Ö÷²¥´óÐã Television programmesÌý permalink
Stop Cutting our Girls.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by heterodox (U14291406) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
This programme deals with the disgusting practice of female genital mutilation and is broadcast on Wednesday 11th March at 10pm on Ö÷²¥´óÐã3Ìý
According to the preview, more than 100,000 girls have suffered this form of violation in this country and 60,000 more are currently at risk. That first figure, moreover, has to be set against my belief that there has not been one successful prosecution for this illegal procedure.
It is high time that the false sensibilities that protect this butchery were stripped away and maybe this programme will do something to achieve that but I wish it had been scheduled on Ö÷²¥´óÐã1 rather than in the relative obscurity of Ö÷²¥´óÐã3. -
Message 2
Posted by jennyj (U15939066) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
We need to bring back mandatory, routine, termly health check by nurses/doctors in schools.
Then we need to prosecute parents whose children are mutilated. Any parents who are not citizens of this country should be immediately deported, with no right of return.
We are just so SPINELESS in this country about protecting our children. -
Message 3
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Agreed about the scheduling
I'm not sure I can watch this, though - it's such a horrible harrowing subject. Although I would like to know what "justications" for this practice ar given by those that carry it out. -
Message 4
Posted by The Man Who Watched Telly (U15436784) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Stop cutting boys as well, nobody has the right to mutilate anyone's body. Medical reasons only, time to ban all barbaric religious practises.
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Message 5
Posted by wolfie (U15842015) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
do you think the same about those parents whos sons are circumcised...or is that deemed acceptable...
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Message 6
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
No, I don't like circmcision either - although that does not have the life-changing horrificness of FGM. It's why I asked about "justifications". Circumcision is largely cultural now, but there were practical reasons eons ago.
Regardless, if people want to do this to their bodies for cultural reasons then fine (though I will never underatand it) - but nobody should be making these decisions for others. -
Message 7
Posted by Charley Farley (U13513932) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Nothing can be done about FGM and we all know why.
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Message 8
Posted by taunted (U16179202) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Not really "our girls" are they, and it's supposed to be illegal in the West.
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Message 9
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Our girls in that they're British and a lot of the "cutting" is happening in this country.
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Message 10
Posted by taunted (U16179202) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
British or not they are not our girls or your girls. I do agree its an abhorrent act though.
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Message 11
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Who cares who's girls they are??
The idea of the title is to create a little solidarity for these poor girls. Semantics really has no place here
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Message 12
Posted by GZ (U5310554) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
We need to bring back mandatory, routine, termly health check by nurses/doctors in schools.
Then we need to prosecute parents whose children are mutilated. Any parents who are not citizens of this country should be immediately deported, with no right of return.
We are just so SPINELESS in this country about protecting our children.Ìý If the parents are deported are the children to be deported with them or separated from their families to remain in the UK and placed in foster care? -
Message 13
Posted by heterodox (U14291406) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
We need to bring back mandatory, routine, termly health check by nurses/doctors in schools.Ìý
I agree with that and I think that schools generally should be more aware and active. To this end, i have written to the two girls schools in this area and asked that the topic of FGM to be included in any social education programme that they may have and drawn their attention to the various videos on this topic that are available.
The programme is on a bit late but the school could encourage girls of a suitable age to watch it with their parents.
Parents could be told that the school is watching closely for any sign that this illegal practice is contemplated or has been carried out and any suspicions that they have will be brought to the attention of the police.
I don't think that the merits or otherwise of male circumcision should be allowed to confuse the issue at this stage. The mutilation of young girls is such a great evil that we should end that before thinking about anything else. -
Message 14
Posted by Turner (U14992668) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
We need to bring back mandatory, routine, termly health check by nurses/doctors in schools.
Then we need to prosecute parents whose children are mutilated. Any parents who are not citizens of this country should be immediately deported, with no right of return.
We are just so SPINELESS in this country about protecting our children.Ìý
Yeah because forcibly subjecting a little girl to a gynaecological examination against hers and her family's will, and then deporting her parents is going to do wonders for her physical and emotional wellbeing
JennyJ, it is absolutely clear from everything you post on this and other women issue related subjects that their safety and welfare is the least of your concerns.
