Ö÷²¥´óÐã

I'm not a fan of Kevin Smith's back catalogue but 'Red State' is excellent

Absolutely. I was really bored by Cop Out, and disappointed with how demographically-oriented it clearly was, and how much of a mess that seemed to make it in the editing.

I've been looking forward to Red State for 3 or 4 years, and have been following the production over the last year or two via Smith's SModcast network, and like you say, while I have problems with the film, there's a huge amount which I really like about it, and I have real admiration for Kevin's work ethic. The fiercely independent release scheme, "indie film 2.0" as he calls it, the embracing of day and date release, the understanding that filmmakers should be interested in getting their work seen, not searching for the ego boost of a big cinema premiere, his sacrificing View Askew memorabilia to pay for future film releases....

In many ways it's KS making a point to the many wannabe young filmmakers who'd come to him for a handout. It's proof that not only can one work harder than even they might think to get a film seen, but also that just because someone makes in-roads into the industry (and while not a blockbuster filmmaker, Smith has a solid audience), if they want to continue making films exactly as they want even a seemingly secure director needs to sacrifice.

Red State's really interesting, but certainly flawed. But I have such goodwill towards Kevin Smith that I can ignore these problems.

Cop Out had to happen, as I felt Kevin believed the hype people bestowed upon him. That he is the indie darling, the free spirit that could do no wrong, icon of the geek. After an entertaining mid-mainstream stab with Jay & Silent Bob Strikes Back several years back, and few guest stars (Die Hard 2.0, Daredevil) the studios thought it was time they bring him into their clan and back him fully.

Cop Out seemed such a no brainer for entertainment, Bruce doing his dry witted, straight guy stiq alongside the funny man of the moment - Tracy Morgan. Sadly with them having zero chemistry, a script that was only good to be toilet-paper and phoned- in direction, Cop Out seemed just be the description of what Kevin Smith did - Copped out of his talent and rested back in his lazy boy chair thinking the money and praise would just roll on its own.

But after having his fingers burned, Red State looks brilliant, Kevin seems to have his mojo back.

People seem to forget Kevin Smith did not Write Cop Out

He was making a couple of bad films before Cop Out with Clerks 2 for example which felt like Harvey Weinstein begged him to do, to help his ailing "The Weinstein Company" as some of his films like Grindhouse which cost a lot to make flopped big time.
I also think he did Cop Out because it was a chance to work with Bruce Willis who he got along with on Die Hard 4 but during filming Cop Out they clearly didn't along with each other from what Kevin Smith has said in a radio interview somewhere.
I think Kevin Smith making critics pay to watch the film simply because of negative reviews is silly...but having said that he has had critics being petty to him with Joel Siegel storming out, shouting and making a scene of his own.



Which is something you have done Dr Kermode btw ;) but you had a more valid reason in my view as Lars Von Trier is a really good troll and The Idiots deserved it.

Upstairs at the Cambridge Union?

I don't agree that Clerks 2 was one of the bad Kevin Smith films. It had Jeff Anderson as Randall, who was brilliant, as well as the Elias character and Jay's Silence Of The Lambs homage. It was certainly retreading ground he'd already done but that didn't make it a bad film.

Cop Out was rubbish though.

Cop Out wasn’t the first awful film Smith made, he had relied too much on his small group of characters & audiences love for them so he just repeated himself with lesser & lesser quality. In fact the only truly excellent films he has made are Clerks & Chasing Amy (his best film). All the rest are lazy variations on the same theme until the inevitable mainstream mess that was Cop Out. Red State at least looks different, sadly his childish whining is very off-putting, especially as it was the critics that were instrumental in making Clerks the huge success it was via their good reviews/support.
Oh & one of the bad things about Clerks 2, he hates his characters! He penalises them for wanting to move on & then ends everything with them staying in their safe little world! & the gross out humour was a pathetic attempt at shock value rather than genuinely funny. On the plus side there is this –



& of course King Diamond!

