Ö÷²¥´óÐã

Maybe now some of our historians, political commentators and religious observers will not find the "Ö÷²¥´óÐã Rule is Rome Rule" argument of Unionism in the the early 1900's so obnoxious and laughable. Unionism had a point, so un-pc, yet so tragically vindicated by this and the recent Ryan Report. Forget too the current political arguments in Northern Ireland about an impending Papal Visit; on a human rights level this leader should not set foot on any part of Irish soil. These Reports surely merit an international investigation into human rights abuse at its most shocking. As for the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Irish state - well, is it not the case of kettles & pots?

This is the same pattern that was uncovered in the United States and suggests that it is characteristic of the Catholic Church everywhere. It raises many questions. Is this the result of the Chruch's policy regarding not permitting priests to marry? The fact that children were physically abused mentally and physically not only by priests but by others affiliated with the church such as in oprhanages suggests that the criminality goes beyond that and that it is characteristic of comparable institutions in other religions as well. From previous reports, the perpetrators in Ireland probably cannot be tried due to statutes of limitations having expired between the commission of the crimes and their discovery. In the US, the US constitution prevents the passage of ex-post facto laws but the crimes are so heinous that if this is the case in Ireland, this policy should be reconsidered.

In the US, priests and the rest of the church are subject to both criminal and civil prosecution in many cases because there are no statutes of limitations in such cases. Reports of huge settlements in the civil cases suggest a major financial impact on the church. I think in Delaware recently a court ruled that the Church could not declare pre-emptive bankrupcy to shield itself from civil liability.

In an interview with one of the victims on Ö÷²¥´óÐã, a man who wrote a book about his vicitimization, one factor that allowed the coverup was the unquestioning acceptance of arbitrary authority, in this case the authority of religious figures of power and the exercise of religion to have power over government. In fact in Ireland at the time the crimes were committed on this author, the Catholic Church had more power in Ireland than the government had.

Nor is this arbitrary exercise of absolute and therefore corrupt power restricted to only Christian religions. For example it is the norm in many Moslem nations like Iran and reverts back to ancient pagan religions around the world as well. One advantage of a secular society is its greater willingness to investigate and prosecute crimes by individuals and organizations affiliated with religions that would otherwise hide behind the cloak of their religion. What degree of outrage and backlash there will be among the population in Ireland remains to be seen but it seems to me that there are many more nations where just such investigations should be carried out, possibly a lot more dirt under their rugs as well.

Marcus,

Do you know the percentage of Irish 'nationality' priests in the US implicated? This issue may be characteristic of the Catholic church everywhere, but something truly henious was spawned in and exported from Ireland.

Rather than framing the discussion in order to stereotype Catholics it might be better to look at small, closed communities with hierarchical, patriarchal structures whereby those with the power can do whatever they want to those in their charge.

Charles Dickens wrote 'Nicholas Nickleby' in the 1830's in order to expose the cruelty of the so called 'charity homes' for orphans, operated for profit (money came from the parish per orphan housed) by the Wackford Squeers of this world. His every-men were Smike (who dies), representing those that suffered in these homes; and Nickleby, a man from a poor background who is employed by Squeers, but has a strong sense of natural justice.

Dickens was motivated to do so after noticing the large number of graves of young orphans in many Yorkshire cemeteries, and began making investigations amongst those that survived into adulthood.
A few years after Dickens work was published most of these 'charity homes' had been closed, though little more was done to help abandoned orphans.

Thirty years later (1866) Thomas Barnardo, a newly qualified doctor, went to work in the east end of London and found orphans sleeping in the streets.
In 1867 Barnardo set up his 'Ragged School' and starting helping the forgotten and neglected children of east London - the foundation of his later Barnado's Children's Ö÷²¥´óÐãs.

I suspect that throughout history, across the globe, children have been abused by those with power over them, particularly in societies that believe their live unimportant and allow a few to 'care' for them unsupervised.