Forgive me for not mincing my words, but I'm heartily sick of people using women's bodies as a battleground for their own political convictions, and their prejudiced, petty, intolerant little worldviews. -
Message 15
Posted by Turner (U14992668) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
We need to bring back mandatory, routine, termly health check by nurses/doctors in schools.Ìý
I agree with that and I think that schools generally should be more aware and active. To this end, i have written to the two girls schools in this area and asked that the topic of FGM to be included in any social education programme that they may have and drawn their attention to the various videos on this topic that are available.
The programme is on a bit late but the school could encourage girls of a suitable age to watch it with their parents.
Parents could be told that the school is watching closely for any sign that this illegal practice is contemplated or has been carried out and any suspicions that they have will be brought to the attention of the police.
I don't think that the merits or otherwise of male circumcision should be allowed to confuse the issue at this stage. The mutilation of young girls is such a great evil that we should end that before thinking about anything else.Ìý
I agree with everything you said Heterodox, except for the forced physical examinations - which would just add trauma to trauma. And that's not even considering issues of impracticality, legality, and cost.
This is a cultural issue and needs to be dealt with accordingly. Law enforcement obviously has a role to play in this, but *education* should be the principal approach. -
Message 16
Posted by brian spooner (U14259156) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
And few if any prosecutions-Why ?
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Message 17
Posted by weesnowball (U5509747) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Not really "our girls" are they, and it's supposed to be illegal in the West.Ìý I agree. When was such a barbaric practice sanctioned by Christianity? We are, or at least, used to be a Christian country.
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Message 18
Posted by Procyon (U16040304) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
The bizarre ritual of male circumcision for cultural / religious reasons is a daily occurrence in our society. It is high time this was addressed too. The rights of the child are paramount. The parents need to drag their belief system out of the Bronze Age.
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Message 19
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Not really "our girls" are they, and it's supposed to be illegal in the West.Ìý I agree. When was such a barbaric practice sanctioned by Christianity? We are, or at least, used to be a Christian country.Ìý Is it sanctioned by Christianity??
As to forced inspections at school - no, definitely not. But school nurses should be very aware in the issues around FGM, and should be trained in counselling and given the knowledge of what to do if they suspect FGM has occurred/is about to occur. -
Message 20
Posted by GZ (U5310554) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
We need to bring back mandatory, routine, termly health check by nurses/doctors in schools.Ìý
I agree with that and I think that schools generally should be more aware and active. To this end, i have written to the two girls schools in this area and asked that the topic of FGM to be included in any social education programme that they may have and drawn their attention to the various videos on this topic that are available.
The programme is on a bit late but the school could encourage girls of a suitable age to watch it with their parents.
Parents could be told that the school is watching closely for any sign that this illegal practice is contemplated or has been carried out and any suspicions that they have will be brought to the attention of the police.
I don't think that the merits or otherwise of male circumcision should be allowed to confuse the issue at this stage. The mutilation of young girls is such a great evil that we should end that before thinking about anything else.Ìý
I agree with everything you said Heterodox, except for the forced physical examinations - which would just add trauma to trauma. And that's not even considering issues of impracticality, legality, and cost.
This is a cultural issue and needs to be dealt with accordingly. Law enforcement obviously has a role to play in this, but *education* should be the principal approach.Ìý Not to mention which the question of what happens to the girls after their parents are deported as I asked earlier.
Do these girls lose their family, their siblings and go into foster care?
Are their siblings also removed from the custody of the deported parents and also put into foster care?
If the stats noted earlier in the thread were correct and 100,000 girls a year in the UK are having this act carried out on them, then you are talking 100,000 additional court trials per year to convict the parents, 100,000 additional immigration hearings to deport the parents - no doubt some sort of appeals process.
Then there is the issue of 100,000 new children who suddenly become "orphans", wards of the state after being separated from their deported parents.
The incredible costs of all the additional court and immigration proceedings - plus the costs of that many more wards of the state is staggering.