Clerks 2 was indeed rubbish. Boring, unfunny rubbish with a schmaltzy unbelievable romance at its heart. Terrible. I haven't been so disappointed since the Matrix sequels.

I'm really looking forward to Red State though. I've read about the "incident" at the Sundance screening and Mark is right to dismiss that here - because as far as the film-going public is concerned, who gives a monkey's about a spat/publicity stunt/broken promise about distribution rights? Ah yes, that's right, no-one. If every director's films were abandoned by audiences because of his/her behaviour, cinemas would go bust. Certainly James Cameron would be out of a job...

The last Kevin Smith film I enjoyed was Jay and Silent Bob and his output seems to have deteriorated drastically ever since - so why am I looking forward to seeing Red State? Well, the subject matter interests me and I'm curious as to how he handles it. In addition, Smith's comedic chops could well add some sparkle to the screenplay. And this is a real departure for him - hopefully he won't throw in some horribly cloying romance strand and we can all hail the returning hero.

Hello.
About Kevin...
In the 9 movies he did (Clerks, Mallrats, Chasing Amy, Jersey Girl, Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, Clerks 2, Zack and Miri Make a Porno, Cop Out and Red State) I really liked 5, and 5 in 9 possible is positive! Now, of all of these Cop Out was the only one he did not wrote himself. He only did it because he wanted to make "the movie my dad would take me to see when I was a kid". I can understand that because according to him is dad liked cop flicks and didn't couldn't enjoy Kevin's films. So I can understand that that, plus working with Bruce Willis, sealled the deal. Plus, I'm sure that, a guy who was getting ready to make a movie without being payed a salary, he wanted the big studio payout. He does have a family to provide for. Kevin backlashed at critics because critics toke the movie seriously and expected more from him. But the thing is I think, for him, that was a job and a job to satisfy some ghostly image of is father, and not a Kevin Smith film. He didn't toke it seriously. He might have done the best he could with what the script was, but he was never expecting to make a revolucionary film. Now, Red State, which he spent 4 years trying to get funded, which he wrote, which he cast and distributed himself, is a all different thing! He did try to make art out of this one, he is back criticising catholicism gone mad, the victims of the film are gay people (and a true Kevin Smith storie always incorporate gay people in it, since Mallrats). It is, even if not in visual style, a Kevin Smith original. And Kevin himself as said that he went back to its origins, being completly independent and, I add, ground breaking. Red State is far from perfect, I would have liked to know more about the charaters so that I could feel more when they are killed, but it does manages to do something new, to stay away from what is expected to happen next, and it gets you interested to see where it is going. Its almost like Dogma II, without Jay and Silent Bob, and being horrifying instead of funny. Can't wait for Hit Somebody! And I'm with you there, dr K, "welcome back, Kevin".

To answer your question Dr. K: Yes. I think he would have made the same film. He has even (on CNN's Piers Morgan show, I believe) put up the notion that he knowingly makes these terrible films because it gets him to the next one that might possible be a little better. He was literally justifying making a knowingly horrid film because that enables him to get to the next one that MAY or may not be a better film. That's a Cop Out (sorry).

And there is absolutely NOTHING from that trailer that would compel me to see that film. Just the fact that it's called Red State tells me everything that I need to know about the film to stay away, because it's going to be aimed at an audience that I am surely not part of. That you keep repeating "whether you like it or not" lends me to believe that you know the film sucks, but you like its politics. That's fine, other critics like Roger Ebert also let their political leanings cloud their judgement as to whether a film is a well made film or not; sometimes the intent is enough to give it a pass or fail. Film criticism is subjective. It's whether you like the film or not, so I get that. That's one of the things I consider when I listen to critics: their personal biases.

