad choice, some of the others must be wondering what they have to do to get in the team but he is too slow at 8 although is a key line out man and also does the ugly work so it could be worse.
Catt - Could prove to be a good addition but Ashton is taking a big gamble bringing in a guy who is a calls player but hasn't played international rugby for years and then to make him captain, what's that all about??
Ellis - Must be given a good chance at SH, mainly because of the lack of competition. He has good potential.
Scoreline - France win by 15 points
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Speaking as a Welsh fan; whatever England's result against France, I don't want to see Mike Catt lining up against us the next weekend.
I think that says it all.
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If Catt is such a GREAT player, why wasn't he picked before? Never misses a kick to touch, never misses a tackle, does he walk on water as well? Seem to remember him being booed by that discerning croud at Twickenham,not so long ago. But then I thought it was only Stephen Jones of The Times was related to him. Guess I was wrong.
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Catt never was and never will be a player of international standard. He is in the same league as someone like Caleb Ralph, good club player but lacks at international level. Not once has he fired against an international team of note.
If England bring back Catt, then maybe the All blacks should bring back Grant Fox,Sean Fitzpatrick, Zinzan Brook and a few others to level the playing field.
Tis a shame but until the powers that be pull there head from the sand and stop believing there own hype there will always be the issue of club vs country vs politics.
Time check to be had now, you not that good, haven't been for sometime and no soloution to the problem has been put forward
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Who's actually going to kick the goals for England on Saturday? You can't win an international game of rugby without an international goal-kicker! He might not be the best full-back in the world but Van Gisbergen should have been given a look-in for this reason.
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I have seen several posts stating that none of the England team would get into the French XV or even their squad. However, arguably the two best french players in the 6N so far have been Raphael Ibanez, and Sebastien Chabal.
Ibanez, plays hooker at Wasps, sharing the place with Joe Ward, and often starts as a replacement. When he does start, he plays alongside Tim Payne, and Phil Vickery. Behind him are 5 other English players: Shaw, Palmer, Worsley, Rees, Haskell/Dallaglio. He is not a cut above the rest of his team.
Chabal, plays No. 8 at Sale, starting alongside Magnus Lund and Chris Jones. They play as a pack, and Chabal does not steal the show in any sense. He plays under the captaincy of Robinson and Cueto.
Therefore, I think it is ridiculous to suggest that it is down to personnel that England are not playing better rugby. They have a massive pool of players, despite the infestation of foreign oldies in the Premiership, and a massive amount of talent. It is the team play that is letting them down. France and Ireland have specific game plans, and each player knows their role within it. England must work incredibly hard to get to this stage. But it will take time.
Ashton is the right man for the job.
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Lets face it Ashton is right we are truely second divison (although I hate to admit it!). Good to see your own weaknesses Brian.
Knee jerk selections bringing in good club players is one thing but developing a settled side that we all can pick week in week out is what we need (like the Irish). Until we get a long term vision of things we are are going to mediocre for the foreseeable future + the clubs need to let the players rest between the 6 nations games as this week sorely reflects. Not convinced Ashton is the man for this.
Hoping for a surprise on Saturday but done see it happening - think that I'll spend my time checking the family tree for French decendants
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Lets face it Ashton is right we are truely second divison (although I hate to admit it!). Good to see your own weaknesses Brian.
Knee jerk selections bringing in good club players is one thing but developing a settled side that we all can pick week in week out is what we need (like the Irish). Until we get a long term vision of things we are are going to mediocre for the foreseeable future + the clubs need to let the players rest between the 6 nations games as this week sorely reflects. Not convinced Ashton is the man for this.
Hoping for a surprise on Saturday but done see it happening - think that I'll spend my time checking the family tree for French decendants
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Post no. 23 (King Ludwig II of Bavaria) wrote:"I can't beleive all the great work that Woodwood achieved has just been thrown away. England are in a mess right now and i'm just very sad :-("
It is precisely because of Woodward (and the board at the RFU) that we are in this mess. Whilst his preparation and attention to detail was second to none and a contributing factor to victory at WC 2003 his vision and plans beyond Sydney were non-existent. We had a superb squad of players in 2003 but a very high percentage were always going to retire after the WC and Woodward soon realized in the 8 months post WC that he had not introduced a new generation of players and England were in for a tough time. He left a sinking ship to Andy Robinson (who was not the man for the job anyway). Let鈥檚 face it 鈥 no one leaves a team that is successful 鈥 Woodward would have stayed if England continued to dominate.