Unless Jenny was suggesting that the children be deported along with their parents.
Any way you look at it I dont see how deporting the parents and creating tens of thousands of orphans is the answer. -
Message 21
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
No, I don't think the majority of people think that is even remotely likely, feasible or right.
Really not the issue at hand. -
Message 22
Posted by Myshkin (U16115560) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Almost all of the girls who are mutilated in this way are part of families who belong to a particular religious ideological group who are off limits on this board...which makes discussion of this subject just one of a number of issues which it is impossible to debate on this forum without risking triangulation.
Which attitude provides fertile ground for misinformation and misunderstnding.
Were this not the case it would be an easy matter to show that FGM is nowhere advocated in the scriptures of that religious ideology. Further that those who advocate FGM are doing so with no other justification than ancient ( preIslamic ) tradition.
Education is the answer. -
Message 23
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
A quick Google would disbuse you of the notion that FGM is rooted in Islam.
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Message 24
Posted by Myshkin (U16115560) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
A quick Google would disbuse you of the notion that FGM is rooted in Islam.
Ìý I have just said that it isn't . And that if free debate was allowed concerning Islam it would be possible to sift what was and what wasn't rooted in Islam. -
Message 25
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Forgive my confusion, but you did open with this:
Almost all of the girls who are mutilated in this way are part of families who belong to a particular religious ideological group who are off limits on this boardÌý
I don't think of Islam when I think of FGM. Culturally, it seems to come from some African countries more than the Middle East. -
Message 26
Posted by Myshkin (U16115560) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Forgive my confusion, but you did open with this:
Almost all of the girls who are mutilated in this way are part of families who belong to a particular religious ideological group who are off limits on this boardÌý
I don't think of Islam when I think of FGM. Culturally, it seems to come from some African countries more than the Middle East.Ìý Perhaps Turner instead of selective quoting ( the death odf much internet discussion ) you might care to read what I actually wrote. -
Message 27
Posted by Myshkin (U16115560) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
The majority of those in the UK who advocate FGM are Muslim ( easily checked fact )..despite the fact that that FGM is nowhere advocated in Islam...
FGM predates Islam by millennia.
Those Muslims who come from cultures that do not have a tradition of FGM find it as abhorant as most of us do. -
Message 28
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Maybe you should check who you're addressing
I don't see how mentioning Islam contributes to the discussion. -
Message 29
Posted by Maxibaby (U14151672) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I don't care if it is rooted in Islam, Paganism, or any other .....ism. It is against the law in this country, and the law is not being enforced. How will it be stopped when a blind eye is being turned? Why are we not prosecuting the butchers who are carrying out this abomination if it is being done here?
With the report published yesterday about abuse in Oxford, it was admitted that a blind eye was turned, leading to horrendous suffering by hundreds of young people. It seems to me that when it comes to FGM, we are doing exactly the same, with the same result - suffering by the vulnerable. -
Message 30
Posted by Turner (U14992668) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Maybe you should check who you're addressingÌý
Cricket, he just can't stop thinking about me, poor thing... can't blame him really, he's only human -
Message 31
Posted by Turner (U14992668) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Hello Maxibaby! Fancy seeing you on this thread...
The two of us have discussed this ad nauseam in the past, but hey, for old times' sake...
I don't care if it is rooted in Islam, Paganism, or any other .....ism. It is against the law in this country, and the law is not being enforced. How will it be stopped when a blind eye is being turned? Ìý
Who says 'an eye is being turned'?
Why are we not prosecuting the butchers who are carrying out this abomination if it is being done here?Ìý
Police incompetence, difficulty in building up a case because of the nature of the crime, lack of funds and investment, general apathy.
With the report published yesterday about abuse in Oxford, it was admitted that a blind eye was turnedÌý
Again, who admitted that? Seems to me you've fallen for the excuses peddled by those whose collective failures to address the problem led to it in the first place.
leading to horrendous suffering by hundreds of young people. It seems to me that when it comes to FGM, we are doing exactly the same, with the same result - suffering by the vulnerable.Ìý
Depends on what you mean by 'the same'
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Message 32
Posted by Myshkin (U16115560) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I am not sure whether to apologise to C.A .Tucker or to Turner so i will apologise to both..