Don't believe this doesn't continue today; amongst many countries, cultures and religions; and don't think Protestants (Irish or otherwise) are immune.

Now as I recall there was some religious sect in the US where there was a well publicized incident of systematic sexual abuse of children some months ago. And I think some spin offs of the Mormon church have child marriages that are arranged. (This sects are not affiliated with the Mormon Church which disavows any connection with them.) By law, these are all cases of pedophilic rape and are prosecuted when found out. Neither of course have anything to do with the Irish upsidedownworld.

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Guys the silence on this thread is deafening.

I received an email today from a friend. It reads,

"There is no need for you to agonize about the cover ups by the Church. This is all the result of centuries of denial of this basic human need, forcing the clergy to repress the most poweful of natural urges - their sexuality. Completely unaware that this repression will show itself later, in a very ugly form, on children.

Pederasy, the urge to dominate vulnerable children, is a natural result stemming from the chain of command in the structure of the Church. It is a chain of command which is about 'control', from the Pope at the top, to the Cardinals, Bishops, priests, congregants - to the very children.

These weak, vulnerable and impressionable children, are a captive audience, a ready made outlet for these priests to release their pent up urges. Likewise, those who control the line of priests are prone to cover up these attrocities because exposure is a threat to their 'control.'

None of this would be happening if the Church would release its control-based power structure and recognise that natural urges are gifts of nature (or of God, if there is one.)

The real sin is our attempt to debase, repress and deny them instead of cherishing them for the beautiful instruments of love that they are."

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Will, post a link to Nell McCafferty's questions at the press conference - it's all over Youtube at the moment, and even your good friend PZ Myers has a link from Pharyngula. Nell can be abrasive and a bit zany at times, but by golly she has a point, and knows how to wield it.

Don't know what posting #8 lifting a paragraph directly from my #2 is about. Seems objectionable to merely copy it with a link to something I never heard of from someone I never heard of.

I think the church has been lucky so far. Nothing like the villagers hunting down the villain in the Boris Karloff Movie Frankenstein with tourches in their hands, blood in their eyes, and revenge on their minds. In the US we have the civil courts and the criminal prosecution systems for redress of wrongs. What will they use in Ireland?

As I understand accounts of the report (not having read it myself), not all of the abusers were priests, not all of the abuse sexual or even physical. Of those that were sexual, it wasn't clear what percentage of them were homosexual and what percentage were heterosexual.

It was interesting how many Hollywood left wingers and Europeans were incensed at the capture and deportation of the film maker Roman Polanski recently, the fugitive from American law for three decades who raped a young girl. Somehow they felt that with the passage of time, the system should have forgiven him. But many of the crimes reported here were decades ago. I just wrote it off as the typical left wing and European double standard.

What puzzles me. Do these priests (and others) not believe in an omniscient God, all knowing, all seeing?

Smithy - I have downloaded the report and started to read it. At the moment I just do not know what to say - I have no words yet for my feelings, maybe I never will.

The way in which a society protects its most defenseless and deals with those who attack them tells you pretty much what kind of society it is.

Wonder who'll be on Sunday Sequence tomorrow? Will we be treated to the same festival of hand-wringing, sorrow and outrage that we got in May? To deviate for a second, I was at Mass tonight and predictably enough the priest preached about The Dublin Report. Amazingly, he even surpassed the apoplectic rage he presented following the Ryan Report in May! As in May, the sermon was followed by applause from the congregation. But I have to ask, where was his righteous indignation when, as I recall the only Down and Connor priest to raise the subject of clerical sexual abuse of children, was being pilloried in the press by his presbyteral brethren and forced to flee to Dublin? Didn't see any letters from priests defending him! There were plenty from them condemning him, one particularly nasty one in the Irish News was signed by 'a true priest'. Think 'true priest' should hang his rather huge head in shame today, but he probably preached about his "horror and pain" at the revelations in the report, like our guy. Isn't hypocrisy great?
Back to tomorrow's Sunday Sequence, Will it be Timmy or Vinnie? Will Timmy be cajoled into reluctantly revealing his 'strong personal views on the subject', as in May? As Patsy McGarry put it in the Irish Times (May 26, 2009), 'On the programme, with some prompting by Sunday Sequence presenter William Crawley, Fr Bartlett eventually crossed the ecclesiastical Rubicon'. A very courageous stand, or so I thought, until I found out that he had discussed it with his boss, Sean Brady and obtained his permission. Maybe not so courageous and spontaneous after all? Maybe, he will bravely 'cross the ecclesiastical Rubicon' this time and criticize the disgraceful, scandalous conduct of the Nuncio and Vatican? I'm sure William can 'prompt' him into it. Even better, wouldn't it be interesting to see if old Vinnie would call Des Connell, J.C. McQuad, Kevin McNamara and Dermot Ryan, 'the dregs of society'? Don't think so somehow! Anyway, we wait to see.