At last we are seeing signs (albeit slight) that the RFU are starting to think beyond immediate gains (both silverware and financial). Ashton should be 80% focused on winning 鈥渢he next game鈥 and 20% looking to develop players for the future.
This is where Rob Andrew must earn his money and make sure we have continuity and planning in terms of players and coaching staff. Not to mention the club country debacle鈥
Let鈥檚 hope Mike Catt can do for us against France this weekend what he did in WC 2003 against Wales鈥
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Post no. 23 (King Ludwig II of Bavaria) wrote:"I can't beleive all the great work that Woodwood achieved has just been thrown away. England are in a mess right now and i'm just very sad :-("
It is precisely because of Woodward (and the board at the RFU) that we are in this mess. Whilst his preparation and attention to detail was second to none and a contributing factor to victory at WC 2003 his vision and plans beyond Sydney were non-existent. We had a superb squad of players in 2003 but a very high percentage were always going to retire after the WC and Woodward soon realized in the 8 months post WC that he had not introduced a new generation of players and England were in for a tough time. He left a sinking ship to Andy Robinson (who was not the man for the job anyway). Let鈥檚 face it 鈥 no one leaves a team that is successful 鈥 Woodward would have stayed if England continued to dominate.
At last we are seeing signs (albeit slight) that the RFU are starting to think beyond immediate gains (both silverware and financial). Ashton should be 80% focused on winning 鈥渢he next game鈥 and 20% looking to develop players for the future.
This is where Rob Andrew must earn his money and make sure we have continuity and planning in terms of players and coaching staff. Not to mention the club country debacle鈥
Let鈥檚 hope Mike Catt can do for us against France this weekend what he did in WC 2003 against Wales鈥
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Post no. 23 (King Ludwig II of Bavaria) wrote:"I can't beleive all the great work that Woodwood achieved has just been thrown away. England are in a mess right now and i'm just very sad :-("
It is precisely because of Woodward (and the board at the RFU) that we are in this mess. Whilst his preparation and attention to detail was second to none and a contributing factor to victory at WC 2003 his vision and plans beyond Sydney were non-existent. We had a superb squad of players in 2003 but a very high percentage were always going to retire after the WC and Woodward soon realized in the 8 months post WC that he had not introduced a new generation of players and England were in for a tough time. He left a sinking ship to Andy Robinson (who was not the man for the job anyway). Let鈥檚 face it 鈥 no one leaves a team that is successful 鈥 Woodward would have stayed if England continued to dominate.
At last we are seeing signs (albeit slight) that the RFU are starting to think beyond immediate gains (both silverware and financial). Ashton should be 80% focused on winning 鈥渢he next game鈥 and 20% looking to develop players for the future.
This is where Rob Andrew must earn his money and make sure we have continuity and planning in terms of players and coaching staff. Not to mention the club country debacle鈥
Let鈥檚 hope Mike Catt can do for us against France this weekend what he did in WC 2003 against Wales鈥
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Post no. 23 (King Ludwig II of Bavaria) wrote:"I can't beleive all the great work that Woodwood achieved has just been thrown away. England are in a mess right now and i'm just very sad :-("
It is precisely because of Woodward (and the board at the RFU) that we are in this mess. Whilst his preparation and attention to detail was second to none and a contributing factor to victory at WC 2003 his vision and plans beyond Sydney were non-existent. We had a superb squad of players in 2003 but a very high percentage were always going to retire after the WC and Woodward soon realized in the 8 months post WC that he had not introduced a new generation of players and England were in for a tough time. He left a sinking ship to Andy Robinson (who was not the man for the job anyway). Let鈥檚 face it 鈥 no one leaves a team that is successful 鈥 Woodward would have stayed if England continued to dominate.
At last we are seeing signs (albeit slight) that the RFU are starting to think beyond immediate gains (both silverware and financial). Ashton should be 80% focused on winning 鈥渢he next game鈥 and 20% looking to develop players for the future.
This is where Rob Andrew must earn his money and make sure we have continuity and planning in terms of players and coaching staff. Not to mention the club country debacle鈥
Let鈥檚 hope Mike Catt can do for us against France this weekend what he did in WC 2003 against Wales鈥
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How do these comments work? There are lots of double entries - I think it comes from page locking up when you 'post', so you post again but both get through.