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Message 33
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
No need! Just funny
. 
(Which was not something I was expecting to write on this thread) -
Message 34
Posted by Bonny (U14396592) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
As I understand it......Female Genital Mutilation involves removal of the clitoris. This is all I know. I could be wrong. I don't know. However male circumcision involves only the foreskin meaning no sensory deprivation.
If I am right, a young woman has her main sensory point removed which is of course cruel.
I speak from ignorance here. Nature should NEVER be interfered with. It is there for a purpose. Religious and other rationale ruled out... What exactly is the point, and why?
I imagine this is what the proposed programme seeks to convey? -
Message 35
Posted by Turner (U14992668) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I am not sure whether to apologise to C.A .Tucker or to Turner so i will apologise to both..
Ìý
You're forgiven - but don't do it again 
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Message 36
Posted by Guv-nor (U7476305) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
One case is too many, but some sources for the numbers.
Here is the Programme page
Starting
"Three million girls are at risk of female genital mutilation (FGM) across Africa every year and, believe it or not, a further 65,000 are at risk here in the UK."
This recent (12 February 2015) news article, which concerns a law change so that professionals who fail to report cases of female genital mutilation (FGM) in children could face the sack under a new law for England and Wales.
Contains
"It is estimated that 130,000 women living in Britain have been subjected to FGM."
This last reviewed 27/06/2014 from the NHS.
Gives figures
"It has been estimated that over 20,000 girls under the age of 15 are at risk of female genital mutilation (FGM) in the UK each year, and that 66,000 women in the UK are living with the consequences of FGM. However, the true extent is unknown, due to the "hidden" nature of the crime."
Links from those pages will probably tell people more than they want to know. -
Message 37
Posted by Maxibaby (U14151672) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Hello Maxibaby! Fancy seeing you on this thread...
The two of us have discussed this ad nauseam in the past, but hey, for old times' sake...
I don't care if it is rooted in Islam, Paganism, or any other .....ism. It is against the law in this country, and the law is not being enforced. How will it be stopped when a blind eye is being turned? Ìý
Who says 'an eye is being turned'?
Why are we not prosecuting the butchers who are carrying out this abomination if it is being done here?Ìý
Police incompetence, difficulty in building up a case because of the nature of the crime, lack of funds and investment, general apathy.
With the report published yesterday about abuse in Oxford, it was admitted that a blind eye was turnedÌý
Again, who admitted that? Seems to me you've fallen for the excuses peddled by those whose collective failures to address the problem led to it in the first place.
leading to horrendous suffering by hundreds of young people. It seems to me that when it comes to FGM, we are doing exactly the same, with the same result - suffering by the vulnerable.Ìý
Depends on what you mean by 'the same'Ìý
The figures quoted on here, which would appear to have some foundation if they are in the review of the programme, are 100,000 cases already carried out, and 60,000 at risk. This procedure is against the law in this country, and if we are talking about 100,000 breaches of the law, then it would seem that either a blind eye is being turned, or no-one is investigating, or the police and the CPS are ignoring lawbreakers. Otherwise, there would be prosecutions, of which there seem to have been none. If you accept that this is against the law, then do you not think the law should be enforced? Or should we only pursue the enforcement of laws that are easy to enforce, and which won't upset anyone?
It's often difficult to build a case against rapists. Are you saying that because something is difficult, it should be allowed to go unpunished under the law and should be ignored?
Who admitted a blind eye was turned in Oxford?
The lady who compiled the report and answered questions on all the News programmes on which she was interviewed yesterday following its publication. Also the Chief Constable, or maybe Asst. Chief Constable - I'm not sure of her rank - who was outlining some of the reasons she had apologized unreservedly to some of those abused.
What I mean by the same? I mean that we are turning a blind eye to lawbreaking in the same way that a blind eye was turned in Oxford, probably Rotherham, and others yet to surface. -
Message 38
Posted by wolfie (U15842015) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I thought there had been one prosecution...and it failed....