But, I like the idea of an independent filmmaker laying out his or her vision, making a statement; whatever... but sometimes you just don't care what someone has to say. I liked Clerks to some degree. I even liked Mallrats, to which he (unnecessarily) apologized for). After that, I started to notice that all of the characters spoke like Kevin Smith (much like how you have said as much about Quentin Tarantino... although Kevin Smith can say his own dialogue, especially when he's playing Silent Bob). And Kevin Smith characters always spout cynical left wing rhetoric, except for the ones in the film that are set up to be those with an opposing view that will always be proven wrong in their beliefs and be made to look like idiots. There's only one point of view and that's fine, but I prefer films with a little more balance.

Umm, this may just be me, but I watched Clerks a couple of days ago (the first Kevin Smith movie I've seen) and got particularly worked up about this pivotal line: "You know, there's a million fine-looking women in the world, dude. But they don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you."

So... women are either replacement mothers, or sluts? I'm thinking Kevin Smith was a nasty piece of work before he started hating on critics...

Slightly off-topic, but is Kevin Smith really this big indie, alternative filmster that he tends to be painted as? I once heard a theory (although having not seen all of his films I don't know how far I'd go along with it) that Kevin Smith films are sort of middle-American normative propaganda for the gross-out market. The argument is that whilst his subject-matter is often shocking and his tone irreverent and perhaps occasionally offensive (viz. #12; consider also the "Chasing Amy" controversy about straightening out the lesbian), the end state of the characters supports traditional middle-American neoliberal values. For example, in "Dogma" a Catholic woman loses faith to the extent of working for an abortion clinic, but by the end she realises that Christianity is super. Or in "Zack and Miri", the lead couple set out to make money out of the amoral sex industry, but in the end they learn that monogamy is more important than making money.

Like I say, I don't know how far I'd go along with that, and I'm not necessarily declaiming the quality of his work, but it's worth thinking about just how edgy Kevin Smith really is.

Kevin Smith has been planning Red State well before Cop Out (or the real title A Couple of dicks), he inspired by his friend Malcolm Ingham's interview with Fred Phelps in his documentary "Small Town Gay Bar" (not a bad doc actually). Kevin has said numerous times said he doesn't like Cop Out and especially working with Bruce Willis and the reason he did the film was it was the kind of film his dad would have liked.

I've seen Red State, It was good but I need to see it again, the real standout was the performance of Michael Parks which was fantastic.

I've always liked Kevin Smith, Everything up to Clerks 2 (except of course the disaster that is Jersey Girl), Clerks, Dogma, Chasing Amy are stone cold classics at this point, Mallrats has it's moments and I've always really liked Clerks, it's schmaltzy at times but that's Kevin Smith for you, this is guy raised on big budget movies and they later discovered independent films which of course inspired him.

I do find it kinda sad he is gonna retire from filmmaking after his next film Hit Somebody (which is to be split in 2 parts).

Just got back from seeing it tonight, and I loved it. It wasn't so much a return to form as taking a chance to do somethign different. I haven't seen Cop Out, but he hasn't made a bad film when he's written them.

@MercerFinn

I'd disagree with this. On one of his Q&A DVDs a woman asks him if Banky's line about lesbians just needing a good man to turn them around makes him uncomfortable, it suggesting that he and the film endorse this idea. He disagrees, suggesting that by virtue of the fact that the idiot character, the homophobe, speaks the line, we know to distrust it somewhat.

Admittedly, this line in Clerks is a little more difficult, because the character is merely lazy and a stoner, both things Smith has described himself being and being kinda happy with. But this line isn't the end of the film. It makes Dante realise that he loves Veronica, but Randall's honesty (if stupidity) in revealing Dante's earlier plans to date Caitlin makes Veronica angrily dump Dante for betraying her, and spending his days lazily working while she tries to give him some purpose. It's in the scene that follows that Randall helps him realise that he's been the one to blame all along, wasting his time at the store while thinking he's so much more advanced than everyone who comes in.

Here's where you could take issue and suggest that Smith's characters (who he admits to basing in himself) are parts of himself that he both dislikes and embraces - the end of Clerks being quite upbeat. Having this love/hate relationship with them makes it hard to pick out which facets of their personalities he embraces or dislikes, but by virtue of the fact that it's there I think it means that we can't make any great assumptions one way or the other.