In ref to post#1.Have you never heard of the Kincora boys club or Mark Harbinson. Child sex abuse is a no excuse to rewrite history in regards to Ö÷²¥´óÐã Rule, and every basket has a few bad eggs, not just the Catholic baskets!

Par

Cant bring myself to read it, in any case, I know what's there. I will read it though, as a mark of respect for those who suffered and who would be in tears this week.

I turned on the TV on Thursday night and Channel 4 News. The newsreader said that the report stated, "The majority of priests chose to look the other way, while only a courageous few, spoke out."

After over ten years of accusations of 'letting the side down', gold digging, jumping on the bandwagon, what about all the good clergy?, it was only a minority, he should leave the past in the past, he's a loose cannon, etc...

To be driven to the brink of nervous breakdown, every single day to be reminded that you are an outcast, to question your own sanity, all these 'respected' priests jeering at me - surely they must have a point? Surely there is something wrong with me?

Day after day to read smug comments from the right wing ridiculing me while they march headlong back down the route of clericalism where these monsters will roam again, no accountability, legalism (when it suits them.)

To hear those words on the News, then the deafening silence from those who had so much to say before, well, words arent adequate.

Smithy - I love the Bible story to which Helio refers on his website where Jacob wrestles with God to receive a blessing. Any examination of the history of the people of Israel, no matter how cursory, would show that a blessing from God can be a very mixed bag indeed. Jesus seems to have had similarly idiosyncratic notions of what constituted a blessing when he delivered the Sermon on the Mount. I am not sure what the comfort is in His promise Blessed are you when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake but assuredly it is evident to many of us reading your contributions here that, like the prophets, you are in and of The Kingdom.

Religion. Poisons. Everything.

Where's all the talk of fire and brimstone? Where is the mention of evildoers going to hell where their souls will burn for all eternity? Where is the talk of those who were the servants of evil, those who covered evil up helping to perpetuate it, who turned a blind eye to it all going to hell to burn for all eternity too? Funny how suddenly all talk of the devil, evil, hell, falls silent...when it is the religion itself that is inescapably evil. PastorPhilip, have you spoken out against the evil doers or do you suddenly find yourself muted too? What have so many people got to hide...their shame at being taken in for so long? Whom do the priests confess to...when their entire hierarchy is tainted by sin including the sin of silence? Especially the sin of silence? In WWII they invented an excuse for silence in the face of the holocaust. What excuse will they invent this time when there is no war except the war within themselves?

From Ö÷²¥´óÐã;

"The report found Dublin Archdiocese's pre-occupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the Church, and the preservation of its assets. All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities."

This typifies the behavior of a business enterprise protecting the reputation of its brand name, not a religion which proclaims itself the paragon of morality in the world having received its message straight from god.

"A number of very senior members of the Irish police regarded priests as being outside their remit. There are some examples of them actually reporting complaints to the Archdiocese instead of investigating them."