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Message 39
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Yes. A case against a doctor was dismissed.
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Message 40
Posted by jennyj (U15939066) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Almost all of the girls who are mutilated in this way are part of families who belong to a particular religious ideological group who are off limits on this board...which makes discussion of this subject just one of a number of issues which it is impossible to debate on this forum without risking triangulation.
Which attitude provides fertile ground for misinformation and misunderstnding.
Were this not the case it would be an easy matter to show that FGM is nowhere advocated in the scriptures of that religious ideology. Further that those who advocate FGM are doing so with no other justification than ancient ( preIslamic ) tradition.
Education is the answer.Ìý 'Education is the answer'
Hmm, so may be we should say the same about any other crime. We need to 'educate' people not to murder someone, steal, kidnap, etc etc etc????
We have the laws, all we need is the will to prosecute, and punish those who break them by mutilating children.
As for deportation, well, since that would be applied to families whose daughters are already mutiliated, they aren't going to benefit are they ,by being kept in this country - though just deporting the parents and keeping the children in care would protect the children from further horrors.
Why would any parent NOT want their children to have health checks? -
Message 41
Posted by heterodox (U14291406) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I agree with everything you said Heterodox, except for the forced physical examinations....Ìý
I did not mention forced physical examinations but the inference must be drawn because evidence of this procedure having taking place must be obtained for criminal charges to be laid and perhaps remedial measures taken. Children have been medically examined at school for a very long time and many older posters will remember the routine visits of the 'nit-nurse'.
My only hope is that this vile practice can be ended by whatever legal means are available. Offenders should be punished according to law and the whole question of deportation should not arise. People who commit this offence should face a mandatory five year prison sentence and serve at least three.
Most of these mutilations occur abroad and so carriers like airlines should be asked to advise the authorities when they suspect that children are travelling for this purpose. Failure to do so could result in being charged as an accessory. -
Message 42
Posted by Myshkin (U16115560) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Almost all of the girls who are mutilated in this way are part of families who belong to a particular religious ideological group who are off limits on this board...which makes discussion of this subject just one of a number of issues which it is impossible to debate on this forum without risking triangulation.
Which attitude provides fertile ground for misinformation and misunderstnding.
Were this not the case it would be an easy matter to show that FGM is nowhere advocated in the scriptures of that religious ideology. Further that those who advocate FGM are doing so with no other justification than ancient ( preIslamic ) tradition.
Education is the answer.Ìý 'Education is the answer'
Hmm, so may be we should say the same about any other crime. We need to 'educate' people not to murder someone, steal, kidnap, etc etc etc????
We have the laws, all we need is the will to prosecute, and punish those who break them by mutilating children.
As for deportation, well, since that would be applied to families whose daughters are already mutiliated, they aren't going to benefit are they ,by being kept in this country - though just deporting the parents and keeping the children in care would protect the children from further horrors.
Why would any parent NOT want their children to have health checks?Ìý You can't draw that analogy. NO culture sees murder or theft or kidnap of its own as virtuous per se.
But those who practice FGM see it as not only normal but essential.
They have also erroneously seen it as a religious rite.
The only answer is education. To demonstrate that it confers no physical benefit...quite the reverse..and is not required by any religious group. -
Message 43
Posted by Myshkin (U16115560) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I agree with everything you said Heterodox, except for the forced physical examinations....Ìý
I did not mention forced physical examinations but the inference must be drawn because evidence of this procedure having taking place must be obtained for criminal charges to be laid and perhaps remedial measures taken. Children have been medically examined at school for a very long time and many older posters will remember the routine visits of the 'nit-nurse'.
My only hope is that this vile practice can be ended by whatever legal means are available. Offenders should be punished according to law and the whole question of deportation should not arise. People who commit this offence should face a mandatory five year prison sentence and serve at least three.