And besides - and this point brings the whole morality of cheating into question - perhaps Silent Bob has good reason to think that most women cheat, and maybe the fact is it's happened to him a number of times because he's lazy and a stoner. Just a suggestion.

Is it safe to admit that I actually like Jersey Girl? Yes it's not on parr with his previous output and a complete departure but I feel that it got flack for having Beniffer as it's stars. I've done a bit of low budget film making and have experienced, due to time and budget constraints (along with other factors), the finished movie can turn out totally different from the original vision. I've learned from the experience of producing a short, where I was not happy with the output. These experiences helped to raise my game next time.
I'm sure that Cop-Out was a required experience, alos prompting Mr Smith to raise his game.

Kevin was building up to a critic mauling well before cop out. I had the misfortune to see him to a spoken word gig at Indig02 on the basis of seeing his previous gigs on DVD. The failure of Zack & Miri to break the K Smith 30 million mark even with a bankable star in the form of Seth Rogen sent him off on a dope binge within two days of the release and poor opening weekend figures. He was definitely still on the weed at the time of the Indig02 show and anyone who tells you it was great is most definitely a Smith fanboy. Clerks 2 was just retreading Clerks territory with different gags and a similar setup, Zach & Miri was "The Making Of Clerks the Porno". Opinion has it his Smodcasts have gone down the drain as he has become an Angry Old Man. I for one am not going to give him a second chance.

There was one good thing about Cop Out. Love him or loathe him, Seann William Scott played possibly his funniest role, as the incredibly annoying base jumper. I did actually laugh during those scenes...

Hi,

I think it is likely that there are bigger industrial influences at work here than Smith's relationship with critics. Cop Out gave Smith a whole different selection of things which a Clerk-esq film couldn't. Low stakes for one. That could be seen as lazy but who doesn't want an easy day at work every now and then.

Also, his career being largely predicated on cult status and supported by a large devoted fan base, surely the criticism he got from fans for Cop Out hit him harder than the critics he (apparently so) publicly denounced.

Mark, when your fans criticized that awful Guy Richie Christmas blog video you did, was that not more meaningful to you than when someone who isn't in your audience criticizes you?

I think you're overstating your influence in this case.

Sorry for bad grammar.

I saw Red State & was a little underwhelmed. Kevin Smith in his Q & A afterwards explained it as a film where when you think you know what's going to happen it'll suddenly change & be something else. Which is a short hand way of saying "I was stoned when writing it & couldn't be bothered following anything through". The end explanation by Goodman was so lazy although the very final line (of the whole film) had myself & the audience in stitches.

@irturner I've not noticed any drop off in the Smodcasts he does, but then I only really listen to 3 from the network- Smodcast, Hollywood Babble-On & Tell Em Steve-Dave. At one point I was downloading them all but there's only so many times I can take Jason Mewes falling off the wagon or his wife saying "Muthaf**kkerrrr". I think that's the way to take him...in small doses.

I am looking forward to Hit Somebody even though I don't like ice hockey. Which must mean something.

After reading some comments that came out after mine, I felt that something should be added to what I've said before.
Using Dr.K's own words, "Wether you like it or not..." Kevin Smith manages to tick people off! You either love him or hate him! And I guess that alone stands as proof that he is an artist, because is work (even if not all of it) causes eated reactions, debates and discussions.
He touchs controversial matters (catholicism, homosexuality, racism, violence, drug use) with a very loud voice that ishis own, that doesn't take itself seriously and rather preferes to entertain people then to indoctrinate his audience with his views. I refer you to the video below, in which he states not to want to "shape the future generations, mainly to entertain them" (no quoting, paraphrasing.):