It seems to me that the Irish people have more to investigate than just the Catholic Church of Ireland. It appears the scandal has corrupted the very instruments of government itself. The question has to be asked how far and wide were the accusations voiced and who including those highest up in the government ignored them? What measures will the government take to expose and punish those in the secular government guilty of corruption and what steps will be taken so that it can't happen again in the future. At the very least you'd think there would be calls for an investigative commission or panel with full powers of subpoena and sufficient resources to do a thorough job. In a real democracy, nothing less would be acceptable to the citizens who would demand it if the government wasn't forthcoming with it itself.

Yep, Markie, that is exactly the point. This cult was operating above the law and actively perverting the course of justice. If it was a company, it would have its assets frozen and be broken up. Instead we have the Ö÷²¥´óÐã fawning over priests and bishops who continue to bleat about "taking this on the chin". Respectful tones from Seamus McKee to Bishop McAreavey, when he should be going for the jugular and hanging this corrupt sect out to dry.

I stumbled across a story that seems relevant for this thread:

I do not believe that I have EVER heard such mealy mouthed opinions expressed by anyone associated with the Roman Catholic Church! For the Roman Catholic Church did almost exactly the same thing for decades in North America, by simply moving depraved priests to another parish, instead of either removing them or counselling them! The very Vatican is what's in need of redemption!!! All you people cannot keep hiding any part of your part in this extreme denial of the responsibility of a group where such depravity has been going on for decades, if not centuries. You people make me sick, and if Dante were still alive a new "circle of Hell" would be created just for such "priests".

What could be expected from a population which voted NO on the Lisbon treaty and then when told it must vote again voted YES because it hadn't gotten it right the first time? Bowing to arbitrary authority takes precedence over the assertion of the independent right to dissent. This is exactly the fertile soil in which tyranny thrives, tyranny of the church, tryanny of government, tyranny of a superstate. IMO the same could have happened anywhere in Europe and sooner or later we may learn that it has. At least in America. some of the perps have gone to jail and the church is on the financial rocks paying out money to victims. Even so, it seems to me they got off far too lightly.

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Er, Chris, perhaps you should read the report. It very much *was* the hierarchy of this cult that was covering up criminal activity and perverting the course of justice. It's not that everyone else was innocent - quite the reverse. The Irish state and police also colluded in the perversion of justice. It's not even a matter of him who is without sin casting the first stone. It is a matter of justice. Some senior members of this organisation really need to go to jail.

Everyone interviewed on Sunday Sequence expressed "shock." But why should there be shock when the principle of absolute power corrupting absolutely proves itself every single time? To accept this principle would force re-examination not only of the basic structure of the church but of society itself...such as government, and of course of the EU.

I love this doctrine of "mental reservation" that few outside of the church evidently ever heard of. License to lie through your teeth and claim that you have told the truth by what you have withheld from the reason for your lie. When is a lie not a lie? When it is told with "mental reservation." OK, now ask the archbishop if god exists. If he says yes, ask him if he thinks he will go to hell when he dies. Ask him if he thinks he should go to hell. Ask him if he thinks saying a few words to a priest asking for forgiveness will keep him out of hell. Then ask him if he has told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth without mental reservation. If he says yes, he is still lying by using mental reservation.

I noticed at the beginning that an archbishop offered an apology. I didn't hear an offer of money to the victims though, nor to the families of the victims who committed suicide as a result of the crimes against them. How much faith the parishoners really have will become evident if and when the flock comes to understand that the money they put in the collection plate is being used to make up for and supplement the money paid out for the commission of crimes by the church.

There are many examples of the nexus of political and religious power creating an effective theocracy both locally and on a national scale. One example is the Mormon Church and the governments of Salt Lake City and the State of Utah at least in the past. Another is the current state of Iran. In both cases there was gross sexual abuse on a massive scale. But I think the people of Ireland should start looking at other areas of corruption such as the co-mingling and misappropriation of state and church monies.

At one point in the broadcast it seemed to me the priest said that removing pedophile priests from the priesthood or the church is not a good idea because if they stayed within the church someone could keep an eye on them. Isn't that the job of their parole officers?