Most of these mutilations occur abroad and so carriers like airlines should be asked to advise the authorities when they suspect that children are travelling for this purpose. Failure to do so could result in being charged as an accessory.Ìý For reasons I have outlined above there are many who would see a jail sentence as a small price to pay for what they see as as an essential practice.
Education is what is needed. -
Message 44
Posted by DelusionsOfAdequacy (U15449583) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
As I understand it......Female Genital Mutilation involves removal of the clitoris. This is all I know. I could be wrong. I don't know. However male circumcision involves only the foreskin meaning no sensory deprivation.
If I am right, a young woman has her main sensory point removed which is of course cruel. Ìý
You are correct - except that sometimes both the labia minora and labia majora are also removed and everything sewn up leaving only a small aperture for urine and menstrual flow. On marriage the girl must be opened up to enable intercourse. In extreme cases it is seen as a test of the groom's virility that he do this himself.
And the whole purpose of the process, whatever form it takes, is to deprive the girl of sexual pleasure so that she is not tempted to indulge in sexual activity. -
Message 45
Posted by Maxibaby (U14151672) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I agree with everything you said Heterodox, except for the forced physical examinations....Ìý
I did not mention forced physical examinations but the inference must be drawn because evidence of this procedure having taking place must be obtained for criminal charges to be laid and perhaps remedial measures taken. Children have been medically examined at school for a very long time and many older posters will remember the routine visits of the 'nit-nurse'.
My only hope is that this vile practice can be ended by whatever legal means are available. Offenders should be punished according to law and the whole question of deportation should not arise. People who commit this offence should face a mandatory five year prison sentence and serve at least three.
Most of these mutilations occur abroad and so carriers like airlines should be asked to advise the authorities when they suspect that children are travelling for this purpose. Failure to do so could result in being charged as an accessory.Ìý I don't see why examination by a nurse should be considered to be trauma for the young women. When I was at school, we were routinely examined, and yes, I do remember the 'nit lady'. As far as I am aware, these examinations didn't ruin the lives of anyone. FGM ruins the lives of many.
Fear of discovery and prosecution might just make those who arrange for their children to be mutilated to stop and think about the consequences for themselves, not just their children. A few years in jail as mandatory might have quite an effect. We cannot enforce the law without finding out where it is being transgressed.
Evidence of the practice will surface when gynaecological examinations are made later in life. Doctors should have to report victims, and the police should prosecute those who arranged it. -
Message 46
Posted by Maxibaby (U14151672) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I agree with everything you said Heterodox, except for the forced physical examinations....Ìý
I did not mention forced physical examinations but the inference must be drawn because evidence of this procedure having taking place must be obtained for criminal charges to be laid and perhaps remedial measures taken. Children have been medically examined at school for a very long time and many older posters will remember the routine visits of the 'nit-nurse'.
My only hope is that this vile practice can be ended by whatever legal means are available. Offenders should be punished according to law and the whole question of deportation should not arise. People who commit this offence should face a mandatory five year prison sentence and serve at least three.
Most of these mutilations occur abroad and so carriers like airlines should be asked to advise the authorities when they suspect that children are travelling for this purpose. Failure to do so could result in being charged as an accessory.Ìý I don't see why examination by a nurse should be considered to be trauma for the young women. When I was at school, we were routinely examined, and yes, I do remember the 'nit lady'. As far as I am aware, these examinations didn't ruin the lives of anyone. FGM ruins the lives of many.
Fear of discovery and prosecution might just make those who arrange for their children to be mutilated to stop and think about the consequences for themselves, not just their children. A few years in jail as mandatory might have quite an effect. We cannot enforce the law without finding out where it is being transgressed.
Evidence of the practice will surface when gynaecological examinations are made later in life. Doctors should have to report victims, and the police should prosecute those who arranged it.Ìý Further to my last point, it's occurred to me that we are prosecuting the likes of Gary Glitter and Rolf Harris 40 years on from when the offences were committed. We should treat parents who have inflicted FGM on their children in the same way. Whenever it is discovered - even if it be later in life due to medical examinations - It is equally a criminal offence, and should be treated as such. -
Message 47
Posted by GZ (U5310554) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
Almost all of the girls who are mutilated in this way are part of families who belong to a particular religious ideological group who are off limits on this board...which makes discussion of this subject just one of a number of issues which it is impossible to debate on this forum without risking triangulation.