So, he doesn't include those topics in the movies to create a message or a doctrine (may it be political or religious). What one can learn from the Kevin Smith movie list is that people don't have to be extremists. You can be religious, without forcing your morals onto others, for example. You should accept other races and sexualities, etc... But he doesn't moralize his audience because he reveals his own faults, his own weaknesses and does it all almost as pure gest.
About the movies is made, yes, he is from the Quentin Tarantino school, in as much as they create threads between their individual movies. QT has the Michael Parks' sheriff character and the Big Kahuna Burger, KS has Jay and Silent Bob and Moobys. And both of them have characteres that speak has they do. But think about it... a director that writes his own stuff, he is bound to have that "fault". An artist always represents in its art his own subjective view of the world he lives in. That's what makes them artists, they risk that. And that, more than the lack of humour, is what makes me dislike Cop Out. Jersey Girl I don't dislike, it just doesn't move me in any way. Cop Out is soulless and that is noticeable.
As far as I Hit Somebody will be his last film, I've heard his reasons and I understand them. (check video below)



One last thing, Dr. K, I think Kevin would have done Red State long before Cop Out if he had found the money before, so no, I don't think the battle with the critics was of paramount importance for the coming of this movie. However, I don't agree with the "against critics rant" that he pulled. I think one%2

... should listen to all opinions, and I think Kevin just got mad and frustrated because you guys told him what he already knew and hoped not to have to listen! Cheers...

P.S.: please forgive any bad phrasing or orthographical errors, I'm portuguese! LOL

Really enjoyed "Red State", it's the only Kevin Smith film I've cared for since "Clerks".

I'm fine with Smith retiring, he will be remembered as a cult director no doubt. He still has a fine career in front of him as just himself - Smith on stage (call it stand up or whatever) can be brutally funny, he knows how to tell funny stories just not on film.

It's odd that Kevin Smith has such a problem with critics because if there is one director who I think would make a really good film critic it would be Kevin Smith.

I've never been able to decide what's worse; the majority of Keven Smith's back catalogue, or his rabid fanbase that will quite happily lap up any old rubbish he squeezes out. Sure, Clerks was reasonably good, but he hasn't half made some terrible movies over the years - Jay and Silent Bob Stike Back (a.k.a. Kevin Smith Makes Sure We Know He's Seen Star Wars Quite A Bit) and the abysmal Clerks 2. I don't know if I can bring myself to go and see Red State...

Watching Clerks on a loop got me through my marriage breakup. It was the only thing that made me laugh out loud no matter how many times I watched it.

I can only attribute Cop Out to a bout of clinical depression on the part of Smith. To claim that it was bad because Smith didn't write it is rather abrogating the responsibility of the director to make gold out of dross.

Cop Out looks like the entire thing was funded by money of dubious origin or something so everyone just held their nose and went through rote actions. The movie comes across as if not a single person involved in the production cared about it.

I think Dr.K you are missing out the other influencing factors:

When a filmmaker makes a movie no matter how good or bad - he/she is never going to admit publicly that the film sucks during the press release period.

Cop Out was a pay day pure and simple and Kevin Smith in his slacker-type way gave a half-baked defense with that critic bashing thing.

He's smart enough to know the film wasn't good but filmmakers sometimes need a period to get away from the films they've made so they can return with something new and it usually works:

PT Anderson came back with There Will Be Blood

Cronenberg came back with A History of Violence

Lucas came back with Star Wars Episode 1 (sorry forget that one)

But I always felt Smith was a good filmmaker and still do - now I think we'll be seeing his next chapter of films and this new fear of white-trash bible bashers should be a good ride I think!

Oooh why the hate with Clerks 2... I loved it! I liked the quirky romance, and the Jackson 5 bit brings a lump to my throat. Its actually the film that got me liking KS and allowed me to appreciate Clerks 1 more than I did before!. How any filmaker can couple such a cool romantic film intertwined with totally gross out humour ('inter species erotica') and get away with it is a master of the arts.. Didnt like K+SB strike back though..... that wasnt so good though

I find Kevin Smith's bashing of critics amusing since he was a guest critic on Roger Ebert's show a few years ago...