That suggests no one is personally monitoring each mail, however some of mine haven't got through. i.e. for this blog I wrote one about the irony of the Irish fans suddenly loving England and wanting us to win the next game (would that have been the case if this game had been in the first week?).
Is there some terrible Orwellian word filter in place on these blogs that decides what can and can't be posted on the basis of certain perfectly acceptable words taken in the wrong context?
...computer says no!
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France are going to win this game & I don't think many people doubt it.
Bringing in Mike Catt & shifting the team around smells of desperation after a complete disaster against Ireland. Considering the French are stronger at home & have beaten the Irish, England really don't stand a chance.
Good luck to old Catty though. I'm sure he'll give it his best.
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Chris -219
"It is precisely because of Woodward (and the board at the RFU) that we are in this mess. 鈥.his vision and plans beyond Sydney were non-existent."
I find this ridiculous. What was SCW supposed to do, not play his best team in the WC and the build up and risk not winning, just so we could prepare for the next one? One reason we won the WC was the consistency of the team. It wouldn鈥檛 have mattered if all 15 retired afterwards so long as we won, never take that away from SCW.
Post world cup we had 4 years to prepare again, that should have been enough time. I think SCW or AR managed that aspect very badly. They should have had a four year plan but I think they experienced unexpected pressure, as reining world champions, to get results, and thus they select old hands instead of risking too many new faces. Also, it must be hard, emotionally, to drop a world cup winner from your team.
Don鈥檛 blame it on a set up that won the world cup, that鈥檚 ludicrous, a manager should do whatever is best to win a world cup. We got it wrong AFTER the world cup.
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I would have thought the better option was Catt at 10 (as the experienced alternative to Wilkinson) and developing a new mid-field combination - Tindall and Tait, or Allen and Tait.
Farrell should be developed as a loose forward impact reserve. Run-ups and offloads and defence.
Moving Corry to the middle row is admission that while England needs his experience, it must also develop a pack premised on mobility.
Payne, Chuter and White/Vickery, Palmer and Corry/Jones and Rees, Worsley and Moody.
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Right, as far as I'm concerned I'm getting pretty bored of people writing the same old rubbish about whose injured and who is not. The key at the moment is to pick a side made up of players who consistently perform for their clubs.
Fine Corry is not officially a second row, but look at his attributes, hard working, strong, a good jumper it seems to me that it could very well possess the right skills to make the grade. Tim Payne is another player who routinely performs for his club, and who in the 3 internationals he has played as punched above his weight. The same can be said for Tome Rees, incredible in the loose, fearless and quick, Tom Palmer, see tom rees, and Nick Easter see him!!. We want a nasty pack against the french and that is what we've got, Easter, Corry, Payne and White all have a mean streak within them that we will need, in a controlled manner, to be displayed on Sunday.
Harry Ellis is a doggish link between the forwards and the backs possessing the cockiness a scrum half needs and the ability to control the pack. In Toby Flood we have a young player who with the experience shadowed by the experience of Catt and Tindall will hopefully display his full potential. In the back 3 we have Lewsey and Robinson, need I say more and Strettle who was probably our best player in that dia display against the Irish.
Posted by: Simon | March 8, 2007 01:36 PM
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I like Ashton and I think that he has made some good decisions.
What I don't like is players playing out of position. What is Corry doing in the second row. Are there no other second rows in the Premiership?
One that springs to mind is Alex Brown. He has had a really good season so far and a great 2007 and deserves a chance. As we move to the World Cup we shouldn't be playing people out of position, but giving fresh, hungry, quality players a chance.
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I think like most fans I don't like to see England lose - fact! I also like most fans like nothing more than to see a young face burst onto the international scene and set the world alight.
I think Ashton should be applauded for his sensable and sensitive use of youngsters. He has not always gone for the obvious options and his faith in Strettle, Easter and Rees have been well repaid. However, we should note that none of the new caps under BA have been given them as an experiment or in an effort to try and blood lots of new faces until some stick. Players have been picked on form and what BA sees in training.
Personally I would like to see Tait outside Catt as I think it would add a better balance. However, even though I have never liked the player I have no problem with playing Catt and am behind him 100%. His age is irrelevant - don't forget BA would have seen the likes of Allen training back in the Autumn and games for Gloucs since and one thing that BA's selection so far has shown is a keen eye. I doubt many bar the keenest of rugby watchers would have noticed Nick Easter developing - he was a brave selection.