Apparently calling call Nell something unflattering is enough to get you moderated these days. The absolute power of the Ö÷²¥´óÐã - the organisation doing its best to hide the Climategate story.

Marcus - glad you mentioned money. One of the reasons why Catholic cases in America are so high profile and other cases (public schools) are so low is the perception that there's money to be had from the Church.

My point about Nell attacking Martin is that she was attacking the wrong man - and despite the horrors of the Murphy report, there is no evidence of the sort of systemmic organised cover-up that people have been claiming. You can say there was all you like but no evidence of it in the report or anywhere else.

You have Enda Kenny calling for all bishops included in the report to resign and newspapers publishing photos of them all. I'm not going to try and defend them all because several are clearly guilty (though in legal terms, probably not of a crime as we'll see in due course), but do take one example - Bishop Martin Drennan of Galway. Take the time to read the case of Fr Guido - page 617 of part two of the report. It's a good example of a difficult case - obvious homosexual issues, Gardai and HSE involved, Bishop Drennan behaved entirely appropriately and yet the press still list him as if he were involved in a cover up. It's simply unjust and unfair. And before someone starts ranting at me about the bad ones, I know, I can read. But someone has to stand up for the better priests in this country.

mccamel;

I was waiting for the cleric to use the word witchhunt. If there is nothing to hide, then you'd think the church would welcome a complete investigation to clear its name. Why would an innocent man (or church) act guilty? What else has it got to hide? So far, the scope of the investigation has been very limited. We'll see how far it will go before the Church can surpress it...if it can surpress it. Who knows what kind of dirt will be uncovered if the entire rug is pulled back. The Pope and his minions have virtually sneered at the whole thing. At the start of the broadcast, there were allusions to criminal investigtions and possible prosecutions. We'll see how far that process goes. Perhaps it is hasty to jump the gun and draw conclusions just yet but I can't help thinking that when you find cockroaches in a kitchen, for every one you see, there are dozens more hiding inside the walls hoping someone will turn out the lights and leave.

Marcus - when did I mention witchhunt?

Did you read the references to Bishop Drennan who was exonerated by the Report but still smeared by the press, that's the point I was making. He hasn't acted guiltily at all.

But here's the thing, if there are no prosecutions, you'll say - oh, more cover up, suppression, cosy deals - reality of course will be the DPP will discover early on that a)laws weren't broken, or b) insufficient evidence. That's just the reality of the law.

What evidence have you to support the statement that the Pope "virtually sneered at the whole thing"?

I'm all for pulling back the rug and examining the 95% plus of child abuse which has no connection with the clergy. How will you address the mothers who covered up for husbands, the sisters who let their own sisters be abused, the older homosexual men who routinely engage in consensual but illegal sex with minors, the older teenagers who have sex with younger teenagers, aided and abetted by school nurses, doctors and family planning clinics who issue contraception, even though they know with absolute certainty that the law is being broken. None of that suits the agenda of course so there will be no investigation.

McCamel;

"...How will you address the mothers who covered up for husbands, the sisters who let their own sisters be abused...."

I won't. But that is not the subject at hand. The crimes and coverup by the chruch is. One difference is that of all of those others you mentioned, none had the degree of political power the church had. None could control the reins of government to steer not just investigation but even suspicion away from itself. In this regard, the crime of the church was unique because its extent required a level of corruption and collusion that was not possible by any of the others either individually or in combination. It goes to the core of what government is about, of what its function is. That is why it must be thoroughly investigated and the conclusions have to change the very nature of government itself or it is a sure bet that something like it will happen again in the future.

"What evidence have you that the Pope virtually sneered at the whole thing?"

The 2001 Instruction - De Delicibus Gravioribus, signed by Ratzinger and sent to every Bishop and Cardinal in which they were ordered to refer abuse allegations to his office where they could be buried.

The refusal of the Vatican to take any action against at least 19 US Bishops who were found to have covered up clergy sexual abuse, who simply moved abuser priests to other parishes where they abused again.