#28 - No, don't forget the circa $926m-grossing Star Wars: Episode I. I can't wait until next February when the 3D re-issue inevitably cleans-up and the haters' argument is negated once-and-for-all.

Truly terrible films don't rake it in TWICE.

@ Filip Önell

And Newsnight review, he gets around lol

@31 - no that was a jibe at Dr.K cos he hates those films

I personally quite liked the prequels because I'm a big SW fan not as good as the original trilogy and yes I agree a film that makes that amount of money and is as poorly directed as it is - must be an event like you say!

It's really a testament to how great that first movie was - and quite fitting that we are already discussing Star Wars in relation to Kevin Smith!

Considering Red State was submitted to Miramax the same time as Zack & Miri make a blah blah, which was pre Cop Out, I'd say you're a little off the mark Mark that it was a reaction to the Cop Out backlash. (Pun intended)

#33 - D'oh!

The underlying negativity towards the prequels, I believe, is they were made at a time when amazing SFX weren't simply desired - they were expected. Juxtapose that with the originals' production. Back then, awesome visuals - sci-fi / fantasy-wise - were very difficult to realise, yet ILM pulled it off.

Truly special effects!

I suspect that it is a rare film maker who is so comitted to their own artistic vision that they are not swayed by critcal or 'bum in seat' reactions to their work. I do think that a good critique will give anyone food for thought and hopefully improve their next outing regardless of medium

If I'm going to spend my hard earned cash on a film;

The director is a first timer and I'm willing to give them a shot.
or
Love the source material and I'd go and see it even if Brookebondheimer was behind it.
or
Trust the director based on his past record.

I don't trust Kevin Smith as an Author after the horrendous way he treats comic book readers and despite Clerks et al, I don't trust him as a film maker.

The Good Doctor will have to go some way to get me to watch it.

Seen Red State. And enjoyed it, it is a really unsettling watch and not what I would expect from Smith after his past work. I have only seen his most famous stuff (Not Cop Out, which just looks like a awful film) and while enjoyable they all seem to be playing the same tune with the same tone.
But Red State is something of a departure and well worth a look, I hope this means that we'll see him take on more variety in the future and not just use the same one trick pony he was riding for quite a long time.

@35 - also let's not forget that you simply cannot compare Mark Hamil/Alec Guiness to Hayden Pretty Boy/Ewen McGregor

After the prequels I'm astounded at how good those guys were and they - along with Williams' music made us invest in the original movies (so we accepted the basic special effects back then) and this I feel was the key mistake in the prequels - they didn't get the right cast - simple as

I do think though that the original Star Wars has stood up better over time than LOTR - although it doesn't surprise me really!

A former fanboy writes:

I have to admit that, back in the day, I was quite a Kevin Smith fanboy. The first movie of his I saw was Mallrats when I was about 16 and (I know how corny this sounds but it's absolutely true) it was the first time I'd seen a film that felt like it spoke to my generation.

His first three films (Clerks, Mallrats and Chasing Amy) were perfectly balanced combinations of Tarantino-esque pop culture references, Richard Linklater's outsider indie spirit and broad laugh-out-loud comedy. Lovely stuff.

I thought Dogma was, conceptually, a massive step-up and, though I think it is flawed in places, was a film that showed that Smith was a director with alot of ambition. At the time I eagerly awaited to see what he did next.

....Which was of course 'Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back'. A sprawling, self-congratulatory mess of a film aimed squarely at pandering for the stoner/comic book/Star Wars obsessed section of his fanbase. It was Smith's ever-burgeoning obsession with self-promotion put on a big screen. After the boundary pushing Dogma, it was, in my eyes a collosal mis-fire.

After the failure of Jersey Girl (which I've never seen because, well, I listen to critics) he resorted back to his comfort zone of bawdy slacker-comedies with Clerks 2 and Zack And Miri- both of which I thought were terrible and smacked of a man trying vainly to recapture former glories, which is quite sad given the relative infancy of his career.