I would argue that BA has been consistent. Firstly in approach - he has consistantly selected players on form. The selection looks less consistant due to injury to Vickery, Wilko and Farrell but I would also include in that list Borthwick as I am sure that he would have started in stead of Corry had he been fit. Take those selections, with the possible exception of Farrell, out of the changes and it looks much more like fine tunning than panic.
The most important thing about BA to me is that unlike Robinson the players want to play for him. I know the red rose should be enough but it is not. Ask yourself why top players retired/made themselves unavailable for Robinson.
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Ah, the arrogant English, having the affrontery to admit being a 'second division' side and then changing a losing team, the Celtic (lunatic) fringe must wonder if they're hearing right.
Rebuilding should have begun in 2003. We have the players but we don't have the team. I have huge respect for Martin Corry but he's not Martin Johnson and without Lol, Back and Hill we haven't looked quite as balanced in the back row. Joe Worsley has the talent, as do both Lund and Rees, but they either lack experience at the highest level or consistency.
Ben Kay and Danny Grewcock aren't the formidable paring they once were and the others with international experience are either injured, out of form or too old. Brian Ashton can only work with what's out there and the Premiership may be the richest league in the world but all too often the standard of rugby isn't as good as it should be.
Mike Catt is a tremendously versatile player and has played just about everywhere through the back line including fullback for England and always given it his best shot but I can't help thinking this s retrograde step. He won't let us down but he won't lead us into the future either.
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How Toby Flood is a professional rugby player let alone an international is beyond me. New game - count the intercepts he throws!!
England will lose heavily.
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i think it shows that England don't have the depth they have talked about over the years. the pack look ok but i fail to see a real threat like the french have in ibanez or their back row.
Half backs look weak and will be targeted by the french, why not chose gerhety to go with catt as they play together.
Finally, Strelle looks promising but Lewsey is off form and JR is not what he was 4 years ago and is a unlikely to get very far against the french back 3 which could well over power in attack and defence.
If France turn up it could be a very 1-sided match
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Re: 213
I agree and also the ABs don't need to wheel out the oldies as there are plenty more younger players waiting for their chance to be in the team.
That's a big motivation for any player in the ABs.
Where are the next generation of players in this country?? They can't keep bringing back these old guys.
It'd be like bringing back Buck Shelford....Hey, there's an idea...
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How can anybody make a comment on Lewsey? The only thing he did was make covering tackles. Through no fault of his own, he never got the ball. Nobody ran at him or kicked to him. Anybody saying that Lewsey is out of form must have been watching a different game to me. He could've gone looking for work but that would have required England having some decent ball. If I was him, I wouldn't have bothered either. He maybe best at wing but since Robinson is the only other person in contention for the 15 shirt Lewsey's talent on the flank must be sacrificed for playing him at full back.
Unless France somehow crumble, which I don't envisage happening, the following will happen: White's much-vaunted scrummaging will turn out again to be nothing but hype; Corry's move to lock will result in a total failure in an already-failing lineout; Betsen will harass Ellis, Flood and Catt into making mistakes; Rees and Easter will be tied up easily by the French back row; Chabal will make the hard yards and more for France; and England's backline will be reduced to defending and kicking as they receive stream after stream of poor ball.
And before anybody accuses me of being Celtic, I'm from Shropshire and live in Sheffield. I'm just being realistic.
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I've read a lot of people write off Catt. I'm glad he will get the chance to play. If anyone watched the England Saxons vs Ireland game about 3 weeks ago they would have seen him put in a very good performance and create a well worked try. He may be a bit on the old side but he has a lot of experience and that will count for a lot in a high pressure game.
As an Irishman, I'm hoping that England can create a similar atmosphere to the one we created it Croke Park. If they can do that and play a high pressure game they might have a chance to win it.
France have a history of performing badly away from home, but only if the other team gets in their face right from the beginning. Hit them hard right from the start and plenty of high balls to test the full back early on.
That said, this is a great French side and they will be hard to beat, but England are due a big performance.