Which attitude provides fertile ground for misinformation and misunderstnding.
Were this not the case it would be an easy matter to show that FGM is nowhere advocated in the scriptures of that religious ideology. Further that those who advocate FGM are doing so with no other justification than ancient ( preIslamic ) tradition.
Education is the answer.Ìý 'Education is the answer'
Hmm, so may be we should say the same about any other crime. We need to 'educate' people not to murder someone, steal, kidnap, etc etc etc????
We have the laws, all we need is the will to prosecute, and punish those who break them by mutilating children.
As for deportation, well, since that would be applied to families whose daughters are already mutiliated, they aren't going to benefit are they ,by being kept in this country - though just deporting the parents and keeping the children in care would protect the children from further horrors.
Why would any parent NOT want their children to have health checks?Ìý You don't think that taking a young girl who has just experienced a physical and mental trauma would be further traumatized by being taken away from her parents, her siblings and put into a group home while she awaited adoption or placement in foster care? -
Message 48
Posted by Drsdaughter (U12521046) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I have read about the subject and in some areas it is believed that the clitoris represents masculinity and that its removal makes a female all female. Likewise the foreskin on a boy represents femininity thus it has to be removed so that the male is all male. It is a ghastly subject indeed .It is engrained in Somalian and Sudanese culture in particular and anthropologically ,the practices probably date back centuries from the tribal rituals of Africa. Who knows how many females died at the hands of the shamans and witch doctors? I cannot comprehend such a thing but it will not be eradicated easily. There is a piece about this in "The Penguin Dictionary of Symbols" which is quite a weighty book. It is a weird and fascinating read. Astonishing really. I was horrifed when I read about the reasoning behind FGM.
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Message 49
Posted by GZ (U5310554) ** on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I was circumcised at birth, not for any cultural or religious reason, it was simply standard hospital procedure at the time.
I've never experienced any sort of trauma from it, no loss of sensitivity that I am aware of, nor any medical complications.
I dont personally feel that I was mulitated in any way.
Every woman who I have been intimate with has stated that they prefer circumcised men to no circumcised men.
That is simply my personal feelings about my personal life experiences as a man who has been circumcised at birth.
I fully respect and appreciate people having a different viewpoint on male circumcision.
I dont think that it is directly comparible to female circumcision which is done later into adolescence and for different reasons. -
Message 50
Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Wednesday, 4th March 2015
I agree with everything you said Heterodox, except for the forced physical examinations....Ìý
I did not mention forced physical examinations but the inference must be drawn because evidence of this procedure having taking place must be obtained for criminal charges to be laid and perhaps remedial measures taken. Children have been medically examined at school for a very long time and many older posters will remember the routine visits of the 'nit-nurse'.
My only hope is that this vile practice can be ended by whatever legal means are available. Offenders should be punished according to law and the whole question of deportation should not arise. People who commit this offence should face a mandatory five year prison sentence and serve at least three.
Most of these mutilations occur abroad and so carriers like airlines should be asked to advise the authorities when they suspect that children are travelling for this purpose. Failure to do so could result in being charged as an accessory.Ìý I don't see why examination by a nurse should be considered to be trauma for the young women. When I was at school, we were routinely examined, and yes, I do remember the 'nit lady'. As far as I am aware, these examinations didn't ruin the lives of anyone. FGM ruins the lives of many.
Fear of discovery and prosecution might just make those who arrange for their children to be mutilated to stop and think about the consequences for themselves, not just their children. A few years in jail as mandatory might have quite an effect. We cannot enforce the law without finding out where it is being transgressed.
Evidence of the practice will surface when gynaecological examinations are made later in life. Doctors should have to report victims, and the police should prosecute those who arranged it.Ìý Are you suggesting all teenage girls should have to routinely be intimately examined? That's not comparable to the nit lady!
As a former teenage girl I can say that I would have found that horrific and traumatising.
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