I haven't bothered with Cop-Out (again, critics). It seems to me that another attempt to step out of his comfort zone resulted in disaster. His lashing out at critics seemed quite pathetic. After all, without the word of mouth of said critics supporting Clerks, he wouldn't be in a position to make cop movies starring Bruce Willis.

I'm always weary of directors/actors/artists who question the validity of critics. Critics probably watch a lot more films than anyone else and are as qualified as anyone else to decide whether something is good or bad. As someone who consults Rotten Tomatoes when thinking about checking out a film, I'd liken it to reading Which? before buying a fridge.

I am curious about Red State, mainly because as opposed to resorting back to his comfort zone he's gone back to low-budget provocative film-making which is, creatively, a step in the right direction. Smith's decision to distribute the film himself is a curious move. I can't decide whether he's legitimately attempting to change the way films are marketed and released or if it's a nother example of his apparent delusions of grandeur. I wonder how his reliance on his hardcore fanbase to make the film a success will eventually play out.

After all, as I myself have indicated, we won't stick around forever.

I will be seeing 'Red State' as soon as... however, having seen all of Smiths previous cinematic (hardly!) efforts, I'd say that his biggest problem is that he himself is infinitely more interesting than pretty much any of his films. Maybe that will change with 'Red State' and the upcoming 'Hit Somebody', who knows?
I consider 'Chasing Amy' to be his most accomplished work and 'Dogma' had it's share of interesting moments.

I understand that he is retiring from the director's chair to concentrate on his personal appearances, writing, developing his SMODcast chit-chat whilst keeping his hand in producing and distributing the next generation of filmmaking talent. It therefore appears that Smith is as wise as he is funny. I just wish I had this smart a retirement plan. Good luck to him.

I mean, seriously??

"Red State" is utter rubbish from start to finish. It starts as a teenage torture porn horror flick, then descends into a siege movie and ends up as a political thriller. It is a complete mess, the pacing is off and it is incredibly dull.
Smith tries to make a political statement about religious extremists and post-9/11 government action but none of this is convincing. After spending a good 20 mins to show that a group of religious nutters really hates gay people (including seeing John Goodman babbling into his bluetooth headset while having breakfast for what seems like hours), the honey trap at the beginning of the movie (and which triggers the whole affair) is directed at a bunch of teenage boys looking for a sh*g with an older woman. Err, what?
And I am not giving anything away when I say there is a shootout in the middle of the film (you can see that in Mark's clip) but I can indicate that it is probably the dullest (and longest!) shootout in cinematic history.

I haven't seen "Cop Out" but if "Red State" is so much more "Kevin Smith" than "Cop Out", then surely "Cop Out" must be the better movie. With "Red State", Smith has shown his shortcomings as a director and, more strikingly, as a writer.

I remember watching Cop Out on a plane, had it crashed it may had seemed liked a small mercy, it isn't just bad - its monumentally awful! I think it's important to remember that Cop Out isn't Smith's lone stinker, Clerks 2 and Jersey Girl anyone? What people liked about Kevin was his independent asthetic that made Clerks, Mallrats and Chasing Amy seem like a breath of fresh air. Directors are entitled to a 'bad day at the office' too, but even at his 'best', his films have always been whiney and obnoxious. Simply because he threw a paddy doesn't justify a reappresal of what is a mediocre body of work anyway.

I am SO glad to hear Smith is back on track. As a fan of his work, I was deeply disappointed with his last few movies (Clerks 2 and Cop-Out). Zack and Miri wasn't at all bad, I thought. Shame the DVD had no commentary. Never understood that.

I love kevin smith, he is one of my favorate wrigter/directors I have liked most of his films the only two I dont like are Zack and Mari make a porno and Cop out . Cop Out was extreamly diserpointing, booring, dull, uninventive and yes you where right lazy. Zack and Miri was a reaction to Judd Appatows films, thats why most of the Judd Appatow cast are in it. Ive been looking forward to RedState since it was announced lets just hope that he has bounced back.