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England used to be ahead in physicality. Their players were bigger and very strong and matches used to be like wrestling contests when teams like Ireland would eventually get completely exhausted going into the last quarter nevering having got too far out of their own half.. The other countries have now either caught up physically or developed technique to counter this and have back-lines that can score and tries rather than rely on penalties. England without this former advantage don't seem to know what to do. I really really hope England beat France - (with Ireland beating Scotland) - or at least give them a good game but one fears the worst. For the longer term don't England have to rethink their game plan? - progress their attacking backs - sort their forwards out - Ashton will have lots to do........
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England used to be ahead in physicality. Their players were bigger and very strong and matches used to be like wrestling contests when teams like Ireland would eventually get completely exhausted going into the last quarter nevering having got too far out of their own half.. The other countries have now either caught up physically or developed technique to counter this and have back-lines that can score and tries rather than rely on penalties. England without this former advantage don't seem to know what to do. I really really hope England beat France - (with Ireland beating Scotland) - or at least give them a good game but one fears the worst. For the longer term don't England have to rethink their game plan? - progress their attacking backs - sort their forwards out - Ashton will have lots to do........
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My congratulations to the RFU and their management team.
At last they have selected an England team capable of winning the, 'Wooden Spoon' outright.
They may not manage it in the current, 'Six Nations' competition but I have every hope for the future.
And don't write them off come the World Cup. It will be difficult I know, but with lack of spirit and more selection bungling, that mythical spoon may yet come our way.
From first to last in four years....Wow! Like I said, 'My congratulations to the RFU'.
AN ADDED NOTE: I shall not be pulling on my climbing boots and tackling the North Face of Twickenham for a third time this year. What with the pixy seats and the fact that when someone wanted to use the toilet twenty of us had to stand up in unison in order to release that someone from a group wedge, I have discovered that travelling on the tube train at the height of the rush-hour is a more relaxing entertainment....And a lot cheaper.
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# 230. I've not been watching properly but exactly how many intercepts has he thrown. In my knowledge just the 1, but please put me right if there have been any more.
Who would you have played at 10? Everyone's prone to a mistake or 2, better in a "friendly" against Argentina than a world cup semi.
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#237. My congatulations to you sir for the most spineless blog posting ive ever come across.
Our current England team may lack age and experience but i have no doubt that come the World Cup they will out perform everyones expections, especially yours.
Whilst i admit it is hard to imagine them winning, they will, by then, be capable of playing the kind of Rugby which will see us progress beyond the group stages at least. I suggest you make sure you have a wooden spoon of your own close at hand come November, you may find it comes in handy upon having to consume a rather large slice of humble pie.
AN ADDED NOTE: I wouldn't worry about returning to Twickenham if i were you. If after having stood through the national anthem sung by 75000-plus people, and seen England play, the only thing you recall is the discomfort caused by a little light exercise i shouldn't imagine anyone there will want you back.
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By reading these blogs I am deafened by number of messages write (awkwardly) by false French, probably by Irishmen, about the match England France.
Messages which would be liked offensive or arrogant for the majority, that to urge on hatred anti-French among English. I liked the Irishmen, like the majority of the French, I discover a whole fanatic, tribal aspect and nationalist who makes me change opinion on their subject.
They bring a spirit of Italian football in this sport. What should not be.
(sorry for my English i am a real French)
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I expect to see this English pack play with much more aggression at then breakdown and be far more competitive in set pieces than they were in Dublin.
An English pack with a point to prove is always a dangerous combination for any international team travelling to Twickenham.
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Wow watching this Engalnd V France game the All Blacks must be licking their lips. Atrocious!
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Thank you England for restoring my confidence that Grand Slams are not won by fluke. My Anglophilia will not be long lasting..... approximately a week!
Cymru am Byth
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Before you all start screaming, remember the French were atrocious, and the Irish beat yis 43:13 hihiihi. It's a one off. I expect England to be coming home early from the WC
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Once again england has shown that the englismen are not the gentlemen they pretend to be.
the attack on david skrella twice was deliberatly made. he was wounded on purpose for england to conveniently win. Cant anyone see this ?
the sequence where the english player was kicking David on his ankles is clear on tv.
is this selective only when the english like to make it obvious there is an injustice in a game for them ?
The french play it fair and its a shame for the english not to observe this.
Even if it is admitted by the referee, the english always have their way, especially when the English 'shine' their shoes on a french player. I have not seen a french do this in a similiar situation.