The ongoing scandal of Benedict's appointment of Cardinal Law to one of the most pretigious basilicas in Rome and the appalling decision to allow this monster to be main celebrant at a funeral Mass for JPII on the steps of St Peter's, in the full knowledge that it was to be televised throughout the world. The 'message' being given to Bishops was all too obvious, your silence will be rewarded and to Hell with the victims.

Over twenty five years of his tenure as head of the CDF he was the one man who could have done something to put a stop to this crime against humanity. He chose to do nothing to protect children, instead he worked tirelessly to silence the victims and their families, to bury evidence, to protect the 'image' of the Church and to discredit any priest or Bishop who refused to remain silent about this evil, even threatening them with excommunication.

The question should be reframed - What would it take to convince YOU that the Pope has sneered at the whole thing?

Answer - nothing!

The reason being that if you were to be convinced of the Pope's complicity in all of this, your world view, your "faith" would come crashing down around you.

Its called denial.

I wonder when the moderators will rule on my comment 26 which remains in "limbo".

Ah right, Marcus, not the subject in hand - one can imagine a bishop making that statement when someone tried to raise the issue of abuse - "thank you Fr Smith, but we're here to talk about the new translation of Eucharistic Prayer 4".

There is massive child abuse in this country, in fact all countries, aided and abetted by organs of the State - as I said - every time contracteption is given out to minors with no follow up. It's a huge cover up and if you don't agree then you're as guilty as any priest or bishop.

It's an entirely valid point to make that the focus on the Catholic Church allows others to get away. It doesnt' make what happened in the Church any less significant, but it is an important point to raise.

Smithy - it's ludicrous to suggest the 2001 instruction was an attempt at cover up - it was quite the reverse - forcing to dioceses to spill the beans so Rome could get a handle on the extent. I think there were problems with the decision, mainly that they didn't expect the numbers and weren't equipped to deal with it - which is why many of the cases are returned to national tribunals for examinination.

I have mixed views on Law and his position and I share some of your concerns.

McCamel, how clever some people think they are at trying to turn the truth on its head where black is white and wrong is right. I was born and raised almost within spitting distance of Madison Avenue where the most clever liars in the world were eternally inventive at finding new ways to garner the world's money for their efforts. The transparency of the lies of the catholic church by comparison are pathetic, they'd be thrown out by even the smallest least sophisticated of ad agencies as just not credible to anyone.

So what are the strategies lawyers use for deflecting the accusing finger of guilt when the evidence against their client is so overwhelming? Change the subject? Attack the accuser. Plead insanity. I like that last one the best. You can play to the sympathies of the jury that you had a mental lapse (aka reservation) and didn't know right from wrong. The only problem in this case is that you have to find a jury where none of the members are parents.

Well now that you mention parents, Marcus, a question for you. What did parents who brought suspicions to bishops expect to get? I think they wanted extra-judicial action, not wanting to bring their children to the police and go that route. that may have been due to deference to the hierarchy or the simple desire to limit the exposure of their child. I know I wouldn't really be keen to have my kid questioned by police, in court etc if I could avoid it. I'm not for a moment blaming them, but that remains an issue. People want "something done about Fr X".

Can I ask a question - what would you do today if an adult told you in confidence that they had been abused, say by their uncle. You suggest they go to the police. They don't want to - it would kill their mother and destroy the family, they just needed to tell someone. So what do you do now? I'm really not trying to make some argumentative point and not saying all or many of the situations were like that (though some were). Do you just go straight to the police and report the conversation?

"The only problem in this case is that you have to find a jury where none of the members are parents."

Marcus, you underestimate the power you are dealing with here. MCC is a parent. The power the Church wields over such people, their complete adherence to the Church actually overrides their inclinations as a parent.

MCC

Stop changing facts to enable you to continue to avoid an unpallatable truth. Ratzinger was forcing Dioceses to spill the beans so that the full extent of the problem could be known??????