It's generally agreed that Cop Out is aweful and I say that as a big KS fan. Rather than the critics being out of touch that film made me, for just a moment, feel maybe with all his additional web work and podcasts that he was stuck in a loop and was in fact the one out of touch. Red State should prove this wrong. For being a KS fan I think it at times is comparable to being a Star Wars fan these days. Heckled for infinite re-releases and changes and the butt of the joke for their (my) extreme love and involvement with the films, its easy to forget that at the heart of it all is a bunch of films that people love and thats all that matters.
The view-askew universe is over (for now...) and he is trying new things. We all learn from our mistakes. Kevin Smith changed the game with indie film and nearly 20 years later he's doing it again. Good luck to the guy. He has a lot of passion for film and makes the idea of film-making possible for the average joe

@Matth Stil re: 31.

I'd better be careful here - the last time I responded to one of your messages, the moderators handed me my backside on a plate. (On that note weekend mods, can you please assume good faith here?)

To paraphrase a Computer Science aphorism, claiming that a film is good merely because of the size of it's box office is like saying ['a famous fast food chain with a Scottish surname'] make the best food in the world. The possibility of the success of a re-release of the prequels does not "negate the haters' argument once and for all" - it merely suggests that credulous fans are indeed, credulous.

I'm not even going to bother posting the link to the Plinkett reviews again because if you are genuinely the Star Wars fan that you claim to be, you would already be aware of them. Either way, it should be quite clear that the prequel films were lazy, badly written, poorly executed cash-ins purely designed to part well meaning fans from their money and Lucas ought to be thoroughly ashamed of himself. On that note, If you do see George, could you ask him for my childhood back please?

I went to see Red State today and have mixed feelings about it. I'm not saying that it was necessarily a good or a bad film but at least it provoked some response. Not since Michael Hanneke's US remake of "Funny Games" have I seen a film that goes so out of its way to confound audience expectations.

Certainly worth a look but be advised that you might go away feeling somewhat frustrated or short-changed, depending on your tolerance for this sort of thing.

#47 - Formality or familiarity...? As the latter '...breeds contempt', it's always best to "...be careful (on) here".

As for the rest of the comment: whatever!

I have been a fan of Kevin's work from the beginning, Clerks was (at the time) a refreshing generation movie featuring superb writing and a very 90's soundtrack. I've liked pretty much most of Smiths movies within the Askewniverse, Mallrats, Chasing Amy, Dogma, Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back, Zack & Miri and Clerks 2 hold a lot of pleasure for me and remind me of a time and sense of honesty that has unfortunately been lost I think since entering the 2000's. I even love his Q&A sessions and still find Smiths voice an entertaining (if not sometimes little self obsessed) one to listen to.

Cop Out was unfortunately (although not written by Kevin Smith, so he can't be held solely responsible) a dire movie, and you can see on screen that it was obviously an awkward shoot, with Kevin Smith very vocal about his disappointment at working with Bruce Willis, having been a long time fan and ultimately realising he was a bit of a jerk, proof positive that you should never meet your idols.

So we move on to Red State, a fantastic movie and one that shows a fresh approach to film making from Kevin whilst keeping his trademark humour and writing intact.
Unfortunately just as Kevin Smith returns with something completely different to say we're told (by Kevin Smith himself) that this is his second to last movie before retiring from directing and focusing on his extremely successful Smodcast empire.

Thank you Kevin, you've provided me with much entertainment over the years, 8 great out of 10 movies is quite an impressive track record as far as I'm concerned and with Red State you've done it again.

I will start off by saying that while not a big fan of Kevin Smith, I do like most of his films (there is only really Cop Out that I found to be pretty poor; not an awful film but massively disappointing one).

That said, on the whole Red State is as bad as Cop Out is and I have to agree with most of what Real de Madrid(42) wrote. It is a very average and ultimately disappointing movie from a director/writer who is capable of much better. It needed more focus on story and characters, and less poorly written, uninteresting and at times seemingly endless preachy dialogue.