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well done england how did you get away with that......the french were as bad as england have been in france the last two visits to paris
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The most amusing performance of the day was Brian Moore's extraordinary commentary....especially his comments about injured French players...he obviously still adores our Gallic neighbours!
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I am writing to express my disappointment and anger with a comment made by one of the 主播大秀 Rugby Match commentator. I quote: "He is French, I don't care". This comment was made when, in the 16th minute, an English player walked onto a French player... I thought it was totally unnecessary and rude/offensive towards the French! I think if we want our 2 countries to get on with each other, these kind of comments need to be avoided publicly, especially on national tv! There is a big French community in England which i am sure felt the same way as i did!
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Well done England on a fantastic win against the French. As an Irishman I am doubly grateful as with just a 4 point difference between Ireland and France now, we are in with a chance at the championship with a good display against the Italians who I must admit will be no pushovers. I can see Scotland though having a great go at the French!! Come on Scotland!!! I feel sorry for Wales as the wooden spoon will be theirs but it would be good for rugby to see England win their last game too. Whatever happens it will be a very exciting weekend!
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is that the name of the commentator? I call him Johnny Vegas because thats what he sounds like.
His one eyed comments are not very professional.
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Well done the boys!! Prooved all the pundits wrong and denied the French the ball. Just need to build on this against Wales and not fall off the pace again. I think we will sneak it in wales.
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I don't know why no one gives England a chance of winning the 6N. If France beat Scotland by 20 points and and Ireland beat Italy by 24 points then we only need to beat Wales by 50 points... ;)
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By God, but about 95% of the posts on this board are tripe.
I'm always amazed at the confidence with which people, who obviously know sweet fa about the game of rugby, can put forward views as if gospel. So much subjective opinion with so very little knowledge of the game.
Bravo Ashton, Bravo England.
Does anybody know how to get knuckle impressions out of living room walls? (Inflicted Rocky Balboa style about five seconds after Tindall scored the second England try?!).
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Brian Moore should be sacked for his comment 15m25s into the game "he's French so I don't care" when debating whether or not the shoeing of the French was legal. Even if this is his opinion he is getting paid a substantial fee I am sure by the 主播大秀 and this is blatant racism and shouldn't be tolerated! He is well known for his biased commentary but this was Absolutely Apalling!
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P.224 - "Before you all start screaming, remember the French were atrocious, and the Irish beat yis 43:13 hihiihi."
How about a bit of gratitude? We just made it possible for the Irish to win this year. Something they were incapable of doing by themselves, sadly. The game is 80 minutes long - Vincent Clerc remembered this, but the entire Irish team seemed to think it finished at 77. So sad...
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C'mon all the Gaels & Celts next week!
Scotland will have a point to prove against the threat of picking up a wooden spoon. Then again, they could just roll over & get riddled. I hope not.
Ireland for the trophy.
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P.245 - Couple of sour grapes there, old chap. Can't imagine that would make good-tasting wine.
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Pundit20 I know you have very little to celebrate for years so I can imagine that you did indeed celebrate a rare england try.
Congrats on the win by the way.
All the best ,too-ra, toodle-pip.
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Re No.7 post
You were saying?!!
PS
Sorry you lost your bet - NOT!!!
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England play atrociously, Ireland deservedly win by a handsome margin and are magnificent. France play atrociously, England win deservedly and are lucky. You can't have it both ways poster 244.
Regarding 'Gentlemanly conduct', i find it amazing that some people think their team don't kick, hit or punch the opposition. Every team in the 6 nations are guilty of doing it, to think otherwise is ludicrous.
Congratulations to Ireland for winning the triple crown, lets hope the best team win the championship in the final round of matches.
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As an Englishman living in Paris and have been for many years I have grown accustomed to the blantly racist and nationalistic comments of the French commentators during a Six Nations match notably a French / England match. I don't get the english commentaries and as such did not hear the Brian Moore commment. Whatever if that is what he said shame on him, as an expat I am ashamed We expect the 主播大秀 in all it's forms to be totally above these sorts of comments. On a brighter note well done England you surprised us all
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p245: rubbish.
Skrela's second injury came from him not rolling away after he made a tackle. He rolled over the English player's legs to stop quick ball. Lazy running and lying offside seemed to have been a coached tactic for Les Bleus today. Betsen always does it, but about half the team followed his example, Kaplan kept shouting about it but only penalised it once.