Yeh, and Herod really wanted the three wise men to tell him where the Saviour was born so that he could go and 'worship!'

He threatened Bishops, priests and victims to keep silent and report only to him - reminding them that they were under threat of excommunication if they did not comply.

The extent of the problem was already known, thats the whole point!!! It was covered up.

You may wish to continue to delude yourself, but dont present your delusions as 'fact.'

You also claim on your website that the only way this problem will be resolved is by a return to holiness, etc.. yawn, etc..

Wrong again. This problem can be resolved very quickly, not by holiness, but by JUSTICE. You'll be hearing quite alot on the subject from a variety of Prophets at your Advent Masses, thats if your listening and not too preoccupied with the priest's wardrobe.

I also notice the less aggressive tone of your last words to me. They cut no ice. MCC, I have read your web site, all of it. You stand condemned by it. You are no friend of the abused, or of the gospel, and no amount of back-tracking or toning down will alter that fact. The Dublin report must have been somewhat inconvenient for you.

I hope that you and people like you are cringing.

Well Smithy, single minded and vitriolic as ever. I don't think any of my posts on this topic have been aggressive, unless you count my remarks about Nell which have now been censored - if only it were as easy to shut her up.

I think unfortunately the inclination of parents to protect their own children can contribute to the problem. As I said in my earlier post, my inclination would be to avoid my child going through the justice system. My wife's inclination would involve baseball bats. Many parents would put aside the thought of future actions in favour of protecting their own.

Not sure why you would be afraid of holiness - it's hardly in opposition to justice. As I said before, people are going to be disappointed with the justice system - they might not like it but no bishop could be convicted of anything on the strength of this report. I'm not saying they didn't do things that were wrong or wicked, often stupid, dangerously so - but if you think the DPP is going to turn this into prosecutions I think you're mistaken. Perhaps it will be useful to some people bringing civil cases.

As for my cringing, well as the report says, this is what happens when people abandon the practice of canon law, which of course liberals like you espouse routinely. and when you tell that sexual morality has changed.

Is it not the case that officials of the Roman Catholic Church in Dublin, knowingly withheld evidence that could have led to the conviction of an individual or indiviauals who had sexually abused children? Is it not also the case that they were assisted in this by various elements of the State, including an Garda Síochána?

"The Dublin Archdiocese's pre-occupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the Church, and the preservation of its assets. All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities. The Archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules and did its best to avoid any application of the law of the State."

Compare this to comments from CONSERVATIVE Catholic commentators in the States...
"Because child sex abuse in the priesthood has proved to be so widespread, it has actually become easier for the Church to handle cases quietly. As the shock of contemplating a man in a Roman collar molesting a youth has diminished, and because legal documents related to such matters are more often than not sealed, new lawsuits get little attention from the press even when they are not quickly settled.
So where does that leave the good priests? They, too, have been tarnished by the unearthing of a sexual underworld among men of the cloth. Many say they now no longer feel comfortable simply giving hugs to children, and some say they worry that a single allegation against a priest, even if it's unfounded, can derail a career. And in many dioceses, priests say they have grown to expect the bishop to pay less attention to their concerns than to those of the Church's lawyers and insurance companies."




This is not a case of liberal versus conservative Catholics. Many conservative Catholics in the US are bewildered and infuriated with the Bishop's response to allegations.

GV

John Smith
"Pederasy, the urge to dominate vulnerable children, is a natural result stemming from the chain of command in the structure of the Church. It is a chain of command which is about 'control', from the Pope at the top, to the Cardinals, Bishops, priests, congregants - to the very children."

I don't know if you agree with those sentiments, but they seem very dubious to me.

As I understand it, there are roughly 1000 priests in the Dublin Diocese at any one time. Around 100-150 face allegations. Before I explain the abuse through the hypothesis that the Pope causes it, I'd like the following questions answered.