Re: Brian Moore. He'd have been preferable to the commentary on RTE. Two garrulous jokers who punctuated every stoppage with yet another boring statistic about O'Gara.
Finally. How did Jonathan Kaplan get to the dizzy heights he's reached with so little knowledge of the forward game. He's unable to manage the front or back rows in the tight. He's poorly positioned at the lineout and he's inconsistent at r&m. He's probably the fastest ref in the iRB's stable but that doesn't help when he makes the wrong decisions when he's standing still.
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Jon - Post 255
Thank you for your informative lecture on the length of rugby matches, (which can last beyond 80 mins on occasion)
Perhaps you would care to remember that at Croke Park, your players acted as if they would have happily hit the showers after 40, to be frank.
So Ireland have a Triple Crown and England don't...so sad
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WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
- An Englishmen
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Am I alone in thinking that the coverage of this match was abysmal? At least 3 times we were denied coverage of the live action because we were still being treated to a replay of previous action. Add to that some 'interesting' camera angles and I am increasingly beginning to wonder of the previous loss of the coverage to Sky meant that all the rugby-savvy directors defected at that time too.
As for the commentary - a lot of it's been covered, but the slapstick double act that is Moore and Butler has long since become irritating. In particular, Moore's constant grinding of his "that put-in's never straight" axe, whilst nice to hear once, has now become boring. Still, at least this week he's obviously read a law book (at long last) and regaled us all with the correct definition of a ruck; sadly his partner crime seemed to think that a ruck followed open play, rather than following a tackle. Keep trying boys!
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To Caleb D
Sorry, would have replied earlier but had to hang up my bowler and brolly, having paid off the Morris-Dancers....
You were very nearly gracious in your comments, but spoilt it with the stereotype finish - with English people, never confuse eloquence with so called class - a big mistake.
Back to the rugby - Rees came of age today - Winterbottom and Back rolled into one, and faster than both.
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Can I just say how proud I am of Brain Moore and his comments. It's what the French deserve.
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complaints about Brian Moore - yeah ok you're right; but sorry you don't understand the game if you want to get all PC about him; we all know he's a prat but he's great entertainment.
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Lol, thanks I liked your response.
Looking forward to the RWC this year for non stop rugby action!
Ps I'm happy for England that Jonny is back playing. He's a truly talented player appreciated world over and a nice guy to boot.
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** GREAT win from England, couldn't have been more surprised by the turn around in performance. We played with the passion and fire that has been tragically missing from our game, long may it continue.
To all those Irish patting themsleves on the back for winning the TC, well done guys thoroughly deserved, but it's the only trophy this great Irish team is likely to win.
To the Boyos, can understand why you're so peeved at the ref, but you are looking for excuses. If you'd kicked for goal and got the draw what then, the possibility of sharing the Wooden spoon?!
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To Sean at 263:
You are not alone in thinking that the English players had wanted hit the showers at 40 minutes. Many of us wished they had. Uncontested, the Irish team may have become embarrassed at repeatedly passing amongst themselves and wandering over our line to score tries, and actually given up before the score they recorded went into the books. So sad.
Ireland have the Triple Crown, not the first in recent years, and are to be congratulated. I need no reminding of that.
They do not, however, have the World Cup. We may not play like a team who deserves it - frankly, since a few retirements took place, we *aren't* a team that deserves it - but we *do* have it. And the match in question went on for longer than 80 minutes, as you correctly point out can occasionally happen. The Triple Crown is...well, nice. I'm sure you're very happy with it. But the World Cup is the real thing, and I'm afraid we're only borrowing it from the Southern Hemisphere at the moment, because nothing I've seen this year in the 6N has inspired me to think otherwise - not every match in the WC will start with your players blubbing in Croke Park, and the French at least keep their eyes on the clock until it runs out.
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How come, England beat France and "France didn't turn up" , but Ireland beat a woeful England side and call it "a thrashing of the World Cghampions"?
Is it the Irish contingent clutching at straws? Convincing yourselves you'll make it out of your worldcup group? No chance.
My prediction is that Ireland will make the earliest world cup exit of the 主播大秀 nations.
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HAHAHAHAHA
To be fair I thought we'd get stuffed.
That makes the victory 10 times sweeter.
If my team are playing and the opposition are cheating I "...don't care..." if they get shoed either.
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to post 272: You really don't have a clue do ya, pathetic!!!!!!!!!!
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