1) How many Priests were in the area over the 35 years? In other words, what proportion of Priests face allegations?
2) How many accusations come from those who were pre-pubescent, compared to pubescents? (Not that it makes much moral difference, but I'd like to know what group was most at risk.)
3) Are there allegations of abuse of adults over the same time period?

Sexual predators are more likely to be found in jobs that give access to 'prey'. Like all criminals they seek opportunity. So the answers to those questions need to be compared to results from comparable groups. Teachers, youth workers, that sort of thing.
And then we need to ask if the "don't ask, don't tell" culture created an environment in which predators would wish to remain. You're more likely to find muggers on poorly lit streets, near bars at closing time. That doesn't mean that bars and poor lighting cause mugging. It's a case of predators seeking out prey. Supply and demand.

Of course, none of this helps the Bishops. If there was a "don't ask, don't tell policy", then by my hypothesis the Bishops were ringing a dinner bell.

GV

Chris

What exactly is your point? I'm a little confused. Parents are to blame? The Gardai? The Priests? Who exactly?

Do you at least agree that a very conservative Catholic could be outraged at the conduct of the Bishops'? And that would be a consistent position for a conservative catholic to take?

GV

Another quote from ultra conservative Catholic Rod Dreher


"The Church doesn't need new policies; we need new men. I don't mean that literally, though clearly in many cases, such as Boston's, a new bishop is required. I mean we need many of these bishops to be converted, truly changed in their minds and hearts. Any new policy voted on in Dallas is only as good as the willingness of each individual bishop to enforce it. There is nothing — nothing — in the church's rules that would have prevented a bishop from sacking a John Geoghan or a Paul Shanley at the first sign of trouble. The problem isn't a lack of law; the problem is a lack of leadership, a lack of virtue, a lack of humility, a lack, even, of faith. That is not something two days in Dallas will likely impart to any of the American bishops, who have shown so little of it till now."

Now Smithy could have written that. So can we stop pretending that this is an anti-Catholic smear, McC?

Read the whole article



GV

Sorry to bang on about this, but another Dreher quote...

"I told him that I remain Catholic not because I had any faith in the bishops' handling of the sex-abuse matters, but because I believe that Catholicism is true. As well-taught Catholics believe, the truth or falsity of the Catholic faith does not stand or fall on the moral worth of individual priests or bishops. It was startling, however, to learn that a good bishop seemed to be suggesting that faith in the hierarchy is the sine qua non of being Catholic. The Catholic faith cannot exist without bishops and clergy, but the bishops and clergy are not the whole of the Catholic faith."

A warning: Dreher is to the right of Genghis Khan. Maybe even Dick Cheney.

Graham you are spot on in stating that conservative catholics are also horrified by child abuse. and conservative catholics understand more than liberal catholics how rubbish bishops can be at dealing with anything - most of them have failed to deal with any abuse in the church, be it of children, liturgical law or education - someone will now start typing "are you saying child abuse is the same as liturgical abuse?". No, not at all, but the mentality of inaction, failure to lead, lack of courage is a trait which has been prevalent among Irish bishops over the last forty years at least.

The problem with commentary on this is that there are agendas. Once you get past the child abuse and cover up is evil, then within the Church you have conservatives blaming liberal policies and useless bishops. liberals blaming conservative policies, including celibacy, and useless bishops. And then you get some blatantly opportunistic anti-catholic commentators from outside who are only interested in child abuse if priests are involved, you know the sort who will defend Roman Polanski, or think it's perfectly ok for GPs and clinics to hand out contraception to minors - which I notice no one is interested in addressing.

When I try to say things are more complex than "bishops bad, everyone else good" I'm accused of defending molesters. William's recent post about Bishop Murray is a good example of something - he mentions the parents were good Catholics and they wanted it sorted in house so to speak. What I'm saying is that that made it very difficult. Of course you would expect Murray to have done more, of course. But he wasn't a detective. he asks a molester a question and gets a lie.

Reading some of Smithy's comments you'd think I would be only too thrilled to have my children molested if it was for the good of the Church.